• Denk ich an Deutschland in der Nacht, Dann bin ich um den Schlaf gebrac

    From HenHanna@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 18 16:32:52 2024
    XPost: alt.english.usage, soc.culture.german

    The German present participle is called Partizip I (Participle One)

    sprechen (to speak) -----> sprechend (speaking)
    lachen (to laugh) -----> lachend (laughing)

    denken ---------> denkend


    ____________________
    (this almost has the 3!!! pattern that i'm looking for)


    Das Gedicht „Nachtgedanken“ von Heinrich Heine.

    Denk ich an Deutschland in der Nacht,
    Dann bin ich um den Schlaf gebracht,
    Ich kann nicht mehr die Augen schließen,
    Und meine heißen Tränen fließen.


    --- it seems that...

    ich denke
    ich denk -------- is the usual form

    by inversion [Denk ich] the verb becomes like Present-participle

    Like the [Kommen] at the Joke-opening, it seems to create
    a momentum to urge the reader to read the rest of the poem.



    ___________________is the (very first) [Denk] in a command form?


    bard.google.com>>>


    No, "Denk" in the poem "Denk ich an Deutschland in der Nacht" is not a
    command form. Here's why:

    Grammatical Form: The verb "Denk" is in the first-person singular indicative present tense (ich denke). This tense is used to describe
    ongoing actions or habits, not to give commands.


    Context: The poem expresses the speaker's thoughts and feelings.
    Commands are used to tell someone to do something, and that's
    not the purpose here.


    Overall Meaning: The line "Denk ich an Deutschland in der Nacht" translates to "When I think of Germany at night." This clearly describes
    a recurring thought or action, not giving an order.

    So, "Denk" functions as the main verb in a subordinate clause, setting
    the condition for the speaker's sleepless state.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From HenHanna@21:1/5 to HenHanna on Tue Jun 18 16:40:52 2024
    XPost: alt.english.usage, soc.culture.german

    On 6/18/2024 4:32 PM, HenHanna wrote:

    The German present participle is called Partizip I (Participle One)

             sprechen (to speak) ----->   sprechend (speaking)
               lachen (to laugh) ----->   lachend (laughing)

                   denken    --------->   denkend


    ____________________
                    (this almost has the 3!!! pattern that i'm looking for)


           Das Gedicht „Nachtgedanken“   von Heinrich Heine.

    Denk ich an Deutschland in der Nacht,
    Dann bin ich um den Schlaf gebracht,
    Ich kann nicht mehr die Augen schließen,
    Und meine heißen Tränen fließen.


        --- it seems that...

                ich denke
                ich denk  -------- is the usual form

    by inversion [Denk ich]  the verb becomes like Present-participle

    Like the [Kommen] at the Joke-opening, it seems to create
    a momentum to urge the reader to read the rest of the poem.


    thank you (again) for telling us that jokes are told in a
    repeated Sentence-initial-Verb form.

    i'm guessing that... it creates a sense of continuous Urging, urging...

    the feeling of....

    THen the guy goes... Then she says... and the Guy goes....
    and the Dog barks... and the Cat jumps in....
    ..........
    ---> (all the way to the Punch line.)


    i'm guessing that the Punch line can be told
    in the usual Verb-2nd form. (for Finality)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From HenHanna@21:1/5 to HenHanna on Tue Jun 18 19:16:50 2024
    XPost: soc.culture.german, alt.usage.english

    On 6/18/2024 4:40 PM, HenHanna wrote:
    On 6/18/2024 4:32 PM, HenHanna wrote:

    The German present participle is called Partizip I (Participle One)

              sprechen (to speak) ----->   sprechend (speaking)
                lachen (to laugh) ----->   lachend (laughing)

                    denken    --------->   denkend


    ____________________
                     (this almost has the 3!!! pattern that i'm looking for)


            Das Gedicht „Nachtgedanken“   von Heinrich Heine.

    Denk ich an Deutschland in der Nacht,
    Dann bin ich um den Schlaf gebracht,
    Ich kann nicht mehr die Augen schließen,
    Und meine heißen Tränen fließen.


         --- it seems that...

                 ich denke
                 ich denk  -------- is the usual form

    by inversion [Denk ich]  the verb becomes like Present-participle

    Like the [Kommen] at the Joke-opening, it seems to create
    a momentum to urge the reader to read the rest of the poem.


    thank you (again) for telling us that jokes are told in a
    repeated  Sentence-initial-Verb   form.

    i'm guessing that... it creates a sense of continuous Urging, urging...

    the feeling of....

                THen the guy goes...  Then she says... and the Guy goes....
                 and the Dog barks... and the Cat jumps in....
                ..........
                                   --->   (all the way to the Punch line.)


     i'm guessing that the Punch line can be told
                   in the usual  Verb-2nd form.  (for Finality)



    Kommen drei Logiker in eine Bar.
    Der Kellner fragt: "Na, was darfs sein, die Herren? Drei Bier?"
    Sagt der erste Logiker "Ich weiß nicht",
    der zweite auch "Ich weiß nicht" und
    der Dritte sagt "Ja"


    __________________________ Helmut Richter teaches us :

    In German, jokes are typically told with inversion in all
    sentences that belong to the narrative.


    (inverted) (normal)
    (inverted) (normal)

    Like in a simple musical tune. Maybe like:

    G C7
    G C (or Dm G C)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ruud Harmsen@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 19 08:02:09 2024
    XPost: alt.english.usage, soc.culture.german

    Wed, 19 Jun 2024 07:26:42 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
    scribeva:

    Tue, 18 Jun 2024 16:32:52 -0700: HenHanna <HenHanna@devnull.tb>
    scribeva:
    Das Gedicht „Nachtgedanken“ von Heinrich Heine.

