This is a followup to the thread on rat induced bark damage to a lemon tree.

Is there a preferred strategy to dealing with severe bark damage on
a tree with an otherwise-healthy root system?

Obviously the girdled limbs are goners and can be taken off. It's
less clear what to do with limbs that have a strip of bark and some
surviving branches.

I'm inclined to do nothing but cut off obviously dying sections, and
that none too fast.

Is there any benefit to pre-emptively removing marginal sections,
perhaps to encourage new bud growth (if that's even possible)?

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

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On 4/29/2024 7:42 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:

This is a followup to the thread on rat induced bark damage to a lemon tree.

Is there a preferred strategy to dealing with severe bark damage on
a tree with an otherwise-healthy root system?

Obviously the girdled limbs are goners and can be taken off. It's
less clear what to do with limbs that have a strip of bark and some
surviving branches.

I'm inclined to do nothing but cut off obviously dying sections, and
that none too fast.

Is there any benefit to pre-emptively removing marginal sections,
perhaps to encourage new bud growth (if that's even possible)?

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

When removing limbs that are not entirely dead, be very careful. You
must maintain sufficient foliage to shade the trunk and major limbs.
Citrus bark is very easily damaged by direct sun.

If you cannot keep sufficient foliage, either loosely wrap the exposed
wood with paper or paint it with whitewash.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see <http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html>
Gardening diary at <http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary>

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<bp@www.zefox.net> wrote:
...

Is there any benefit to pre-emptively removing marginal sections,
perhaps to encourage new bud growth (if that's even possible)?

if you've lost half the bark then remove some of
the branches to balance out the demand upon what
remains of the bark.


songbird

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David E. Ross <nobody@nowhere.invalid> wrote:

When removing limbs that are not entirely dead, be very careful. You
must maintain sufficient foliage to shade the trunk and major limbs.
Citrus bark is very easily damaged by direct sun.

It turns out that identifying "entirely dead" limbs will take
some time. I think there are one or two that are still pushing
flowers and buds with maybe 10% remaining bark at the isthmus.
Likely they'll die, but they're not dead yet.

I've painted much of the trunk with some white latex housepaint
cut with water.

For the most part the tree is holding existing fruit and is still
setting new fruit and flowers, though slowly. Should I remove
both, in an effort to promote vegetative growth? The only goal
feasible seems to be saving the root system.

Photos are still at http://www.zefox.net/~rprohask/lemon_damage/
but I've not updated them yet. The weather is getting warm, and
that will change things.

The ecology of the yard was drastically changed by removal of
a sickly mulberry tree. That, and the painting, seems to have
slowed both rats and squirrels.

Thanks for writing,

bob prohaska

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<bp@www.zefox.net> wrote:
...

The ecology of the yard was drastically changed by removal of
a sickly mulberry tree. That, and the painting, seems to have
slowed both rats and squirrels.

i'm glad it seems to have calmed down.

i'm wondering if providing a source of water a bit away
from and perhaps even on the complete opposite side of the
yard may decoy some animals from that tree or area, but
that is an aside.


songbird

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songbird <songbird@anthive.com> wrote:

i'm wondering if providing a source of water a bit away
from and perhaps even on the complete opposite side of the
yard may decoy some animals from that tree or area, but
that is an aside.

There is in fact a "squirrel bath" not far away in the front
yard. I added it after finding chew damage on driplines in the
front yard. Never saw the culprit and assumed it was a squirrel
seeking water. After the bath went in (filled by a drip emitter
supplied by the shrub irrigation valve) the problem largely went
away. The attack on the lemon tree came "out of left field" several
years later. It's clearly a rat, so maybe I was mistaken in blaming
squirrels for the initial problem.


Now that I've painted the lemon bark white it's very easy to
see new damage. So far, only one small (half-inch) divot has
been chewed. Rather as if a sample was taken, and not liked.

The lemon tree is showing baffling resistance to damage. New buds
and leaves are appearing in a few cases where I'm fairly sure there's
a complete break in the bark between growth and roots. The last couple
of days touched 90F, I'd expect what's going to live vs die to become
clear fairly soon.

