At the Canadian masters nationals in Montreal a few years ago, I noticed that almost all the quads had no rudders, just big fixed skegs. It drew my attention because a couple of weeks prior toeing errors had caused my team to loose first place at the USA
masters nationals.
Hugh Hudson was looking after the Hudson stand at the regatta and I asked him about the Canadian practice. He told me they use fins designed for 8s. We ordered one for our club's quad, installed it, and pulled the rudder and toeing mechanism.
It has proved to be a wise choice for 1k masters events. Why? Because our quad racing crews are usually stitched together at the last minute, often as composites with scullers from other small clubs, and it is unlikely that anyone in these crews has the
talent to handle effectively a toe mechanism that is new to him or her.
We've made a useful adaptation: now the bow is careful about calls to keep the quad tracking along the middle of the lane, minimizing the excursion from straight line. These calls are more frequent, sometimes much more frequent, than would be the case
with if the person with the toe was experienced and dexterous.

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On Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 3:23:47 PM UTC-6, Steve S wrote:

At the Canadian masters nationals in Montreal a few years ago, I noticed that almost all the quads had no rudders, just big fixed skegs. It drew my attention because a couple of weeks prior toeing errors had caused my team to loose first place at the

USA masters nationals.

Hugh Hudson was looking after the Hudson stand at the regatta and I asked him about the Canadian practice. He told me they use fins designed for 8s. We ordered one for our club's quad, installed it, and pulled the rudder and toeing mechanism.
It has proved to be a wise choice for 1k masters events. Why? Because our quad racing crews are usually stitched together at the last minute, often as composites with scullers from other small clubs, and it is unlikely that anyone in these crews has

the talent to handle effectively a toe mechanism that is new to him or her.

We've made a useful adaptation: now the bow is careful about calls to keep the quad tracking along the middle of the lane, minimizing the excursion from straight line. These calls are more frequent, sometimes much more frequent, than would be the case

with if the person with the toe was experienced and dexterous.
Steve,

I can see how that works well in a sprint race. Our res is circular with buoys that force us along the irregular shoreline.

It is interesting that you mention Hudsons. We have a few Hudson doubles in the club and they are hard to turn.
In fact, I won't row them but I don't have to as I'm part owner of an old Vespoli double that turns on a dime and is a dream to row
on the Reservoir. I'm sure it is slower than the Hudson on a straight course. Most of my previous experience is in whitewater where our boats are meant to turn easily. They are upturned and rounded at the ends.

I suspect the hull design is most important in how easily a boat turns but that fin design can improve turning for a given design?

A further anecdote in support - before becoming a kayaker I learned to whitewater (open) canoe on the Potomac River in DC. I had purchased an open canoe that was advertised as a downriver canoe. The instructor stood on a rock telling us to head for it
and avoid it at the last instant by making drawing and prying strokes. We did as he said and hit the rock dead on. The third time I was prying so hard I broke my paddle. The boat would not turn. A true whitewater craft turns easily and is symmetric .
A downriver canoe - not so much. That has to be hull design.

Do you need separate boats for sprint and head racing?

Your point about frequent calls to stay centered in the lane is really interesting. A boat like a canoe or kayak, designed to turn, requires an adjustment on every stroke or it is in danger of spinning out. With frequent calls you only need small
changes that can be accomplished by going harder on one side without reducing the opposite
side effort. I suppose crews that have been together do that automatically.

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Steve, the mention of Hudson doubles is interesting to me also. Our club has a collection of Hudson doubles (no other brands) that are a chore to turn. Our reservoir is 11 miles of twisting former river with lots of wild life to make the long rows
enjoyable. Saw two bald eagles today and an osprey diving for its lunch. But those turns are a chore. Do you have any sense of what the difference is between your Hudsons and your delightful Vespoli?

