English is so riddled with Latin (often taken in through French) that
it's almost turned into a Romance language.
Peter Moylan wrote:
On 14/09/24 18:16, Ed Cryer wrote:
English is so riddled with Latin (often taken in through French) that
�it's almost turned into a Romance language.
As someone pointed out here quite recently: German is made harder for an English speaker to learn because so much Germanic vocabulary -- words
that used to exist in English -- has simply dropped out of the English language.
It's calculated that about 5.6% of German words are from Latin; whereas English has well over 60%.
I can't help but wonder how to account for that, since, when Latin was
the lingua franca of European education, German scholars used it too.
But Germany had never become a Roman province; unlike Spain, France,
Britain.
It's calculated that about 5.6% of German words are from Latin; whereas English has well over 60%.
I can't help but wonder how to account for that, since, when Latin was
the lingua franca of European education, German scholars used it too.
But Germany had never become a Roman province; unlike Spain, France,
Britain.
On 2024-09-14, Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote:
It's calculated that about 5.6% of German words are from Latin; whereas
English has well over 60%.
Doesn't sound implausible, but I'd still like to see a source for
that with an explanation of the metholodogy used to arrive at those
numbers.
I can't help but wonder how to account for that, since, when Latin was
the lingua franca of European education, German scholars used it too.
But Germany had never become a Roman province; unlike Spain, France,
Britain.
Germany west of the Rhine certainly was. Check out the map of
cities founded by the Romans: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%84lteste_St%C3%A4dte_Deutschlands
There's about a millennium between Britain being a Roman province
and Latinate vocabulary flooding the English languages. Sorry,
that idea doesn't hold water.
In article <vc4j6p$1jmhv$1@dont-email.me>,
ed@somewhere.in.the.uk says...
I can't help but wonder how to account for that, since, when Latin was
the lingua franca of European education, German scholars used it too.
But Germany had never become a Roman province; unlike Spain, France,
Britain.
Quite aside from Roman occupation, Latin was the
language of the Catholic Church and many legal documents.
Another feature in this question is the coining of new words.
Neologisms in English are usually pulled from Latin or Greek; but not in German.
Helicopter = Hubschrauber
Aeroplane = Flugzeug
Computer = Rechner
I've always loved the German word "Durchfall". It seems to illustrate
this question somehow. Could it be that we English like to veil things
in an aura of respectability? I.e. we're somewhat pretentious?
On 2024-09-15, Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote:
I've always loved the German word "Durchfall". It seems to illustrate
this question somehow. Could it be that we English like to veil things
in an aura of respectability? I.e. we're somewhat pretentious?
"Diarrhö" exists but is medical jargon. There you have touched on something. English medical terminology as used by laypeople is
full of Greco-Latinate vocabulary. The equivalent terms exist in
the extended German vocabulary, but they are medical jargon that
is used when doctors talk to each other, not to their patients.
Something like "femur" is a fairly ordinary English word, but "Femur"
came up as an obscure term in a German quiz show. German medical
jargon is more accessible to me than to the average German nonmedical
person simply because I know many terms from English.
More generally, German has the cultural concept of "Fremdword".
That is difficult to render in English. In a linguistic sense it
means "unassimilated loanword", but in everyday usage it shares
connotations with "big word". A Fremdwort is borrowed from a foreign language or coined from foreign morphemes, typically belongs to an
educated register or jargon, and can't be expected to be understood
by everybody. There are in fact whole dictionaries dedicated to
collecting such vocabulary (Fremdwörterbuch). This distinction
between native and foreign vocabulary doesn't exist in the English
language world.
Christian Weisgerber hat am 15.09.2024 um 20:28 geschrieben:
"Diarrhö" exists but is medical jargon. There you have touched on
something. English medical terminology as used by laypeople is
full of Greco-Latinate vocabulary. The equivalent terms exist in
the extended German vocabulary, but they are medical jargon that is
used when doctors talk to each other, not to their patients.
Something like "femur" is a fairly ordinary English word, but
"Femur" came up as an obscure term in a German quiz show. German
medical jargon is more accessible to me than to the average German
nonmedical person simply because I know many terms from English.
Same for me, although for a different reason. I already said to new
doctors (cardiologists, urologists etc.), in German, of course: "You
can talk medical jargon (Arztdeutsch) to me." Why? I have been living
in Germany for many years, but I am Italian, and we use quite
normally in my native language words like "diarrea" and "femore".
