A lot of people in e.g. mobile homes in New England and (other areas of the US
it gets cold in the winter) are stuck with baseboard electric heat; since the new administration is so big into crypto it should be decreed that all electric
space heaters sold in the US should mine crypto, and for the baseboards you could also have the baseboard form factor crypto miner.
On 2/11/2025 11:19 AM, bitrex wrote:
A lot of people in e.g. mobile homes in New England and (other areas of the US
it gets cold in the winter) are stuck with baseboard electric heat; since the
new administration is so big into crypto it should be decreed that all electric
space heaters sold in the US should mine crypto, and for the baseboards you >> could also have the baseboard form factor crypto miner.
And, the occupant gets to KEEP any coin that he mines!
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 2/11/2025 11:19 AM, bitrex wrote:
A lot of people in e.g. mobile homes in New England and (other areas of the US
it gets cold in the winter) are stuck with baseboard electric heat; since the
new administration is so big into crypto it should be decreed that all electric
space heaters sold in the US should mine crypto, and for the baseboards you >>> could also have the baseboard form factor crypto miner.
And, the occupant gets to KEEP any coin that he mines!
Which begs the question, will the earnings pay the electric bill?
On 2/11/2025 2:00 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 2/11/2025 11:19 AM, bitrex wrote:
A lot of people in e.g. mobile homes in New England and (other areas
of the US
it gets cold in the winter) are stuck with baseboard electric heat;
since the
new administration is so big into crypto it should be decreed that
all electric
space heaters sold in the US should mine crypto, and for the
baseboards you
could also have the baseboard form factor crypto miner.
And, the occupant gets to KEEP any coin that he mines!
Which begs the question, will the earnings pay the electric bill?
I think bitrex's point was that the person NEEDING heat has
already decided to spend the money on the electricity required.
The realization that the heat could be generated while "doing
useful work" is insightful.
[I believe electric (resistance) heat is among the least? cost effective]
On 2/11/2025 2:00 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 2/11/2025 11:19 AM, bitrex wrote:
A lot of people in e.g. mobile homes in New England and (other areas of the US
it gets cold in the winter) are stuck with baseboard electric heat; since the
new administration is so big into crypto it should be decreed that all electric
space heaters sold in the US should mine crypto, and for the baseboards you
could also have the baseboard form factor crypto miner.
And, the occupant gets to KEEP any coin that he mines!
Which begs the question, will the earnings pay the electric bill?
I think bitrex's point was that the person NEEDING heat has
already decided to spend the money on the electricity required.
The realization that the heat could be generated while "doing
useful work" is insightful.
[I believe electric (resistance) heat is among the least? cost effective]
On 2025-02-11 22:49, Don Y wrote:
On 2/11/2025 2:00 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 2/11/2025 11:19 AM, bitrex wrote:
A lot of people in e.g. mobile homes in New England and (other areas >>>>> of the US
it gets cold in the winter) are stuck with baseboard electric heat;
since the
new administration is so big into crypto it should be decreed that
all electric
space heaters sold in the US should mine crypto, and for the
baseboards you
could also have the baseboard form factor crypto miner.
And, the occupant gets to KEEP any coin that he mines!
Which begs the question, will the earnings pay the electric bill?
I think bitrex's point was that the person NEEDING heat has
already decided to spend the money on the electricity required.
The realization that the heat could be generated while "doing
useful work" is insightful.
[I believe electric (resistance) heat is among the least? cost effective]
A heat pump is the most productive, of the electrical heat sources.
Mining crypto, dunno.
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 00:57:33 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-02-11 22:49, Don Y wrote:
On 2/11/2025 2:00 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:A heat pump is the most productive, of the electrical heat sources.
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 2/11/2025 11:19 AM, bitrex wrote:
A lot of people in e.g. mobile homes in New England and (other areas >>>>>> of the US
it gets cold in the winter) are stuck with baseboard electric heat; >>>>>> since the
new administration is so big into crypto it should be decreed that >>>>>> all electric
space heaters sold in the US should mine crypto, and for the
baseboards you
could also have the baseboard form factor crypto miner.
And, the occupant gets to KEEP any coin that he mines!
Which begs the question, will the earnings pay the electric bill?
I think bitrex's point was that the person NEEDING heat has
already decided to spend the money on the electricity required.
The realization that the heat could be generated while "doing
useful work" is insightful.
[I believe electric (resistance) heat is among the least? cost effective] >>
Mining crypto, dunno.
Couldn't you burn gas, boil water, spin a generator to make
electricity, and heat your house with the condensate heat?
That would make free electricity.
On 2025-02-11 22:49, Don Y wrote:
On 2/11/2025 2:00 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 2/11/2025 11:19 AM, bitrex wrote:
A lot of people in e.g. mobile homes in New England and (other areas of >>>>> the US
it gets cold in the winter) are stuck with baseboard electric heat; since the
new administration is so big into crypto it should be decreed that all >>>>> electric
space heaters sold in the US should mine crypto, and for the baseboards you
could also have the baseboard form factor crypto miner.
