• Premature resignation in a probably not-lost position

    From Eli Kesef@21:1/5 to Paul Epstein on Sun Apr 11 05:56:08 2021
    On Sunday, April 11, 2021 at 3:43:11 PM UTC+3, Paul Epstein wrote:
    Ken Blake told me about this one in another newsgroup. https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044405

    Apparently Stockfish finds the final position almost equal but humans probably prefer Black.

    Bs"d

    GM's have resigned in winning positions.

    If you don't see it than you don't see it.

    Happens.

    https://tinyurl.com/chessblind

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  • From Paul Epstein@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 11 05:43:10 2021
    Ken Blake told me about this one in another newsgroup. https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044405

    Apparently Stockfish finds the final position almost equal but humans
    probably prefer Black.

    Paul

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  • From Ken Blake@21:1/5 to Paul Epstein on Sun Apr 11 09:20:54 2021
    On 4/11/2021 5:43 AM, Paul Epstein wrote:
    Ken Blake told me about this one in another newsgroup. https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044405

    Apparently Stockfish finds the final position almost equal but humans probably prefer Black.


    Yes, as I said in that other newgroup, I completely missed 21. h4, which
    I should have played.


    --
    Ken

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  • From Eli Kesef@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 12 00:57:21 2021
    Bs"d

    This is a famous game in which black resigned in won position. When he resigned he had the killer move Bg1: https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1099222
    He just didn't see it....

    https://tinyurl.com/krabee

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  • From Ken Blake@21:1/5 to Eli Kesef on Mon Apr 12 11:55:06 2021
    On 4/12/2021 12:57 AM, Eli Kesef wrote:
    Bs"d

    This is a famous game in which black resigned in won position. When he resigned he had the killer move Bg1: https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1099222
    He just didn't see it....




    Not an easy move to see.



    --
    Ken

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  • From The Horny Goat@21:1/5 to pepstein5@gmail.com on Sat Apr 17 15:25:07 2021
    On Sun, 11 Apr 2021 05:43:10 -0700 (PDT), Paul Epstein
    <pepstein5@gmail.com> wrote:

    Ken Blake told me about this one in another newsgroup. >https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044405

    Apparently Stockfish finds the final position almost equal but humans >probably prefer Black.

    There are lots of positions that are objectively known to be one
    result or another but incredibly easy to mess up and get a non-optimal
    result.

    K+2N vs K+P is one
    K+2N vs K (e.g. no pawns) is another with a completely different
    theoretical result from the first.

    Even K+B+N vs K is often snafu'd with a result going over 50 moves -
    not an optimal result but common enough. I certainly wouldn't want to
    do that ending for $50 per game at speed chess speeds. Especially in a
    bar which is where those kind of bets most commonly get offered!

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  • From Eli Kesef@21:1/5 to The Horny Goat on Sat Apr 17 16:18:01 2021
    On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 1:25:11 AM UTC+3, The Horny Goat wrote:
    On Sun, 11 Apr 2021 05:43:10 -0700 (PDT), Paul Epstein
    <peps...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Ken Blake told me about this one in another newsgroup. >https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044405

    Apparently Stockfish finds the final position almost equal but humans >probably prefer Black.
    There are lots of positions that are objectively known to be one
    result or another but incredibly easy to mess up and get a non-optimal result.

    K+2N vs K+P is one
    K+2N vs K (e.g. no pawns) is another with a completely different
    theoretical result from the first.

    Even K+B+N vs K is often snafu'd with a result going over 50 moves -
    not an optimal result but common enough. I certainly wouldn't want to
    do that ending for $50 per game at speed chess speeds. Especially in a
    bar which is where those kind of bets most commonly get offered!

    Bs"d

    I think I get K+B+N vs K in about 80% of the time right, but I need time to think about it. I wouldn't wanna do it in blitz.

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  • From The Horny Goat@21:1/5 to nastyhorsefork@gmail.com on Sat Apr 17 20:47:35 2021
    On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 16:18:01 -0700 (PDT), Eli Kesef
    <nastyhorsefork@gmail.com> wrote:

    Even K+B+N vs K is often snafu'd with a result going over 50 moves -
    not an optimal result but common enough. I certainly wouldn't want to
    do that ending for $50 per game at speed chess speeds. Especially in a
    bar which is where those kind of bets most commonly get offered!