Actually, "Durchfall" and "Oberschenkelknochen" are much more vivid
words, but only if you know German really very well.
[...] Side comment: medical people often fail to notice that their jargon is jargon.
Doctor: Have we passed flatus today?
Patient: No, doc, but I've sure been farting a lot.
On Sat, 14 Sep 2024 22:58:09 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:
In article <vc4j6p$1jmhv$1@dont-email.me>,
ed@somewhere.in.the.uk says...
I can't help but wonder how to account for that, since, when Latin was
the lingua franca of European education, German scholars used it too.
But Germany had never become a Roman province; unlike Spain, France,
Britain.
Quite aside from Roman occupation, Latin was the
language of the Catholic Church and many legal documents.
I don't think either of those had much influence on English.
The English arived in Britain after the Romans departed, and they
conquered the Romano-British, and so imposed their language rather
than adopting the language of those they had conquered (though their
cousins the Franks did the opposite when they conquered Gaul).
But when the Norman-French conquered England in the 11th century they
brought their laqnguage as the overlords, and it exerted a strong
influence on the English, so many Latin words came in via French.
And the Renaissance was another infuence, bringing in a lot of Greek
and Latin words, which had higher social status.
So four-letter Anglo-Saxon words were rude, crude, common, vulgar and churlish, while much longer words derived from Greek and Latin were
refined, upper-class (at least until the middle-class started to
emulate the upper-class, when some of them became non-U).
So a refined and educated female had a uterus, while a churlish one
had a womb. A refined and educated male had a penis, while a peasant
yobbo had a cock.
One could make a long list of them:
shit -- faeces
fuck -- copulate
and so on.
It's one of the reasons why English has so many different words for
the same thing, with the Germanic ones having a lower class status
compared with the Greek/Latin/French ones.
[alt.language.latin deleted]
On Mon, 16 Sep 2024 6:19:10 +0000, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
..
IOne of the reasons I listen to MDR Sachsen’s
„Hausarztsprechstunde“
https://www.mdr.de/sachsenradio/programm/ratgeber/hausarztsprechstunde100.html
is for the non-jargon vocabulary. (It’s a radio programme aimed at the
general
public.) Like, of course I know that a pneumothorax is a Pneumothorax,
but
what’s equivalent to “collapsed lung” when speaking to non-medical
patients?
Do you practice in a German-speaking country? Or in an English-
speaking country where you see so many German-speaking
patients that you need to know such things?
On Mon, 16 Sep 2024 18:03:02 +0000, Silvano wrote:
jerryfriedman hat am 16.09.2024 um 16:35 geschrieben:
[alt.language.latin deleted]
On Mon, 16 Sep 2024 6:19:10 +0000, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
..
IOne of the reasons I listen to MDR Sachsen’s
„Hausarztsprechstunde“
https://www.mdr.de/sachsenradio/programm/ratgeber/hausarztsprechstunde100.html
is for the non-jargon vocabulary. (It’s a radio programme aimed at the >>>> general
public.) Like, of course I know that a pneumothorax is a Pneumothorax, >>>> but
what’s equivalent to “collapsed lung” when speaking to non-medical >>>> patients?
Do you practice in a German-speaking country? Or in an English-
speaking country where you see so many German-speaking
patients that you need to know such things?
I don't know what is Aidan's profession,
(That should be "I don't know what Aiden's profession is." A very
difficult point for many non-native speakers.)
As I recall, he's made it clear here that he's a physician.
but medical practitioners are
not the only people who may need to know the equivalent to a medical
expression in another language. There are also those strange beasts
called translators. I am one of them.
Anch'io sono tradutorre. (I had to look that up.)
I've published some
of my translations of Antonio Machado's poems, and I'm actually
supposed to get money for some of them.
My wages for this project
so far amount to about ten cents an hour, maybe less.
I don't know what is Aidan's profession, but medical practitioners
are not the only people who may need to know the equivalent to a
medical expression in another language. There are also those strange
beasts called translators. I am one of them.
[alt.language.latin deleted]
On Mon, 16 Sep 2024 6:19:10 +0000, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
..
IOne of the reasons I listen to MDR Sachsen’s
„Hausarztsprechstunde“
https://www.mdr.de/sachsenradio/programm/ratgeber/hausarztsprechstunde100.html
is for the non-jargon vocabulary. (It’s a radio programme aimed at the
general
public.) Like, of course I know that a pneumothorax is a Pneumothorax,
but
what’s equivalent to “collapsed lung” when speaking to non-medical
patients?