And, the occupant gets to KEEP any coin that he mines!
Which begs the question, will the earnings pay the electric bill?
I think bitrex's point was that the person NEEDING heat has
already decided to spend the money on the electricity required.
The realization that the heat could be generated while "doing
useful work" is insightful.
[I believe electric (resistance) heat is among the least? cost effective]
A heat pump is the most productive, of the electrical heat sources. Mining crypto, dunno.
On 2025-02-12 01:48, john larkin wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 00:57:33 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-02-11 22:49, Don Y wrote:
On 2/11/2025 2:00 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:A heat pump is the most productive, of the electrical heat sources.
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 2/11/2025 11:19 AM, bitrex wrote:
A lot of people in e.g. mobile homes in New England and (other areas >>>>>> of the US
it gets cold in the winter) are stuck with baseboard electric heat; >>>>>> since the
new administration is so big into crypto it should be decreed that >>>>>> all electric
space heaters sold in the US should mine crypto, and for the
baseboards you
could also have the baseboard form factor crypto miner.
And, the occupant gets to KEEP any coin that he mines!
Which begs the question, will the earnings pay the electric bill?
I think bitrex's point was that the person NEEDING heat has
already decided to spend the money on the electricity required.
The realization that the heat could be generated while "doing
useful work" is insightful.
[I believe electric (resistance) heat is among the least? cost effective] >>
Mining crypto, dunno.
Couldn't you burn gas, boil water, spin a generator to make
electricity, and heat your house with the condensate heat?
That would make free electricity.
Certainly, and it has a name. Combined cycle, or something similar. It
is a simple as running a diesel generator and heating the house with it radiator, and a heat exchanger on the exhaust.
On 2/11/2025 4:57 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-02-11 22:49, Don Y wrote:
On 2/11/2025 2:00 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:A heat pump is the most productive, of the electrical heat sources. Mining >> crypto, dunno.
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 2/11/2025 11:19 AM, bitrex wrote:
A lot of people in e.g. mobile homes in New England and (other areas of >>>>>> the US
it gets cold in the winter) are stuck with baseboard electric heat; since the
new administration is so big into crypto it should be decreed that all >>>>>> electric
space heaters sold in the US should mine crypto, and for the baseboards you
could also have the baseboard form factor crypto miner.
And, the occupant gets to KEEP any coin that he mines!
Which begs the question, will the earnings pay the electric bill?
I think bitrex's point was that the person NEEDING heat has
already decided to spend the money on the electricity required.
The realization that the heat could be generated while "doing
useful work" is insightful.
[I believe electric (resistance) heat is among the least? cost effective] >>
I suspect it would be costly (impractical?) trying to retrofit a
heat pump to a mobile home. And, older homes likely are oil-fired
hot water (or even *steam*) heat, posing other retrofit problems.
A "drop-in" baseboard heating unit with internet connection
seems the easy option.
Couldn't you burn gas, boil water, spin a generator to make
electricity, and heat your house with the condensate heat?
That would make free electricity.
Certainly, and it has a name. Combined cycle, or something similar. It
is a simple as running a diesel generator and heating the house with it radiator, and a heat exchanger on the exhaust.
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
Couldn't you burn gas, boil water, spin a generator to make
electricity, and heat your house with the condensate heat?
That would make free electricity.
Certainly, and it has a name. Combined cycle, or something similar. It
is a simple as running a diesel generator and heating the house with it
radiator, and a heat exchanger on the exhaust.
Long ago there was a residential product introduced: >https://hondanews.com/en-US/releases/honda-and-climate-energy-begin-retail-sales-of-freewatt-micro-chp-home-heating-and-power-system
Far as I know it failed commercially, but it's unclear what went wrong. >Capital cost might have been the stumbling block, as it surely would
be with a crypo-mining heater. A few kW of computers costs much more
than a few kW of nichrome wire resistance elements.
Thanks for reading,
bob prohaska
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 18:27:09 -0000 (UTC), bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
Couldn't you burn gas, boil water, spin a generator to make
electricity, and heat your house with the condensate heat?
That would make free electricity.
Certainly, and it has a name. Combined cycle, or something similar. It
is a simple as running a diesel generator and heating the house with it
radiator, and a heat exchanger on the exhaust.
Long ago there was a residential product introduced: >>https://hondanews.com/en-US/releases/honda-and-climate-energy-begin-retail-sales-of-freewatt-micro-chp-home-heating-and-power-system
Far as I know it failed commercially, but it's unclear what went wrong. >>Capital cost might have been the stumbling block, as it surely would
be with a crypo-mining heater. A few kW of computers costs much more
than a few kW of nichrome wire resistance elements.
Thanks for reading,
bob prohaska
It doesn't say what the fuel source is. Does it burn gas, or is it an electrically powered heat pump?
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
Couldn't you burn gas, boil water, spin a generator to make
electricity, and heat your house with the condensate heat?
That would make free electricity.
Certainly, and it has a name. Combined cycle, or something similar. It
is a simple as running a diesel generator and heating the house with it
radiator, and a heat exchanger on the exhaust.