Earlier in the spring some adventitious growth appeared on the lower
trunk, which I didn't want and removed. Now more would be good, and none
has appeared. That's worrisome.

Thanks for reading!

bob prohaska

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On 5/16/2024 6:47 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:

songbird <songbird@anthive.com> wrote:

i'm wondering if providing a source of water a bit away
from and perhaps even on the complete opposite side of the
yard may decoy some animals from that tree or area, but
that is an aside.

There is in fact a "squirrel bath" not far away in the front
yard. I added it after finding chew damage on driplines in the
front yard. Never saw the culprit and assumed it was a squirrel
seeking water. After the bath went in (filled by a drip emitter
supplied by the shrub irrigation valve) the problem largely went
away. The attack on the lemon tree came "out of left field" several
years later. It's clearly a rat, so maybe I was mistaken in blaming
squirrels for the initial problem.

Now that I've painted the lemon bark white it's very easy to
see new damage. So far, only one small (half-inch) divot has
been chewed. Rather as if a sample was taken, and not liked.

The lemon tree is showing baffling resistance to damage. New buds
and leaves are appearing in a few cases where I'm fairly sure there's
a complete break in the bark between growth and roots. The last couple
of days touched 90F, I'd expect what's going to live vs die to become
clear fairly soon.

Earlier in the spring some adventitious growth appeared on the lower
trunk, which I didn't want and removed. Now more would be good, and none
has appeared. That's worrisome.

Thanks for reading!

bob prohaska

Yes, sometimes citrus can recover from serious damage.

I have a dwarf lemon and a dwarf kumquat in very large flower pots.
They are irrigated by drip emitters tied into my automatic (clock
driven) garden sprinklers. Several years ago, we had a very wet winter;
so I shut off the sprinkler system. Then we had a short period of
frost. While the garden soil remained quite moist, the potting mix for
my citrus apparently got dry, which resulted in frost damage to both
trees (but strangely not to the potted orange). The lemon and kumquat
both lost ALL of their leaves. I thought they were dead.

When the owner of the tree service I use came to determine the cost of
pruning my ash, oak, and zelkova, I showed him the lemon and kumquat.
He showed me that a little scratch on the bark indicated the branches
were still green and alive.

The kumquat recovered completely and continued to give me good crops of
fruit. The lemon recovered, but some major limbs have long stretches of
dead bark with the live bark only halfway around. I recently picked
over a dozen lemons, from which I got over a quart of lemon juice.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see <http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html>
Gardening diary at <http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary>

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<bp@www.zefox.net> wrote:

songbird <songbird@anthive.com> wrote:

i'm wondering if providing a source of water a bit away
from and perhaps even on the complete opposite side of the
yard may decoy some animals from that tree or area, but
that is an aside.

There is in fact a "squirrel bath" not far away in the front
yard. I added it after finding chew damage on driplines in the
front yard. Never saw the culprit and assumed it was a squirrel
seeking water. After the bath went in (filled by a drip emitter
supplied by the shrub irrigation valve) the problem largely went
away. The attack on the lemon tree came "out of left field" several
years later. It's clearly a rat, so maybe I was mistaken in blaming
squirrels for the initial problem.

Now that I've painted the lemon bark white it's very easy to
see new damage. So far, only one small (half-inch) divot has
been chewed. Rather as if a sample was taken, and not liked.

The lemon tree is showing baffling resistance to damage. New buds
and leaves are appearing in a few cases where I'm fairly sure there's
a complete break in the bark between growth and roots. The last couple
of days touched 90F, I'd expect what's going to live vs die to become
clear fairly soon.

Earlier in the spring some adventitious growth appeared on the lower
trunk, which I didn't want and removed. Now more would be good, and
none has appeared. That's worrisome.

Thanks for reading!

bob prohaska

If you are near a creek, it could be a nutria. Also a small furry type
but known to go for fruit trees.

Virginia Beach, being 'tidewater' has a bazillion creeks and small
rivers flowing all through it. I couldn't find a good map but this
gives a bit of an idea.

