Do we think this would last the test of time, or the actual use?
https://www.row2k.com/features/5824/rowing-hack--carabiner-clipped-heels/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl07122023
I like the thought of a simple heel restraint swap ability - happens so often in club boats.
You (the club) could control the length and control the knot tying - I would not trust individuals, but concerned it could deteriorate over time!
James
On 13/07/2023 08:04, James HS wrote:I commented on this article at Row2K last year when it was just a couple of weeks old. It appears that my observation was taken to heart to an extent. Clearly, these CAN be a matter of life or death. It is better than Carl’s ‘favourite’ zip tie
Do we think this would last the test of time, or the actual use?
https://www.row2k.com/features/5824/rowing-hack--carabiner-clipped-heels/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl07122023
I like the thought of a simple heel restraint swap ability - happens so often in club boats.
You (the club) could control the length and control the knot tying - I would not trust individuals, but concerned it could deteriorate over time!
JamesThe link in the article says those clips are made of aluminium. I
wouldn't trust those to withstand anything but the weakest yank.
They do mention there are titanium alternatives though I couldn't find
them. Larger stainless steel would be better IMHO.
Kit
On Thursday, July 13, 2023 at 5:36:04 AM UTC-4, Kit Davies wrote:tie approach - but only by a little. Nota bene: this goes back to his very correct ranting against people using zip ties as tie downs several years ago.
On 13/07/2023 08:04, James HS wrote:I commented on this article at Row2K last year when it was just a couple of weeks old. It appears that my observation was taken to heart to an extent. Clearly, these CAN be a matter of life or death. It is better than Carl’s ‘favourite’ zip
Do we think this would last the test of time, or the actual use?The link in the article says those clips are made of aluminium. I
https://www.row2k.com/features/5824/rowing-hack--carabiner-clipped-heels/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl07122023
I like the thought of a simple heel restraint swap ability - happens so often in club boats.
You (the club) could control the length and control the knot tying - I would not trust individuals, but concerned it could deteriorate over time!
James
wouldn't trust those to withstand anything but the weakest yank.
They do mention there are titanium alternatives though I couldn't find
them. Larger stainless steel would be better IMHO.
Kit
Even if you implement this with a device with sufficient tensile strength, I would be concerned about the locking arm staying in place. These are hidden from normal view and almost never inspected. The spring may break or weaken over time, especiallyif it is carbon steel. It is also POSSIBLE that the locking arm gets dislodged by some object or force.
The desire to save time in changing shoes is reasonable. I suggest that a better approach might be to use a stainless shackle that has a screw locking pin. This provides the tensile strength and a more reliable attachment with a small added time toremove and insert.
On 13/07/2023 20:59, don Vickers wrote:approach - but only by a little. Nota bene: this goes back to his very correct ranting against people using zip ties as tie downs several years ago.
On Thursday, July 13, 2023 at 5:36:04 AM UTC-4, Kit Davies wrote:
On 13/07/2023 08:04, James HS wrote:I commented on this article at Row2K last year when it was just a couple of weeks old. It appears that my observation was taken to heart to an extent. Clearly, these CAN be a matter of life or death. It is better than Carl’s ‘favourite’ zip tie
Do we think this would last the test of time, or the actual use?The link in the article says those clips are made of aluminium. I
https://www.row2k.com/features/5824/rowing-hack--carabiner-clipped-heels/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl07122023
I like the thought of a simple heel restraint swap ability - happens so often in club boats.
You (the club) could control the length and control the knot tying - I would not trust individuals, but concerned it could deteriorate over time!
James
wouldn't trust those to withstand anything but the weakest yank.
They do mention there are titanium alternatives though I couldn't find
them. Larger stainless steel would be better IMHO.
Kit
if it is carbon steel. It is also POSSIBLE that the locking arm gets dislodged by some object or force.Even if you implement this with a device with sufficient tensile strength, I would be concerned about the locking arm staying in place. These are hidden from normal view and almost never inspected. The spring may break or weaken over time, especially
remove and insert.The desire to save time in changing shoes is reasonable. I suggest that a better approach might be to use a stainless shackle that has a screw locking pin. This provides the tensile strength and a more reliable attachment with a small added time to
Don -Carl,
With respect, I am unaware that I have ever recommended a Zip-tie in
place of a proper heel cord. Some other Carl, perhaps?