Long ago there was a residential product introduced: https://hondanews.com/en-US/releases/honda-and-climate-energy-begin-retail-sales-of-freewatt-micro-chp-home-heating-and-power-system
Far as I know it failed commercially, but it's unclear what went wrong. Capital cost might have been the stumbling block, as it surely would
be with a crypo-mining heater. A few kW of computers costs much more
than a few kW of nichrome wire resistance elements.
On 2/12/25 12:27, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:A few kW of computers costs much more
than a few kW of nichrome wire resistance elements.
I remember back in the ECL mainframe days the waste heat was used to
heat the computer center. When IBM announced a new series with much
lower power consumption we proposed a spoof commercial with a bunch of
people huddled around their new mainframe discussing doubling their
compute power to get enough heat.
My research advisor was telling us when he used an IBM 650 (tube based!)
in Montana they had a low heating bill in the winter, but the summer air >conditioning bill was high.
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:A few kW of computers costs much more
than a few kW of nichrome wire resistance elements.
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-02-12 01:48, john larkin wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 00:57:33 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-02-11 22:49, Don Y wrote:
On 2/11/2025 2:00 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:A heat pump is the most productive, of the electrical heat sources.
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 2/11/2025 11:19 AM, bitrex wrote:
A lot of people in e.g. mobile homes in New England and (other areas >>>>>>>> of the US
it gets cold in the winter) are stuck with baseboard electric heat; >>>>>>>> since the
new administration is so big into crypto it should be decreed that >>>>>>>> all electric
space heaters sold in the US should mine crypto, and for the
baseboards you
could also have the baseboard form factor crypto miner.
And, the occupant gets to KEEP any coin that he mines!
Which begs the question, will the earnings pay the electric bill?
I think bitrex's point was that the person NEEDING heat has
already decided to spend the money on the electricity required.
The realization that the heat could be generated while "doing
useful work" is insightful.
[I believe electric (resistance) heat is among the least? cost effective] >>>>
Mining crypto, dunno.
Couldn't you burn gas, boil water, spin a generator to make
electricity, and heat your house with the condensate heat?
That would make free electricity.
Certainly, and it has a name. Combined cycle, or something similar. It
is a simple as running a diesel generator and heating the house with it
radiator, and a heat exchanger on the exhaust.
What is the design life and replacement cost? Writing off the
investment over a few years could work out more expensive than the electricity it saved.
On 2025-02-12 10:51, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-02-12 01:48, john larkin wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 00:57:33 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-02-11 22:49, Don Y wrote:
On 2/11/2025 2:00 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:I think bitrex's point was that the person NEEDING heat has
On 2/11/2025 11:19 AM, bitrex wrote:
A lot of people in e.g. mobile homes in New England and (other areas >>>>>>>>> of the US
it gets cold in the winter) are stuck with baseboard electric heat; >>>>>>>>> since the
new administration is so big into crypto it should be decreed that >>>>>>>>> all electric
space heaters sold in the US should mine crypto, and for the >>>>>>>>> baseboards you
could also have the baseboard form factor crypto miner.
And, the occupant gets to KEEP any coin that he mines!
Which begs the question, will the earnings pay the electric bill? >>>>>>
already decided to spend the money on the electricity required.
The realization that the heat could be generated while "doing
useful work" is insightful.
[I believe electric (resistance) heat is among the least? cost effective]
A heat pump is the most productive, of the electrical heat sources.
Mining crypto, dunno.
Couldn't you burn gas, boil water, spin a generator to make
electricity, and heat your house with the condensate heat?
That would make free electricity.
Certainly, and it has a name. Combined cycle, or something similar. It
is a simple as running a diesel generator and heating the house with it
radiator, and a heat exchanger on the exhaust.
What is the design life and replacement cost? Writing off the
investment over a few years could work out more expensive than the
electricity it saved.
You have to ask somebody else about that. :-)
I read, maybe decades ago, that it was in fashion for businesses in
Britain to do this, and they surely dir make the numbers.
The calculation was done for the heating of the building. The
electricity was extra gains.
A "drop-in" baseboard heating unit with internet connection
seems the easy option.
Our home computers are already resistive space heaters.
As is our gas cooking range. It puts heat into the house more
efficiently that our gas central heater, because there's no heat being exported through an exhaust vent.
I've considered trying to recover some heat from the vent, or from the
house drain water, but either would be a bunch of work.
Desktop computers that put out significant heat have gone the way of the dodo for most people under the age of 40 probably, those who aren't PC gamers, anyway.
I have a couple pieces of "big iron" that's partly because I'm just old-fashioned; I have some gear connected to the little cube PC in the lab and
I like doing backups to my own home server as well as the cloud.
My laptop at idle doesn't heat a thing and at full tilt puts out enough to warm
up one finger, maybe.
