• Meat eating and human evolution from talk.origins

    From DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_l@21:1/5 to All on Tue Feb 1 09:19:23 2022
    Topic: Meat eating and human evolution from talk.origins

    Sorry Jillery, I missed your post, pasted below with my response.

    Q at SAP: Why do we find millions of stone tools yet almost no Homo fossils?

    No mystery, Homo lived, died, decomposed and got recycled in forests, while their stone tools accumulated, mostly along waterways; large handaxes & choppers/cleavers/chisels better preserved than the thin flake tools.

    Homo, being in nomadic terrestrial groups, moved their camps up and down a stream (Like pygmies they camped up to 50m from water's edge), then moved to the next stream, etc. If they had been sedentary, their middens would have accumulated.

    Q: Was there a utility link between small sharp stone flakes used to slice meat and their domeshield portable shelters?

    Pygmies slit the stems of large Ngongo broad-leaves and clothespin them to the wicker frame of their dome huts, in overlapping shingles fashion. Ancient Homo did the same with their portable domeshields, and used the same slit & pin method to hang and
    cure ultra-thin meat slices at streamside (sunnier there than under the forest canopy) long before fire was domesticated. Pygmies instead smoke chunks of meat, a faster process.

    How'd they hunt giant forest hogs?

    Killing a boar or sow required a strong sharp spear, the hunters stood behind shields next to trees. When charged they jabbed, and climbed 2' up the tree, safe since the boar couldn't raise it's head high, unlike a bull or stag. (In Borneo, a hunter
    places the spear butt down and stands on it, the boar impales itself on the point during the charge.)
    -

    UV & Dead Sea & pork prohibition

    Jillery:
    Point of pedantry: Dead Sea lowlands have *reduced* ultraviolet levels, due to its increased atmosphere, as compared to highland regions. The proof is snowbirds still get burned during vacations
    there.

    Visitors always go to nearby cities above the basin (airports are there) and exposed to higher UV. UVB causes sunburn, UVA causes deeper skin aging.

    I have also claimed that people who lived in the Dead Sea basin evolved skin with less melanin similar to those in NW Europe (cloudier due to Gulf stream) than people living where UV was full strength.

    "After recently visiting the Dead Sea in Israel and not getting any skin burns, I was wondering about the reasons for that. Searching the literature, it seems that the UV radiation is indeed lower in the Dead Sea (ca. -400 m) compared to Beer Sheva (a
    nearby city at ca. +300 m): 1 2 3. Both UVA and UVB rays are lower, but UVB rays are attenuated the most."
    https://earthscience.stackexchange.com/questions/2711/what-are-the-causes-of-lower-uv-radiation-at-lower-elevations#:~:text=Searching%20the%20literature%2C%20it%20seems,rays%20are%20attenuated%20the%20most.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea

    Do you have any documentation which shows that normal ultraviolet levels are sufficient by themselves to kill trichninella cysts?
    Perhaps the dessication that happens with creating "meat chips" as you describe contributes.

    The motile larvae in muscle are killed by UV, most in 10 minutes, virtually all in 1-2 hours, if I'm reading this paper correctly, (note that the disease depends on the quantity of parasitical worms, a few do little damage to a large host, but may weaken
    a small host.) https://www.cabdirect.org/cabdirect/mobile/abstract/19432900562

    The effect on the cysts? I don't know, but reading this "However, the use of (gamma) irradiation in meat was first approved for pork to control Trichinella spiralis in 1985 and then fresh and frozen poultry meat to control microorganisms in 1990" makes
    me think it is also highly effective against larval cysts.

    I note that many tests done on various meats & parasites use meat slices of 3cm thick = +1", like a thick pork chop, which is *much* thicker than what I referred to as 'ultra-thin slices' such as done with prosciutto and serrano.

    In sum, I think that consistently thin slicing and wind-sun drying (perhaps after washing/salting when available) reduced infectious transmission of most meat parasites to a sustainable level long before fire & smoke were used regularly.

    The 'kitchen tools' used to process meat and bulbous USO roots/rhysomes were the same as those used to construct shelters, a biface handaxe, some thin sharp stone flakes, clothespin leafstems, wicker. The residues found on some ancient stone tools
    include various animal and plant tissues (but no mollusc) which might support that.

    DD

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  • From DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_l@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 4 17:58:29 2022
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 12:19:24 PM UTC-5, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
    Topic: Meat eating and human evolution from talk.origins

    Sorry Jillery, I missed your post, pasted below with my response.

    Q at SAP: Why do we find millions of stone tools yet almost no Homo fossils?

    No mystery, Homo lived, died, decomposed and got recycled in forests, while their stone tools accumulated, mostly along waterways; large handaxes & choppers/cleavers/chisels better preserved than the thin flake tools.

    Homo, being in nomadic terrestrial groups, moved their camps up and down a stream (Like pygmies they camped up to 50m from water's edge), then moved to the next stream, etc. If they had been sedentary, their middens would have accumulated.