I have viewed that article & am frankly appalled. It proposes a trivial piece of "tat", displaying a serious lack awareness of the vital safety function of the heel cord system.
Heel cords are a vexed issue in part because nearly every
fully-adjustable stretcher out there incorporates 1 totally redundant component - the shoe plate. We've been fitting fully-adjustable
stretchers to boats, providing swift & secure adjustment of shoe height
and inclination, for several decades.
The problem with any stretcher on which the shoes come mounted on a
moveable shoe plate is that changing the shoe height changes the amount
of heel lift because the shoes move WRT the board while the cord
attachment point is fixed WRT the board.
Adjusting the height of the shoes on our stretchers has not the
slightest effect on the setting of the heel cords - because the shoe
does not move WRT the stretcher board.
I haven't time to take this further now, but may return to elaborate on
the matter tomorrow.
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: ca...@carldouglasrowing.com Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: carldouglasrowing.com & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells
On Thursday, July 13, 2023 at 5:33:32 PM UTC-4, carl wrote:approach - but only by a little. Nota bene: this goes back to his very correct ranting against people using zip ties as tie downs several years ago.
On 13/07/2023 20:59, don Vickers wrote:
On Thursday, July 13, 2023 at 5:36:04 AM UTC-4, Kit Davies wrote:
On 13/07/2023 08:04, James HS wrote:I commented on this article at Row2K last year when it was just a couple of weeks old. It appears that my observation was taken to heart to an extent. Clearly, these CAN be a matter of life or death. It is better than Carl’s ‘favourite’ zip tie
Do we think this would last the test of time, or the actual use?The link in the article says those clips are made of aluminium. I
https://www.row2k.com/features/5824/rowing-hack--carabiner-clipped-heels/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl07122023
I like the thought of a simple heel restraint swap ability - happens so often in club boats.
You (the club) could control the length and control the knot tying - I would not trust individuals, but concerned it could deteriorate over time!
James
wouldn't trust those to withstand anything but the weakest yank.
They do mention there are titanium alternatives though I couldn't find >>>> them. Larger stainless steel would be better IMHO.
Kit
if it is carbon steel. It is also POSSIBLE that the locking arm gets dislodged by some object or force.
Even if you implement this with a device with sufficient tensile strength, I would be concerned about the locking arm staying in place. These are hidden from normal view and almost never inspected. The spring may break or weaken over time, especially
remove and insert.
The desire to save time in changing shoes is reasonable. I suggest that a better approach might be to use a stainless shackle that has a screw locking pin. This provides the tensile strength and a more reliable attachment with a small added time to
Don -
With respect, I am unaware that I have ever recommended a Zip-tie in
place of a proper heel cord. Some other Carl, perhaps?
I have viewed that article & am frankly appalled. It proposes a trivial
piece of "tat", displaying a serious lack awareness of the vital safety
function of the heel cord system.
Heel cords are a vexed issue in part because nearly every
fully-adjustable stretcher out there incorporates 1 totally redundant
component - the shoe plate. We've been fitting fully-adjustable
stretchers to boats, providing swift & secure adjustment of shoe height
and inclination, for several decades.
The problem with any stretcher on which the shoes come mounted on a
moveable shoe plate is that changing the shoe height changes the amount
of heel lift because the shoes move WRT the board while the cord
attachment point is fixed WRT the board.
Adjusting the height of the shoes on our stretchers has not the
slightest effect on the setting of the heel cords - because the shoe
does not move WRT the stretcher board.
I haven't time to take this further now, but may return to elaborate on
the matter tomorrow.
Carl
Carl,
I apologise for making a poor joke and not making it clear that it was inverse and, possibly, perverse. The reason I enclosed favourite in quotes was to help in that regard.