    Denk ich an Deutschland in der Nacht,
    Dann bin ich um den Schlaf gebracht,
    Ich kann nicht mehr die Augen schließen,
    Und meine heißen Tränen fließen.

    --- it seems that...
    ich denke
    ich denk -------- is the usual form

    No, "ich denke" is the usual form. But in certain contexts, like in
    informal speech, for phonetic reasons (shwa-glottal stop-i doesn't
    sound nice, doesn't flow), or here in the poem for reasons of meter, >(_.._._._ is OK, _..._..._ is not),

    This is a nice example of how I find it hard to imagine why anyone
    would find this difficult. But that of course if because German, and
    my native Dutch, have the exact same possibilities in this case. For a
    speaker of a language in which this structure is not possible, like
    English, it IS of course difficult. I can rationally, intellectually, understand that difficulty, but I do not "feel" it.

    What you are used to, seems easy, even when it is not.
    Good language learning is by exposure. Engraving patterns in the
    brain, making them seem easy.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ruud Harmsen@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 19 07:26:42 2024
    XPost: alt.english.usage, soc.culture.german

    Tue, 18 Jun 2024 16:32:52 -0700: HenHanna <HenHanna@devnull.tb>
    scribeva:
    Das Gedicht „Nachtgedanken“ von Heinrich Heine.

    Denk ich an Deutschland in der Nacht,
    Dann bin ich um den Schlaf gebracht,
    Ich kann nicht mehr die Augen schließen,
    Und meine heißen Tränen fließen.

    --- it seems that...
    ich denke
    ich denk -------- is the usual form

    No, "ich denke" is the usual form. But in certain contexts, like in
    informal speech, for phonetic reasons (shwa-glottal stop-i doesn't
    sound nice, doesn't flow), or here in the poem for reasons of meter,
    (_.._._._ is OK, _..._..._ is not),

    by inversion [Denk ich] the verb becomes like Present-participle

    As said, phonetic reason and meter. Nothing to do with participles, it
    is just a present, first person singular. In connection with the
    "dann" in the next line, it becomes a condition, a context, "When I
    think of ..., then I".

    Denkend and Deutschland, Thinking of Germany would also be possible,
    like in the famous Dutch poem by Hendrik Marsman:
    "Denkend aan Holland zie ik brede rivieren
    Traag door oneindig laagland gaan."

    But "Denk ich" is not a participium.

    Like the [Kommen] at the Joke-opening, it seems to create
    a momentum to urge the reader to read the rest of the poem.

    I don't think so.

    ___________________is the (very first) [Denk] in a command form?

    No. The imperative usually doesn't have a personal pronoun, (except
    with the polite Sie), so the "ich" makes it an indicative, not an
    imperative.

    Overall Meaning: The line "Denk ich an Deutschland in der Nacht" >translates to "When I think of Germany at night." This clearly describes
    a recurring thought or action, not giving an order.

    So, "Denk" functions as the main verb in a subordinate clause, setting
    the condition for the speaker's sleepless state.

    Correct.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Christian Weisgerber@21:1/5 to Ruud Harmsen on Wed Jun 19 22:10:31 2024
    XPost: alt.english.usage, soc.culture.german

    On 2024-06-19, Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:

    Denk ich an Deutschland in der Nacht,
    Dann bin ich um den Schlaf gebracht,

    --- it seems that...
    ich denke
    ich denk -------- is the usual form

    No, "ich denke" is the usual form. But in certain contexts, like in
    informal speech, for phonetic reasons (shwa-glottal stop-i doesn't
    sound nice, doesn't flow), or here in the poem for reasons of meter,

    The present tense first person singular -e is frequently omitted
    in colloquial speech. This dovetails with another feature: A subject
    pronoun is frequently cliticized to a preceding verb. That is
    obvious for a reduced form (gibt es > gibt's), but it also applies
    to forms that are unreduced, at least in spelling, when the combination produces a trochee. "Denk ich" /ˈdɛnkɪç/ and "bin ich" /ˈbɪnɪç/
    are really pronounced as single words,

    When you slide further into colloquial or regional speech, reduction
    and assimilation extend this to further forms:
    denkst du > denkste
    denken wir > denkmer
    denken sie/Sie > denkense

    "Denkste!" specifically has been lexified into the standard language
    as an interjection <wiktionary>used to dismiss an idea as ridiculous
    or nonsensical</>. (Not sure I agree with that definition, but
    dictionary entries are scarce.)

    --
    Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From HenHanna@21:1/5 to HenHanna on Wed Jun 19 16:17:08 2024
    XPost: soc.culture.german, alt.usage.english, alt.language.latin

    On 6/18/2024 7:16 PM, HenHanna wrote:
    On 6/18/2024 4:40 PM, HenHanna wrote:
    On 6/18/2024 4:32 PM, HenHanna wrote:

    The German present participle is called Partizip I (Participle One)

              sprechen (to speak) ----->   sprechend (speaking)
                lachen (to laugh) ----->   lachend (laughing)

                    denken    --------->   denkend


    ____________________
                     (this almost has the 3!!! pattern that i'm looking for)


            Das Gedicht „Nachtgedanken“   von Heinrich Heine.

    Denk ich an Deutschland in der Nacht,
    Dann bin ich um den Schlaf gebracht,
    Ich kann nicht mehr die Augen schließen,
    Und meine heißen Tränen fließen.


