• Re: Swimming Mongolian Dinosaur?

    From Trolidan7@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Tue Dec 12 15:15:45 2023
    On 12/10/23 15:14, John Harshman wrote:
    On 12/10/23 2:27 PM, erik simpson wrote:
    On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 11:10:03 AM UTC-8, Sight Reader wrote:
    Whaddya guys think? Is buzz over a sort of “non-avian cormorant”
    premature?

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/worlds-first-swimming-dinosaur-discovered-in-mongolia-180981217/
    Maybe someone with much better anatomical insight than I could see the
    "cormorant-like" resemblance,
    but the actual article describing it
    (https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-022-04119-9) describes it as
    "A non-avian dinosaur with a streamlined body exhibits potential
    adaptations for swimming" is amore subdued
    buzz.

    Unfortunately, any material that might show if the legs had any swimming adaptations is missing. I'm assuming that the tail was sufficiently inflexible not to be used, as would be expected in a maniraptoran.

    So basic question. How large was an Allosaurus or Tyrannosaurus
    when they first hatched? Do you clearly know what young large
    Theropoda looked like? Are some maniraptorans improperly
    classified as a different species from say Allosaurus when in
    fact they were simply younger forms of larger Theropoda?

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  • From Trolidan7@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Wed Dec 13 15:49:37 2023
    On 12/12/23 16:19, John Harshman wrote:
    On 12/12/23 3:15 PM, Trolidan7 wrote:
    On 12/10/23 15:14, John Harshman wrote:
    On 12/10/23 2:27 PM, erik simpson wrote:
    On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 11:10:03 AM UTC-8, Sight Reader wrote: >>>>> Whaddya guys think? Is buzz over a sort of “non-avian cormorant” >>>>> premature?

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/worlds-first-swimming-dinosaur-discovered-in-mongolia-180981217/
    Maybe someone with much better anatomical insight than I could see
    the "cormorant-like" resemblance,
    but the actual article describing it
    (https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-022-04119-9) describes it as
    "A non-avian dinosaur with a streamlined body exhibits potential
    adaptations for swimming" is amore subdued
    buzz.

    Unfortunately, any material that might show if the legs had any
    swimming adaptations is missing. I'm assuming that the tail was
    sufficiently inflexible not to be used, as would be expected in a
    maniraptoran.

    So basic question.  How large was an Allosaurus or Tyrannosaurus
    when they first hatched?  Do you clearly know what young large
    Theropoda looked like?  Are some maniraptorans improperly
    classified as a different species from say Allosaurus when in
    fact they were simply younger forms of larger Theropoda?

    Baby dinosaurs were generally a tiny fraction of adult size, judging
    from known eggs. But juveniles can be distinguished from adults.
    Apophyses should be unfused or cartilaginous (likely missing), and bone
    near the ends of long bones should show signals of growth. But there
    have been juveniles confused with adults of smaller species in the past,
    for example Nanotyrannus.

    You know if you have a lot of R selection and nearly
    no parental investment, with the adults laying a large
    number of small eggs, then the juveniles could hatch
    and then start hunting smaller animals or eating smaller
    amounts of plant material moderately quickly. That
    could result in a vast number of small animals in comparison
    with those that are large enough to start laying eggs and
    mate.

    They would just hunt smaller animals or eat less tough plants.
    Many would die as juveniles before reaching larger sizes.

    I once remember reading that some species of crocodilians
    might not undergo senescence, rather they keep growing larger
    until the environment can no longer support them, and then
    they starve. With a lot of R selection, you could have
    animals of larger possible size have much more animals
    grow in niches for smaller organisms before reproducing
    at the larger size. Of course if you can clearly tell that
    would rule out a lot of maniraptora being juveniles of
    larger theropods.

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