<https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://gisgeography.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Virginia-Beach-Road-Map.jpg&imgrefurl=https://gisgeography.com/virginia-beach-map/&h=1941&w=1500&tbnid=VPWt5GsmfG_vWM&q=map+of+virginia+beach+waterways+and+creeks&
tbnh=150&tbnw=116&usg=AI4_-kRXcoHDX9I2_muGoGSeMwHNa6Vr5A&vet=1&docid=-YO77GDcHog9OM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiE-v_ztZeGAxX2SDABHejrAWIQ9QF6BAgKEAY>

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cshenk <cshenk@virginia-beach.net> wrote:

If you are near a creek, it could be a nutria. Also a small furry type
but known to go for fruit trees.

Virginia Beach, being 'tidewater' has a bazillion creeks and small
rivers flowing all through it. I couldn't find a good map but this
gives a bit of an idea.

<https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://gisgeography.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Virginia-Beach-Road-Map.jpg&imgrefurl=https://gisgeography.com/virginia-beach-map/&h=1941&w=1500&tbnid=VPWt5GsmfG_vWM&q=map+of+virginia+beach+waterways+and+creeks&

tbnh=150&tbnw=116&usg=AI4_-kRXcoHDX9I2_muGoGSeMwHNa6Vr5A&vet=1&docid=-YO77GDcHog9OM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiE-v_ztZeGAxX2SDABHejrAWIQ9QF6BAgKEAY>

Nutria isn't an absolute impossibility, as they are known to be
in the Sacramento-San Joaquin River drainage. But it would be a
very great surprise: Nutria aren't credited with being climbers,
and all the damage (so far!) is at least three feet above ground.

Given that I've seen at least two rats in the tree and I'm half a
mile from the nearest watercourse (a drainage channel, at that)
it's hard to blame nutria without better evidence.

I've added three new views of the tree to http://www.zefox.net/~rprohask/lemon_damage/
in case anybody is curious. At this point the
tree is still opening new flowers.

The files are big and the host, a Raspberry Pi 3, is
slow, so please be patient when loading the images....

Thanks for writing!

bob prohaska

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songbird <songbird@anthive.com> wrote:

<bp@www.zefox.net> wrote:
...

Is there any benefit to pre-emptively removing marginal sections,
perhaps to encourage new bud growth (if that's even possible)?

if you've lost half the bark then remove some of
the branches to balance out the demand upon what
remains of the bark.

It's becoming very unclear how to decide which branches are goners
and which should be kept.

There are a few examples of well-hydrated new growth on branches
that are clearly girdled on the rootward side. One in particular
is obviously girdled an inch below and a foot above. There's no
fruit connected by the remaining bark, from which water and sugars
might be extracted.

Anybody got an idea what's going on? I thought all transport both
up and down a truck was carried in the bark: No bark, no transport,
branch dies. It looks as if there's at least some water transport
upward in layers beneath the peelable bark.

Thanks for reading, and any ideas as to what's going on.

bob prohaska

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On Mon, 27 May 2024 16:21:44 -0000 (UTC)
<bp@www.zefox.net> wrote:

<snip>

Anybody got an idea what's going on? I thought all transport both
up and down a truck was carried in the bark: No bark, no transport,
branch dies. It looks as if there's at least some water transport
upward in layers beneath the peelable bark.

Very good but techy article here that may help your understanding:

https://treenet.org/resource/ring-barking-and-girdling-how-much-vascular-connection-do-you-need-between-roots-and-crown/

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

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Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid> wrote:

Very good but techy article here that may help your understanding:

https://treenet.org/resource/ring-barking-and-girdling-how-much-vascular-connection-do-you-need-between-roots-and-crown/

Indeed, it helps enormously. The crown is still getting water from the
roots, but is unable to pay its "water bill". Clearly I should have
removed all the ring barked branches immediately.

There will be some branches left, but far fewer than it appeared.