On 2/11/2025 2:00 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 2/11/2025 11:19 AM, bitrex wrote:
A lot of people in e.g. mobile homes in New England and (other areas
of the US
it gets cold in the winter) are stuck with baseboard electric heat;
since the
new administration is so big into crypto it should be decreed that
all electric
space heaters sold in the US should mine crypto, and for the
baseboards you
could also have the baseboard form factor crypto miner.
And, the occupant gets to KEEP any coin that he mines!
Which begs the question, will the earnings pay the electric bill?
I think bitrex's point was that the person NEEDING heat has
already decided to spend the money on the electricity required.
The realization that the heat could be generated while "doing
useful work" is insightful.
[I believe electric (resistance) heat is among the least? cost effective]
On 2/12/2025 11:00 PM, bitrex wrote:
Desktop computers that put out significant heat have gone the way of
the dodo for most people under the age of 40 probably, those who
aren't PC gamers, anyway.
That's likely because desktop computers have gone away -- except in
corporate settings.
My laptop at idle doesn't heat a thing and at full tilt puts out
enough to warm up one finger, maybe.
Laptops tend to be bad examples as they will throttle themselves to keep
the CPU from melting. Desktops can rely on larger fans to spin up to
move more heat.
You don't realize how much heat most kit throws off until you site it
in a poorly ventilated area and note the temperature differential,
over time.
On 2/11/25 22:49, Don Y wrote:
On 2/11/2025 2:00 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 2/11/2025 11:19 AM, bitrex wrote:
A lot of people in e.g. mobile homes in New England and (other areas of >>>>> the US
it gets cold in the winter) are stuck with baseboard electric heat; since the
new administration is so big into crypto it should be decreed that all >>>>> electric
space heaters sold in the US should mine crypto, and for the baseboards you
could also have the baseboard form factor crypto miner.
And, the occupant gets to KEEP any coin that he mines!
Which begs the question, will the earnings pay the electric bill?
I think bitrex's point was that the person NEEDING heat has
already decided to spend the money on the electricity required.
The realization that the heat could be generated while "doing
useful work" is insightful.
here the same idea is used by some big datacenters, selling the heat from the their cooling system to the district heating system
the local cement factory also adds to the district heating system
[I believe electric (resistance) heat is among the least? cost effective]
it depends, if you have excess wind energy you might as well use it for something and the distribution system is already there.
On 13/02/2025 14:08, Don Y wrote:
On 2/12/2025 11:00 PM, bitrex wrote:
Desktop computers that put out significant heat have gone the way of the >>> dodo for most people under the age of 40 probably, those who aren't PC
gamers, anyway.
That's likely because desktop computers have gone away -- except in
corporate settings.
Even in corporate setting you can get things the size of a shallow lunchbox now
that can do everything that any normal office worker will ever need. Many of them will clip onto the back of an LCD display.
My laptop at idle doesn't heat a thing and at full tilt puts out enough to >>> warm up one finger, maybe.
Laptops tend to be bad examples as they will throttle themselves to keep
the CPU from melting. Desktops can rely on larger fans to spin up to
move more heat.
My laptop back around Y2k was I think a Pentium 4 and left permanent scorch marks on the table where I used it. It was definitely not a laptop by any stretch of the imagination unless you wanted to be cooked!
OK I will admit that I did run it fairly hard for max performance.
You don't realize how much heat most kit throws off until you site it
in a poorly ventilated area and note the temperature differential,
over time.
I choose systems these days for maximum performance and minimum power consumption. If I am not running a heavy maths simulation and just typing like
I am now then in winter I can get a "Warning CPU fan 0 rpm" message - it used to bother me at first until I checked the CPU temperature which was under 30C so totally safe.
Modern OS and modern CPUs throttle back the clock and make all the performance
cores idle when there is no serious computational load.
On 2/13/2025 10:08 AM, Lasse Langwadt wrote:
On 2/11/25 22:49, Don Y wrote:
On 2/11/2025 2:00 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 2/11/2025 11:19 AM, bitrex wrote:
A lot of people in e.g. mobile homes in New England and (other areas of >>>>>> the US
it gets cold in the winter) are stuck with baseboard electric heat; since the
new administration is so big into crypto it should be decreed that all >>>>>> electric
space heaters sold in the US should mine crypto, and for the baseboards you
could also have the baseboard form factor crypto miner.
And, the occupant gets to KEEP any coin that he mines!
Which begs the question, will the earnings pay the electric bill?
I think bitrex's point was that the person NEEDING heat has
already decided to spend the money on the electricity required.
The realization that the heat could be generated while "doing
useful work" is insightful.
here the same idea is used by some big datacenters, selling the heat from the
their cooling system to the district heating system
the local cement factory also adds to the district heating system
The whole notion of a "district heating system" is anathema to american >culture. The closest thing would be an "institution-wide" heating plant
that distributes heat from a central facility to multiple buildings
on a "campus". Traditionally via steam transported through below
grade tunnels.