My reference was from a series of discussions several years ago about heel tie downs where zip ties had been suggested and you rightly pointed out that they were a horrible idea.
Humour in text can be confusing the hands of amateurs.
My apologies,
don
On Friday, July 14, 2023 at 11:14:24 AM UTC-6, carl wrote:tie approach - but only by a little. Nota bene: this goes back to his very correct ranting against people using zip ties as tie downs several years ago.
On 14/07/2023 12:54, don Vickers wrote:
On Thursday, July 13, 2023 at 5:33:32 PM UTC-4, carl wrote:
On 13/07/2023 20:59, don Vickers wrote:
On Thursday, July 13, 2023 at 5:36:04 AM UTC-4, Kit Davies wrote: >>>>>> On 13/07/2023 08:04, James HS wrote:
I commented on this article at Row2K last year when it was just a couple of weeks old. It appears that my observation was taken to heart to an extent. Clearly, these CAN be a matter of life or death. It is better than Carl’s ‘favourite’ zipDo we think this would last the test of time, or the actual use? >>>>>>>The link in the article says those clips are made of aluminium. I
https://www.row2k.com/features/5824/rowing-hack--carabiner-clipped-heels/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl07122023
I like the thought of a simple heel restraint swap ability - happens so often in club boats.
You (the club) could control the length and control the knot tying - I would not trust individuals, but concerned it could deteriorate over time!
James
wouldn't trust those to withstand anything but the weakest yank.
They do mention there are titanium alternatives though I couldn't find >>>>>> them. Larger stainless steel would be better IMHO.
Kit
especially if it is carbon steel. It is also POSSIBLE that the locking arm gets dislodged by some object or force.
Even if you implement this with a device with sufficient tensile strength, I would be concerned about the locking arm staying in place. These are hidden from normal view and almost never inspected. The spring may break or weaken over time,
remove and insert.
The desire to save time in changing shoes is reasonable. I suggest that a better approach might be to use a stainless shackle that has a screw locking pin. This provides the tensile strength and a more reliable attachment with a small added time to
No apologies needed, Don! We stand on the same side of that safetyCarl,Don -
With respect, I am unaware that I have ever recommended a Zip-tie in
place of a proper heel cord. Some other Carl, perhaps?
I have viewed that article & am frankly appalled. It proposes a trivial >>>> piece of "tat", displaying a serious lack awareness of the vital safety >>>> function of the heel cord system.
Heel cords are a vexed issue in part because nearly every
fully-adjustable stretcher out there incorporates 1 totally redundant
component - the shoe plate. We've been fitting fully-adjustable
stretchers to boats, providing swift & secure adjustment of shoe height >>>> and inclination, for several decades.
The problem with any stretcher on which the shoes come mounted on a
moveable shoe plate is that changing the shoe height changes the amount >>>> of heel lift because the shoes move WRT the board while the cord
attachment point is fixed WRT the board.
Adjusting the height of the shoes on our stretchers has not the
slightest effect on the setting of the heel cords - because the shoe
does not move WRT the stretcher board.
I haven't time to take this further now, but may return to elaborate on >>>> the matter tomorrow.
Carl
I apologise for making a poor joke and not making it clear that it was inverse and, possibly, perverse. The reason I enclosed favourite in quotes was to help in that regard.
My reference was from a series of discussions several years ago about heel tie downs where zip ties had been suggested and you rightly pointed out that they were a horrible idea.
Humour in text can be confusing the hands of amateurs.
My apologies,
don
fence, as on many others.
But I do have a huge problem with the supposed authorities in our sport
&, indeed, with those who propose modifications to essential safety
devices but dare not personally test & evaluate them, let alone testing
under under realistic conditions.
Cheers -
Carl
I think the approach in the article is super practical. All of the criticisms in this thread I think are shortsighted and unrealistic:
Do you think alumnium is going to be weaker than a shoe lace!?
The lace length is going to be set by whomever ties them--regardless of the restraint system: traditional, clip or, zip tie.