Thanks very much for writing!

bob prohaska

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On Mon, 27 May 2024 20:15:36 -0000 (UTC)
<bp@www.zefox.net> wrote:

Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid> wrote:

Very good but techy article here that may help your understanding:

https://treenet.org/resource/ring-barking-and-girdling-how-much-vascular-connection-do-you-need-between-roots-and-crown/

Indeed, it helps enormously. The crown is still getting water from the
roots, but is unable to pay its "water bill". Clearly I should have
removed all the ring barked branches immediately.

There will be some branches left, but far fewer than it appeared.

<snip>

Think I would harvest the possibly larger than normal fruit on suspect
branches first if you haven't already and then do the deed...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

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Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid> wrote:

Think I would harvest the possibly larger than normal fruit on suspect branches first if you haven't already and then do the deed...

Doing it now, wishing I'd started sooner. In several places fairly big
(3" circumference) limbs have less than a one-inch strip of bark
connecting roots to crown.

In the article you cited at https://treenet.org/resource/ring-barking-and-girdling-how-much-vascular-connection-do-you-need-between-roots-and-crown/
it is said:"...as little as 10% vascular connection can be enough for trees to remain healthy, if the tree is growing in ideal situations and is kept free of pests and diseases (Moore, 2011)."

I really hope that's true of lemons!

Kinda wishing I had a set of armored gloves, the damn tree bites!

bob prohaska

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On Mon, 27 May 2024 22:00:54 -0000 (UTC)
<bp@www.zefox.net> wrote:

<snip>

Kinda wishing I had a set of armored gloves, the damn tree bites!

A bit warmish to wear... Welding gloves are well armored for such tasks
and can sometimes be bought reasonably. Like HF stores. Even thin
leather gloves work quite well. I do battle with Autumn Olives and
Multiflora Rose on a regular basis😬

https://www.harborfreight.com/3-pair-14-inch-split-cowhide-welding-gloves-488.html

https://www.harborfreight.com/full-grain-cowhide-leather-work-gloves-large-61459.html

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

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On Tue, 28 May 2024 08:43:09 -0400
Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid> wrote:

On Mon, 27 May 2024 22:00:54 -0000 (UTC)
<bp@www.zefox.net> wrote:

<snip>

Kinda wishing I had a set of armored gloves, the damn tree bites!

A bit warmish to wear... Welding gloves are well armored for such tasks
and can sometimes be bought reasonably. Like HF stores. Even thin
leather gloves work quite well. I do battle with Autumn Olives and
Multiflora Rose on a regular basis😬

https://www.harborfreight.com/3-pair-14-inch-split-cowhide-welding-gloves-488.html

https://www.harborfreight.com/full-grain-cowhide-leather-work-gloves-large-61459.html

I should note that I used those Harbor Freight items as examples that
look like the gloves I use. I don't own "those" items and after posting
I noticed the reviews for them aren't so good🙁

I'm always on the lookout for deals on gloves like this along with a
lot of other items. If I see some on clearance/sale for a great price I
buy them...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

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Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 28 May 2024 08:43:09 -0400
Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid> wrote:

On Mon, 27 May 2024 22:00:54 -0000 (UTC)
<bp@www.zefox.net> wrote:

<snip>

Kinda wishing I had a set of armored gloves, the damn tree bites!

A bit warmish to wear... Welding gloves are well armored for such tasks
and can sometimes be bought reasonably. Like HF stores. Even thin
leather gloves work quite well. I do battle with Autumn Olives and >>Multiflora Rose on a regular basis😬

I'm always on the lookout for deals on gloves like this along with a
lot of other items. If I see some on clearance/sale for a great price I
buy them...

The tree is very unevenly endowed with thorns. Much of it is thornless, allowing me to become incautious, parts are heavily spiked.

I've added three photos at
http://www.zefox.net/~rprohask/lemon_damage/

showing the pruning so far. It's clear now that I've allowed the
tree to get far too big. Just how much more to remove is open to
question. The adventitous growth tends to cross, up and in. It's
hard to decide how much I can remove. Any thoughts are welcome.