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-02-12 10:51, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-02-12 01:48, john larkin wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 00:57:33 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-02-11 22:49, Don Y wrote:
On 2/11/2025 2:00 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:I think bitrex's point was that the person NEEDING heat has
On 2/11/2025 11:19 AM, bitrex wrote:
A lot of people in e.g. mobile homes in New England and (other areas >>>>>>>>>> of the US
it gets cold in the winter) are stuck with baseboard electric heat; >>>>>>>>>> since the
new administration is so big into crypto it should be decreed that >>>>>>>>>> all electric
space heaters sold in the US should mine crypto, and for the >>>>>>>>>> baseboards you
could also have the baseboard form factor crypto miner.
And, the occupant gets to KEEP any coin that he mines!
Which begs the question, will the earnings pay the electric bill? >>>>>>>
already decided to spend the money on the electricity required.
The realization that the heat could be generated while "doing
useful work" is insightful.
[I believe electric (resistance) heat is among the least? cost effective]
A heat pump is the most productive, of the electrical heat sources. >>>>>> Mining crypto, dunno.
Couldn't you burn gas, boil water, spin a generator to make
electricity, and heat your house with the condensate heat?
That would make free electricity.
Certainly, and it has a name. Combined cycle, or something similar. It >>>> is a simple as running a diesel generator and heating the house with it >>>> radiator, and a heat exchanger on the exhaust.
What is the design life and replacement cost? Writing off the
investment over a few years could work out more expensive than the
electricity it saved.
You have to ask somebody else about that. :-)
I read, maybe decades ago, that it was in fashion for businesses in
Britain to do this, and they surely dir make the numbers.
The calculation was done for the heating of the building. The
electricity was extra gains.
Of course when the engine drops a valve on a New Year’s Day with 20 degrees of frost, you can’t get it fixed before all your pipes freeze and flood the house.
On 2/12/2025 1:49 PM, john larkin wrote:
A "drop-in" baseboard heating unit with internet connection
seems the easy option.
Our home computers are already resistive space heaters.
Desktop computers that put out significant heat have gone the way of the
dodo for most people under the age of 40 probably, those who aren't PC gamers, anyway.
I have a couple pieces of "big iron" that's partly because I'm just old- fashioned; I have some gear connected to the little cube PC in the lab
and I like doing backups to my own home server as well as the cloud.
My laptop at idle doesn't heat a thing and at full tilt puts out enough
to warm up one finger, maybe.
My computer room stays one or two degrees above other rooms. A desktop computer, some peripherals, printer, switch, wifi AP, a minicomputer with display...
Even without anything "on", there is a large quiescent
load:
- three switches (25W ea)
- printer (sleeping)
- print server (laserjet has no NIC)
- 12 "idling" UPSs (with loads "off")
- all the servers/workstations "off" (needing power for LoM)
- all the devices (monitors, NASs) with "soft" power switches
I'd imagine there's at least 100W there, 24/7/365.
On 2/17/2025 1:23 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
My computer room stays one or two degrees above other rooms. A desktop
computer, some peripherals, printer, switch, wifi AP, a minicomputer
with display...
Houses, here, use forced air HVAC (for the most part).
But, virtually all are built on slabs and are devoid of
(distributed) return air ductwork ("Supply" is high;
"Return" is omitted).
So, open room doors are the primary means of recovering
air from those rooms. CLOSE a door and you seriously
impede air flow IN and OUT of said room.
OTOH, most floorplans are "open"; more than half of the
floorspace CAN'T be "isolated" in such a way.
The point being that one can easily (deliberately or
accidentally) "capture" waste heat in a room. This
is a win for places like bathrooms where you typically
want to step OUT of a shower into a WARM(er) room
and not the cold of an air-conditioned space!
Even without anything "on", there is a large quiescent
load:
- three switches (25W ea)
- printer (sleeping)
- print server (laserjet has no NIC)
- 12 "idling" UPSs (with loads "off")
- all the servers/workstations "off" (needing power for LoM)
- all the devices (monitors, NASs) with "soft" power switches
I'd imagine there's at least 100W there, 24/7/365.
But, one doesn't see any real downside as there isn't
a line-item on the electric bill that makes clear the
cost of these inefficiencies. And, the HVAC does a
reasonably good job of insulating us from any associated
PHYSICAL discomfort!
On 2025-02-13 03:00, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-02-12 10:51, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-02-12 01:48, john larkin wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 00:57:33 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-02-11 22:49, Don Y wrote:
On 2/11/2025 2:00 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:I think bitrex's point was that the person NEEDING heat has
On 2/11/2025 11:19 AM, bitrex wrote:
A lot of people in e.g. mobile homes in New England and (other areas
of the US
it gets cold in the winter) are stuck with baseboard electric heat; >>>>>>>>>>> since the
new administration is so big into crypto it should be decreed that >>>>>>>>>>> all electric
space heaters sold in the US should mine crypto, and for the >>>>>>>>>>> baseboards you
could also have the baseboard form factor crypto miner.
And, the occupant gets to KEEP any coin that he mines!
Which begs the question, will the earnings pay the electric bill? >>>>>>>>
already decided to spend the money on the electricity required. >>>>>>>> The realization that the heat could be generated while "doing
useful work" is insightful.