         --- it seems that...

                 ich denke ------- is the usual form
                 ich denk  -------- is the usual form

    by inversion [Denk ich]  the verb becomes like Present-participle

    Like the [Kommen] at the Joke-opening, it seems to create
    a momentum to urge the reader to read the rest of the poem.


    thank you (again) for telling us that jokes are told in a
    repeated  Sentence-initial-Verb   form.

    i'm guessing that... it creates a sense of continuous Urging, urging...

    the feeling of....

                 THen the guy goes...  Then she says... and the Guy goes....
                  and the Dog barks... and the Cat jumps in....
                 ..........
                                    --->   (all the way to the Punch line.)


      i'm guessing that the Punch line can be told
                    in the usual  Verb-2nd form.  (for Finality)



    Kommen drei Logiker in eine Bar.
          Der Kellner fragt: "Na, was darfs sein, die Herren? Drei Bier?" Sagt der erste Logiker "Ich weiß nicht",
               der zweite auch "Ich weiß nicht" und
       der Dritte sagt "Ja"


    __________________________ Helmut Richter    teaches us :

       In German, jokes are typically told with inversion in all
    sentences that belong to the narrative.


                   (inverted)  (normal)
                   (inverted)  (normal)

    Like in a simple musical tune.       Maybe like:

                    G    C7
                    G    C        (or Dm G C)



    The present tense first person singular -e is frequently omitted
    in colloquial speech.

    Yes. i knew that. (Ich habe, vs. Ich hab')




    Denk ich an Deutschland in der Nacht,
    Dann bin ich um den Schlaf gebracht,
    Ich kann nicht mehr die Augen schließen,
    Und meine heißen Tränen fließen.


    [Denk ich...] in Latin, do you have this type of
    Sentence-initial verb?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Cryer@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jun 20 09:41:07 2024
    XPost: soc.culture.german, alt.usage.english, alt.language.latin

    SGVuSGFubmEgd3JvdGU6DQoNCj4gDQo+ICA+Pj4gRGVuayBpY2ggYW4gRGV1dHNjaGxhbmQg aW4gZGVyIE5hY2h0LA0KPiAgPj4+IERhbm4gYmluIGljaCB1bSBkZW4gU2NobGFmIGdlYnJh Y2h0LA0KPiAgPj4+IEljaCBrYW5uIG5pY2h0IG1laHIgZGllIEF1Z2VuIHNjaGxpZcOfZW4s DQo+ICA+Pj4gVW5kIG1laW5lIGhlacOfZW4gVHLDpG5lbiBmbGllw59lbi4NCj4gDQo+IA0K PiBbRGVuayBpY2guLi5dwqAgaW4gTGF0aW4sIGRvIHlvdSBoYXZlIHRoaXMgdHlwZSBvZg0K PiAgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDC oMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqAgU2VudGVuY2UtaW5pdGlhbCB2ZXJiPw0KPiANCj4gDQoNCkkn dmUgbm90IHNlZW4gdGhhdCBpbiBjbGFzc2ljYWwgTGF0aW4uDQpUaGV5IHByZWZlcnJlZCBh IHN1Ym9yZGluYXRlIGNsYXVzZTsgdXQgKHV0Y3VtcXVlKSBjb2dpdG8gLi4uDQoNCkEgZmF2 b3VyaXRlIGNvbnN0cnVjdGlvbiB3YXMgYSBwYXJ0aWNpcGxlOyBtaWhpIEdlcm1hbmlhbSBu b2N0dSANCmNvZ2l0YW50aSAuLi4NCg0KRWQNCg0KDQo=

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From wugi@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jun 20 23:41:05 2024
    XPost: alt.english.usage, soc.culture.german

    Op 20/06/2024 om 0:10 schreef Christian Weisgerber:
    On 2024-06-19, Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:

    Denk ich an Deutschland in der Nacht,
    Dann bin ich um den Schlaf gebracht,

    --- it seems that...
    ich denke
    ich denk -------- is the usual form

    No, "ich denke" is the usual form. But in certain contexts, like in
    informal speech, for phonetic reasons (shwa-glottal stop-i doesn't
    sound nice, doesn't flow), or here in the poem for reasons of meter,

    The present tense first person singular -e is frequently omitted
    in colloquial speech. This dovetails with another feature: A subject
    pronoun is frequently cliticized to a preceding verb. That is
    obvious for a reduced form (gibt es > gibt's), but it also applies
    to forms that are unreduced, at least in spelling, when the combination produces a trochee. "Denk ich" /ˈdɛnkɪç/ and "bin ich" /ˈbɪnɪç/
    are really pronounced as single words,

    When you slide further into colloquial or regional speech, reduction
    and assimilation extend this to further forms:
    denkst du > denkste
    denken wir > denkmer
    denken sie/Sie > denkense

    Only the "denkste" form feels like a true clitic to me (...)

    "Denkste!" specifically has been lexified into the standard language
    as an interjection <wiktionary>used to dismiss an idea as ridiculous
    or nonsensical</>. (Not sure I agree with that definition, but
    dictionary entries are scarce.)

    Siehste? or Siehste!
    Frequently heard in "die heute show" ;)

    (...) probably because we've got it too in Flemish dialects:

    denkte? (denkt ge? [nl] denk je?)
    Depending on assimilation it is also (mostly) -de:

    Ziede? (ziet ge? siehste? you see?)
    Komde? (komt ge? you come?)
    Zijde...? (zijt ge?/ben je? are you?)

    We can also still add the full pronoun*:
    Komde gij nog? Are you going to come?
    Wa-tenkte gij wel? What do you think you're... thinking?
    Dan doede (gij) 't maar alleen. (If you insist) then you'll be on your
    own doing this.

