So it is Eggs, Apple strudel and Espresso talk today.
Keeping on current events
7. Pele, greatest of all time? Oh that is a topic which no one will agree upon. Up until 10 years ago or so, I would have considered Pele the greatest, even if I only really saw him playing in NASL, I know I had seen him in clips of WC's and playing
for Santos, but a little bit before my time. The thing is his legend was so big, it was just a given he was the greatest of all time, even if players like Puskas or Di Stefano could be considered all time greatest of that era as well. But no it was
Pele, you did not even mention any one else. Today though, it is hard for me to not say Messi is the greatest of all time. I remember years ago, my Chilean friends thought Maradonna was greater than Pele ( which is weird since all Chileans consider
Argies Mericons). But it boils down to who you saw paly when you were playing, like I bet there are many English men who think Gascoine was the greatest player ever.

8. The Worth of managers in football. I am sure everyone knows I think the whole football manger value is overblown, it is even gone to the national team managers, where I read such ridiculous stuff about managers and national teams. Obviously you can
have better managers, just like you would in a Burger king, but does a good Burger King manager mean the fries taste better? Today we have managers being credited and blamaed for every single thing that goes on. No one even knows the name of the Argie
manager who won the World Cup, or all the different managers Real have had that won the UCL. In fact no one seems to give Zizou any credit as a manager, when he is one of the managers that players actually look up to. If Pele was so great, why didnt he
ever manage a club or Brazil.

9. And just to keep with the MGR. topic, OK, just a rumour, but a foreign manager for Brazil? I wanna say, Germany, Italy, France, Spain, maybe Argentina have never had foreign managers, but everyone else has. Is it legal? Is it moral to have foreign
managers for a national team? There is no way Brazilians will go for it? Will they? Been a long time since they won a WC, even the Argies just won one!


On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 10:06:27 a.m. UTC-5, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:

On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 5:48:53 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:

On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 2:49:18 PM UTC, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:

On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 5:52:33 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:

On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 2:56:59 PM UTC, Binder Dundat wrote:

Coffee and Stollen actually, which some might say is more a fruit bread then a cake

1. The World Cup in winter, good or bad?
In general bad and that might be more because we are so used to having it in the summer, but also it seems weird to have it in the middle of the season, the disruption just seems wrong. I think the clubs and ligas dont like it, like this season

is such a write off already, it just makes every thing seem so unreal.

The World Cup is always played in the middle of the season. Ask the Brazilians. What's the difference between being in the middle of the season for Spain and being in the middle of the season for Brazil?

Very few people outside South America watch South American leagues. Billions around the globe watch the top European leagues. That's the very obvious difference.

I doubt if that's true.

You are quite detached from reality. More people watch the Chinese and Mexican leagues than any South American league.

https://www.redbull.com/us-en/most-watched-soccer-leagues

But even if it was, I don't think it would make much difference to the fans. Wouldn't it be more the players that would be affected?

You realize that most South American WC players play in Europe, don't you? In fact, the Saudi and Qatari leagues were better represented in the WC than South American leagues. This might help:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1345544/league-most-world-cup-players/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2022-12-30 11:03, Binder Dundat wrote:

So it is Eggs, Apple strudel and Espresso talk today.
Keeping on current events
7. Pele, greatest of all time? Oh that is a topic which no one will agree upon. Up until 10 years ago or so, I would have considered Pele the greatest, even if I only really saw him playing in NASL, I know I had seen him in clips of WC's and playing

for Santos, but a little bit before my time. The thing is his legend was so big, it was just a given he was the greatest of all time, even if players like Puskas or Di Stefano could be considered all time greatest of that era as well. But no it was
Pele, you did not even mention any one else. Today though, it is hard for me to not say Messi is the greatest of all time. I remember years ago, my Chilean friends thought Maradonna was greater than Pele ( which is weird since all Chileans consider
Argies Mericons). But it boils down to who you saw paly when you were playing, like I bet there are many English men who think Gascoine was the greatest player ever.

8. The Worth of managers in football. I am sure everyone knows I think the whole football manger value is overblown, it is even gone to the national team managers, where I read such ridiculous stuff about managers and national teams. Obviously you

can have better managers, just like you would in a Burger king, but does a good Burger King manager mean the fries taste better? Today we have managers being credited and blamaed for every single thing that goes on. No one even knows the name of the
Argie manager who won the World Cup, or all the different managers Real have had that won the UCL. In fact no one seems to give Zizou any credit as a manager, when he is one of the managers that players actually look up to. If Pele was so great, why
didnt he ever manage a club or Brazil.