[I believe electric (resistance) heat is among the least? cost effective]
A heat pump is the most productive, of the electrical heat sources. >>>>>>> Mining crypto, dunno.
Couldn't you burn gas, boil water, spin a generator to make
electricity, and heat your house with the condensate heat?
That would make free electricity.
Certainly, and it has a name. Combined cycle, or something similar. It >>>>> is a simple as running a diesel generator and heating the house with it >>>>> radiator, and a heat exchanger on the exhaust.
What is the design life and replacement cost? Writing off the
investment over a few years could work out more expensive than the
electricity it saved.
You have to ask somebody else about that. :-)
I read, maybe decades ago, that it was in fashion for businesses in
Britain to do this, and they surely dir make the numbers.
The calculation was done for the heating of the building. The
electricity was extra gains.
Of course when the engine drops a valve on a New Year’s Day with 20 degrees
of frost, you can’t get it fixed before all your pipes freeze and flood the
house.
Then use air ducts, as the Canadians :-)
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-02-13 03:00, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-02-12 10:51, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-02-12 01:48, john larkin wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 00:57:33 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-02-11 22:49, Don Y wrote:
On 2/11/2025 2:00 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:I think bitrex's point was that the person NEEDING heat has
On 2/11/2025 11:19 AM, bitrex wrote:
A lot of people in e.g. mobile homes in New England and (other areasAnd, the occupant gets to KEEP any coin that he mines!
of the US
it gets cold in the winter) are stuck with baseboard electric heat;
since the
new administration is so big into crypto it should be decreed that >>>>>>>>>>>> all electric
space heaters sold in the US should mine crypto, and for the >>>>>>>>>>>> baseboards you
could also have the baseboard form factor crypto miner. >>>>>>>>>>>
Which begs the question, will the earnings pay the electric bill? >>>>>>>>>
already decided to spend the money on the electricity required. >>>>>>>>> The realization that the heat could be generated while "doing >>>>>>>>> useful work" is insightful.
[I believe electric (resistance) heat is among the least? cost effective]
A heat pump is the most productive, of the electrical heat sources. >>>>>>>> Mining crypto, dunno.
Couldn't you burn gas, boil water, spin a generator to make
electricity, and heat your house with the condensate heat?
That would make free electricity.
Certainly, and it has a name. Combined cycle, or something similar. It >>>>>> is a simple as running a diesel generator and heating the house with it >>>>>> radiator, and a heat exchanger on the exhaust.
What is the design life and replacement cost? Writing off the
investment over a few years could work out more expensive than the
electricity it saved.
You have to ask somebody else about that. :-)
I read, maybe decades ago, that it was in fashion for businesses in
Britain to do this, and they surely dir make the numbers.
The calculation was done for the heating of the building. The
electricity was extra gains.
Of course when the engine drops a valve on a New Year’s Day with 20 degrees
of frost, you can’t get it fixed before all your pipes freeze and flood the
house.
Then use air ducts, as the Canadians :-)
I’m Canadian myself, but I never got the knack for washing and cooking with air alone. I’d probably be thinner if I had. ;)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
On 2025-02-18 01:24, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-02-13 03:00, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-02-12 10:51, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-02-12 01:48, john larkin wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 00:57:33 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-02-11 22:49, Don Y wrote:
On 2/11/2025 2:00 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:I think bitrex's point was that the person NEEDING heat has >>>>>>>>>> already decided to spend the money on the electricity required. >>>>>>>>>> The realization that the heat could be generated while "doing >>>>>>>>>> useful work" is insightful.
On 2/11/2025 11:19 AM, bitrex wrote:
A lot of people in e.g. mobile homes in New England and (other areasAnd, the occupant gets to KEEP any coin that he mines!
of the US
it gets cold in the winter) are stuck with baseboard electric heat;
since the
new administration is so big into crypto it should be decreed that
all electric
space heaters sold in the US should mine crypto, and for the >>>>>>>>>>>>> baseboards you
could also have the baseboard form factor crypto miner. >>>>>>>>>>>>
Which begs the question, will the earnings pay the electric bill? >>>>>>>>>>
[I believe electric (resistance) heat is among the least? cost effective]
A heat pump is the most productive, of the electrical heat sources. >>>>>>>>> Mining crypto, dunno.
Couldn't you burn gas, boil water, spin a generator to make
electricity, and heat your house with the condensate heat?
That would make free electricity.
Certainly, and it has a name. Combined cycle, or something similar. It >>>>>>> is a simple as running a diesel generator and heating the house with it >>>>>>> radiator, and a heat exchanger on the exhaust.
What is the design life and replacement cost? Writing off the
investment over a few years could work out more expensive than the >>>>>> electricity it saved.
You have to ask somebody else about that. :-)
I read, maybe decades ago, that it was in fashion for businesses in
Britain to do this, and they surely dir make the numbers.
The calculation was done for the heating of the building. The
electricity was extra gains.
Of course when the engine drops a valve on a New Year’s Day with 20 degrees
of frost, you can’t get it fixed before all your pipes freeze and flood the
house.