Do you practice in a German-speaking country? Or in an English-
speaking country where you see so many German-speaking
patients that you need to know such things?
Steve Hayes wrote:
On Sat, 14 Sep 2024 22:58:09 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:
In article <vc4j6p$1jmhv$1@dont-email.me>,
ed@somewhere.in.the.uk says...
I can't help but wonder how to account for that, since, when Latin was >>>> the lingua franca of European education, German scholars used it too.
But Germany had never become a Roman province; unlike Spain, France,
Britain.
Quite aside from Roman occupation, Latin was the
language of the Catholic Church and many legal documents.
I don't think either of those had much influence on English.
The English arived in Britain after the Romans departed, and they
conquered the Romano-British, and so imposed their language rather
than adopting the language of those they had conquered (though their
cousins the Franks did the opposite when they conquered Gaul).
But when the Norman-French conquered England in the 11th century they
brought their laqnguage as the overlords, and it exerted a strong
influence on the English, so many Latin words came in via French.
And the Renaissance was another infuence, bringing in a lot of Greek
and Latin words, which had higher social status.
So four-letter Anglo-Saxon words were rude, crude, common, vulgar and
churlish, while much longer words derived from Greek and Latin were
refined, upper-class (at least until the middle-class started to
emulate the upper-class, when some of them became non-U).
So a refined and educated female had a uterus, while a churlish one
had a womb. A refined and educated male had a penis, while a peasant
yobbo had a cock.
One could make a long list of them:
shit -- faeces
fuck -- copulate
and so on.
It's one of the reasons why English has so many different words for
the same thing, with the Germanic ones having a lower class status
compared with the Greek/Latin/French ones.
I think you've hit the answer here with the Normandy French invasion. It
was complete and utterly changed Britain And it brought in a very strong >class divide. The feudal serfs tended cows, pigs, sheep; the Norman
masters ate beef, pork, mutton.
To step up the social ladder you had to use French language.
On Mon, 16 Sep 2024 09:10:15 +0100, Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk>
wrote:
Steve Hayes wrote:
On Sat, 14 Sep 2024 22:58:09 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:
In article <vc4j6p$1jmhv$1@dont-email.me>,
ed@somewhere.in.the.uk says...
I can't help but wonder how to account for that, since, when Latin was >>>>> the lingua franca of European education, German scholars used it too. >>>>> But Germany had never become a Roman province; unlike Spain, France, >>>>> Britain.
Quite aside from Roman occupation, Latin was the
language of the Catholic Church and many legal documents.
I don't think either of those had much influence on English.
The English arived in Britain after the Romans departed, and they
conquered the Romano-British, and so imposed their language rather
than adopting the language of those they had conquered (though their
cousins the Franks did the opposite when they conquered Gaul).
But when the Norman-French conquered England in the 11th century they
brought their laqnguage as the overlords, and it exerted a strong
influence on the English, so many Latin words came in via French.
And the Renaissance was another infuence, bringing in a lot of Greek
and Latin words, which had higher social status.
So four-letter Anglo-Saxon words were rude, crude, common, vulgar and
churlish, while much longer words derived from Greek and Latin were
refined, upper-class (at least until the middle-class started to
emulate the upper-class, when some of them became non-U).
So a refined and educated female had a uterus, while a churlish one
had a womb. A refined and educated male had a penis, while a peasant
yobbo had a cock.
One could make a long list of them:
shit -- faeces
fuck -- copulate
and so on.
It's one of the reasons why English has so many different words for
the same thing, with the Germanic ones having a lower class status
compared with the Greek/Latin/French ones.
I think you've hit the answer here with the Normandy French invasion. It
was complete and utterly changed Britain And it brought in a very strong
class divide. The feudal serfs tended cows, pigs, sheep; the Norman
masters ate beef, pork, mutton.
To step up the social ladder you had to use French language.
Yes, or to Frenchify your English.
The Latinisation of English happened in two stages, both driven by the
upper class, who were largely of Norman-French origin.
The first stage was the invasion itself, and the subsequent control of England through ousting the local Anglo-Saxon nobility and replacing
them with Norman-French ones, who built castles to control the
populacve and put down resistance movements.
The second phase was the Renaissance, which aroused, in the upper
class, an admiration for Latin and Greek classical antiquity, and so
pupils at public schools were taught Latin and Greek in their presumed classical forms (rather than the altered form perpetuated by medieval bureaucracy) and so classical Latin and Greek regarded as high-status languages and many consciously adopted neologisms were based on them, including such words as television, automobile and the like.
