I once read an article maybe about 30 years ago that
said that monotremes do not have electroencephalic patterns
similar to REM sleep in humans but marsupials and placental
mammals do.
The article speculated that monotremes may have brains
slightly bigger than some marsupials and placentals due
to less efficient memory processing because of lack of
dreaming.
If birds could do more with smaller brains, that might
enable them to do more with less weight at least slightly.
I was wondering, is there anything in the EEG patterns of
sleeping birds that might mimic REM sleep patterns in
in some mammals, that could indicate that they might
potentially dream in a speculative similar manner to humans
perhaps as potentially caused by convergent evolution?
On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 6:28:46 PM UTC-4, Trolidan7 wrote:
I was wondering, is there anything in the EEG patterns of
sleeping birds that might mimic REM sleep patterns in
in some mammals, that could indicate that they might
potentially dream in a speculative similar manner to humans
perhaps as potentially caused by convergent evolution?
I don't know, but I once claimed that vertebrate bone construction appeared connected to sleep & dreaming. Didn't find support for it elsewhere, but I suspect it is true.
I once read an article maybe about 30 years ago that
said that monotremes do not have electroencephalic patterns
similar to REM sleep in humans but marsupials and placental
mammals do.
The article speculated that monotremes may have brains
slightly bigger than some marsupials and placentals due
to less efficient memory processing because of lack of
dreaming.
If birds could do more with smaller brains, that might
enable them to do more with less weight at least slightly.
I was wondering, is there anything in the EEG patterns of
sleeping birds that might mimic REM sleep patterns in
in some mammals,
that could indicate that they might
potentially dream in a speculative similar manner to humans
perhaps as potentially caused by convergent evolution?
I was wondering, is there anything in the EEG patterns of
sleeping birds that might mimic REM sleep patterns in
in some mammals, that could indicate that they might
potentially dream in a speculative similar manner to humans
perhaps as potentially caused by convergent evolution?
This second reply to the same post was slated for yesterday,
but I got sidetracked by a thread in talk.origins about mathematics,
and I decided some fine points about spherical geometry needed to be clarified.
On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 6:28:46 PM UTC-4, Trolidan7 wrote:
I was wondering, is there anything in the EEG patterns ofThe following excerpt from the same article from which I quoted yesterday suggests that is likely only in a few kinds of living birds.
sleeping birds that might mimic REM sleep patterns in
in some mammals, that could indicate that they might
potentially dream in a speculative similar manner to humans
perhaps as potentially caused by convergent evolution?
"Episodes of REM sleep, typically less than 10 s in duration in other birds [36], [37], [50], [54], lasted 27±7 s on average in ostriches, and could last up to 5 min (2.3±0.9 min, mean maximum ± s.e.m.), the longest reported for any bird."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3160860/
It seems reasonable that any episode of REM sleep that lasts for
over two minutes is a good candidate for a dream of the sort
that we humans have. On the other hand, the "less than 10 seconds"
typical of other birds seem hardly conducive to anything like dreaming.
A difference between ostriches and humans is that ostriches have
much more frequent episodes of REM sleep, typically totaling
25%, on average, on five hours of each night. See Figure 4 of the linked article.
The total is greater than for humans, but it is much more chopped up.
It's conceivable, though, that there is some degree of continuity between successive episodes. I often have the experience of waking up in the
middle of the night for a short time, and then of having the dreams
when I go back to sleep be similar to the ones before I woke.
What is the experience of other readers?
Peter Nyikos
PS before the weekend, I will post the final reply to this post,
on a strongly evolutionary aspect of sleep that is more in
the mainstream of sci.bio.paleontology.
On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 6:28:46 PM UTC-4, Trolidan7 wrote:
I once read an article maybe about 30 years ago that
said that monotremes do not have electroencephalic patterns
similar to REM sleep in humans but marsupials and placental
mammals do.
The article speculated that monotremes may have brains
slightly bigger than some marsupials and placentals due
to less efficient memory processing because of lack of
dreaming.