Then use air ducts, as the Canadians :-)
I’m Canadian myself, but I never got the knack for washing and cooking with
air alone. I’d probably be thinner if I had. ;)
Heh. No, for that you use electricity. As the combined generator is off (broken), you don't have the space heating, but you still get
electricity from the network.
On 2025-02-17 22:55, Don Y wrote:
On 2/17/2025 1:23 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
My computer room stays one or two degrees above other rooms. A desktop
computer, some peripherals, printer, switch, wifi AP, a minicomputer with >>> display...
Houses, here, use forced air HVAC (for the most part).
But, virtually all are built on slabs and are devoid of
(distributed) return air ductwork ("Supply" is high;
"Return" is omitted).
So, open room doors are the primary means of recovering
air from those rooms. CLOSE a door and you seriously
impede air flow IN and OUT of said room.
Is that Canada? Because I have seen that in Ottawa. Originally for heating, later AC added.
OTOH, most floorplans are "open"; more than half of the
floorspace CAN'T be "isolated" in such a way.
The point being that one can easily (deliberately or
accidentally) "capture" waste heat in a room. This
is a win for places like bathrooms where you typically
want to step OUT of a shower into a WARM(er) room
and not the cold of an air-conditioned space!
Even without anything "on", there is a large quiescent
load:
- three switches (25W ea)
- printer (sleeping)
- print server (laserjet has no NIC)
- 12 "idling" UPSs (with loads "off")
- all the servers/workstations "off" (needing power for LoM)
- all the devices (monitors, NASs) with "soft" power switches
I'd imagine there's at least 100W there, 24/7/365.
But, one doesn't see any real downside as there isn't
a line-item on the electric bill that makes clear the
cost of these inefficiencies. And, the HVAC does a
reasonably good job of insulating us from any associated
PHYSICAL discomfort!
Heh, my electricity company does write in the invoice what they think I'm spending electricity on. Like so many Kwh for the fridge, the clothes washer, etc. It is ridiculous.
I had a gadget to actually measure the power consumed at a socket, but it broke. Like if its internal software got corrupted. I should get another one day, and find out what my computer socket takes.
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-02-18 01:24, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-02-13 03:00, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-02-12 10:51, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-02-12 01:48, john larkin wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 00:57:33 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-02-11 22:49, Don Y wrote:
On 2/11/2025 2:00 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:I think bitrex's point was that the person NEEDING heat has >>>>>>>>>>> already decided to spend the money on the electricity required. >>>>>>>>>>> The realization that the heat could be generated while "doing >>>>>>>>>>> useful work" is insightful.
On 2/11/2025 11:19 AM, bitrex wrote:Which begs the question, will the earnings pay the electric bill? >>>>>>>>>>>
A lot of people in e.g. mobile homes in New England and (other areasAnd, the occupant gets to KEEP any coin that he mines! >>>>>>>>>>>>
of the US
it gets cold in the winter) are stuck with baseboard electric heat;
since the
new administration is so big into crypto it should be decreed that
all electric
space heaters sold in the US should mine crypto, and for the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> baseboards you
could also have the baseboard form factor crypto miner. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
[I believe electric (resistance) heat is among the least? cost effective]
A heat pump is the most productive, of the electrical heat sources. >>>>>>>>>> Mining crypto, dunno.
Couldn't you burn gas, boil water, spin a generator to make
electricity, and heat your house with the condensate heat?
That would make free electricity.
Certainly, and it has a name. Combined cycle, or something similar. It >>>>>>>> is a simple as running a diesel generator and heating the house with it
radiator, and a heat exchanger on the exhaust.
What is the design life and replacement cost? Writing off the
investment over a few years could work out more expensive than the >>>>>>> electricity it saved.
You have to ask somebody else about that. :-)
I read, maybe decades ago, that it was in fashion for businesses in >>>>>> Britain to do this, and they surely dir make the numbers.
The calculation was done for the heating of the building. The
electricity was extra gains.
Of course when the engine drops a valve on a New Year’s Day with 20 degrees
of frost, you can’t get it fixed before all your pipes freeze and flood the
house.
Then use air ducts, as the Canadians :-)
I’m Canadian myself, but I never got the knack for washing and cooking with
air alone. I’d probably be thinner if I had. ;)
Heh. No, for that you use electricity. As the combined generator is off
(broken), you don't have the space heating, but you still get
electricity from the network.
To be a bit clearer, the domestic water pipes freeze and burst too.
On 2/17/2025 4:43 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-02-17 22:55, Don Y wrote:
On 2/17/2025 1:23 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
My computer room stays one or two degrees above other rooms. A
desktop computer, some peripherals, printer, switch, wifi AP, a
minicomputer with display...
Houses, here, use forced air HVAC (for the most part).
But, virtually all are built on slabs and are devoid of
(distributed) return air ductwork ("Supply" is high;
"Return" is omitted).
So, open room doors are the primary means of recovering
air from those rooms. CLOSE a door and you seriously
impede air flow IN and OUT of said room.