    * even in the 1st person:
    Dan komme'k ik morgen. (Dan kom ik morgen. Then I come tomorrow.)

    I was always convinced this clitic stems from (our) obsolete "du"
    pronoun, also given the German example. But I've read some sources
    denying this (forgotten which). So if anybody can shed light on the etymology...

    --
    guido wugi

    --
    guido wugi

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From HenHanna@21:1/5 to Ed Cryer on Thu Jun 20 15:42:18 2024
    XPost: soc.culture.german, alt.usage.english, alt.language.latin

    On 6/20/2024 1:41 AM, Ed Cryer wrote:
    HenHanna wrote:


    Denk ich an Deutschland in der Nacht,
    Dann bin ich um den Schlaf gebracht,
    Ich kann nicht mehr die Augen schließen,
    Und meine heißen Tränen fließen.


    [Denk ich...]  in Latin, do you have this type of
                                        Sentence-initial verb?



    I've not seen that in classical Latin.
    They preferred a subordinate clause; ut (utcumque) cogito ...

    A favourite construction was a participle; mihi Germaniam noctu
    cogitanti ...

    Ed


    Thank you.... my latest brush with Latin lit.... was

    Asinaria by Plautus.... i read and listened
    to the first 15 (?) min. of the opening scene.

    Demaenetus (Athenian gentleman) is talking to his wise slave Libanus
    ..........

    the way Libanus talks (back) doesn't suggest that he's a slave or
    servile at ALL!!! --- which is a bit odd.


    ‘nudo vestimenta detrahere me jubes’


    detrahere -- must be the ROOT form (just like French)

    [me jubes] word order is also like French!

    jubes is the most unfamiliar (of the 5 words)

    i guess... the [nudo] comes first ... for emphasis.



    trahere (in detrahere) must be cognate with Tractor, Traction


    ____________________________ A "detractor" bares the target-person Nude

    The word "detractor" comes from a Latin root that captures the essence
    of its meaning perfectly. Here's the etymology breakdown:

    Latin origin: Detractor directly comes from the Latin verb "detrahere"

    Latin verb meaning: "Detrahere" means "to take down, pull down,
    disparage, or speak ill of."

    ___________________________________
    The word "trattoria" has a delicious history rooted in treating people
    well! Here's the breakdown:

    Origin: Italian word "trattoria"

    Root: Italian "trattare" meaning "to treat"


    Latin connection: "trattare" comes from the Latin verb "tractare" which
    has a broader meaning of "to manage, handle, deal with, conduct oneself
    toward"

    Possible further back: The Latin word itself might be linked to
    "trahere" (past participle tractus) meaning "to pull, draw"


    ______________________________________
    While "jube" itself isn't commonly used in English, "jubeo" is the root
    for several English words related to commands and orders, such as:

    Jubilation: expressing great joy or triumph (derived from the idea of
    being commanded to celebrate)
    Jubilee: a special anniversary celebrating a reign or event (again,
    connected to the celebratory command)
    Injunction: a legal order

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Cryer@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jun 21 09:31:11 2024
    XPost: soc.culture.german, alt.usage.english, alt.language.latin

    SGVuSGFubmEgd3JvdGU6DQoNCj4gDQo+IFRoYW5rIHlvdS4uLi7CoCBteSBsYXRlc3QgYnJ1 c2ggd2l0aCBMYXRpbiBsaXQuLi4uIHdhcw0KPiANCj4gQXNpbmFyaWEgYnkgUGxhdXR1cy4u Li7CoMKgIGkgcmVhZCBhbmQgbGlzdGVuZWQNCj4gIMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDC oMKgwqAgdG8gdGhlIGZpcnN0IDE1ICg/KSBtaW4uIG9mIHRoZSBvcGVuaW5nIHNjZW5lLg0K PiANCj4gRGVtYWVuZXR1cyAoQXRoZW5pYW4gZ2VudGxlbWFuKSBpcyB0YWxraW5nIHRvIGhp cyB3aXNlIHNsYXZlIExpYmFudXMNCj4gLi4uLi4uLi4uLg0KPiANCj4gdGhlIHdheSBMaWJh bnVzIHRhbGtzIChiYWNrKSBkb2Vzbid0IHN1Z2dlc3QgdGhhdCBoZSdzIGEgc2xhdmUgb3Ig DQo+IHNlcnZpbGUgYXQgQUxMISEhwqAgLS0tIHdoaWNoIGlzIGEgYml0IG9kZC4NCj4gDQo+ IA0KPg0KDQpQbGF1dHVzIHdyb3RlIGNvbWVkaWVzLg0KU2xhdmVzIGFyZSB3aXNlciB0aGFu IHRoZWlyIG1hc3RlcnMsIHRhbGsgYmFjayBlYXNpbHkuDQpTb25zIGFyZSBjaGFzaW5nIHBy b3N0aXR1dGVzLg0KSHVzYmFuZHMgY2hhc2Ugb3RoZXIgd29tZW4uDQpCcm90aGVycyBtZWV0 IHVwIHdpdGggbG9uZy1sb3N0IGJyb3RoZXJzIHdobyB3ZXJlIHNvbGQgb3IgZW5zbGF2ZWQu DQoNCkl0IGFsbCByZWZsZWN0cyB0aGUgbGF0ZSBIZWxsZW5pc3RpYyB3b3JsZCBvZiBFdXJv cGUuDQoNCkVkDQo=

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From HenHanna@21:1/5 to Ed Cryer on Fri Jun 21 13:57:19 2024
    XPost: soc.culture.german, alt.usage.english, alt.language.latin

    On 6/21/2024 1:31 AM, Ed Cryer wrote:
    HenHanna wrote:


    Thank you....  my latest brush with Latin lit.... was

    Asinaria by Plautus....   i read and listened
                    to the first 15 (?) min. of the opening scene.

