XPost: sci.lang, alt.usage.english, alt.proverbs

French proverb : “A man who knows two languages is worth two men.”

----------- is this really a French proverb ?


i can't find it French,

and besides, (at least in the 1970's -- 1980's)
the French didn't think much of people who can speak foreign languages.




“I speak Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men, and German to
my dog.” --------------Emperor Charles V




If you talk to a man in a language he understands, that goes to his
head. If you talk to him in his own language, that goes to his heart.

Avoir une autre langue, c'est posséder une deuxième âme.
-------- To have another language is to possess a second soul.

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XPost: sci.lang, alt.usage.english, alt.proverbs

Le 04/06/2024 à 00:01, HenHanna a écrit :

French proverb :  “A man who knows two languages is worth two men.”

                        -----------  is this really a  French proverb ?

  i can't find it French,

  and    besides,   (at least in the 1970's -- 1980's)
 the French didn't think much of people who can speak foreign languages.

There are traces of it in different forms, and it may be an African
proverb translated:

« Un homme qui parle une langue vaut un homme ; un homme qui parle deux langues vaut deux hommes ; un homme qui en parle trois vaut toute
l'humanité. »


En passant, I found this:

« Un homme qui parle trois langues est trilingue. Un homme qui parle
deux langues est bilingue. Un homme qui ne parle qu'une langue est
anglais » - Claude Gagnière.

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XPost: sci.lang, alt.usage.english, alt.proverbs

Hibou wrote:

Le 04/06/2024 à 00:01, HenHanna a écrit :

French proverb :  “A man who knows two languages is worth two men.”

                        -----------  is this really a  French proverb
?

  i can't find it French,

  and    besides,   (at least in the 1970's -- 1980's)
 the French didn't think much of people who can speak foreign
languages.

There are traces of it in different forms, and it may be an African
proverb translated:

« Un homme qui parle une langue vaut un homme ; un homme qui parle deux

langues vaut deux hommes ; un homme qui en parle trois vaut toute l'humanité. »

En passant, I found this:

« Un homme qui parle trois langues est trilingue. Un homme qui parle
deux langues est bilingue. Un homme qui ne parle qu'une langue est
anglais » --------- Claude Gagnière.

was he not French? was he Belgian? Swiss?




Limited Multilingualism: Historically, France emphasized national
unity and French as the unifying language. This means multilingualism
isn't as widespread as in some other European countries.



Multilingual country: Belgium has three official languages: French,
Dutch (Flemish), and German.

Regional distribution: French is spoken in the southern Wallonia
region, Dutch (Flemish) is spoken in the northern Flanders region, and
German is spoken by a small minority in the east. The Brussels-Capital
Region is officially bilingual (French and Dutch).

Language learning is encouraged: Due to the multilingual nature of
the country, people in some regions might be exposed to and have some proficiency in more than one language. However, fluency in all three
official languages is not common.

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Le 04/06/2024 à 21:07, HenHanna a écrit :

Hibou wrote:

En passant, I found this:

« Un homme qui parle trois langues est trilingue. Un homme qui parle
deux langues est bilingue. Un homme qui ne parle qu'une langue est
anglais » --------- Claude Gagnière.

                 was he not French?    was he Belgian?    Swiss?

Il était français. He was French.

<https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Gagni%C3%A8re>

Multilingual country:   Belgium has three official languages: French,
Dutch (Flemish), and German. [...] However, fluency in all three
official languages is not common.

It may also be inadvisable for the ordinary Joe. Learning a language
takes much effort, which is not then available for other things. The
risk is that one ends up having nothing to say, while being able to say
it perfectly in three different languages.

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XPost: sci.lang, alt.usage.english, alt.proverbs

Op 4/06/2024 om 22:07 schreef HenHanna:

Hibou wrote:

Le 04/06/2024 à 00:01, HenHanna a écrit :

French proverb :  “A man who knows two languages is worth two men.” >>>
                         -----------  is this really a  French proverb
?

   i can't find it French,

   and    besides,   (at least in the 1970's -- 1980's)
  the French didn't think much of people who can speak foreign
languages.

There are traces of it in different forms, and it may be an African
proverb translated:

« Un homme qui parle une langue vaut un homme ; un homme qui parle deux

langues vaut deux hommes ; un homme qui en parle trois vaut toute
l'humanité. »

En passant, I found this:

« Un homme qui parle trois langues est trilingue. Un homme qui parle
deux langues est bilingue. Un homme qui ne parle qu'une langue est
anglais » --------- Claude Gagnière.

Old joke here. Of course the clou hereabouts runs rather "... is a Francophone".