On 14/07/2023 12:54, don Vickers wrote:tie approach - but only by a little. Nota bene: this goes back to his very correct ranting against people using zip ties as tie downs several years ago.
On Thursday, July 13, 2023 at 5:33:32 PM UTC-4, carl wrote:
On 13/07/2023 20:59, don Vickers wrote:
On Thursday, July 13, 2023 at 5:36:04 AM UTC-4, Kit Davies wrote:
On 13/07/2023 08:04, James HS wrote:I commented on this article at Row2K last year when it was just a couple of weeks old. It appears that my observation was taken to heart to an extent. Clearly, these CAN be a matter of life or death. It is better than Carl’s ‘favourite’ zip
Do we think this would last the test of time, or the actual use?The link in the article says those clips are made of aluminium. I
https://www.row2k.com/features/5824/rowing-hack--carabiner-clipped-heels/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl07122023
I like the thought of a simple heel restraint swap ability - happens so often in club boats.
You (the club) could control the length and control the knot tying - I would not trust individuals, but concerned it could deteriorate over time!
James
wouldn't trust those to withstand anything but the weakest yank.
They do mention there are titanium alternatives though I couldn't find >>>> them. Larger stainless steel would be better IMHO.
Kit
especially if it is carbon steel. It is also POSSIBLE that the locking arm gets dislodged by some object or force.
Even if you implement this with a device with sufficient tensile strength, I would be concerned about the locking arm staying in place. These are hidden from normal view and almost never inspected. The spring may break or weaken over time,
remove and insert.
The desire to save time in changing shoes is reasonable. I suggest that a better approach might be to use a stainless shackle that has a screw locking pin. This provides the tensile strength and a more reliable attachment with a small added time to
Carl,Don -
With respect, I am unaware that I have ever recommended a Zip-tie in
place of a proper heel cord. Some other Carl, perhaps?
I have viewed that article & am frankly appalled. It proposes a trivial >> piece of "tat", displaying a serious lack awareness of the vital safety >> function of the heel cord system.
Heel cords are a vexed issue in part because nearly every
fully-adjustable stretcher out there incorporates 1 totally redundant
component - the shoe plate. We've been fitting fully-adjustable
stretchers to boats, providing swift & secure adjustment of shoe height >> and inclination, for several decades.
The problem with any stretcher on which the shoes come mounted on a
moveable shoe plate is that changing the shoe height changes the amount >> of heel lift because the shoes move WRT the board while the cord
attachment point is fixed WRT the board.
Adjusting the height of the shoes on our stretchers has not the
slightest effect on the setting of the heel cords - because the shoe
does not move WRT the stretcher board.
I haven't time to take this further now, but may return to elaborate on >> the matter tomorrow.
Carl
I apologise for making a poor joke and not making it clear that it was inverse and, possibly, perverse. The reason I enclosed favourite in quotes was to help in that regard.
My reference was from a series of discussions several years ago about heel tie downs where zip ties had been suggested and you rightly pointed out that they were a horrible idea.
Humour in text can be confusing the hands of amateurs.
My apologies,
don
No apologies needed, Don! We stand on the same side of that safety
fence, as on many others.
But I do have a huge problem with the supposed authorities in our sport
&, indeed, with those who propose modifications to essential safety
devices but dare not personally test & evaluate them, let alone testing under under realistic conditions.
Cheers -
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: ca...@carldouglasrowing.com Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: carldouglasrowing.com & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells
On 14/07/2023 21:23, Roman Sammartino wrote:
I think the approach in the article is super practical. All of the criticisms in this thread I think are shortsighted and unrealistic:
Do you think alumnium is going to be weaker than a shoe lace!?
The lace length is going to be set by whomever ties them--regardless of the restraint system: traditional, clip or, zip tie.
So you really think that that cheap little carabiner, with an admitted breaking load (if lucky) of 33lb (15kg), is adequate to save a life?
And you think that whatever arbitrary length of cord the user chooses is right, & that it will save their life if they get it wrong?
And you think it unnecessary to use a stronger cord, fitted so that it cannot chafe & with a knot that cannot come loose?