    Demaenetus (Athenian gentleman) is talking to his wise slave Libanus
    ..........

    the way Libanus talks (back) doesn't suggest that he's a slave or
    servile at ALL!!!  --- which is a bit odd.





    Plautus wrote comedies.
    Slaves are wiser than their masters, talk back easily.
    Sons are chasing prostitutes.
    Husbands chase other women.
    Brothers meet up with long-lost brothers who were sold or enslaved.

    It all reflects the late Hellenistic world of Europe.

    Ed


    wow!

    Jeeves, Benson... the wise Fools from Shakespeare.



    >>> Absolutely! Roman comedies, particularly those by
    Plautus, are famous for featuring "servus callidus," which translates to "clever slave."

    These characters are a major source of inspiration for Jeeves and
    Benson. Here are some prominent examples:

    Plautus: Playwright Plautus (2nd century BCE) is a key figure in
    Roman comedy. Many of his plays feature a "servus callidus" who outwits
    their masters and other characters. Some famous examples include:

    Pseudolus: The titular character, Pseudolus, is a cunning slave who devises elaborate schemes to help his young master get money.

    Tranio: In "Mostellaria," Tranio hatches a plan to hide his
    master's son's spending habits from his father.

    Palaestrio: This slave from "Miles Gloriosus" outwits a boastful
    soldier to help a young woman escape.


    Stock Character: The "clever slave" became a stock character in
    Roman comedy. These characters were often witty, resourceful, and more intelligent than their masters. They used their cunning to solve
    problems, often caused by their masters' foolishness.

    _______________________


    Libanus' role in the play:

    Demaenetus' Slave: Libanus serves Demaenetus, the play's central
    character.

    Facilitator: Demaenetus, aware of his son's affair with a
    prostitute, tasks Libanus with finding money to fund the escapades.


    Libanus plays a crucial role in devising schemes to get the money.

    Cunning Collaborator: Libanus works alongside another slave, Leonida, to
    trick a stranger into handing over money owed for some donkeys. This
    showcases their cleverness.

    ________________________


    The Comedy of Asses: A Summary

    Plautus' "Asinaria" (The Comedy of Asses) is a hilarious
    play filled with mistaken identities, witty slaves, and chaotic antics.

    Here's a breakdown of the plot:

    The Players:

    Demaenetus: A middle-aged Athenian gentleman, secretly supportive of his
    son's desires.

    Argyrippus: Demaenetus' son, in love with Philaenium, a prostitute
    next door.

    Philaenium: The beautiful object of Argyrippus' affection, but
    controlled by her ruthless mother.

    Cleareta: Philaenium's mother, a greedy procuress (brothel owner)
    who prioritizes profit.


    Libanus and Leonida: Demaenetus' clever slaves, key players in
    securing funds for Argyrippus.

    Saurea:
    Demaenetus' wife's steward, unknowingly involved
    in the money scheme.

    Pyrrhia:
    Demaenetus' formidable wife, unaware of the secret dealings.


    The Plot Thickens:

    Argyrippus desperately needs money to secure exclusive access to
    Philaenium for a year.

    Demaenetus, surprisingly understanding, seeks Libanus' help to raise the
    funds.

    Libanus and Leonida concoct a plan: they impersonate Saurea and
    trick a stranger who owes money for donkeys (asini in Latin, hence the
    title) into paying them.


    The money is used to secure Philaenium, but complications arise.


    Cleareta attempts to double-book Philaenium with another man, leading to hilarious chaos.

    Demaenetus, unexpectedly, wants a night with Philaenium himself,
    creating a love triangle.


    Libanus and Leonida devise further schemes to appease everyone and
    maintain the charade.



    The Resolution (with a Twist):

    Through a series of misunderstandings and frantic maneuvering, the
    slaves manage to keep everyone (mostly) happy.

    Demaenetus backs down from his Philaenium request, prioritizing his
    marriage.

    Argyrippus secures his year with Philaenium.


    The play ends with a sense of restored order, albeit a slightly
    precarious one.


    -------- sounds as good as Shakespeares's best comedies!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Cryer@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 22 15:45:21 2024
    XPost: soc.culture.german, alt.usage.english, alt.language.latin

