1. Forum
  2. Usenet
  3. SCI.ASTRO.AMATEUR

  • Before Webb becomes fully operational

    From kelleher.gerald@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 19 00:16:05 2022
    The dominant perspective of the Universe and its structure is conditioned by the timekeeping misadventure inherited from an exceptionally poor conclusion based on the daily change in the position of the stars and projected into the Universe as RA/Dec.

    The physical analogy to the no centre/no circumference perspective is like asking what longitude the North pole is in, all of them or none of them because it is unanswerable even though longitude meridians converge and diverge from that daily rotational
    point. It is also equivalent to asking what digit represents the Phi and Pi proportions as they are non-periodic decimals and there is no lower geometric limit to which the numbers and geometry converge.

    No doubt some theorists will look for evidence to suit their own conclusions yet, like Hubble or SOHO, researchers miss out of a truly amazing adventure to put together narratives which are more suitable for a satellite era where the observations are
    free from daily rotational effects. I certainly wish people to succeed rather than hang back with people who did not have the technology we have today with all its imaging power.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From kelleher.gerald@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 28 01:57:12 2022
    The way the Webb site presents the Earth is spectacular-

    https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/planets/earth/overview/

    There are only two types of year - the 365 day non leap year and the 366 day leap year, so describing the year as 365.25 days is exceptionally unhelpful although perfectly fine in a generalised way just as sunrise/sunset is. For the purposes of using
    timekeeping to model the Earth's motions, observers are inclined to forget or ignore the origins of timekeeping with its roots in the proportion of days across 4 circuits of the Sun which are formatted as the familiar 365/366 day calendar system.

    I urge observers to correct this anomaly at the heart of observational astronomy and do it with purpose.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From palsing@21:1/5 to kellehe...@gmail.com on Mon Feb 28 19:11:58 2022
    On Monday, February 28, 2022 at 1:57:14 AM UTC-8, kellehe...@gmail.com wrote

    There are only two types of year - the 365 day non leap year and the 366 day leap year...

    OOPS, there are lots of types of "years"...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year

    Julian year
    Sidereal year
    Tropical year
    Anomalistic year
    Draconic year
    Lunar year
    Vague year
    Heliacal year
    Sothic year
    Gaussian year
    Besselian year
    Equinoctial cycle
    Galactic year
    Seasonal year

    Who knew?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From kelleher.gerald@gmail.com@21:1/5 to palsing on Tue Mar 1 00:57:29 2022
    On Tuesday, March 1, 2022 at 3:12:01 AM UTC, palsing wrote:
    On Monday, February 28, 2022 at 1:57:14 AM UTC-8, kellehe...@gmail.com wrote

    There are only two types of year - the 365 day non leap year and the 366 day leap year...

    OOPS, there are lots of types of "years"...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year

    My goodness Paul, Wikipedia open the year up with a wandering figure 8 Sun to join the Sun moving in a sine wave ( RA/Dec) or the old Ptolemaic framework (ecliptic longitudes) where the Sun moves through the 12 signs. They have the Sun moving in so many
    different ways that a person would become dizzy, but that is just timekeeping indulgences in the absence of any reasonable person willing to look at how the year is constructed from a really old framework based on the first annual appearance of a
    specific star using contemporary satellite imaging and a stationary/central Sun-

    https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

    Everything to the left of the Sun is an evening appearance, everything to the right is a dawn appearance so as the Earth travels in a circuit, the background stars transition from left to right of the Sun or from an evening appearance to morning
    appearance. The framework of 365/366 days and rotations in proportion to 4 orbital circuits is formatted into three years of 365 days/rotations and one year of 366 days/rotation hence the primacy of these years as timekeeping terms a leap year followed
    by non leap years.

