In French, there are double perfect tenses (temps surcomposés), e.g.
"il a eu fini", auxiliary + past participle of auxiliary + past
participle. This is usually considered nonstandard, regional, or
obsolete usage.

Corresponding forms also show up in German, both in Southern dialects
that lost the preterite, but also marginally in Standard German,
where, again, it is considered nonstandard. (You might be excused
for thinking that traditional grammar was fixated on creating a
bijective mapping of tenses with those of Latin...)

I don't think I've ever encountered anything like this in English.
Does this exist anywhere?

Anywhere else in the Western European Romance-Germanic area?

(Yes, I'm aware Slavic languages, with their dearth of synthetic
tenses, form a pluperfect this way.)

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

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Tue, 30 Jan 2024 14:48:03 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> scribeva:

In French, there are double perfect tenses (temps surcomposés), e.g.
"il a eu fini", auxiliary + past participle of auxiliary + past
participle. This is usually considered nonstandard, regional, or
obsolete usage.

Isn't that a passive voice?

Corresponding forms also show up in German, both in Southern dialects
that lost the preterite, but also marginally in Standard German,
where, again, it is considered nonstandard. (You might be excused
for thinking that traditional grammar was fixated on creating a
bijective mapping of tenses with those of Latin...)

I don't think I've ever encountered anything like this in English.
Does this exist anywhere?

It has been finished. Isn't that the same?

Anywhere else in the Western European Romance-Germanic area?

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On 2024-01-30, Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:

In French, there are double perfect tenses (temps surcomposés), e.g.
"il a eu fini", auxiliary + past participle of auxiliary + past
participle. This is usually considered nonstandard, regional, or
obsolete usage.

Isn't that a passive voice?

No.

il a fini (he has finished)
il a eu fini (literally: he has had finished)

Anywhere else in the Western European Romance-Germanic area?

Over on the German group, I asked specifically about Italian[1] and
was pointed to this text about Friulian (in Italian) that briefly
mentions the existence of double perfects in Friulian at the end
of section 7.2.1:
https://www.kit.gwi.uni-muenchen.de/?p=13160&v=3
E.g.
al à vût dit (literally: he has had said)

Also the French Wikipedia article "Temps surcomposé" claims the
contemporary usage in Southern French is due to Occitan influence,
so presumably is exists there, too.


[1] French, (Northern) Italian, and (Southern) German form a sort of
mini-sprachbund with regard to the perfect: They share a similar
distribution of auxiliaries "have" and "be", and they have
replaced the former simple past/preterite with the analytic
perfect. This makes me wonder whether the double perfect
also reaches into Italian.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

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On 2024-01-30 14:48:03 +0000, Christian Weisgerber said:

In French, there are double perfect tenses (temps surcomposés), e.g.
"il a eu fini", auxiliary + past participle of auxiliary + past
participle. This is usually considered nonstandard, regional, or
obsolete usage.

Corresponding forms also show up in German, both in Southern dialects
that lost the preterite, but also marginally in Standard German,
where, again, it is considered nonstandard. (You might be excused
for thinking that traditional grammar was fixated on creating a
bijective mapping of tenses with those of Latin...)

I don't think I've ever encountered anything like this in English.
Does this exist anywhere?

Anywhere else in the Western European Romance-Germanic area?

(Yes, I'm aware Slavic languages, with their dearth of synthetic
tenses, form a pluperfect this way.)

"Il finit" = 'He finishes'
"Il a finit" = 'He finished'
"Il a eu finit" = 'He had finished'

--
Mikko

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Op 30/01/2024 om 15:48 schreef Christian Weisgerber:

In French, there are double perfect tenses (temps surcomposés), e.g.
"il a eu fini", auxiliary + past participle of auxiliary + past
participle. This is usually considered nonstandard, regional, or
obsolete usage.

Corresponding forms also show up in German, both in Southern dialects
that lost the preterite, but also marginally in Standard German,

Examples?

where, again, it is considered nonstandard. (You might be excused
for thinking that traditional grammar was fixated on creating a
bijective mapping of tenses with those of Latin...)

I don't think I've ever encountered anything like this in English.
Does this exist anywhere?

Anywhere else in the Western European Romance-Germanic area?

I think I've heard it done in Flemish dialects.

Ik heb hem gekend *gehad*.
"I've *had* known him."

Ik heb dat wel eens gedaan *gehad*.
"I've *had* done that occasionally."

--
guido wugi

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On 2024-01-31, wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> wrote:

Corresponding forms also show up in German, both in Southern dialects
that lost the preterite, but also marginally in Standard German,

Examples?

"Ich habe ihm geschrieben gehabt."

This one is from Goethe:
"Mignon hatte sich versteckt gehabt, hatte ihn angefaßt und ihn in
den Arm gebissen."

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppeltes_Perfekt

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

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On 2024-01-30, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

In French, there are double perfect tenses (temps surcomposés), e.g.
"il a eu fini", auxiliary + past participle of auxiliary + past
participle. This is usually considered nonstandard, regional, or
obsolete usage.

Just curious --- where in France (or francophonie) are they used?

Corresponding forms also show up in German, both in Southern dialects
that lost the preterite, but also marginally in Standard German,
where, again, it is considered nonstandard. (You might be excused
for thinking that traditional grammar was fixated on creating a
bijective mapping of tenses with those of Latin...)

I don't think I've ever encountered anything like this in English.
Does this exist anywhere?

Anywhere else in the Western European Romance-Germanic area?

(Yes, I'm aware Slavic languages, with their dearth of synthetic
tenses, form a pluperfect this way.)

--
Our function calls do not have parameters: they have
arguments, and they always win them.
---Klingon Programmer's Guide

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On 2024-02-01, Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> wrote:

Just curious --- where in France (or francophonie) are they used?

| Les temps surcomposés étaient encore fréquemment employés par les
| gens de lettres au XVIIIe siècle. Aujourd'hui, il est encore très
| présent dans le français méridional sous l'influence grammaticale
| de l'occitan. On les rencontre toutefois dans certaines régions
| françaises de langue francoprovençale, par exemple dans les parlers
| stéphanois, lyonnais, en Savoie et en Suisse, dans les régions
| de langues d'Oc, au Québec (influence du poitevin-saintongeais) et
| dans l'ouest de la Bretagne (influence du breton). https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temps_surcompos%C3%A9

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

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On 2024-02-01, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

On 2024-02-01, Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> wrote:

Just curious --- where in France (or francophonie) are they used?

| Les temps surcomposés étaient encore fréquemment employés par les
| gens de lettres au XVIIIe siècle. Aujourd'hui, il est encore très
| présent dans le français méridional sous l'influence grammaticale
| de l'occitan. On les rencontre toutefois dans certaines régions
| françaises de langue francoprovençale, par exemple dans les parlers
| stéphanois, lyonnais, en Savoie et en Suisse, dans les régions
| de langues d'Oc, au Québec (influence du poitevin-saintongeais) et
| dans l'ouest de la Bretagne (influence du breton).
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temps_surcompos%C3%A9

Interesting, thanks. I'm familiar (enough) with the "literary past
tenses" but I don't recall seeing this kind.

The Camus example is interesting: "Le silence était complet dans la
salle quand elle a eu fini." I would have expected the normal
plusperfect "quand elle avait fini" or the literary "quand elle eut
fini". (I looked it up and it's in narration, not dialogue.)


--
Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each
one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of
being born on some particular spot consider themselves nobler, better,
grander, more intelligent than those living beings inhabiting any
other spot. --Emma Goldman

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