XPost: alt.usage.english

On Thu, 25 Jul 2024 15:19:17 -0700, HenHanna <HenHanna@devnull.tb>
wrote:

There is a (Windows) tool called Photos (Jpg, Png-viewer) --- i
don't like it because it launches sluggishly....

Esp. in the last 5 days or so, i'm noticing that almost every day i
have to go to Properties to change it back to my fav. Jpg,
Png-viewer tool

because the Windows update (?) is pushing Photos on me.

I can't remember when Windows introduced those "applets" that are so inconvenient to use. It's been a long time, though, and Microsoft still
hasn't managed to improve them to a level that's expected from "normal" software.

In other operating systems, the solution is simple. If a program is a
piece of crap and you can't imagine ever wanting to use it, you delete
it. Microsoft has discovered a way to stop you from deleting the crap.
There's some very annoying stuff in Windows 10 that I can't manage to
suppress. Even if I manage to delete it, it will reappear in the next
update.

I presume that the updates will stop after some end-of-life date, but
why keep torturing us until then?

--
Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english

Tony Cooper wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jul 2024 15:19:17 -0700, HenHanna <HenHanna@devnull.tb>

There is a (Windows) tool called Photos (Jpg, Png-viewer) --- i don't
like it
because it launches sluggishly....

Esp. in the last 5 days or so, i'm noticing that almost every day
i have to go to Properties to change it back to
my fav. Jpg, Png-viewer tool

because the Windows update (?) is pushing Photos on me.

is there a Fix for this???

I have thousands of images from .jpgs to .pngs on my computer. I use
the (free) FastStone Photo Viewer. It's not only a great image
viewer, but offers many other options from selecting by tagged images
to bulk re-naming. It's set as my default viewer.

https://www.faststone.org/

https://www.irfanview.com/

I'm on windows 10, once installed I have to jump
through a couple of hoops to make it the default
but that's a one time thing. My one nit to pick is
that it doesn't have an auto update feature.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english

On Thu, 25 Jul 2024 21:47:38 -0600, Tilde <invalide@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

Tony Cooper wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jul 2024 15:19:17 -0700, HenHanna <HenHanna@devnull.tb>

There is a (Windows) tool called Photos (Jpg, Png-viewer) --- i don't >>> like it
because it launches sluggishly....

Esp. in the last 5 days or so, i'm noticing that almost every day
i have to go to Properties to change it back to
my fav. Jpg, Png-viewer tool

because the Windows update (?) is pushing Photos on me.

is there a Fix for this???

I have thousands of images from .jpgs to .pngs on my computer. I use
the (free) FastStone Photo Viewer. It's not only a great image
viewer, but offers many other options from selecting by tagged images
to bulk re-naming. It's set as my default viewer.

https://www.faststone.org/

https://www.irfanview.com/

I have both Faststone and Irfanview, and I like Faststone better.

What I remember last using Irfanview for was when I wanted
to change the default orientation of some pictures that were
usually wrong (downloaded from my off-brand phone).

IIRC, Faststone would rotate them okay for PC display by Faststone,
but they would be wrong when uploaded to Face Book.

I'm on windows 10, once installed I have to jump
through a couple of hoops to make it the default
but that's a one time thing. My one nit to pick is
that it doesn't have an auto update feature.

I remember spending a lot of time before I figured out how to
stop Onedrive, their automatic backup to the cloud, from
acting and from pestering me. (Run the program and find
the turn-off option.)

--
Rich Ulrich

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english

Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jul 2024 21:47:38 -0600, Tilde <invalide@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

Tony Cooper wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jul 2024 15:19:17 -0700, HenHanna <HenHanna@devnull.tb>

There is a (Windows) tool called Photos (Jpg, Png-viewer) --- i don't >>>> like it
because it launches sluggishly....

Esp. in the last 5 days or so, i'm noticing that almost every day
i have to go to Properties to change it back to
my fav. Jpg, Png-viewer tool

because the Windows update (?) is pushing Photos on me.

is there a Fix for this???

I have thousands of images from .jpgs to .pngs on my computer. I use
the (free) FastStone Photo Viewer. It's not only a great image
viewer, but offers many other options from selecting by tagged images
to bulk re-naming. It's set as my default viewer.

https://www.faststone.org/

https://www.irfanview.com/

I have both Faststone and Irfanview, and I like Faststone better.