If birds could do more with smaller brains, that might
enable them to do more with less weight at least slightly.
I was wondering, is there anything in the EEG patterns ofI don't know, but I once claimed that vertebrate bone construction appeared connected to sleep & dreaming. Didn't find support for it elsewhere, but I suspect it is true.
sleeping birds that might mimic REM sleep patterns in
in some mammals, that could indicate that they might
potentially dream in a speculative similar manner to humans
perhaps as potentially caused by convergent evolution?
On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 8:16:41 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 6:28:46 PM UTC-4, Trolidan7 wrote:
I once read an article maybe about 30 years ago that
said that monotremes do not have electroencephalic patterns
similar to REM sleep in humans but marsupials and placental
mammals do.
The article speculated that monotremes may have brains
slightly bigger than some marsupials and placentals due
to less efficient memory processing because of lack of
dreaming.
If birds could do more with smaller brains, that might
enable them to do more with less weight at least slightly.
I was wondering, is there anything in the EEG patterns ofI don't know, but I once claimed that vertebrate bone construction appeared connected to sleep & dreaming. Didn't find support for it elsewhere, but I suspect it is true.
sleeping birds that might mimic REM sleep patterns in
in some mammals, that could indicate that they might
potentially dream in a speculative similar manner to humans
perhaps as potentially caused by convergent evolution?
Non-avian ungulates: sleep standing up, dream laying down
https://infoorb.quora.com/Why-do-cows-and-horses-actually-sleep-standing-up?ch=10&oid=119606248&share=7393030a&srid=RPhZF&target_type=question
Non-avian ungulates: sleep standing up, dream laying down
On Thursday, June 23, 2022 at 5:11:58 AM UTC-4, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 8:16:41 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 6:28:46 PM UTC-4, Trolidan7 wrote:
I once read an article maybe about 30 years ago that
said that monotremes do not have electroencephalic patterns
similar to REM sleep in humans but marsupials and placental
mammals do.
The article speculated that monotremes may have brains
slightly bigger than some marsupials and placentals due
to less efficient memory processing because of lack of
dreaming.
If birds could do more with smaller brains, that might
enable them to do more with less weight at least slightly.
There's a very remotely connected way you've found so far, even if it is correct.I was wondering, is there anything in the EEG patterns ofI don't know, but I once claimed that vertebrate bone construction appeared connected to sleep & dreaming. Didn't find support for it elsewhere, but I suspect it is true.
sleeping birds that might mimic REM sleep patterns in
in some mammals, that could indicate that they might
potentially dream in a speculative similar manner to humans
perhaps as potentially caused by convergent evolution?
Non-avian ungulates: sleep standing up, dream laying downI've known about the "sleep standing up" since I was a young child.
In contrast, the rest of your sentence is a simplification of
the claim, "Cows...can only dream if they're lying down" which the linked article
makes no attempt to explain or support:
https://infoorb.quora.com/Why-do-cows-and-horses-actually-sleep-standing-up?ch=10&oid=119606248&share=7393030a&srid=RPhZF&target_type=question
The article goes to a great length to show how horses are
able to sleep standing up, but it doesn't try to explain why
they (or, rather cows) can't also dream standing up.
Typical popular science writing. Somewhat atypical is the concluding remark: "There. That's a thing you know now." You can even click on the picture and it will
give the cow spiel in isolation.
Peter Nyikos
On Thursday, June 23, 2022 at 2:11:58 AM UTC-7, daud....@gmail.com wrote:Nope, ungulates are mammals with hooves.
Non-avian ungulates: sleep standing up, dream laying downWait a sec… does that mean there are AVIAN ungulates? Do ornithischians count as avian?
This second reply to the same post was slated for yesterday,
but I got sidetracked by a thread in talk.origins about mathematics,
and I decided some fine points about spherical geometry needed to be clarified.
On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 6:28:46 PM UTC-4, Trolidan7 wrote:
I was wondering, is there anything in the EEG patterns ofThe following excerpt from the same article from which I quoted yesterday suggests that is likely only in a few kinds of living birds.
sleeping birds that might mimic REM sleep patterns in
in some mammals, that could indicate that they might
potentially dream in a speculative similar manner to humans
perhaps as potentially caused by convergent evolution?