I wonder how many people know who managed/coached Brazil in 1958 or 1962
? we hear so much about those teams, but the coaches get little mention
(maybe they were folk heros in Brazil, I dunno)

Scaloni has never actually coached a club team, and came up through the
junior ranks in the Argentine system. I remember him as a useful squad member, but not much more, with Deportivo La Coruña back in the early 2000s.

9. And just to keep with the MGR. topic, OK, just a rumour, but a foreign manager for Brazil? I wanna say, Germany, Italy, France

France had a Romanian before Hidalgo (Kovacs). Spain had Helenio
Herrera for a while. Also Kubala.


, Spain, maybe Argentina have never had foreign managers, but everyone
else has. Is it legal? Is it moral to have foreign managers for a
national team? There is no way Brazilians will go for it? Will they?
Been a long time since they won a WC, even the Argies just won one!



--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

A wet rainy New years here on the iceberg, so no Coffee or tea, but starting off with a couple of Becks and chicken tenders for "Brunch", I dont really care for Oranje juice and fake Champers, or real champagne and OJ or Brunch for that matter. But Lets
go to number 10

10. I am watching the WWEpl this morn and is the Arse for real? manc City lost 1-1 to Everton at home but here is Arsenal leading comfortably enough 2-0 at the half. Are they for real? I dont know how they are doing it, but they are somehow. Are
they for real? I am gonna say yes. I wonder if Doc Who thinks so?



On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 8:11:06 p.m. UTC-5, MH wrote:

On 2022-12-30 11:03, Binder Dundat wrote:

So it is Eggs, Apple strudel and Espresso talk today.
Keeping on current events
7. Pele, greatest of all time? Oh that is a topic which no one will agree upon. Up until 10 years ago or so, I would have considered Pele the greatest, even if I only really saw him playing in NASL, I know I had seen him in clips of WC's and playing

for Santos, but a little bit before my time. The thing is his legend was so big, it was just a given he was the greatest of all time, even if players like Puskas or Di Stefano could be considered all time greatest of that era as well. But no it was Pele,
you did not even mention any one else. Today though, it is hard for me to not say Messi is the greatest of all time. I remember years ago, my Chilean friends thought Maradonna was greater than Pele ( which is weird since all Chileans consider Argies
Mericons). But it boils down to who you saw paly when you were playing, like I bet there are many English men who think Gascoine was the greatest player ever.

8. The Worth of managers in football. I am sure everyone knows I think the whole football manger value is overblown, it is even gone to the national team managers, where I read such ridiculous stuff about managers and national teams. Obviously you

can have better managers, just like you would in a Burger king, but does a good Burger King manager mean the fries taste better? Today we have managers being credited and blamaed for every single thing that goes on. No one even knows the name of the
Argie manager who won the World Cup, or all the different managers Real have had that won the UCL. In fact no one seems to give Zizou any credit as a manager, when he is one of the managers that players actually look up to. If Pele was so great, why
didnt he ever manage a club or Brazil.

I wonder how many people know who managed/coached Brazil in 1958 or 1962
? we hear so much about those teams, but the coaches get little mention (maybe they were folk heros in Brazil, I dunno)

Scaloni has never actually coached a club team, and came up through the junior ranks in the Argentine system. I remember him as a useful squad member, but not much more, with Deportivo La Coruña back in the early 2000s.

9. And just to keep with the MGR. topic, OK, just a rumour, but a foreign manager for Brazil? I wanna say, Germany, Italy, France

France had a Romanian before Hidalgo (Kovacs). Spain had Helenio
Herrera for a while. Also Kubala.
, Spain, maybe Argentina have never had foreign managers, but everyone
else has. Is it legal? Is it moral to have foreign managers for a
national team? There is no way Brazilians will go for it? Will they?
Been a long time since they won a WC, even the Argies just won one!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 6:03:25 PM UTC, Binder Dundat wrote:

So it is Eggs, Apple strudel and Espresso talk today.

Yum. When I've finally received my stollen and eaten it, I'll look forward to some apple strudel.