What I remember last using Irfanview for was when I wanted
to change the default orientation of some pictures that were
usually wrong (downloaded from my off-brand phone).

IIRC, Faststone would rotate them okay for PC display by Faststone,
but they would be wrong when uploaded to Face Book.

Opening and saving a lossy format like jpg will usually result in... loss
of quality. For the specific purpose of rotating by multiples of 90°, it's usually possible to do it losslessly, by just, well, rotating the encoded
data (rather than. decoding, rotating, and reencoding). There may also be
the possibility of specifying in the preamble what orientation the data
has, and maybe this is what solved the issue for one program but not for
fb, that paragon of quality software (maybe it just assumes the data orientation rather than reading it from the file).

Anyway, I don't know if your faststone has lossless rotation, maybe it
does. If not, there's a few utilities that can do it. AnnyStudio JPEG
Lossless Rotator seems to be one such.

I'm on windows 10, once installed I have to jump
through a couple of hoops to make it the default
but that's a one time thing. My one nit to pick is
that it doesn't have an auto update feature.

I remember spending a lot of time before I figured out how to
stop Onedrive, their automatic backup to the cloud, from
acting and from pestering me. (Run the program and find
the turn-off option.)

Apparently there's two OneDrives, one of which comes with Office, and both
tend to get reinstalled now and then.

And that abomination known as 'Teams', which insists on getting installed whenever you install anything else by MS.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english

On 26/07/2024 07:20, Rich Ulrich wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jul 2024 21:47:38 -0600, Tilde <invalide@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

Tony Cooper wrote:

<snip>

I have thousands of images from .jpgs to .pngs on my computer. I use
the (free) FastStone Photo Viewer. It's not only a great image
viewer, but offers many other options from selecting by tagged images
to bulk re-naming. It's set as my default viewer.

https://www.faststone.org/

https://www.irfanview.com/

I have both Faststone and Irfanview, and I like Faststone better.

Same here.

However, you should bear in mind that Irfanview is the more accomplished
of the two. It has a far more comprehensive set of functions.

What I remember last using Irfanview for was when I wanted
to change the default orientation of some pictures that were
usually wrong (downloaded from my off-brand phone).

IIRC, Faststone would rotate them okay for PC display by Faststone,
but they would be wrong when uploaded to Face Book.

I think you must've missed the warning given by the 'rotate' function of Faststone. It clearly states (at the point of clicking the rotate arrow)
that the rotation is for display purposes, and that the image will
return to its normal orientation after the display.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english

On 25/07/2024 at 23:19, HenHanna wrote:

There is a (Windows) tool called Photos (Jpg, Png-viewer) --- i don't
like it
because it launches sluggishly....

Esp. in the last 5 days or so, i'm noticing that almost every day
i have to go to Properties to change it back to
my fav. Jpg, Png-viewer tool

because the Windows update (?) is pushing Photos on me.

is there a Fix for this???

Not exactly a fix, but try "Photos Legacy", i.e. the original application.


--
Chris Elvidge, England
ADDING "JUST KIDDING" DOESN'T MAKE IT OKAY TO INSULT THE PRINCIPAL

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english

Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jul 2024 21:47:38 -0600, Tilde <invalide@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

Tony Cooper wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jul 2024 15:19:17 -0700, HenHanna <HenHanna@devnull.tb>

There is a (Windows) tool called Photos (Jpg, Png-viewer) --- i don't >>>> like it
because it launches sluggishly....

Esp. in the last 5 days or so, i'm noticing that almost every day
i have to go to Properties to change it back to
my fav. Jpg, Png-viewer tool

because the Windows update (?) is pushing Photos on me.

is there a Fix for this???

I have thousands of images from .jpgs to .pngs on my computer. I use
the (free) FastStone Photo Viewer. It's not only a great image
viewer, but offers many other options from selecting by tagged images
to bulk re-naming. It's set as my default viewer.

https://www.faststone.org/

https://www.irfanview.com/

I have both Faststone and Irfanview, and I like Faststone better.

