Does anyone (with knowledge of phonetics, phonology)
care to comment on how the Anglo-American views about
Japs can't pronounce L's (the Japanese convert L's into R's)
have changed in the last 30 years or so?
Among those who know linguistics, and the lay public? Any changes?
Among US-youths, the level of general interest (in the Jp lang)
has changed greatly, because of Anime and Jpop (City pop).
i'm hearing that fewer Americans are studying Chinese now.
How about Japanese, Korean?
Does anyone (with knowledge of phonetics, phonology)
care to comment on how the Anglo-American views about
Japs can't pronounce L's (the Japanese convert L's into R's)
HenHanna wrote:
Does anyone (with knowledge of phonetics, phonology)
care to comment on how the Anglo-American views about
Japs can't pronounce L's (the Japanese convert L's into R's)
"japs" ????? really?
Tilde <invalide@invalid.invalid> wrote:
HenHanna wrote:
"japs" ????? really?
Does anyone (with knowledge of phonetics, phonology)
care to comment on how the Anglo-American views about
Japs can't pronounce L's (the Japanese convert L's into R's) >>
It seems so. It may be a clue to the Hen being Dutch.
In circles of descendants of the white Dutch from Indonesia
'Jap' is routinely used as a denigrating and racist term.
The Japanese consider the use of 'Jap' for them as insulting,
but those people either don't want to know that, or do it deliberately.
The fact that their kind of white suprematist [1]
was deeply humiliated by the Japanese during WWIIy rankled,
and some of them never got over it.
Some of their children and grandchildren have inherited the outlook.
Also in the use of 'Jappenkamp',
for the internment camps for women and children in Indonesia.
All this has been a cause of controversy:
some less narrowminded authors with colonial roots
have protested vehemently against this narrow-minded outlook.
All just a possibility of course.
So directly for the Hen: are you Dutch?
Jan
[1] For comparison: The Dutch in Indonesia were in general more racist
and exclusive that the British in their India,
and in consequence made a far greater mess of it after WWII.
Amazing lot, going to the ends of the Earth to grab whatever they could. Active!
On 5/07/2024 8:29 a.m., J. J. Lodder wrote:
Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) writes:
Whoever, it is a good usage point to remember that 'Jap',
no matter how used, is considered to be denigrating and insulting
by the Japanese. Even as Jap., in well-meaning abbreviations.
So best advice is to avoid it under all circumstances,
Interesting to note that Neal Stephenson, in _Cryptonomicon_, has
USain characters, marines actively engaged in WWII in the Pacific
theater who consistently refer to their foes as "Nips".
The only occasion of "Jap" usage is by a Colonel at Marine Barracks
in DC when interviewing a seargeant recently returned form active
combat duty in the Pacific. A footnote says,
Men with experience in Asia use the term "Nip". The Colonel's use
of "Jap" suggests that his career has been spent in the Atlantic >>> and/or Caribbean.
P. 114 in the original hardcover ed. if anyone cares.
There a a few other uses of 'Jap' in the book,
outnumbered by the use of 'Nips'.
The author also uses 'Nipponese' a lot.
But then the 'Yanks also outnumber the Americans.
During wars, many people may use denigrating slang
to refer to their enemies.
It is also common that after those wars have been over for some time,
using the same denigrating terms gets frowned upon.
It gets to be regarded as uncivilised behaviour.
Like refering to Hirohito, on a state visit to the Netherlands,
as 'that Jap'. (1971)
Some groups however suffer from deep frustrations,
and go on with it forever.
It becomes just a symptom,
Jan
"Nippon" is the way they say it in Japanese (nowadays more commonly
"Nihon"). The J- versions have come to the west via Chinese (cf. Marco
Polo's "Zipangu"). Perhaps that is part of what the Japanese don't like
about them.
This all brought back a phrase which lodged in my mind years ago. My
sister was reading "Three Came Home", Agnes Newton Keith's memoir of her experiences in a Japanese internment camp in North Borneo, 1942-45. The internees were allowed to write letters to family, but they were
required to refer to their captors as "the friendly Nipponese".
bertietaylor <bertietaylor@novabbs.com.invalid> wrote:
[on the Dutch]
Amazing lot, going to the ends of the Earth to grab whatever they could.