On Friday, July 14, 2023 at 2:05:50 PM UTC-7, carl wrote:slip out of most shoes. Also, 6061 AL as I'm sure you're aware has a yield strength of around 40000psi. x-section of that carabiner is about .08*.08 inches from the images, giving a yield strength of around 256lb. Even with bending moments accounted
On 14/07/2023 21:23, Roman Sammartino wrote:
So you really think that that cheap little carabiner, with an admitted
I think the approach in the article is super practical. All of the criticisms in this thread I think are shortsighted and unrealistic:
Do you think alumnium is going to be weaker than a shoe lace!?
The lace length is going to be set by whomever ties them--regardless of the restraint system: traditional, clip or, zip tie.
breaking load (if lucky) of 33lb (15kg), is adequate to save a life?
Hey Carl, I'm not trying to argue, rather am curious: have you really determined that 33lb is not a sufficient force to extract heels (feet) from shoes in these unfortunate scenarios? Seems like a lot of force to me, much more than I would need to
Anyway I'm mostly curious about your implication that 33lb is not sufficient to pull one's heels from inverted, submerged, rowing shoes. What kind of force is applied, when extracting one's feet in such a situation?considering this one is replacing what was probably shoelaces tied with knots of questionable quality, or original paracord from the boat manufacturer that was probably dissolving into dust after years of abuse, I'd say it's definitely not WORSE than
To Roman Sammartino: those are not shoe laces in the image. They used guyline paracord which is much stronger and tougher (abrasion resistant) than most shoelaces.
And you think that whatever arbitrary length of cord the user chooses is
right, & that it will save their life if they get it wrong?
I think the point Roman was making about length is that if the length is wrong, it's the fault of the person installing them, and not a failure of the materials used. There may be better designs out there that minimize user error better, but
And you think it unnecessary to use a stronger cord, fitted so that it
cannot chafe & with a knot that cannot come loose?
No argument there, they claim to have used a "hangman's knot" which is not what is pictured. Picture shows a simple overhand slipknot.
On 14/07/2023 22:52, KC wrote:slip out of most shoes. Also, 6061 AL as I'm sure you're aware has a yield strength of around 40000psi. x-section of that carabiner is about .08*.08 inches from the images, giving a yield strength of around 256lb. Even with bending moments accounted for,
On Friday, July 14, 2023 at 2:05:50 PM UTC-7, carl wrote:
On 14/07/2023 21:23, Roman Sammartino wrote:
So you really think that that cheap little carabiner, with an admitted
I think the approach in the article is super practical. All of the criticisms in this thread I think are shortsighted and unrealistic:
Do you think alumnium is going to be weaker than a shoe lace!?
The lace length is going to be set by whomever ties them--regardless of the restraint system: traditional, clip or, zip tie.
breaking load (if lucky) of 33lb (15kg), is adequate to save a life?
Hey Carl, I'm not trying to argue, rather am curious: have you really determined that 33lb is not a sufficient force to extract heels (feet) from shoes in these unfortunate scenarios? Seems like a lot of force to me, much more than I would need to
considering this one is replacing what was probably shoelaces tied with knots of questionable quality, or original paracord from the boat manufacturer that was probably dissolving into dust after years of abuse, I'd say it's definitely not WORSE thanAnyway I'm mostly curious about your implication that 33lb is not sufficient to pull one's heels from inverted, submerged, rowing shoes. What kind of force is applied, when extracting one's feet in such a situation?
To Roman Sammartino: those are not shoe laces in the image. They used guyline paracord which is much stronger and tougher (abrasion resistant) than most shoelaces.
And you think that whatever arbitrary length of cord the user chooses is >> right, & that it will save their life if they get it wrong?
I think the point Roman was making about length is that if the length is wrong, it's the fault of the person installing them, and not a failure of the materials used. There may be better designs out there that minimize user error better, but
And you think it unnecessary to use a stronger cord, fitted so that it
cannot chafe & with a knot that cannot come loose?