What I remember last using Irfanview for was when I wanted
to change the default orientation of some pictures that were
usually wrong (downloaded from my off-brand phone).

IIRC, Faststone would rotate them okay for PC display by Faststone,
but they would be wrong when uploaded to Face Book.

Opening and saving a lossy format like jpg will usually result in... loss
of quality.

That's ancient folklore, from the times when 640x480 was a big image.
It may get noticable, but only when you order a huge reduction
in file size,

Jan

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english

J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:

Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jul 2024 21:47:38 -0600, Tilde <invalide@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

Tony Cooper wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jul 2024 15:19:17 -0700, HenHanna <HenHanna@devnull.tb>

There is a (Windows) tool called Photos (Jpg, Png-viewer) --- i don't >>>>>> like it
because it launches sluggishly....

Esp. in the last 5 days or so, i'm noticing that almost every day
i have to go to Properties to change it back to
my fav. Jpg, Png-viewer tool

because the Windows update (?) is pushing Photos on me.

is there a Fix for this???

I have thousands of images from .jpgs to .pngs on my computer. I use >>>>> the (free) FastStone Photo Viewer. It's not only a great image
viewer, but offers many other options from selecting by tagged images >>>>> to bulk re-naming. It's set as my default viewer.

https://www.faststone.org/

https://www.irfanview.com/

I have both Faststone and Irfanview, and I like Faststone better.

What I remember last using Irfanview for was when I wanted
to change the default orientation of some pictures that were
usually wrong (downloaded from my off-brand phone).

IIRC, Faststone would rotate them okay for PC display by Faststone,
but they would be wrong when uploaded to Face Book.

Opening and saving a lossy format like jpg will usually result in... loss
of quality.

That's ancient folklore, from the times when 640x480 was a big image.
It may get noticable, but only when you order a huge reduction
in file size,

....no, it's the logical and unavoidable result of applying a lossy
encoding, all the more since the jpeg algorithm won't be the exact same
every time, and will throw out slightly different parts of the signal. It
will obviously be worse the lower the resolution is to begin with, but
that's a different issue.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english

Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 28 Jul 2024 13:17:01 -0000 (UTC), Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:

J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:

Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jul 2024 21:47:38 -0600, Tilde <invalide@invalid.invalid> >>>>> wrote:

Tony Cooper wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jul 2024 15:19:17 -0700, HenHanna <HenHanna@devnull.tb> >>>>>>>> There is a (Windows) tool called Photos (Jpg, Png-viewer) --- i don't

like it
because it launches sluggishly....

Esp. in the last 5 days or so, i'm noticing that almost every day >>>>>>>> i have to go to Properties to change it back to
my fav. Jpg, Png-viewer tool

because the Windows update (?) is pushing Photos on me.

is there a Fix for this???

I have thousands of images from .jpgs to .pngs on my computer. I use >>>>>>> the (free) FastStone Photo Viewer. It's not only a great image
viewer, but offers many other options from selecting by tagged images >>>>>>> to bulk re-naming. It's set as my default viewer.

https://www.faststone.org/

https://www.irfanview.com/

I have both Faststone and Irfanview, and I like Faststone better.

What I remember last using Irfanview for was when I wanted
to change the default orientation of some pictures that were
usually wrong (downloaded from my off-brand phone).

IIRC, Faststone would rotate them okay for PC display by Faststone,
but they would be wrong when uploaded to Face Book.

Opening and saving a lossy format like jpg will usually result in... loss >>>> of quality.

That's ancient folklore, from the times when 640x480 was a big image.
It may get noticable, but only when you order a huge reduction
in file size,

....no, it's the logical and unavoidable result of applying a lossy
encoding, all the more since the jpeg algorithm won't be the exact same
every time, and will throw out slightly different parts of the signal. It
will obviously be worse the lower the resolution is to begin with, but
that's a different issue.

The real point, though, is whether or not any degradation is visible
to the naked eye. A .jpg has to be manipulated several times before a
change is visible even by zooming in on the pixels.

The degradation is there in theory, but not in practice for the most
part.