"Episodes of REM sleep, typically less than 10 s in duration in other birds [36], [37], [50], [54], lasted 27±7 s on average in ostriches, and could last up to 5 min (2.3±0.9 min, mean maximum ± s.e.m.), the longest reported for any bird."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3160860/
It seems reasonable that any episode of REM sleep that lasts for
over two minutes is a good candidate for a dream of the sort
that we humans have. On the other hand, the "less than 10 seconds"
typical of other birds seem hardly conducive to anything like dreaming.
A difference between ostriches and humans is that ostriches have
much more frequent episodes of REM sleep, typically totaling
25%, on average, on five hours of each night. See Figure 4 of the linked article.
The total is greater than for humans, but it is much more chopped up.
It's conceivable, though, that there is some degree of continuity between successive episodes. I often have the experience of waking up in the
middle of the night for a short time, and then of having the dreams
when I go back to sleep be similar to the ones before I woke.
What is the experience of other readers?
On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 4:25:57 PM UTC-7, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
This second reply to the same post was slated for yesterday,
but I got sidetracked by a thread in talk.origins about mathematics,
and I decided some fine points about spherical geometry needed to be clarified.
On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 6:28:46 PM UTC-4, Trolidan7 wrote:
I was wondering, is there anything in the EEG patterns of
sleeping birds that might mimic REM sleep patterns in
in some mammals, that could indicate that they might
potentially dream in a speculative similar manner to humans
perhaps as potentially caused by convergent evolution?
The following excerpt from the same article from which I quoted yesterday suggests that is likely only in a few kinds of living birds.
"Episodes of REM sleep, typically less than 10 s in duration in other birds [36], [37], [50], [54], lasted 27±7 s on average in ostriches, and could last up to 5 min (2.3±0.9 min, mean maximum ± s.e.m.), the longest reported for any bird."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3160860/
It seems reasonable that any episode of REM sleep that lasts for
over two minutes is a good candidate for a dream of the sort
that we humans have. On the other hand, the "less than 10 seconds"
typical of other birds seem hardly conducive to anything like dreaming.
A difference between ostriches and humans is that ostriches have
much more frequent episodes of REM sleep, typically totaling
25%, on average, on five hours of each night. See Figure 4 of the linked article.
The total is greater than for humans, but it is much more chopped up.
It's conceivable, though, that there is some degree of continuity between successive episodes. I often have the experience of waking up in the middle of the night for a short time, and then of having the dreams
when I go back to sleep be similar to the ones before I woke.
What is the experience of other readers?
Well for one that REM sleep in humans may not correlate to bird experiences, and even in humans, it is not yet possible to determine what is really happening in REM sleep.
You don't know whether you were in REM sleep when you wake in the middle of the night, nor in REM sleep when continuing the dream that you apparently remember in the morning.
You don't even know whether you were dreaming the same thing before waking in the middle of the night, although you say you have a memory of it.
But the experience you describe is not unusual, and is claimed to happen occasionally.the movie when falling asleep again. The NDE I experienced was nothing like any dream, lucid or otherwise, though.
Dreaming is fascinating for me. I have had lucid dreams as well as recurrent dreams. I even recall being conscious of my mind 'playing a movie" so to speak, and wondering why it was chosen, even waking up and attempting to convince "myself" to change
So that is why I am interested in consciousness. I couldn't speculate
about other critters, except that I suspect that all life has some degree of consciousness, and intelligence.
On Saturday, June 25, 2022 at 8:38:25 PM UTC-4, Glenn wrote:
On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 4:25:57 PM UTC-7, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
This second reply to the same post was slated for yesterday,
but I got sidetracked by a thread in talk.origins about mathematics,
and I decided some fine points about spherical geometry needed to be clarified.