Keeping on current events
7. Pele, greatest of all time? Oh that is a topic which no one will agree upon. Up until 10 years ago or so, I would have considered Pele the greatest, even if I only really saw him playing in NASL, I know I had seen him in clips of WC's and playing

for Santos, but a little bit before my time. The thing is his legend was so big, it was just a given he was the greatest of all time, even if players like Puskas or Di Stefano could be considered all time greatest of that era as well. But no it was Pele,
you did not even mention any one else. Today though, it is hard for me to not say Messi is the greatest of all time. I remember years ago, my Chilean friends thought Maradonna was greater than Pele ( which is weird since all Chileans consider Argies
Mericons). But it boils down to who you saw paly when you were playing, like I bet there are many English men who think Gascoine was the greatest player ever.

I think Pele is the greatest of all time. Even in xenophobic England he's a household name! How many other players that have never played for an English team are household name's in England? As far as I know not even Alfredo di Stefano, Lev Yashin or
Franz Beckenbauer. And he won 3 World Cups, 2 World Club Championships, and 2 Copa Libertadores, scored over 1,000 goals, an average of nearly a goal per game, and was the top scorer at the Copa America in, I think, 1959.

8. The Worth of managers in football. I am sure everyone knows I think the whole football manger value is overblown, it is even gone to the national team managers, where I read such ridiculous stuff about managers and national teams. Obviously you can

have better managers, just like you would in a Burger king, but does a good Burger King manager mean the fries taste better? Today we have managers being credited and blamaed for every single thing that goes on. No one even knows the name of the Argie
manager who won the World Cup, or all the different managers Real have had that won the UCL. In fact no one seems to give Zizou any credit as a manager, when he is one of the managers that players actually look up to. If Pele was so great, why didnt he
ever manage a club or Brazil.

I know all the Argentinian managers that have won the World Cup. Very few of the Real Madrid managers that have won the CL though. There is evidence that coaches make a difference. Arrigo Sacchi at Milan and the Italian national team; Fabio Capello at
Milan and at Real Madrid in 1998 and in 2008; Carlos Bianchi at Boca Juniors in 2000 and 2001, and then after a year of them achieving relatively little, when he returned in 2003.

Anyway, nobody's answered my question in the other thread, so I'll ask here as it's a sort of casual-discussion kind of question that fits in this kind of thread. Should I include my prediction for the 2022 Club World Cup in my pre-season predictions for
2023? or does that really count as 2022?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2022-12-31, Binder Dundat <dundat@gmail.com> wrote:

10. I am watching the WWEpl this morn and is the Arse for real?
manc City lost 1-1 to Everton at home but here is Arsenal leading
comfortably enough 2-0 at the half. Are they for real? I dont know
how they are doing it, but they are somehow. Are they for real? I
am gonna say yes. I wonder if Doc Who thinks so?

Maybe. But they made it interesting in the end (with a perfect
example of how they cut the offside decisions too tight in VAR...
both men running away from goal, one trailing foot puts the player
offside!). And it's only 16 or 17 rounds in.

Poor Leicester, with those two own goals in a few minutes...

--
ciao, Bruce

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 12:28:35 PM UTC, Mark wrote:

There is evidence that coaches make a difference. Arrigo Sacchi at Milan and the Italian national team; Fabio Capello at Milan and at Real Madrid in 1998 and in 2008;

Oops. I meant 1997 and 2007.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 10:06:27 AM UTC-5, Al Kamista wrote:

On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 5:48:53 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:

On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 2:49:18 PM UTC, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:

On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 5:52:33 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:

On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 2:56:59 PM UTC, Binder Dundat wrote:

Coffee and Stollen actually, which some might say is more a fruit bread then a cake

1. The World Cup in winter, good or bad?
In general bad and that might be more because we are so used to having it in the summer, but also it seems weird to have it in the middle of the season, the disruption just seems wrong. I think the clubs and ligas dont like it, like this season

is such a write off already, it just makes every thing seem so unreal.

The World Cup is always played in the middle of the season. Ask the Brazilians. What's the difference between being in the middle of the season for Spain and being in the middle of the season for Brazil?

Very few people outside South America watch South American leagues. Billions around the globe watch the top European leagues. That's the very obvious difference.

I doubt if that's true.

You are quite detached from reality. More people watch the Chinese and Mexican leagues than any South American league.

https://www.redbull.com/us-en/most-watched-soccer-leagues

But even if it was, I don't think it would make much difference to the fans. Wouldn't it be more the players that would be affected?