The problem is that it is cumulative and insidious and, to the point, there
is no need for it. If you know offhand that your source material won't
suffer more than a couple of iterations, then fine. Otherwise, what would
be the point of repeatedly reencoding a picture, or a video, or an audio
file?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english

Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:

J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:

Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jul 2024 21:47:38 -0600, Tilde <invalide@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

Tony Cooper wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jul 2024 15:19:17 -0700, HenHanna <HenHanna@devnull.tb> >>>>>> There is a (Windows) tool called Photos (Jpg, Png-viewer) --- i >>>>>> don't like it because it launches sluggishly....

Esp. in the last 5 days or so, i'm noticing that almost every day >>>>>> i have to go to Properties to change it back to
my fav. Jpg, Png-viewer tool

because the Windows update (?) is pushing Photos on me.

is there a Fix for this???

I have thousands of images from .jpgs to .pngs on my computer. I use >>>>> the (free) FastStone Photo Viewer. It's not only a great image
viewer, but offers many other options from selecting by tagged images >>>>> to bulk re-naming. It's set as my default viewer.

https://www.faststone.org/

https://www.irfanview.com/

I have both Faststone and Irfanview, and I like Faststone better.

What I remember last using Irfanview for was when I wanted
to change the default orientation of some pictures that were
usually wrong (downloaded from my off-brand phone).

IIRC, Faststone would rotate them okay for PC display by Faststone,
but they would be wrong when uploaded to Face Book.

Opening and saving a lossy format like jpg will usually result in... loss >> of quality.

That's ancient folklore, from the times when 640x480 was a big image.
It may get noticable, but only when you order a huge reduction
in file size,

....no, it's the logical and unavoidable result of applying a lossy
encoding, all the more since the jpeg algorithm won't be the exact same
every time, and will throw out slightly different parts of the signal. It will obviously be worse the lower the resolution is to begin with, but
that's a different issue.

You are merely regurgitating theory.
Have you ever tried to have a look at it?
'Everybody' knows that jpeg is not lossless, and therefore -BAD-.
Few people ask themselves: -what is it- that is being 'lost'.
(and is that good or bad)

In many cases the loss of so called 'information'
is actually a good thing.
There is 'information' and 'information'. [1]
In reducing RAW data to best quality jpeg,
what the jpeg keeps in mostly actual, real, image information. [2]
What jpeg 'loses' is mostly noise, such as sensor noise
and quantisation noise.

Apart from that there is usually a huge amount of redundancy
in an image that encodes each pixel separately,
with for example 14 bits/pixel.
Typical example: the blue sky may take up half the magabytes
of your raw sensor data.
Almost all the 'information' in those bits is redundant,
and most of what isn't redundant is noise.
Reducing the redundancy (and averaging the noise)
doesn't involve any real loss of image quality. [3]

Jan

[1] Remember that is picture which consists of nothing but noise
contains the most 'information' of all, in the informational sense
of 'information'.
[2] Yes, I know, there are obvious exceptions,
such as when your camera has a stuck pixel.
[3] Extreme example: consider an image that is uniformly medium grey.
Jpeg will reduce the 'information content' in the form of file size
by 99.99999%, to just a few bytes, with no loss at all
of picture content.
The moral: it isn't as simple as you seem to think it is.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english

J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:

Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:

J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:

Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jul 2024 21:47:38 -0600, Tilde <invalide@invalid.invalid> >>>>> wrote:

Tony Cooper wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jul 2024 15:19:17 -0700, HenHanna <HenHanna@devnull.tb> >>>>>>>> There is a (Windows) tool called Photos (Jpg, Png-viewer) --- i >>>>>>>> don't like it because it launches sluggishly....

Esp. in the last 5 days or so, i'm noticing that almost every day >>>>>>>> i have to go to Properties to change it back to
my fav. Jpg, Png-viewer tool

because the Windows update (?) is pushing Photos on me.

is there a Fix for this???

I have thousands of images from .jpgs to .pngs on my computer. I use >>>>>>> the (free) FastStone Photo Viewer. It's not only a great image
viewer, but offers many other options from selecting by tagged images >>>>>>> to bulk re-naming. It's set as my default viewer.

https://www.faststone.org/

https://www.irfanview.com/

I have both Faststone and Irfanview, and I like Faststone better.