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On Thursday, October 7, 2021 at 7:59:03 PM UTC-6, Dick White wrote:

Steve, the mention of Hudson doubles is interesting to me also. Our club has a collection of Hudson doubles (no other brands) that are a chore to turn. Our reservoir is 11 miles of twisting former river with lots of wild life to make the long rows

enjoyable. Saw two bald eagles today and an osprey diving for its lunch. But those turns are a chore. Do you have any sense of what the difference is between your Hudsons and your delightful Vespoli?
Dick,

It is a shame that clubs such as ours don't make more informed decisions when purchasing boats for our particular venues. In retrospect, the Hudsons may not have been the best boat for both our needs. I just volunteer coxed Novices for their first
time in a Vespoli eight and I had to sit on top of the deck. The cox seat was so narrow that most Masters rowers could not fit in it. Most cox seats are a tight fit but we manage in our other eights. There are many questions that should be asked about
boats other than price and availability when deciding on a purchase for a Masters club. For example, is a bow coxed four really a good choice for Masters rowing with "volunteered" coxswains?

Regarding the special features of the Hudson hull that make it want to go straight vs the Vespoli hull, there are more knowledgeable people than myself who can answer that better. Maybe your question will draw them out so that we can all become better
informed?

Bob

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On Friday, 8 October 2021 at 16:05:44 UTC+1, Bob wrote:

On Thursday, October 7, 2021 at 7:59:03 PM UTC-6, Dick White wrote:

Steve, the mention of Hudson doubles is interesting to me also. Our club has a collection of Hudson doubles (no other brands) that are a chore to turn. Our reservoir is 11 miles of twisting former river with lots of wild life to make the long rows

enjoyable. Saw two bald eagles today and an osprey diving for its lunch. But those turns are a chore. Do you have any sense of what the difference is between your Hudsons and your delightful Vespoli?

Dick,

It is a shame that clubs such as ours don't make more informed decisions when purchasing boats for our particular venues. In retrospect, the Hudsons may not have been the best boat for both our needs. I just volunteer coxed Novices for their first time

in a Vespoli eight and I had to sit on top of the deck. The cox seat was so narrow that most Masters rowers could not fit in it. Most cox seats are a tight fit but we manage in our other eights. There are many questions that should be asked about boats
other than price and availability when deciding on a purchase for a Masters club. For example, is a bow coxed four really a good choice for Masters rowing with "volunteered" coxswains?

Regarding the special features of the Hudson hull that make it want to go straight vs the Vespoli hull, there are more knowledgeable people than myself who can answer that better. Maybe your question will draw them out so that we can all become better

informed?

Bob

In our recreational club we won't have any bow loader fours, and definitely make purchase decisions based on cox comfort. I once scrapped a wooden eight that we were given that had a wooden strake at exactly hip bone height. No idea why everyone got so
huffy when i suggested planing 6 inches off their hips....

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On 11/10/2021 11:40, Andy McKenzie wrote:

On Friday, 8 October 2021 at 16:05:44 UTC+1, Bob wrote:

On Thursday, October 7, 2021 at 7:59:03 PM UTC-6, Dick White wrote:

Steve, the mention of Hudson doubles is interesting to me also. Our club has a collection of Hudson doubles (no other brands) that are a chore to turn. Our reservoir is 11 miles of twisting former river with lots of wild life to make the long rows

enjoyable. Saw two bald eagles today and an osprey diving for its lunch. But those turns are a chore. Do you have any sense of what the difference is between your Hudsons and your delightful Vespoli?

Dick,

It is a shame that clubs such as ours don't make more informed decisions when purchasing boats for our particular venues. In retrospect, the Hudsons may not have been the best boat for both our needs. I just volunteer coxed Novices for their first

time in a Vespoli eight and I had to sit on top of the deck. The cox seat was so narrow that most Masters rowers could not fit in it. Most cox seats are a tight fit but we manage in our other eights. There are many questions that should be asked about
boats other than price and availability when deciding on a purchase for a Masters club. For example, is a bow coxed four really a good choice for Masters rowing with "volunteered" coxswains?

Regarding the special features of the Hudson hull that make it want to go straight vs the Vespoli hull, there are more knowledgeable people than myself who can answer that better. Maybe your question will draw them out so that we can all become better

informed?