    Bs"d

    I think I get K+B+N vs K in about 80% of the time right, but I need time to think about it. I wouldn't wanna do it in blitz.

    Well that's my point - I wouldn't want to try to do it for serious $$$

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  • From Eli Kesef@21:1/5 to The Horny Goat on Sat Apr 17 22:26:18 2021
    On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 6:47:38 AM UTC+3, The Horny Goat wrote:
    On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 16:18:01 -0700 (PDT), Eli Kesef
    <nastyho...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Even K+B+N vs K is often snafu'd with a result going over 50 moves -
    not an optimal result but common enough. I certainly wouldn't want to
    do that ending for $50 per game at speed chess speeds. Especially in a
    bar which is where those kind of bets most commonly get offered!

    Bs"d

    I think I get K+B+N vs K in about 80% of the time right, but I need time to think about it. I wouldn't wanna do it in blitz.
    Well that's my point - I wouldn't want to try to do it for serious $$$

    Bs"d

    I messed up not to long ago, an endgame with K+Q against K+N. Couldn't mate him. I checked it out afterward on youtube, and it is really easy, now it's no problem, but that game was messed up, a draw in stead of a win.

    I also messed up not too long ago a K+B+N against K alone.

    What bothers me is an endgame with K+Q against K+R. That's a mean one. I have to work on that one.

    https://tinyurl.com/GR-Endgame

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  • From The Horny Goat@21:1/5 to nastyhorsefork@gmail.com on Sun Apr 18 16:12:58 2021
    On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 22:26:18 -0700 (PDT), Eli Kesef
    <nastyhorsefork@gmail.com> wrote:

    I messed up not to long ago, an endgame with K+Q against K+N. Couldn't mate him. I checked it out afterward on youtube, and it is really easy, now it's no problem, but that game was messed up, a draw in stead of a win.

    I also messed up not too long ago a K+B+N against K alone.

    What bothers me is an endgame with K+Q against K+R. That's a mean one. I have to work on that one.

    K+Q vs K+N is a terrible one to mess up.

    Particularly if the clock is a factor I wouldn't fault anybody who
    mucked up K+B+N vs K

    There are a few K+Q vs K+R that can be held but very few though there
    are plenty of 'fortress' type positions in K+Q vs K+R+P that are drawn particularly with pawns on the b and g files

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  • From Paul Epstein@21:1/5 to The Horny Goat on Wed Apr 21 15:36:04 2021
    On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 12:13:02 AM UTC+1, The Horny Goat wrote:
    On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 22:26:18 -0700 (PDT), Eli Kesef
    <nastyho...@gmail.com> wrote:

    I messed up not to long ago, an endgame with K+Q against K+N. Couldn't mate him. I checked it out afterward on youtube, and it is really easy, now it's no problem, but that game was messed up, a draw in stead of a win.

    I also messed up not too long ago a K+B+N against K alone.

    What bothers me is an endgame with K+Q against K+R. That's a mean one. I have to work on that one.

    K+Q vs K+N is a terrible one to mess up.

    Particularly if the clock is a factor I wouldn't fault anybody who
    mucked up K+B+N vs K

    There are a few K+Q vs K+R that can be held but very few though there
    are plenty of 'fortress' type positions in K+Q vs K+R+P that are drawn particularly with pawns on the b and g files

    Yes, K + Q v K + R is almost always a win.
    John Nunn explains exactly how to win in Secrets of Pawnless Endings which is based on endgame databases.
    Endgame databases changed the practical status of this ending.
    Before databases, it was thought that the queen wins easily and that all that is needed is competent play and
    the ability to spot two or three move checking sequences leading to a deadly pin or fork.
    However, now it is known that the win is highly technical and extremely difficult.
    If the player with the rook starts in a reasonable position and knows the theory, and the player with the queen doesn't know
    the theory, it's likely to be a draw.
    Nowadays GMs can win this easily because they've all read Nunn's books.

    Paul

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