No argument there, they claim to have used a "hangman's knot" which is not what is pictured. Picture shows a simple overhand slipknot.
Kieran -
I respect your thoughtful comments, thank you, but must profoundly
disagree in some particulars, as follows:
1. Extraction force: There's a point (if the shoe is a good but not necessarily tight fit) when, as the inextensible sole of the shoe is
curved increasingly around the incompressible bone structure of the
foot, but at an inevitably wider radius, that the foot jams tight
between heel & toe boxes of the shoe. (This is exacerbated when the
user decides to lace the shoe relatively "securely".) And almost no
amount of force will then free that entrapped foot.
So what level of force might a desperate, trapped rower apply?
2. I devised the dead-simple heel cord restraint system on learning from
a new client how he escaped from track shoes when trapped under a large
boat in his previous boat. Built like an ox, he just tore the stretcher apart. And I'd recently heard of cases where, as the fashion went from
clogs to bolt-in track shoes, scullers had died in their inverted boats.
So it was a big wake-up call, & I set about devising how best to
resolve it. But I'm a practical engineer, so I tested it on the water
as well as on dry land - to establish reasonable criteria.
3. Margin of safety: if you can break your last line of defence, then
you're lulled into false security because what was going to save your
life is no more fit for purpose than a chocolate teapot. So I focussed
on these factors:
a) the cords should be indestructible
b) the part of the stretcher to which they attached (& of the shoe)
should be well able to take the likely shock loads
c) what is the maximum safe amount of heel lift before the wrap-around shortening of the foot space in a reasonably fitting shoe began to trap
the foot. My tests indicated that a maximum of 2"/50mm was more than adequate for the needs of the rower (with a rake-adjustable stretcher) & would ensure release even if the shoe was a close fit. But that any
more was treading into danger.
d) the installation should be tamper-proof!! (see below)
I adopted, as over-kill standard, a 4mm-diameter braided nylon cord,
looped from a firm point at the heel of the stretcher, through the shoe
& back again. In the early days there were no special rowing shoes - we
were fitting track shoes. So we looped the cord through a pair of holes
in the sole, near the heel, having first had a cobbler firmly stitch the uppers to the sole. And the ends of the cords were tied into a knot
under the hole in the stretcher, their ends seared with a fame to
prevent loosening, and bedded in a mastic to prevent sliding and wear.
4. Carabiners: our stretcher design gave (& gives) height adjustment
without needing to alter the heel cord lengths - I strongly oppose
fiddling with heel cords by the rower - we don't permit car seat belts
to be left slack, for obvious reasons. And why, with the shoes firmly attached to the same stretcher board, would you be taking one set off & replacing with another set before an outing or race? Just why?
In any case, we know that cast aluminium is prone to voids & defects, so
why would we do all that, then trust our life to a thin piece of cast aluminium, a mere toy, from a key chain? Can you be sure of that 33lb
figure - who tests it, & has it been tested in this use? I've carried heavier shopping bags. It can corrode, it will certainly fatigue under repeatedly loads and abuse. And some naive rower with no grasp on the
risks of foot entrapment is sure to decide it cramps their style. It's
an open invitation to abuse. Would a climber use such a device?
5. The vexed issue of fault: if a safety device intended to prevent
death or injury fails, then the law can't bring the dead back to life
but can very easily be used to hit the club & responsible officers who thought that safety could be provided by so inadequate a construction. Lawyers would look for what's in use, is best practice & does work.
Then the stuff will hit the fan.
Enough for now?
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: ca...@carldouglasrowing.com Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: carldouglasrowing.com & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells
On 14/07/2023 21:23, Roman Sammartino wrote:tie approach - but only by a little. Nota bene: this goes back to his very correct ranting against people using zip ties as tie downs several years ago.
