XPost: rec.games.frp.dnd

gmkeros@gmail.com wrote:

Source: https://www.enworld.org/threads/d-d-historian-benn-riggs-on-gary-gygax-sexism.705192

Well, let's look at a specific example of what Peterson and Tondro
describe as “misogyny “ from 1975's Greyhawk. Greyhawk was the first supplement ever produced for D&D. Written by Gary Gygax and Rob Kuntz,
the same Rob Kuntz who claimed slander above, it was a crucial text in
the history of the game. For example, it debuted the thief character
class. It also gave the game new dragons, among them the King of Lawful Dragons and the Queen of Chaotic Dragons. The male dragon is good, and
female dragon is evil. (See Appendix 1 below for more.)

I quit reading at this point because the author clearly hasn't a clue about Babylonian mythology and therefore isn't credible.

--
Let's go Brandon!

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XPost: rec.games.frp.dnd

On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 10:52:48 +0200, kyonshi <gmkeros@gmail.com> wrote:

Why then has the response been outrage from various corners of the
internet?

Because those are the only people who posted: the perpetually outraged.

It is a huge sample bias. Most people are fine with it. Those who are
mildly bothered aren't posting.

But even a thousand people can make credible noise on the Internet. If
you get to 50,000 or a million, then it feels incontrovertible. A quick
Google says 50 million people play D&D. Even a million people is a 2%
sliver of the community, and it's usually down to much, much fewer. You
have to use scientific notation to record the 1,000 people. 50,000
people, which is more than enough volume to seem credible, is easy math:
0.1% of the community. Wow. BFD.

In short, there is a cadre of people who live on the Internet and will
run there and complain about literally anything, because they have little
power in their lives to effect any change that matters around them. So
they cast their line deep and far and go pissing in every fishing pond
they can find. I know. I used to be one of them. It helps you cope when
times are rough.

Facts: Gygax was a dude in the 70s. It's been 54 years. Any "dude from
the 70s" is going to look racist and sexist by today's standards. Of
course he was sexist. So was Malcolm X.

Result: Now we don't have "Ki" points anymore, we have "Martial
Discipline" points, which is flavorless and dull and a mouthful. But God
forbid Hasbro get dinged for cultural appropriation by the self-appointed thought police.

It's high time we stopped taking any of them seriously.

---

My 2 cents about Gygax.

Gygax was a racist, a narcissist, and a sexist. He took all the credit
for D&D when it was Arneson who wrote Chainmail, and the community that
grew and wrote the game. He compiled a slew of community notes into a
messy book and called it Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. Then he took
credit for it. He was an *editor*, but the book says "by Gary Gygax" on
the cover. I posit that he was a *bad* editor. Have you seen the
pummeling and grappling tables in the 1e DMs guide?

Play-wise, he had a reputation for being mercilessly unfair to his
players and his style of DMing, adopted by many, was the impetus for a
legion of rules lawyers. That eventually got us to 3rd edition where
there is a rule for almost everything. D&D became a game for rules
lawyers. Skip 4th. 5th ed finally got it back to a sane game where the
rules facilitate play, not dictate play.

But who cares? It's a great hobby and Gygax was instrumental in its
creation and promotion. He almost sunk TSR by 1

XPost: rec.games.frp.dnd

On 09/07/2024 18:40, Zaghadka wrote:

On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 10:52:48 +0200, kyonshi <gmkeros@gmail.com> wrote:

Why then has the response been outrage from various corners of the
internet?

Because those are the only people who posted: the perpetually outraged.

It is a huge sample bias. Most people are fine with it. Those who are
mildly bothered aren't posting.

But even a thousand people can make credible noise on the Internet. If
you get to 50,000 or a million, then it feels incontrovertible. A quick Google says 50 million people play D&D. Even a million people is a 2%
sliver of the community, and it's usually down to much, much fewer. You
have to use scientific notation to record the 1,000 people. 50,000
people, which is more than enough volume to seem credible, is easy math:
0.1% of the community. Wow. BFD.