(...)
Multilingual country:   Belgium has three official languages: French,
Dutch (Flemish), and German.

Regional distribution:   French is spoken in the southern Wallonia
region, Dutch (Flemish) is spoken in the northern Flanders region, and
German is spoken by a small minority in the east. The Brussels-Capital
Region is officially bilingual (French and Dutch).

Language learning is encouraged:    Due to the multilingual nature of
the country, people in some regions might be exposed to and have some proficiency in more than one language. However, fluency in all three
official languages is not common.

In practice: when in a group there is one Francophone, everyone defaults
to conversing in French. When a Fleming resides in Wallonia they'll
speak French. When a francophone resides in Flanders they'll speak French.
The large periphery around Brussels is loosing rapidly its Flemish
character. Creeping (at times running) Francisation is still going on
now, largely ignored by politics (even the nationalists), but a source
of irritation to a dwindling portion of the local populace, like me :o)

--
guido wugi

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XPost: sci.lang, alt.usage.english, alt.proverbs

On 04/06/24 09:01, HenHanna wrote:

If you talk to a man in a language he understands, that goes to his
head. If you talk to him in his own language, that goes to his
heart.

At various times I have been in places where my command of the local
language was somewhere between zero and negligible. That must happen to
anyone who has done a bit of travelling. How does one deal with this?

One approach is that of the obnoxious tourist who speaks in English very loudly. (Only English speakers do this, for some reason.) The
assumption, I presume, is that anyone who can't understand him must be deaf.

My own approach is meek. I avoid saying anything at all. Where that is
not possible, I'll at least make sure to work out how to say "Do you
speak English or French?" in the local language, those being the two
languages where I can get by. (Special case: I have worked out how to
say "I don't speak X" for a number of different values of X.) If you
can't speak a language, most people appreciate that you've at least made
an effort.

(Exception: if you say that to a Dutch speaker, you get one of two
responses, in my experience. The first is "Maar U spreekt Nederlands,
meneer". (If you can say that much with a good Dutch accent, you must be
fully fluent in Dutch.) The other is a very offended "Of course I speak English". How dare you suggest that I'm so uneducated that I can't speak
your language?)

One place where I felt completely lost was in Seoul. I knew no Korean,
and nobody there spoke English. (This has since changed, I gather.) I
couldn't even guess what the street signs said, although I did get as
far as figuring out that the writing was a phonetic syllabary. On
initial arrival, I had a card with name of my hotel written in Korean,
and I compared that with the sign on the front of each arriving bus.
From that experience, I have a lot of sympathy for people who are in a
country whose language is totally foreign to them. At least I can read
the street names anywhere in western Europe.

(Exception: the Irish don't believe in giving names to roads, so there
aren't any street signs.)

--
Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

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On 09/06/24 11:39, Tony Cooper wrote:

On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 00:35:45 +1000, Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org>
wrote:

At various times I have been in places where my command of the
local language was somewhere between zero and negligible. That must
happen to anyone who has done a bit of travelling. How does one
deal with this?

I am so monolingual that I was identified as an American after
saying only "Zwei bier" in a crowded pub in Germany.

One way I coped in restaurants was casually strolling around
noticing what other patrons were being served, and telling the waiter
"We'll have what those people over there are having" and pointing to
a table where something looked good.

When my wife and I were in the south of France, only a few years ago, we decided to visit the Dali museum in Figueres. (Northern Spain.) (An
excellent museum to visit, by the way.) When we went to lunch, I coped
with the language problem by going to the menu board and writing down a
couple of things that looked promising. When the waiter came I handed
him the bit of paper.

This worked well, except that I did end up uttering a few words, and I
said "con" when I should have said "amb". (My knowledge of Catalan was
zero.) This made the waiter think I was one of the southern enemy, so he
was a bit cold to us after that.

--
Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

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XPost: sci.lang, alt.usage.english, alt.proverbs

Le 08/06/2024 à 15:35, Peter Moylan a écrit :

On 04/06/24 09:01, HenHanna wrote:

If you talk to a man in a language he understands, that goes to his
head. If you talk to him in his own language, that goes to his
heart.

At various times I have been in places where my command of the local
language was somewhere between zero and negligible. That must happen to anyone who has done a bit of travelling. How does one deal with this? [...]

We've toyed with a translation app, which can handle speech and text
(via the device's camera, for instance), and Mme Hibou successfully used
it once with an actual foreigner, but we've no greater experience of it:

<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.microsoft.translator>

This could be used directly, or might be a way of translating and
rehearsing key phrases before one walks up to the counter at the station
etc.. But would it know not to ask for a second-class ticket in Britain
(which request does not result in a ticket, but a ticking off for not
calling it 'standard class')?

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