Active!
As far as Nagasaki, anyway.
The Dutch didn't grab anything there, they traded.
They were succesful in that, precisely because
they did not try to grab anything.
(that's what the Spanish and the Portugese were kicked out for)
On 05/07/24 06:28, J. J. Lodder wrote:
bertietaylor <bertietaylor@novabbs.com.invalid> wrote:
[on the Dutch]
Amazing lot, going to the ends of the Earth to grab whatever they could. >> Active!
As far as Nagasaki, anyway.
The Dutch didn't grab anything there, they traded.
They were succesful in that, precisely because
they did not try to grab anything.
(that's what the Spanish and the Portugese were kicked out for)
That was part of the reason. Another important part was that the Spanish
and Portuguese tried to convert people to Christianity.
One bit of information that the Dutch brought to Japan was the fact that there was more than one Christian religion, and that the Christians did
not agree amongst themselves on religious questions.
On 05/07/24 06:28, J. J. Lodder wrote:
bertietaylor <bertietaylor@novabbs.com.invalid> wrote:
[on the Dutch]
Amazing lot, going to the ends of the Earth to grab whatever they could. >>> Active!yncrati
As far as Nagasaki, anyway.
The Dutch didn't grab anything there, they traded.
They were succesful in that, precisely because
they did not try to grab anything.
(that's what the Spanish and the Portugese were kicked out for)
That was part of the reason. Another important part was that the Spanish
and Portuguese tried to convert people to Christianity.
One bit of information that the Dutch brought to Japan was the fact that there was more than one Christian religion, and that the Christians did
not agree amongst themselves on religious questions.
(In the long term, the accumulation of more and more religions is a path
to atheism.)
On 05/07/24 06:28, J. J. Lodder wrote:
bertietaylor <bertietaylor@novabbs.com.invalid> wrote:
[on the Dutch]
Amazing lot, going to the ends of the Earth to grab whatever they could. >>> Active!
As far as Nagasaki, anyway.
The Dutch didn't grab anything there, they traded.
They were succesful in that, precisely because
they did not try to grab anything.
(that's what the Spanish and the Portugese were kicked out for)
That was part of the reason. Another important part was that the Spanish
and Portuguese tried to convert people to Christianity.
One bit of information that the Dutch brought to Japan was the fact that there was more than one Christian religion, and that the Christians did
not agree amongst themselves on religious questions.
(In the long term, the accumulation of more and more religions is a path
to atheism.)
Peter Moylan wrote:
On 05/07/24 06:28, J. J. Lodder wrote:
bertietaylor <bertietaylor@novabbs.com.invalid> wrote:
[on the Dutch]
Amazing lot, going to the ends of the Earth to grab whatever they could. >>> Active!
As far as Nagasaki, anyway.
The Dutch didn't grab anything there, they traded.
They were succesful in that, precisely because
they did not try to grab anything.
(that's what the Spanish and the Portugese were kicked out for)
That was part of the reason. Another important part was that the Spanish and Portuguese tried to convert people to Christianity.
One bit of information that the Dutch brought to Japan was the fact that there was more than one Christian religion, and that the Christians did
not agree amongst themselves on religious questions.
(In the long term, the accumulation of more and more religions is a path
to atheism.)
Recently read "A Jesuit in the Forbidden City:
Matteo Ricci, 1552-1610". Worth plowing through.
From the book and the wiki page on him, it
appears that China kept things pretty well
contained:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matteo_Ricci
"At the time, Christian missionary activity
in China was almost completely limited to
Macau..."
Ricci did an amazing amount of work learning
Chinese, both speaking and reading:
"Once in Macau, Ricci studied the Chinese
language and customs. It was the beginning
of a long project that made him one of the
first Western scholars to master Chinese
script and Classical Chinese. "
Not much mention of Ricci in this group
from what I see in google.
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