Is that Canada? Because I have seen that in Ottawa. Originally for
heating, later AC added.
No, I'm in the southwestern US. "Building" (construction) conventions
are very different, here. Everything is "fast and loose".
E.g., roads, here, are asphalt on top of hard-pan. No sub-base
for drainage, etc. Cheap (low quality) windows, doors, etc.
Doesn't matter how much the house costs (we have friends in
multimillion dollar homes -- that set out BUCKETS each time
it rains!), it's just a different mindset.
To be fair, heating isn't much of a problem. E.g., it was 75F today
(mid February) and will likely drop to 40F tonight. Contrast that
with other parts of the country that might see a HIGH of 40F...
I'd imagine there's at least 100W there, 24/7/365.
But, one doesn't see any real downside as there isn't
a line-item on the electric bill that makes clear the
cost of these inefficiencies. And, the HVAC does a
reasonably good job of insulating us from any associated
PHYSICAL discomfort!
Heh, my electricity company does write in the invoice what they think
I'm spending electricity on. Like so many Kwh for the fridge, the
clothes washer, etc. It is ridiculous.
But that only makes sense for "nominal" homes and energy usage.
I had a gadget to actually measure the power consumed at a socket, but
it broke. Like if its internal software got corrupted. I should get
another one day, and find out what my computer socket takes.
I have a "Watts Up" but it is really just a novelty item.
I can plug the refrigerator into it and let it "watch" for
a week to summarize energy usage. But, the label on the
front of the refrigerator already told us what the appliance
is EXPECTED to cost to operate over the course of a year.
Did we actually factor that into our purchase decision?
Or, did we look at the features, size, cosmetics, etc.?
To truly monitor your usage to a point where you can
make intelligent decisions about how to modify your
*behavior*, you need more data ANNOTATED by your "reasoning
at the moment".
The refrigerator door is opened/closed probably 50 times
each day. When I make the marinade for our Sunday lunch,
I will take out SOME of the ingredients. Measure them
and return them to the refrigerator in groups -- as I fetch
other ingredients. How much ($$) is it worth for me to
operate in more of a "batch" mode: take out ALL of the
ingredients, measure and mix them, then return ALL of them
to the refrigerator?
Each of my UPSs reports on its load every minute (drops a
report on a server that I have configured to accept these).
But, would reviewing that data lead to any meaningful
behavioral changes on my part? Will I rearrange which
apps are running on each machine to get the lowest
energy consumption? How will that inconvenience me
(even neglecting the effort to rejigger everything)?
Will it be "worth" that inconvenience?
Having all those devices "sleeping" (1W or less??) vs.
trying to eliminate those loads by ADDING more switched
outlets? Is it worth the hassle to switch the monitors
OFF when the associated computer(s) are sleeping? Or,
just let them "sleep", as well?
I think I'm paying too much.
Energy tends to be pretty inexpensive, here. Likely why we are so
wasteful of it. *Water* tends to get far more attention as it is
a more constrained resource!
Houses, here, use forced air HVAC (for the most part).
But, virtually all are built on slabs and are devoid of
(distributed) return air ductwork ("Supply" is high;
"Return" is omitted).
So, open room doors are the primary means of recovering
air from those rooms. CLOSE a door and you seriously
impede air flow IN and OUT of said room.
Is that Canada? Because I have seen that in Ottawa. Originally for heating, >>> later AC added.
No, I'm in the southwestern US. "Building" (construction) conventions
are very different, here. Everything is "fast and loose".
E.g., roads, here, are asphalt on top of hard-pan. No sub-base
for drainage, etc. Cheap (low quality) windows, doors, etc.
Doesn't matter how much the house costs (we have friends in
multimillion dollar homes -- that set out BUCKETS each time
it rains!), it's just a different mindset.
Yes. And when comes a hurricane, it levels everything flat. Over there you build with wood (and can have disastrous fires). Over here, it is all concrete
and bricks.
Mind, I had water leaks on my roof. I don't have the skill set to go up there (plus I am afraid of heights), so had some men come. Basically what they did was rearrange the ceramic tiles properly leaving no holes. Finding men with that skill is not easy, I was lucky.
I had a gadget to actually measure the power consumed at a socket, but it >>> broke. Like if its internal software got corrupted. I should get another one
day, and find out what my computer socket takes.
I have a "Watts Up" but it is really just a novelty item.
I can plug the refrigerator into it and let it "watch" for
a week to summarize energy usage. But, the label on the
front of the refrigerator already told us what the appliance
is EXPECTED to cost to operate over the course of a year.
Yes. It sums usage each day, max/min, power factor, etc, in a tiny display.
Having all those devices "sleeping" (1W or less??) vs.
trying to eliminate those loads by ADDING more switched
outlets? Is it worth the hassle to switch the monitors
OFF when the associated computer(s) are sleeping? Or,
just let them "sleep", as well?
Well, if I see my rack using 200 watts I will more aggressively hibernate my desktop machine when not using it.
I think I'm paying too much.
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