You realize that most South American WC players play in Europe, don't you? In fact, the Saudi and Qatari leagues were better represented in the WC than South American leagues. This might help:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1345544/league-most-world-cup-players/

Mark, it would be good to see you acknowledge (or refute) facts/data that undermine your perceptions.

Otherwise you look like you're being deliberately dishonest.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 8:34:16 PM UTC, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:

On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 10:06:27 AM UTC-5, Al Kamista wrote:

On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 5:48:53 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:

On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 2:49:18 PM UTC, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:

On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 5:52:33 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:

On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 2:56:59 PM UTC, Binder Dundat wrote:

Coffee and Stollen actually, which some might say is more a fruit bread then a cake

1. The World Cup in winter, good or bad?
In general bad and that might be more because we are so used to having it in the summer, but also it seems weird to have it in the middle of the season, the disruption just seems wrong. I think the clubs and ligas dont like it, like this

season is such a write off already, it just makes every thing seem so unreal.

The World Cup is always played in the middle of the season. Ask the Brazilians. What's the difference between being in the middle of the season for Spain and being in the middle of the season for Brazil?

Very few people outside South America watch South American leagues. Billions around the globe watch the top European leagues. That's the very obvious difference.

I doubt if that's true.

You are quite detached from reality. More people watch the Chinese and Mexican leagues than any South American league.

https://www.redbull.com/us-en/most-watched-soccer-leagues

But even if it was, I don't think it would make much difference to the fans. Wouldn't it be more the players that would be affected?

You realize that most South American WC players play in Europe, don't you? In fact, the Saudi and Qatari leagues were better represented in the WC than South American leagues. This might help:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1345544/league-most-world-cup-players/

Mark, it would be good to see you acknowledge (or refute) facts/data that undermine your perceptions.

Otherwise you look like you're being deliberately dishonest.

Well the most watched soccer leagues link seemed questionable. Their figures seemed strange, and I'd like to know what their source is. Even if their figures are accurate, only 2 of the top European Leagues are watched by billions, and there's no
evidence that very few people outside South America watch South American leagues. And there's also the fact that about 1.4 billion people live in China, so that might explain why so many people watch the Chinese League.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 6:38:10 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:

On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 8:34:16 PM UTC, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:

On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 10:06:27 AM UTC-5, Al Kamista wrote:

On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 5:48:53 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:

On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 2:49:18 PM UTC, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:

On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 5:52:33 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:

On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 2:56:59 PM UTC, Binder Dundat wrote:

Coffee and Stollen actually, which some might say is more a fruit bread then a cake

1. The World Cup in winter, good or bad?
In general bad and that might be more because we are so used to having it in the summer, but also it seems weird to have it in the middle of the season, the disruption just seems wrong. I think the clubs and ligas dont like it, like this

season is such a write off already, it just makes every thing seem so unreal.

The World Cup is always played in the middle of the season. Ask the Brazilians. What's the difference between being in the middle of the season for Spain and being in the middle of the season for Brazil?

Very few people outside South America watch South American leagues. Billions around the globe watch the top European leagues. That's the very obvious difference.

I doubt if that's true.

You are quite detached from reality. More people watch the Chinese and Mexican leagues than any South American league.

https://www.redbull.com/us-en/most-watched-soccer-leagues

But even if it was, I don't think it would make much difference to the fans. Wouldn't it be more the players that would be affected?

You realize that most South American WC players play in Europe, don't you? In fact, the Saudi and Qatari leagues were better represented in the WC than South American leagues. This might help:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1345544/league-most-world-cup-players/

Mark, it would be good to see you acknowledge (or refute) facts/data that undermine your perceptions.

Otherwise you look like you're being deliberately dishonest.

Well the most watched soccer leagues link seemed questionable. Their figures seemed strange, and I'd like to know what their source is.

I assume you know how to use Google search?

Please do you own research and come back and disprove that South American leagues have far lower viewership than top European leagues. Of course, any knowledgable football fan with an even average IQ will know that without researching it.

I look forward to your response.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 12:49:29 AM UTC-5, MH wrote:

On 2022-12-27 11:05, Real Mardin wrote:

When I was young all baskets in basketball counted for only 2 points. I
have heard it argued (by people complaining about hockey and the lack of scoring because GKs are so much bigger and better, and everything is all jammed up) that the introduction of the three pointer revolutionized the game of basketball by opening up space. And obviously teams do NOT
focus entirely on three pointers.