Thanks for writing!

bob prohaska

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On Tue, 28 May 2024 18:08:44 -0000 (UTC)
<bp@www.zefox.net> wrote:

<snip>

showing the pruning so far. It's clear now that I've allowed the
tree to get far too big. Just how much more to remove is open to
question. The adventitous growth tends to cross, up and in. It's
hard to decide how much I can remove. Any thoughts are welcome.

I'm in a very different climate here in SW Michigan so just some
thoughts...

I'd remove everything that has been completely girdled and has no hope.
Then wait and see what is going on with it next year or so. You can
always cut out more then.

Keep doing what ever else you've done in the past (if anything) that
has allowed it to get to where it is now😐

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

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Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 28 May 2024 18:08:44 -0000 (UTC)
<bp@www.zefox.net> wrote:

<snip>

showing the pruning so far. It's clear now that I've allowed the
tree to get far too big. Just how much more to remove is open to
question. The adventitous growth tends to cross, up and in. It's
hard to decide how much I can remove. Any thoughts are welcome.

I'm in a very different climate here in SW Michigan so just some
thoughts...

I'd remove everything that has been completely girdled and has no hope.
Then wait and see what is going on with it next year or so. You can
always cut out more then.

Removing what's fully girdled/damaged left the tree very far out of
balance and still too big. The tree is already rebounding vigorously,
pushing new growth so fast it's visible in a few hours. I'm less
worried now about killing it and more worried about keeping it under
control. Reminds me of "Little Shop of Horrors"....

Keep doing what ever else you've done in the past (if anything) that
has allowed it to get to where it is now😐

Apart from a little city water and peeing on it regularly, nothing 8-)

Thanks for writing!

bob prohaska

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In case anybody's curious I've added a couple photos showing what I
belive to be the completed pruning job. It's quite a haircut....

Now the problem is to control the regrowth to prevent, or at least
slow down, the canopy's return to utter, impenetrable, chaos.

Thanks to all for reading and sharing wisdom!

bob prohaska

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bp@www.zefox.net wrote:

Now the problem is to control the regrowth to prevent, or at least
slow down, the canopy's return to utter, impenetrable, chaos.

The recovery of the tree is proceeding apace, in rather disorderly fasion. Photos are:
http://www.zefox.net/~rprohask/lemon_damage/trunk_recovery.jpg and http://www.zefox.net/~rprohask/lemon_damage/crown_recovery.jpg

Does anybody have thoughts on when to start removing obviously
inappropriate growth? It seems pretty clear that sprouts coming
up near the root crown should come off. Buds pushing out higher
on the scaffold are a tougher call.

Right now the root structure is appropriate to a tree about
fifteen feet tall and maybe ten feet wide. That needs a certain
amount of photosynthesis to remain healthy, likely far more than
is supplied by the existing leaf area. That suggests leaving all
growth alone initially and then progressively removing unwanted
branches after some delay.

Anybody got a hint what an appropriate delay might be? Weeks, months?
Maybe a year? Seems best to minimize the tree's wasted investment.

Thanks for looking, and any thoughts.

bob prohaska

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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<bp@www.zefox.net> wrote:
...

Right now the root structure is appropriate to a tree about
fifteen feet tall and maybe ten feet wide. That needs a certain
amount of photosynthesis to remain healthy, likely far more than
is supplied by the existing leaf area. That suggests leaving all
growth alone initially and then progressively removing unwanted
branches after some delay.

that sounds reasonable, with the hot season coming up having
less leaves might actually be a good thing as then the roots
don't have to work so hard to support the canopy.

Anybody got a hint what an appropriate delay might be? Weeks, months?
Maybe a year? Seems best to minimize the tree's wasted investment.

i would remove any bottom growth right away and leave
most of the rest except perhap a few of the worst ones
you would want to remove anyways. in the fall or other
pruning time do some more. i don't really know the cycle
of pruning for citrus trees at all (i live in the north).


songbird

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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songbird wrote:

<bp@www.zefox.net> wrote:
...

Right now the root structure is appropriate to a tree about
fifteen feet tall and maybe ten feet wide. That needs a certain
amount of photosynthesis to remain healthy, likely far more than
is supplied by the existing leaf area. That suggests leaving all
growth alone initially and then progressively removing unwanted
branches after some delay.

that sounds reasonable, with the hot season coming up having
less leaves might actually be a good thing as then the roots
don't have to work so hard to support the canopy.