    Of course, you and so many others are unwilling and unable to affirm the new demonstration of the Earth's motion using 21st century satellite imaging with special attention to the annual change in the position of the stars (minus and daily rotational
    input) so willingly become 'yesterday's men'. Instead of participating in the emergence of this system and emerge it will, you prefer to waste your time with fanciful descriptions of different years based on RA/Dec timekeeping errors projected into the
    Earth's daily and annual motions.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Quadibloc@21:1/5 to palsing on Wed Mar 2 11:23:54 2022
    On Monday, February 28, 2022 at 8:12:01 PM UTC-7, palsing wrote:

    OOPS, there are lots of types of "years"...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year

    Julian year
    Sidereal year
    Tropical year
    Anomalistic year
    Draconic year
    Lunar year
    Vague year
    Heliacal year
    Sothic year
    Gaussian year
    Besselian year
    Equinoctial cycle
    Galactic year
    Seasonal year

    The Galactic Year, though, is the time the Earth takes to orbit the
    Galactic center, so it is realy another type of period, not related to the year.

    The important types of year from this list are:

    The sidereal year: the period of the Earth's orbit measured in relation to the stars.
    The tropical year: the time from one vernal equinox to the next.
    The anomalistic year: the time from one perihelion to the next, which is the fundamental
    period for the calculation of the Earth's orbital motion.

    Since the Earth's orbit defines the Ecliptic, I didn't think the Earth *had* a draconic
    year, although of course Mars and other planets have one. Of course, Earth does have
    a draconic year relative to the Invariable Plane of the Solar System, but I don't know
    what the name of that even is.

    The other entries on your list are much less important, such as:

    The Julian year, the Gregorian year, the vague year of 365 days without leap years
    of the ancient Egyptians are all just conventionalized approximations of the tropical
    year.

    The Gaussian year is an estimate of the length of the sidereal year. The Besselian
    year is a kind of averaged tropical year.

    So just snowing him over with a long list doesn't really amount to a good argument.

    Of course, his position is untenable.

    In one sense, hey, I celebrate New Year's Day on the midnight of New Year's Eve.

    So the civil calendar year indeed only comes in two lengths, 365 days and 366 days, something like what he says.

    But the idea that this is the "only" year, or even the most important one, is nonsense.

    The tropical year is the physical reality our calendars derive from. And the tropical
    year derives from the Earth's basic orbital motion (the anomalistic year), plus the
    movements of the Earth's poles (precession) and the movement of the point of perihelion relative to the stars (leading to the difference between the anomalistic
    year and the sidereal year).

    The anomalistic, sidereal, and tropical years are the fundamental realities. Our
    calendars, our civil year, are conventions that derive from those realities.

    John Savard

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From kelleher.gerald@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 2 23:24:06 2022
    All timekeeping and specifically the beginning and ending of a year is based on a really old and exceptionally careful observation. The later Ptolemaic framework is almost nebulous in comparison yet acceptable as an extension of the original framework
    which is much older than the Canopus decree, possibly by many centuries-

    ".. on account of the procession of the rising of Sirius by one day in the course of 4 years,.. therefore it shall be, that the year of 360 days and the 5 days added to their end, so one day shall be from this day after every 4 years added to the 5
    epagomenae before the new year" Canopus Decree 238 BC

    The 36 different first dawn appearances of a grouping of stars or one star (Sirius, in the case above) called the Decans covers 360 days. The additional 5 days completing the cycle was adjusted to incorporate an extra day to account for why Sirius
    skipped a first morning appearance by one day after the fourth 365 day cycle. The parent observation covers the number of days across 4 years, however, when planetary dynamics is introduced the whole scheme becomes interesting and slightly complex.

    A 24 hour day equates to one rotation of the Earth. A year does not equate to one orbit of the Sun insofar as a year can mean two different things in terms of the 365 day year and the 366 day year otherwise know as non-leap years and a leap year. The
    value is found in the parent observation where the number of days/rotations is in proportion to 4 years/orbital circuits of the Sun to a close proximity.

    There are people here capable of discussing the issue as though solar system research means something. The transition of Jupiter presently from an evening appearance to a dawn appearance soon is part of that venture to restructure the relationship of
    timekeeping to planetary motions and solar system structure.

    https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

    It may eventually strike people that I wish the people of our era to succeed when new magnification satellites are coming on stream and society needs these inspirational observations that serve everyone as opposed to a small group of theorists.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)