On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 6:28:46 PM UTC-4, Trolidan7 wrote:
I was wondering, is there anything in the EEG patterns of
sleeping birds that might mimic REM sleep patterns in
in some mammals, that could indicate that they might
potentially dream in a speculative similar manner to humans
perhaps as potentially caused by convergent evolution?
The following excerpt from the same article from which I quoted yesterday
suggests that is likely only in a few kinds of living birds.
"Episodes of REM sleep, typically less than 10 s in duration in other birds [36], [37], [50], [54], lasted 27±7 s on average in ostriches, and could last up to 5 min (2.3±0.9 min, mean maximum ± s.e.m.), the longest reported for any bird."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3160860/
It seems reasonable that any episode of REM sleep that lasts for
over two minutes is a good candidate for a dream of the sort
that we humans have. On the other hand, the "less than 10 seconds" typical of other birds seem hardly conducive to anything like dreaming.
A difference between ostriches and humans is that ostriches have
much more frequent episodes of REM sleep, typically totaling
25%, on average, on five hours of each night. See Figure 4 of the linked article.
The total is greater than for humans, but it is much more chopped up.
It's conceivable, though, that there is some degree of continuity between
successive episodes. I often have the experience of waking up in the middle of the night for a short time, and then of having the dreams
when I go back to sleep be similar to the ones before I woke.
What is the experience of other readers?
Well for one that REM sleep in humans may not correlate to bird experiences, and even in humans, it is not yet possible to determine what is really happening in REM sleep.True.
You don't know whether you were in REM sleep when you wake in the middle of the night, nor in REM sleep when continuing the dream that you apparently remember in the morning.Unless someone monitors my eye movements and wakes me up before the latest REM episode is over.
That has never happened to me, but plenty of others have been subjects of experiments where this was done.
the movie when falling asleep again. The NDE I experienced was nothing like any dream, lucid or otherwise, though.You don't even know whether you were dreaming the same thing before waking in the middle of the night, although you say you have a memory of it.I only remember a small fraction of my dreams, but some from long ago were so vivid, I still remember them.
One kind of dream that was fairly common some decades ago was where I would find, to my embarrassment,
that I was naked in public. But when they were most common, I was able to employ something I had read in
a science fiction book: I generated an "I'm not here" aura that caused those around me to ignore me.
And so I was able to exit gracefully from their company.
But the experience you describe is not unusual, and is claimed to happen occasionally.
Dreaming is fascinating for me. I have had lucid dreams as well as recurrent dreams. I even recall being conscious of my mind 'playing a movie" so to speak, and wondering why it was chosen, even waking up and attempting to convince "myself" to change
What does NDE stand for?
So that is why I am interested in consciousness. I couldn't speculate about other critters, except that I suspect that all life has some degree of consciousness, and intelligence.I'm fairly confident that mammals and birds are conscious. Hence I'm very supportive of
our laws against cruelty to animals.
I also think that all normal human fetuses are conscious at 8 weeks past fertilization, at least in
the rudimentary sense of being past the stage of complete oblivion. That's why I favor restricting
abortion strongly beyond that point. Portugal and Turkey are two countries where that kind of law is in force.
However, invertebrates are a different matter. Already when I was 7 years old, I thought, "How lucky I am!
there are so many more ants in the world than human beings, and *I* am a human being!"
I had never heard of Hinduism by that point, yet the possibility of me experiencing the world through the body
of an ant seemed to be a real one for me, and so it was a great mystery how I could be so lucky.
But if ants aren't conscious, that removes a lot of the mystery.
We've moved rather far from paleontology, but it is hovering in the background and giving
rise to such questions as: were all the dinosaurs and pterosaurs conscious? And how
rich were their conscious lives?
Which brings us back in a roundabout way to dreaming and such observable phenomena as REM sleep.
It's getting late [1], so the post about paleognaths that I promised Harshman will get at least one
more day of delay.
Also, since Trolidan7 hasn't shown up since I revived his thread, I'm thinking of
starting a new thread for it.
[1] I'm an early riser in the summer, because early morning is the best part of the day to be outside
here in South Carolina.
Peter Nyikos
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