Bob

In our recreational club we won't have any bow loader fours, and definitely make purchase decisions based on cox comfort. I once scrapped a wooden eight that we were given that had a wooden strake at exactly hip bone height. No idea why everyone got so

huffy when i suggested planing 6 inches off their hips....


I knew of an eight into the bow seat of which only the snake-hipped
could fit. ISTR that it was known as "The Bacon Slicer".

Oar-steerability of a shell depends on a complex mix of: fin design, fin position, rudder (if any) design, hull form, bow shape & weight
distribution. Also waves and cross-winds.

IMO, all shells down to 2x should be rudder steered, but all crews would
do well to learn the sensitivity needed to control the boat with their
oars. That last was demonstrated a few years back in the Head of the
Charles, when the Great Eight lost its rudder but those top-class
scullers took that set-back in their stride.

In the Moscow Olympics I heard that the GB eight broke a rudder wire, &
cox, Colin Moynihan, had to reach behind himself to grab the steering yoke.

But regarding the comments in an adjacent thread - on sitting the boat
for "masters" rowers - it seems to me that adults of advancing age
ought, at the very least, to appreciate the need to sit their own bit of
the boat. Otherwise, how dare they call themselves masters, & why
should anyone wish to row with them?

Cheers -
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: carl@carldouglasrowing.com Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: carldouglasrowing.com & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells

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oars. That last was demonstrated a few years back in the Head of the Charles, when the Great Eight lost its rudder but those top-class
scullers took that set-back in their stride.

The race that Carl mentions was a classic. The woman cox of the Great Eight was an English graduate student or post doc at Harvard who had a sterling reputation from coxing v. successfully on the Tideway. When they lost their rudder she aided the
steering by immersing her left or right hands as appropriate.
As I recall, it was snowing at the time.

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On 12/10/2021 06:21, Steve S wrote:

oars. That last was demonstrated a few years back in the Head of the
Charles, when the Great Eight lost its rudder but those top-class
scullers took that set-back in their stride.

The race that Carl mentions was a classic. The woman cox of the Great Eight was an English graduate student or post doc at Harvard who had a sterling reputation from coxing v. successfully on the Tideway. When they lost their rudder she aided the

steering by immersing her left or right hands as appropriate.

As I recall, it was snowing at the time.

Steve - I'd forgotten that bit! Thank you.

And, of course, the human hand, held vertically and thumb-first into the
flow, is not so bad an approximation to an aerofoil or a wing (as any
kid who ever held a hand out of the car window will recall). Effective
but rather draggy.

There should be a book on rowing with a chapter on how coxes saved the
day, regardless of personal cost.

Cheers -
Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: carl@carldouglasrowing.com Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: carldouglasrowing.com & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells

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On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 5:14:25 AM UTC-6, carl wrote:

On 12/10/2021 06:21, Steve S wrote:

oars. That last was demonstrated a few years back in the Head of the
Charles, when the Great Eight lost its rudder but those top-class
scullers took that set-back in their stride.

The race that Carl mentions was a classic. The woman cox of the Great Eight was an English graduate student or post doc at Harvard who had a sterling reputation from coxing v. successfully on the Tideway. When they lost their rudder she aided the

steering by immersing her left or right hands as appropriate.

As I recall, it was snowing at the time.

Steve - I'd forgotten that bit! Thank you.

And, of course, the human hand, held vertically and thumb-first into the flow, is not so bad an approximation to an aerofoil or a wing (as any
kid who ever held a hand out of the car window will recall). Effective
but rather draggy.

There should be a book on rowing with a chapter on how coxes saved the
day, regardless of personal cost.
Cheers -
Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: ca...@carldouglasrowing.com Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: carldouglasrowing.com & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells

Here is the rec sport recap on the whole affair:

https://rec.sport.rowing.narkive.com/Q2YuGLOa/great-8-steering-at-the-charles#post2

Fascinating and germane to the start of this thread before I got it off track.

Bob

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