In short, there is a cadre of people who live on the Internet and will
run there and complain about literally anything, because they have little power in their lives to effect any change that matters around them. So
they cast their line deep and far and go pissing in every fishing pond
they can find. I know. I used to be one of them. It helps you cope when
times are rough.

Facts: Gygax was a dude in the 70s. It's been 54 years. Any "dude from
the 70s" is going to look racist and sexist by today's standards. Of
course he was sexist. So was Malcolm X.

Result: Now we don't have "Ki" points anymore, we have "Martial
Discipline" points, which is flavorless and dull and a mouthful. But God forbid Hasbro get dinged for cultural appropriation by the self-appointed thought police.

It's high time we stopped taking any of them seriously.

---

My 2 cents about Gygax.

Gygax was a racist, a narcissist, and a sexist. He took all the credit
for D&D when it was Arneson who wrote Chainmail, and the community that
grew and wrote the game. He compiled a slew of community notes into a
messy book and called it Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. Then he took
credit for it. He was an *editor*, but the book says "by Gary Gygax" on
the cover. I posit that he was a *bad* editor. Have you seen the
pummeling and grappling tables in the 1e DMs guide?

Play-wise, he had a reputation for being mercilessly unfair to his
players and his style of DMing, adopted by many, was the impetus for a
legion of rules lawyers. That eventually got us to 3rd edition where
there is a rule for almost everything. D&D became a game for rules
lawyers. Skip 4th. 5th ed finally got it back to a sane game where the
rules facilitate play, not dictate play.

But who cares? It's a great hobby and Gygax was instrumental in its
creation and promotion. He almost sunk TSR by 1990, but his earnest (see
what I did there?) contributions should be enough for anyone. There's no earthly reason to judge him or the work by such standards.

Arneson didn't write Chainmail, his name isn't in the cover. It was
written by Gary Gygax and Jeff Perren. Arneson did use Chainmail for his
own Blackmoor games. Arneson did write with Gygax the original D&D, not Chainmail. About Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, Arneson in the same time
period did wrote the "First Fantasy Campaign" for Judges Guild, his
version of the game, and it was a lot worst than the AD&D books. A lot
more of obtuse rules, procedures and very bad writing.

And about the reputation of Gygax's games you are wrong. Most people
which did play with him says his games were very fair. Only in jokes
games like the original Tomb Of Horror he was unfair. Everyone who thing
the 5ed is the ruleset which bring sane game back is a moron. 5ed is
from marvel type superhero fantasy games with videogame logic. Happily
we have the OSR to counter act all of this

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XPost: rec.games.frp.dnd

On 7/9/2024 2:40 PM, Zaghadka wrote:

On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 10:52:48 +0200, kyonshi <gmkeros@gmail.com> wrote:

Why then has the response been outrage from various corners of the
internet?

Because those are the only people who posted: the perpetually outraged.

It is a huge sample bias. Most people are fine with it. Those who are
mildly bothered aren't posting.

Yes, I don't really get involved in outrage either. I was mildly
bothered by it in the early 80's, really just the female weak stats in
the 1e PHB. I had brought at couple girls into the game (before my, or
their awakening) but they didn't stick with it.

Of course I played a lot of Champions int the 1e days too, and never saw
a girl playing that either.

I didn't see a single woman playing D&D in other groups of AD&D ever,
even 2e which didn't seem to have the misogyny, at least until I brought another into it in the 2e days from playing M:tG (a small number there,
but more than AD&D)... and she became my GF (didn't work out.)

I saw a lot of girls & women playing Vtm when it was out in the AD&D
days. I was invited, but they seemed a bit TOO into it to the point of
most of them (and the few guys) dressing up as vampires all the time.

I saw a good number of girls & women in the 3e days (maybe 20% varying),
but from what I know all of them had been brought into it by their D&D
dads, or significant others as well.

--
-Justisaur

ø-ø
(\_/)\
`-'\ `--.___,
¶¬'\( ,_.-'
\\
^'

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