    Q: Was there a utility link between small sharp stone flakes used to slice meat and their domeshield portable shelters?

    Pygmies slit the stems of large Ngongo broad-leaves and clothespin them to the wicker frame of their dome huts, in overlapping shingles fashion. Ancient Homo did the same with their portable domeshields, and used the same slit & pin method to hang and
    cure ultra-thin meat slices at streamside (sunnier there than under the forest canopy) long before fire was domesticated. Pygmies instead smoke chunks of meat, a faster process.

    How'd they hunt giant forest hogs?

    Killing a boar or sow required a strong sharp spear, the hunters stood behind shields next to trees. When charged they jabbed, and climbed 2' up the tree, safe since the boar couldn't raise it's head high, unlike a bull or stag. (In Borneo, a hunter
    places the spear butt down and stands on it, the boar impales itself on the point during the charge.)
    -

    UV & Dead Sea & pork prohibition

    Jillery:
    Point of pedantry: Dead Sea lowlands have *reduced* ultraviolet levels, due to its increased atmosphere, as compared to highland regions. The proof is snowbirds still get burned during vacations
    there.

    Visitors always go to nearby cities above the basin (airports are there) and exposed to higher UV. UVB causes sunburn, UVA causes deeper skin aging.

    I have also claimed that people who lived in the Dead Sea basin evolved skin with less melanin similar to those in NW Europe (cloudier due to Gulf stream) than people living where UV was full strength.

    "After recently visiting the Dead Sea in Israel and not getting any skin burns, I was wondering about the reasons for that. Searching the literature, it seems that the UV radiation is indeed lower in the Dead Sea (ca. -400 m) compared to Beer Sheva (a
    nearby city at ca. +300 m): 1 2 3. Both UVA and UVB rays are lower, but UVB rays are attenuated the most."
    https://earthscience.stackexchange.com/questions/2711/what-are-the-causes-of-lower-uv-radiation-at-lower-elevations#:~:text=Searching%20the%20literature%2C%20it%20seems,rays%20are%20attenuated%20the%20most.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea

    Do you have any documentation which shows that normal ultraviolet levels are sufficient by themselves to kill trichninella cysts?
    Perhaps the dessication that happens with creating "meat chips" as you describe contributes.

    The motile larvae in muscle are killed by UV, most in 10 minutes, virtually all in 1-2 hours, if I'm reading this paper correctly, (note that the disease depends on the quantity of parasitical worms, a few do little damage to a large host, but may
    weaken a small host.) https://www.cabdirect.org/cabdirect/mobile/abstract/19432900562

    The effect on the cysts? I don't know, but reading this "However, the use of (gamma) irradiation in meat was first approved for pork to control Trichinella spiralis in 1985 and then fresh and frozen poultry meat to control microorganisms in 1990" makes
    me think it is also highly effective against larval cysts.

    I note that many tests done on various meats & parasites use meat slices of 3cm thick = +1", like a thick pork chop, which is *much* thicker than what I referred to as 'ultra-thin slices' such as done with prosciutto and serrano.

    In sum, I think that consistently thin slicing and wind-sun drying (perhaps after washing/salting when available) reduced infectious transmission of most meat parasites to a sustainable level long before fire & smoke were used regularly.

    The 'kitchen tools' used to process meat and bulbous USO roots/rhysomes were the same as those used to construct shelters, a biface handaxe, some thin sharp stone flakes, clothespin leafstems, wicker. The residues found on some ancient stone tools
    include various animal and plant tissues (but no mollusc) which might support that.

    DD

    Interview with author of Meat eating article on NPR:

    https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/meat-eating-human-evolution/

    Greg Laden's response: They were busy cooking roots, not really time to hunt much more.

    My response: Before domesticated fire, they were using thin sharp flakes to cut ultra-thin slices of meat, USO roots and tough fruits, sun/wind drying them (UV killed most endoparasites), and chewing them like gum.

    Charles Darwin began writing his book The Descent of Man #OnThisDay, 1868. “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will
    never be solved by science." https://t.co/jhhyPhsFYP

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  • From DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_l@21:1/5 to littor...@gmail.com on Sun Feb 6 00:40:02 2022
    On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:28:44 AM UTC-5, littor...@gmail.com wrote:
    My response: Before domesticated fire, they were using thin sharp flakes to cut ultra-thin slices of meat
    :-DDD

    DD, you're becoming more & more ridiculous.
    I don't read further.

    Why no mollusc proteins found on handaxe "oyster shuckers"??

    Why would littoral semi-aquatic fauna cook their food away from the water??

    Why did Homo make small thin sharp flakes from flint??

    Go eat some prosciutto...
    -
    is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert

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  • From littoral.homo@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 6 00:28:43 2022
    My response: Before domesticated fire, they were using thin sharp flakes to cut ultra-thin slices of meat

    :-DDD

    DD, you're becoming more & more ridiculous.
    I don't read further.