The amazing thing is that three-pointers in basketball were introduced in the NBA in the 1979-1980 season (and a few years later in the international game); yet, it took coaches and analysts about 30 years to figure out that a 3-point shot with a 35%
success rate is better than a 2-point shot with a 50% success rate (and a corner three, where the distance to the basket is slightly smaller, is even better).(*) Basketball today is almost unrecognizable from what it was 10-15 years ago. I would argue
that it has mostly been for the better, even though some fans argue that the pendulum has swung too far and there have been calls to modify the three-point rule in some way.

The same thing is happening in soccer now. The development of xG has made coaches realize that shots from distance are generally a bad choice, and they have been declining across the board. Average xG per shot for selected top strikers:

Lewandowski: 0.06 (outside the box), 0.21 (inside the box), 0.5 (inside 6 yard box)
CRon: 0.04, 0.19, 0.42
Messi: 0.06, 0.20, 0.51
Kane: 0.04, 0.19, 0.41
Haaland: 0.07, 0.21, 0.57
Higuain: 0.04, 0.17, 0.38
Mbappe: 0.04, 0.20, 0.49
Suarez: 0.05, 0.21, 0.42


So, based on this very incomplete sample, it looks as if shots from inside the box have on average a 20% success rate, versus about 5% for shots outside the box. Since every goal is worth 1 point, it is indeed almost crazy that people are still taking
shots from outside the box. (OK, that's not exactly a correct argument: the correct question is, are you better off taking a very low probability shot from 25 meters out, or keep possession to try and get a better shot off? And how likely are you to
indeed get a better shot?)


(*) Baseball is even more amazing: it took more than 100 years to figure out that a base on balls was just as valuable as a single? (In fact, probably more, if you take into account the effect of tiring out the pitcher...)

So while I don't particularly like Binder's proposal above, it can
certainly be argued that it has merit.

Yep, at 2:1, it should encourage a bit more shooting from outside the box, even though it still looks far from optimal. Make it 3:1?

I would rather do away with the penalty area altogether. A foul is a
foul, and is a direct free kick. Would reduce diving and VAR nonsense.
PKs only (as in hockey) for fouls that quite clearly deny an obvious
high odds goalscoring opportunity.

The problem with that is that it would decrease the amount of scoring. I don't think the game should move in that direction.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 8:54:49 PM UTC, Futbolmetrix wrote:

The same thing is happening in soccer now. The development of xG has made coaches realize that shots from distance are generally a bad choice, and they have been declining across the board.

What is xG?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 6:18:09 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:

On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 8:54:49 PM UTC, Futbolmetrix wrote:

The same thing is happening in soccer now. The development of xG has made coaches realize that shots from distance are generally a bad choice, and they have been declining across the board.

What is xG?

It's short for Expected Goals. There are a bunch of explainers around:

https://fbref.com/en/expected-goals-model-explained/ https://statsbomb.com/soccer-metrics/expected-goals-xg-explained/

From the first link: "Very simply, xG (or expected goals) is the probability that a shot will result in a goal based on the characteristics of that shot and the events leading up to it."

In a nutshell, it's a way of quantifying concepts that we are all familiar with when watching football matches:
"How on earth did he miss that?" --> xG >0.5
"A striker of his quality is expected to score from there" --> xG about 0.2 "That was a hopeful attempt" --> xG < 0.05

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2023-01-10 16:28, Futbolmetrix wrote:

On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 6:18:09 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:

On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 8:54:49 PM UTC, Futbolmetrix wrote:

The same thing is happening in soccer now. The development of xG has made coaches realize that shots from distance are generally a bad choice, and they have been declining across the board.

What is xG?

It's short for Expected Goals. There are a bunch of explainers around:

https://fbref.com/en/expected-goals-model-explained/ https://statsbomb.com/soccer-metrics/expected-goals-xg-explained/

From the first link: "Very simply, xG (or expected goals) is the probability that a shot will result in a goal based on the characteristics of that shot and the events leading up to it."

In a nutshell, it's a way of quantifying concepts that we are all familiar with when watching football matches:
"How on earth did he miss that?" --> xG >0.5
"A striker of his quality is expected to score from there" --> xG about 0.2 "That was a hopeful attempt" --> xG < 0.05

Is a penalty kick not 0.76 or something like that ?





--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 10:15:09 PM UTC-5, MH wrote:

Is a penalty kick not 0.76 or something like that ?

Something like that. I see that fbref now assigns penalties an xG of 0.79 (independent of the shooter, as far as I can tell)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)