On Friday, July 14, 2023 at 11:14:24 AM UTC-6, carl wrote:
On 14/07/2023 12:54, don Vickers wrote:
On Thursday, July 13, 2023 at 5:33:32 PM UTC-4, carl wrote:
On 13/07/2023 20:59, don Vickers wrote:
On Thursday, July 13, 2023 at 5:36:04 AM UTC-4, Kit Davies wrote: >>>>>> On 13/07/2023 08:04, James HS wrote:
I commented on this article at Row2K last year when it was just a couple of weeks old. It appears that my observation was taken to heart to an extent. Clearly, these CAN be a matter of life or death. It is better than Carl’s ‘favourite’ zipDo we think this would last the test of time, or the actual use? >>>>>>>The link in the article says those clips are made of aluminium. I >>>>>> wouldn't trust those to withstand anything but the weakest yank. >>>>>>
https://www.row2k.com/features/5824/rowing-hack--carabiner-clipped-heels/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl07122023
I like the thought of a simple heel restraint swap ability - happens so often in club boats.
You (the club) could control the length and control the knot tying - I would not trust individuals, but concerned it could deteriorate over time!
James
They do mention there are titanium alternatives though I couldn't find
them. Larger stainless steel would be better IMHO.
Kit
especially if it is carbon steel. It is also POSSIBLE that the locking arm gets dislodged by some object or force.
Even if you implement this with a device with sufficient tensile strength, I would be concerned about the locking arm staying in place. These are hidden from normal view and almost never inspected. The spring may break or weaken over time,
to remove and insert.
The desire to save time in changing shoes is reasonable. I suggest that a better approach might be to use a stainless shackle that has a screw locking pin. This provides the tensile strength and a more reliable attachment with a small added time
No apologies needed, Don! We stand on the same side of that safetyCarl,Don -
With respect, I am unaware that I have ever recommended a Zip-tie in >>>> place of a proper heel cord. Some other Carl, perhaps?
I have viewed that article & am frankly appalled. It proposes a trivial >>>> piece of "tat", displaying a serious lack awareness of the vital safety >>>> function of the heel cord system.
Heel cords are a vexed issue in part because nearly every
fully-adjustable stretcher out there incorporates 1 totally redundant >>>> component - the shoe plate. We've been fitting fully-adjustable
stretchers to boats, providing swift & secure adjustment of shoe height >>>> and inclination, for several decades.
The problem with any stretcher on which the shoes come mounted on a >>>> moveable shoe plate is that changing the shoe height changes the amount >>>> of heel lift because the shoes move WRT the board while the cord
attachment point is fixed WRT the board.
Adjusting the height of the shoes on our stretchers has not the
slightest effect on the setting of the heel cords - because the shoe >>>> does not move WRT the stretcher board.
I haven't time to take this further now, but may return to elaborate on >>>> the matter tomorrow.
Carl
I apologise for making a poor joke and not making it clear that it was inverse and, possibly, perverse. The reason I enclosed favourite in quotes was to help in that regard.
My reference was from a series of discussions several years ago about heel tie downs where zip ties had been suggested and you rightly pointed out that they were a horrible idea.
Humour in text can be confusing the hands of amateurs.
My apologies,
don
fence, as on many others.
But I do have a huge problem with the supposed authorities in our sport >> &, indeed, with those who propose modifications to essential safety
devices but dare not personally test & evaluate them, let alone testing >> under under realistic conditions.
Cheers -
Carl
I think the approach in the article is super practical. All of the criticisms in this thread I think are shortsighted and unrealistic:
Do you think alumnium is going to be weaker than a shoe lace!?
The lace length is going to be set by whomever ties them--regardless of the restraint system: traditional, clip or, zip tie.
So you really think that that cheap little carabiner, with an admitted breaking load (if lucky) of 33lb (15kg), is adequate to save a life?
And you think that whatever arbitrary length of cord the user chooses is right, & that it will save their life if they get it wrong?
And you think it unnecessary to use a stronger cord, fitted so that it cannot chafe & with a knot that cannot come loose?
And you think that the person who devised, tested & established the essential criteria for the heel restraint system is short-sighted and unrealistic?
I'm guessing you've never seen someone trapped in their boat, nor known
of people who died as a result. What makes you such an expert that you
can dismiss the concerns of those who have? That is the kind of
ignorance that kills.
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
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