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  • From I Envy JTEM@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 7 13:05:48 2022
    Meat Eating is currently a political issue.

    It's not science. It's not morality. It's politics. It's policy.

    Well, "Meat Eating" isn't policy, taking meat away from the
    worthless plebs (more like serfs) is the policy...

    Here:

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.global-warming/c/D-hxhp2HgNw/m/nae9Up-fCAAJ

    Native Americans followed the buffalo herds but didn't hunt then,
    weren't eating the meat, they were harvesting the weeds that grew
    in the wake of those herds... even if those weeds were largely
    inedible.

    This was actually reported. As science. As fact.

    We all know humans are meat eaters. That, we went from eating
    seafood to spreading inland, eating animals but, meat is too good
    for "The Bottom" 80 to 99% of the people, so roll out the propaganda!

    Drink milk? Well, according to the propaganda machine that makes
    you a Nazi, a white supremacist:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/17/us/white-supremacists-science-dna.html

    If you can't open the page, just do the Google on: Milk white supremacists

    Cruise ships are destroying the oceans! But not the private yachts of the rich:

    https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/yachts-be-exempt-eus-carbon-pricing-plan

    IF YOU FLY ON A COMMERCIAL AIRLINER YOU'RE SATAN! But if you're rich and
    tool around on private plane then you're okay:

    https://www.argusmedia.com/en/news/2231434-eu-draft-exempts-private-jets-cargo-from-jet-fuel-tax

    It's all bullshit. Pure propaganda.

    There's no science anymore. There's only the 1% and everything else is the tool of the 1%. It's just a means to an end.

    And in the end they don't give a shit about you, me, where humanity came from or the record of our evolution. What they care about is more power, more wealth and more control over you.

    Why publish story after story after story claiming that ice raises water levels as
    it melts?

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.atheism/c/6O3k8j0CkL0/m/L7jswwGlAQAJ

    And don't just read my post, read the replies! Not one person admits that, yes, it's all fake news, pseudo science. The closest to agreement is some troll hiding behind sock puppets, saying shit as stupid as the morons "Disagreeing."

    There's no science. There's only obedience.




    -- --

    https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/675291142599884800

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  • From DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_l@21:1/5 to I Envy JTEM on Mon Feb 7 16:59:41 2022
    On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 4:05:49 PM UTC-5, I Envy JTEM wrote:
    Meat Eating is currently a political issue.

    It's not science. It's not morality. It's politics. It's policy.

    Well, "Meat Eating" isn't policy, taking meat away from the
    worthless plebs (more like serfs) is the policy...

    Here:

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.global-warming/c/D-hxhp2HgNw/m/nae9Up-fCAAJ

    Native Americans followed the buffalo herds but didn't hunt then,
    weren't eating the meat, they were harvesting the weeds that grew
    in the wake of those herds... even if those weeds were largely
    inedible.

    This was actually reported. As science. As fact.

    We all know humans are meat eaters. That, we went from eating
    seafood to spreading inland, eating animals but, meat is too good
    for "The Bottom" 80 to 99% of the people, so roll out the propaganda!

    Drink milk? Well, according to the propaganda machine that makes
    you a Nazi, a white supremacist:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/17/us/white-supremacists-science-dna.html

    If you can't open the page, just do the Google on: Milk white supremacists

    Cruise ships are destroying the oceans! But not the private yachts of the rich:

    https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/yachts-be-exempt-eus-carbon-pricing-plan

    IF YOU FLY ON A COMMERCIAL AIRLINER YOU'RE SATAN! But if you're rich and
    tool around on private plane then you're okay:

    https://www.argusmedia.com/en/news/2231434-eu-draft-exempts-private-jets-cargo-from-jet-fuel-tax

    It's all bullshit. Pure propaganda.

    There's no science anymore. There's only the 1% and everything else is the tool
    of the 1%. It's just a means to an end.

    And in the end they don't give a shit about you, me, where humanity came from or the record of our evolution. What they care about is more power, more wealth
    and more control over you.

    Why publish story after story after story claiming that ice raises water levels as
    it melts?

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.atheism/c/6O3k8j0CkL0/m/L7jswwGlAQAJ

    And don't just read my post, read the replies! Not one person admits that, yes,
    it's all fake news, pseudo science. The closest to agreement is some troll hiding behind sock puppets, saying shit as stupid as the morons "Disagreeing."

    There's no science. There's only obedience.




    -- --

    https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/675291142599884800

    Jerm fails again.

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From I Envy JTEM@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 7 19:13:49 2022
    Wow, you couldn't grasp any of the cites!

    I suppose that goes without saying. What I should have said is that
    you couldn't even read the cites before "Deciding" what your truth
    is...




    -- --

    https://rumble.com/vqwxtc-the-worst-of-watch-this-volume-ii.html

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