Anybody got a hint what an appropriate delay might be? Weeks,
months? Maybe a year? Seems best to minimize the tree's wasted
investment.

i would remove any bottom growth right away and leave
most of the rest except perhap a few of the worst ones
you would want to remove anyways. in the fall or other
pruning time do some more. i don't really know the cycle
of pruning for citrus trees at all (i live in the north).

songbird

I'm not far enough south to know more than apples. Prune those early
September and don't prune to heavily.

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cshenk <cshenk@virginia-beach.net> wrote:

songbird wrote:

<bp@www.zefox.net> wrote:
...

Right now the root structure is appropriate to a tree about
fifteen feet tall and maybe ten feet wide. That needs a certain
amount of photosynthesis to remain healthy, likely far more than
is supplied by the existing leaf area. That suggests leaving all
growth alone initially and then progressively removing unwanted
branches after some delay.

that sounds reasonable, with the hot season coming up having
less leaves might actually be a good thing as then the roots
don't have to work so hard to support the canopy.

Anybody got a hint what an appropriate delay might be? Weeks,
months? Maybe a year? Seems best to minimize the tree's wasted
investment.

i would remove any bottom growth right away and leave
most of the rest except perhap a few of the worst ones
you would want to remove anyways. in the fall or other
pruning time do some more. i don't really know the cycle
of pruning for citrus trees at all (i live in the north).


songbird

I'm not far enough south to know more than apples. Prune those early September and don't prune to heavily.

Growth slows down as the days shorten in the fall (the lemon tree
is in a northwest pocket between two houses, with lots of trees).
Very little happens between December and about April, but after
that it's off to the races until about September.

I think the rats may have been attracted by spring flush pruning
done by me. The snapped-off new growth is wonderfully fragrant
and smells good enough to eat. Quite possibly any sap leakage
is sweet. The puzzle then is why the squirrels didn't start this
long ago; they've been chewing on my (late) mulberry for years.

I've removed the lowest buds and will thin the upper buds, keeping
one our two when several are emerging close together. Then look again
around midwinter. Best to avoid too much pruning later in spring.

Thank for writing!

bob prohaska

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<bp@www.zefox.net> wrote:

cshenk <cshenk@virginia-beach.net> wrote:

songbird wrote:

<bp@www.zefox.net> wrote:
...

Right now the root structure is appropriate to a tree about
fifteen feet tall and maybe ten feet wide. That needs a certain
amount of photosynthesis to remain healthy, likely far more than
is supplied by the existing leaf area. That suggests leaving all
growth alone initially and then progressively removing unwanted
branches after some delay.

that sounds reasonable, with the hot season coming up having
less leaves might actually be a good thing as then the roots
don't have to work so hard to support the canopy.

Anybody got a hint what an appropriate delay might be? Weeks,
months? Maybe a year? Seems best to minimize the tree's wasted
investment.

i would remove any bottom growth right away and leave
most of the rest except perhap a few of the worst ones
you would want to remove anyways. in the fall or other
pruning time do some more. i don't really know the cycle
of pruning for citrus trees at all (i live in the north).


songbird

I'm not far enough south to know more than apples. Prune those
early September and don't prune to heavily.

Growth slows down as the days shorten in the fall (the lemon tree
is in a northwest pocket between two houses, with lots of trees).
Very little happens between December and about April, but after
that it's off to the races until about September.

I think the rats may have been attracted by spring flush pruning
done by me. The snapped-off new growth is wonderfully fragrant
and smells good enough to eat. Quite possibly any sap leakage
is sweet. The puzzle then is why the squirrels didn't start this
long ago; they've been chewing on my (late) mulberry for years.

I've removed the lowest buds and will thin the upper buds, keeping
one our two when several are emerging close together. Then look again
around midwinter. Best to avoid too much pruning later in spring.

Thank for writing!

bob prohaska

Always happy to add what I do and don't know! Mostly it's southern
apple types.

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