    SGVuSGFubmEgd3JvdGU6DQo+IE9uIDYvMjEvMjAyNCAxOjMxIEFNLCBFZCBDcnllciB3cm90 ZToNCj4+IEhlbkhhbm5hIHdyb3RlOg0KPj4NCj4+Pg0KPj4+IFRoYW5rIHlvdS4uLi7CoCBt eSBsYXRlc3QgYnJ1c2ggd2l0aCBMYXRpbiBsaXQuLi4uIHdhcw0KPj4+DQo+Pj4gQXNpbmFy aWEgYnkgUGxhdXR1cy4uLi7CoMKgIGkgcmVhZCBhbmQgbGlzdGVuZWQNCj4+PiDCoMKgwqDC oMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqAgdG8gdGhlIGZpcnN0IDE1ICg/KSBtaW4uIG9mIHRo ZSBvcGVuaW5nIHNjZW5lLg0KPj4+DQo+Pj4gRGVtYWVuZXR1cyAoQXRoZW5pYW4gZ2VudGxl bWFuKSBpcyB0YWxraW5nIHRvIGhpcyB3aXNlIHNsYXZlIExpYmFudXMNCj4+PiAuLi4uLi4u Li4uDQo+Pj4NCj4+PiB0aGUgd2F5IExpYmFudXMgdGFsa3MgKGJhY2spIGRvZXNuJ3Qgc3Vn Z2VzdCB0aGF0IGhlJ3MgYSBzbGF2ZSBvciANCj4+PiBzZXJ2aWxlIGF0IEFMTCEhIcKgIC0t LSB3aGljaCBpcyBhIGJpdCBvZGQuDQo+Pj4NCj4gDQo+IA0KPiANCj4+DQo+PiBQbGF1dHVz IHdyb3RlIGNvbWVkaWVzLg0KPj4gU2xhdmVzIGFyZSB3aXNlciB0aGFuIHRoZWlyIG1hc3Rl cnMsIHRhbGsgYmFjayBlYXNpbHkuDQo+PiBTb25zIGFyZSBjaGFzaW5nIHByb3N0aXR1dGVz Lg0KPj4gSHVzYmFuZHMgY2hhc2Ugb3RoZXIgd29tZW4uDQo+PiBCcm90aGVycyBtZWV0IHVw IHdpdGggbG9uZy1sb3N0IGJyb3RoZXJzIHdobyB3ZXJlIHNvbGQgb3IgZW5zbGF2ZWQuDQo+ Pg0KPj4gSXQgYWxsIHJlZmxlY3RzIHRoZSBsYXRlIEhlbGxlbmlzdGljIHdvcmxkIG9mIEV1 cm9wZS4NCj4+DQo+PiBFZA0KPiANCj4gDQo+IHdvdyENCj4gDQo+IEplZXZlcywgQmVuc29u Li4uwqDCoCB0aGUgd2lzZSBGb29scyBmcm9tIFNoYWtlc3BlYXJlLg0KPiANCj4gDQo+IA0K PiAgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgID4+PsKgIEFic29sdXRlbHkhwqDCoMKgIFJvbWFuIGNvbWVkaWVz LCBwYXJ0aWN1bGFybHkgdGhvc2UgYnkgDQo+IFBsYXV0dXMsIGFyZSBmYW1vdXMgZm9yIGZl YXR1cmluZyAic2VydnVzIGNhbGxpZHVzLCIgd2hpY2ggdHJhbnNsYXRlcyB0byANCj4gImNs ZXZlciBzbGF2ZS4iDQo+IA0KPiBUaGVzZSBjaGFyYWN0ZXJzIGFyZSBhIG1ham9yIHNvdXJj ZSBvZiBpbnNwaXJhdGlvbiBmb3IgSmVldmVzIGFuZCANCj4gQmVuc29uLiBIZXJlIGFyZSBz b21lIHByb21pbmVudCBleGFtcGxlczoNCj4gDQo+IFBsYXV0dXM6wqDCoMKgIFBsYXl3cmln aHQgUGxhdXR1cyAoMm5kIGNlbnR1cnkgQkNFKSBpcyBhIGtleSBmaWd1cmUgaW4gDQo+IFJv bWFuIGNvbWVkeS4gTWFueSBvZiBoaXMgcGxheXMgZmVhdHVyZSBhICJzZXJ2dXMgY2FsbGlk dXMiIHdobyBvdXR3aXRzIA0KPiB0aGVpciBtYXN0ZXJzIGFuZCBvdGhlciBjaGFyYWN0ZXJz LsKgwqDCoCBTb21lIGZhbW91cyBleGFtcGxlcyBpbmNsdWRlOg0KPiANCj4gUHNldWRvbHVz OsKgwqDCoMKgwqAgVGhlIHRpdHVsYXIgY2hhcmFjdGVyLCBQc2V1ZG9sdXMsIGlzIGEgY3Vu bmluZyBzbGF2ZSB3aG8gDQo+IGRldmlzZXMgZWxhYm9yYXRlIHNjaGVtZXMgdG8gaGVscCBo aXMgeW91bmcgbWFzdGVyIGdldCBtb25leS4NCj4gDQo+IFRyYW5pbzrCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDC oMKgIEluICJNb3N0ZWxsYXJpYSwiIFRyYW5pbyBoYXRjaGVzIGEgcGxhbiB0byBoaWRlIGhp cyANCj4gbWFzdGVyJ3Mgc29uJ3Mgc3BlbmRpbmcgaGFiaXRzIGZyb20gaGlzIGZhdGhlci4N Cj4gDQo+IFBhbGFlc3RyaW86wqDCoMKgwqAgVGhpcyBzbGF2ZSBmcm9tICJNaWxlcyBHbG9y aW9zdXMiIG91dHdpdHMgYSBib2FzdGZ1bCANCj4gc29sZGllciB0byBoZWxwIGEgeW91bmcg d29tYW4gZXNjYXBlLg0KPiANCj4gDQo+IFN0b2NrIENoYXJhY3RlcjrCoMKgwqDCoCBUaGUg ImNsZXZlciBzbGF2ZSIgYmVjYW1lIGEgc3RvY2sgY2hhcmFjdGVyIGluIA0KPiBSb21hbiBj