What I remember last using Irfanview for was when I wanted
to change the default orientation of some pictures that were
usually wrong (downloaded from my off-brand phone).

IIRC, Faststone would rotate them okay for PC display by Faststone,
but they would be wrong when uploaded to Face Book.

Opening and saving a lossy format like jpg will usually result in... loss >>>> of quality.

That's ancient folklore, from the times when 640x480 was a big image.
It may get noticable, but only when you order a huge reduction
in file size,

....no, it's the logical and unavoidable result of applying a lossy
encoding, all the more since the jpeg algorithm won't be the exact same
every time, and will throw out slightly different parts of the signal. It
will obviously be worse the lower the resolution is to begin with, but
that's a different issue.

You are merely regurgitating theory.

That remark says more about you than about me.

I've pointed out the name of a tool that rotates jpegs losslessly. Because,
you know, reencoding with a lossy codec is lossy. You chose that hill to
die on. OK, you do you.

Have you ever tried to have a look at it?

Such as what, the endless stream of ruined jpegs people keep sharing on the Web?

Such as the pictures that people 'scan' with $50 scanner and then spend
hours retouching, ending up with an oil painting?

'Everybody' knows that jpeg is not lossless, and therefore -BAD-.
Few people ask themselves: -what is it- that is being 'lost'.
(and is that good or bad)

Fewer people even express a preference for loss while denying it's loss,
but here we've found one!

Years ago on hydrogenaudio some guy said his sister preferred her music
with a low pass filter. It's perfectly legitimate. She didn't try to claim
it was crystal clear.

In many cases the loss of so called 'information'
is actually a good thing.
There is 'information' and 'information'. [1]

If you understood the issue, you'd know that 'loss of information' doesn't
mean 'smoothing of data'. Yes, smoothing can be loss, but in the case of digital codecs actual loss is the difference between the input and the
output, which, more than missing data, has extraneous data, sometimes known
as 'artifacts'.

In reducing RAW data to best quality jpeg,

Nobody even suggested the conversation was about RAW -> jpeg. In fact, the conversation wasn't even specifically about photos.

what the jpeg keeps in mostly actual, real, image information. [2]
What jpeg 'loses' is mostly noise, such as sensor noise
and quantisation noise.

Not at all. Digital photography noise shows up beautifully in jpegs, and compounded. It's areas without noise such as skies and lit expanses that
tend to fare the best. Because they're full of light. The sensor isn't scavenging for photons. There are few abrupt edges or dots, that cause the
most problems to the jpeg transform.

The problems always start with shadows.

Apart from that there is usually a huge amount of redundancy
in an image that encodes each pixel separately,
with for example 14 bits/pixel.
Typical example: the blue sky may take up half the magabytes
of your raw sensor data.
Almost all the 'information' in those bits is redundant,
and most of what isn't redundant is noise.
Reducing the redundancy (and averaging the noise)
doesn't involve any real loss of image quality. [3]

It's telling that your 'example' is of an extreme case. Plus, redundancy of data is a boon to any compression algorithm, not just lossy ones. You may
be surprised to find that not all your RAW files have the same size.

At any rate, it's utterly irrelevant to the discussion, which was never
about RAW -> jpeg. To be honest I don't even know where you got that from,
the few references to personal photography were mostly about film.

Jan

[1] Remember that is picture which consists of nothing but noise
contains the most 'information' of all, in the informational sense
of 'information'.
[2] Yes, I know, there are obvious exceptions,
such as when your camera has a stuck pixel.
[3] Extreme example: consider an image that is uniformly medium grey.
Jpeg will reduce the 'information content' in the form of file size
by 99.99999%, to just a few bytes, with no loss at all
of picture content.

Actually, cartoon-like images are where jpeg's flaws show up more easily,
and that's why those are sensibly distributed as PNG. Actual photos or realistic drawings with gradients is pretty much where anyone will use jpeg these days. Unless, of course, they don't know what they're doing.

The moral: it isn't as simple as you seem to think it is.

I have absolutely no idea what you think I think 'the moral' is, all the
more since I didn't even know there was a moral at stake.

Apparently your moral is that one should rotate one's jpeg photos every day with a destructive tool, because each time will throw out more unwanted
data.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)