b21lZHkuwqAgVGhlc2UgY2hhcmFjdGVycyB3ZXJlIG9mdGVuIHdpdHR5LCByZXNvdXJjZWZ1 bCwgYW5kIG1vcmUgDQo+IGludGVsbGlnZW50IHRoYW4gdGhlaXIgbWFzdGVycy7CoMKgwqAg VGhleSB1c2VkIHRoZWlyIGN1bm5pbmcgdG8gc29sdmUgDQo+IHByb2JsZW1zLCBvZnRlbiBj YXVzZWQgYnkgdGhlaXIgbWFzdGVycycgZm9vbGlzaG5lc3MuDQo+IA0KPiBfX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiANCj4gDQo+ICDCoExpYmFudXMnIHJvbGUgaW4gdGhlIHBsYXk6 DQo+IA0KPiBEZW1hZW5ldHVzJyBTbGF2ZTrCoMKgwqDCoCBMaWJhbnVzIHNlcnZlcyBEZW1h ZW5ldHVzLCB0aGUgcGxheSdzIGNlbnRyYWwgDQo+IGNoYXJhY3Rlci4NCj4gDQo+IEZhY2ls aXRhdG9yOsKgwqDCoMKgIERlbWFlbmV0dXMsIGF3YXJlIG9mIGhpcyBzb24ncyBhZmZhaXIg d2l0aCBhIA0KPiBwcm9zdGl0dXRlLCB0YXNrcyBMaWJhbnVzIHdpdGggZmluZGluZyBtb25l eSB0byBmdW5kIHRoZSBlc2NhcGFkZXMuDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gTGliYW51cyBwbGF5cyBhIGNy dWNpYWwgcm9sZSBpbiBkZXZpc2luZyBzY2hlbWVzIHRvIGdldCB0aGUgbW9uZXkuDQo+IA0K PiBDdW5uaW5nIENvbGxhYm9yYXRvcjogTGliYW51cyB3b3JrcyBhbG9uZ3NpZGUgYW5vdGhl ciBzbGF2ZSwgTGVvbmlkYSwgdG8gDQo+IHRyaWNrIGEgc3RyYW5nZXIgaW50byBoYW5kaW5n IG92ZXIgbW9uZXkgb3dlZCBmb3Igc29tZSBkb25rZXlzLiBUaGlzIA0KPiBzaG93Y2FzZXMg dGhlaXIgY2xldmVybmVzcy4NCj4gDQo+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiAN Cj4gDQo+IFRoZSBDb21lZHkgb2YgQXNzZXM6IEEgU3VtbWFyeQ0KPiANCj4gIMKgwqDCoMKg wqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqAgUGxhdXR1cycgIkFzaW5hcmlhIiAoVGhlIENvbWVkeSBvZiBBc3Nl cykgaXMgYSBoaWxhcmlvdXMgDQo+IHBsYXkgZmlsbGVkIHdpdGggbWlzdGFrZW4gaWRlbnRp dGllcywgd2l0dHkgc2xhdmVzLCBhbmQgY2hhb3RpYyBhbnRpY3MuDQo+IA0KPiBIZXJlJ3Mg YSBicmVha2Rvd24gb2YgdGhlIHBsb3Q6DQo+IA0KPiBUaGUgUGxheWVyczoNCj4gDQo+IERl bWFlbmV0dXM6IEEgbWlkZGxlLWFnZWQgQXRoZW5pYW4gZ2VudGxlbWFuLCBzZWNyZXRseSBz dXBwb3J0aXZlIG9mIGhpcyANCj4gc29uJ3MgZGVzaXJlcy4NCj4gDQo+IEFyZ3lyaXBwdXM6 wqDCoMKgwqDCoCBEZW1hZW5ldHVzJyBzb24sIGluIGxvdmUgd2l0aCBQaGlsYWVuaXVtLCBh IHByb3N0aXR1dGUgDQo+IG5leHQgZG9vci4NCj4gDQo+IFBoaWxhZW5pdW06wqDCoMKgwqDC oMKgIFRoZSBiZWF1dGlmdWwgb2JqZWN0IG9mIEFyZ3lyaXBwdXMnIGFmZmVjdGlvbiwgYnV0 DQo+ICDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqAgY29udHJvbGxlZCBi eSBoZXIgcnV0aGxlc3MgbW90aGVyLg0KPiANCj4gQ2xlYXJldGE6wqDCoMKgwqAgUGhpbGFl bml1bSdzIG1vdGhlciwgYSBncmVlZHkgcHJvY3VyZXNzIChicm90aGVsIG93bmVyKQ0KPiAg wqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqAgd2hvIHByaW9yaXRpemVzIHByb2ZpdC4NCj4g DQo+IA0KPiBMaWJhbnVzIGFuZCBMZW9uaWRhOsKgwqDCoCBEZW1hZW5ldHVzJyBjbGV2ZXIg c2xhdmVzLCBrZXkgcGxheWVycyBpbiANCj4gc2VjdXJpbmcgZnVuZHMgZm9yIEFyZ3lyaXBw dXMuDQo+IA0KPiBTYXVyZWE6DQo+ICDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoCBEZW1hZW5ldHVz JyB3aWZlJ3Mgc3Rld2FyZCwgdW5rbm93aW5nbHkgaW52b2x2ZWQNCj4gIMKgwqDCoMKgwqDC oMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoCBpbiB0aGUgbW9uZXkgc2NoZW1lLg0KPiANCj4gUHlycmhpYToNCj4g IMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoCBEZW1hZW5ldHVzJyBmb3JtaWRhYmxlIHdpZmUsIHVuYXdh cmUgb2YgdGhlIHNlY3JldCBkZWFsaW5ncy4NCj4gDQo+IA0KPiBUaGUgUGxvdCBUaGlja2Vu czoNCj4gDQo+IEFyZ3lyaXBwdXMgZGVzcGVyYXRlbHkgbmVlZHMgbW9uZXkgdG8gc2VjdXJl IGV4Y2x1c2l2ZSBhY2Nlc3MgdG8gDQo+IFBoaWxhZW5pdW0gZm9yIGEgeWVhci4NCj4gDQo+ IERlbWFlbmV0dXMsIHN1cnByaXNpbmdseSB1bmRlcnN0YW5kaW5nLCBzZWVrcyBMaWJhbnVz JyBoZWxwIHRvIHJhaXNlIHRoZSANCj4gZnVuZHMuDQo+IA0KPiBMaWJhbnVzIGFuZCBMZW9u aWRhIGNvbmNvY3QgYSBwbGFuOsKgwqDCoMKgIHRoZXkgaW1wZXJzb25hdGUgU2F1cmVhIGFu ZCANCj4gdHJpY2sgYSBzdHJhbmdlciB3aG8gb3dlcyBtb25leSBmb3IgZG9ua2V5cyAoYXNp bmkgaW4gTGF0aW4sIGhlbmNlIHRoZSANCj4gdGl0bGUpIGludG8gcGF5aW5nIHRoZW0uDQo+ IA0KPiANCj4gVGhlIG1vbmV5IGlzIHVzZWQgdG8gc2VjdXJlIFBoaWxhZW5pdW0sIGJ1dCBj b21wbGljYXRpb25zIGFyaXNlLg0KPiANCj4gDQo+IENsZWFyZXRhIGF0dGVtcHRzIHRvIGRv dWJsZS1ib29rIFBoaWxhZW5pdW0gd2l0aCBhbm90aGVyIG1hbiwgbGVhZGluZyB0byANCj4g aGlsYXJpb3VzIGNoYW9zLg0KPiANCj4gRGVtYWVuZXR1cywgdW5leHBlY3RlZGx5LCB3YW50 cyBhIG5pZ2h0IHdpdGggUGhpbGFlbml1bSBoaW1zZWxmLCANCj4gY3JlYXRpbmcgYSBsb3Zl IHRyaWFuZ2xlLg0KPiANCj4gDQo+IExpYmFudXMgYW5kIExlb25pZGEgZGV2aXNlIGZ1cnRo ZXIgc2NoZW1lcyB0byBhcHBlYXNlIGV2ZXJ5b25lIGFuZCANCj4gbWFpbnRhaW4gdGhlIGNo YXJhZGUuDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gDQo+IFRoZSBSZXNvbHV0aW9uICh3aXRoIGEgVHdpc3QpOg0K PiANCj4gVGhyb3VnaCBhIHNlcmllcyBvZiBtaXN1bmRlcnN0YW5kaW5ncyBhbmQgZnJhbnRp YyBtYW5ldXZlcmluZywgdGhlIA0KPiBzbGF2ZXMgbWFuYWdlIHRvIGtlZXAgZXZlcnlvbmUg KG1vc3RseSkgaGFwcHkuDQo+IA0KPiBEZW1hZW5ldHVzIGJhY2tzIGRvd24gZnJvbSBoaXMg UGhpbGFlbml1bSByZXF1ZXN0LCBwcmlvcml0aXppbmcgaGlzIA0KPiBtYXJyaWFnZS4NCj4g DQo+IEFyZ3lyaXBwdXMgc2VjdXJlcyBoaXMgeWVhciB3aXRoIFBoaWxhZW5pdW0uDQo+IA0K PiANCj4gVGhlIHBsYXkgZW5kcyB3aXRoIGEgc2Vuc2Ugb2YgcmVzdG9yZWQgb3JkZXIsIGFs YmVpdCBhIHNsaWdodGx5IA0KPiBwcmVjYXJpb3VzIG9uZS4NCj4gDQo+IA0KPiAgwqDCoMKg wqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqAgLS0tLS0tLS0gc291bmRzIGFzIGdvb2QgYXPCoCBTaGFrZXNwZWFy ZXMnc8KgIGJlc3QgY29tZWRpZXMhDQo+IA0KDQpUaGUgY29tZWRpZXMgb2YgUGxhdXR1cyBh bmQgVGVyZW5jZSBhcmUgdmVyeSAod2hhdCdzIHRoZSB3b3JkPykgDQpyZXN0cmFpbmVkOyBv ciBtYXliZSwgZ2VudGxlLiBUaGV5IGFyZSByYXRoZXIgbGlrZSBvdXIgc2l0Y29tcywgd2l0 aCBhIA0Kc2F0aXJpY2FsIHN0cmVhay4gVGFrZW4gZnJvbSB0aGUgR3JlZWsgTmV3IENvbWVk eSBvZiBNZW5hbmRlciBhbmQgUGhpbGVtb24uDQpJIHByZWZlciB0aGUgcmF1Y291cyBzYXRp cmUgb2YgY2xhc3NpY2FsIEdyZWVjZTsgdGhlIHBsYXlzIG9mIA0KQXJpc3RvcGhhbmVzLiBU aGV5IHNhdGlyaXNlIGlkZWFzIGFuZCBwb2xpdGljYWwgaWRlb2xvZ2llcywgYW5kIHRoZXJl J3MgDQpub3QgbXVjaCBnZW50bGVuZXNzIGluIHRoZW0uIEFuZCB3aGVuIGl0IGNvbWVzIHRv IHNsYW5kZXIsIHdlbGwsIHRoZXkgDQpkb24ndCBob2xkIGJhY2sgb25lIGluY2g7IHRoZXkg bGF5IGludG8gcG9saXRpY2lhbnMsIGZhbW91cyBjaGFyYWN0ZXJzLCANCmZlbGxvdyBwbGF5 d3JpZ2h0cywgd2l0aCBmdWxsIGd1c3RvLg0KDQpFZA0KDQo=

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)