Purists and nationalists of Germanic languages tried to plug more native-sounding words -- in Afrikaans, for example, television was "beeldradio", but eventually "televisie" won out.
In English there was a battle in publishing, which hasn't yet been
decided, between:
foreword preface
handbook manual
and so on.
On 17/09/24 04:03, Silvano wrote:
I don't know what is Aidan's profession, but medical practitioners
are not the only people who may need to know the equivalent to a
medical expression in another language. There are also those strange
beasts called translators. I am one of them.
My ex-wife's work as a medical interpreter produced a wealth of stories showing that lots of people understand very little about language.
Here's an example that actually happened. I've probably changed the
actual words, but I've retained the essence of what happened.
A hospital nurse phoned the interpreter service.
"Could you send an interpreter, please? We have a patient who can't understand English."
"OK. What language?"
"Oh. I thought the interpreters did all languages."
"No, we have different people for different languages."
"Well, I think he speaks African."
That reminds me of an incident in an earlier job of hers, when she
worked in a psychiatric hospital. A small town north of Newcastle had
had no doctor for a long time, but Australia has a policy of getting immigrant doctors out to rural areas, so they finally got someone. That doctor sent one of his patients down to the psych hospital for
assessment. The clinical notes said that he was obsessed with attacking birds.
When interviewed, one of the first things he said was
"Stone the crows, I don't know why they sent me here."
Peter Moylan hat am 17.09.2024 um 01:32 geschrieben:
That reminds me of an incident in an earlier job of hers, when she
worked in a psychiatric hospital. A small town north of Newcastle
had had no doctor for a long time, but Australia has a policy of
getting immigrant doctors out to rural areas, so they finally got
someone. That doctor sent one of his patients down to the psych
hospital for assessment. The clinical notes said that he was
obsessed with attacking birds.
When interviewed, one of the first things he said was "Stone the
crows, I don't know why they sent me here."
I assume that "stone the crows" is a common idiom in that part of
Australia. 1) What does it mean? 2) Do native speakers of other
varieties of English know and use that idiom?
By the way, congratulations to Australia. Here in Germany we are very
slowly starting to understand that interpreters should be provided to patients and hospital cleaners or the patient's minor children are
definitely not the best solution, especially when talking e.g. about
sexual diseases or a life-threatening cancer.
Peter Moylan hat am 17.09.2024 um 01:32 geschrieben:
That reminds me of an incident in an earlier job of hers, when she
worked in a psychiatric hospital. A small town north of Newcastle had
had no doctor for a long time, but Australia has a policy of getting
immigrant doctors out to rural areas, so they finally got someone. That
doctor sent one of his patients down to the psych hospital for
assessment. The clinical notes said that he was obsessed with attacking
birds.
When interviewed, one of the first things he said was
"Stone the crows, I don't know why they sent me here."
I assume that "stone the crows" is a common idiom in that part of Australia. >1) What does it mean?
2) Do native speakers of other varieties of English know and use that idiom?
By the way, congratulations to Australia. Here in Germany we are very
slowly starting to understand that interpreters should be provided to >patients and hospital cleaners or the patient's minor children are
definitely not the best solution, especially when talking e.g. about
sexual diseases or a life-threatening cancer.
Steve Hayes hat am 17.09.2024 um 07:19 geschrieben:took me to a page that had NO information about terms and conditions.
ofThe first stage was the invasion itself, and the subsequent control
England through ousting the local Anglo-Saxon nobility and replacing
them with Norman-French ones, who built castles to control the
populacve and put down resistance movements.
The second phase was the Renaissance, which aroused, in the upper
class, an admiration for Latin and Greek classical antiquity, and so
pupils at public schools were taught Latin and Greek in their presumed
classical forms (rather than the altered form perpetuated by medieval
bureaucracy) and so classical Latin and Greek regarded as high-status
languages and many consciously adopted neologisms were based on them,
including such words as television, automobile and the like.
Purists and nationalists of Germanic languages tried to plug more
native-sounding words -- in Afrikaans, for example, television was
"beeldradio", but eventually "televisie" won out.
In English there was a battle in publishing, which hasn't yet been
decided, between:
foreword preface
handbook manual
and so on.
Please note, however, that Chaucer wrote before the Renaissance began,
but his Middle English had already lost the Old English declination
system and most of the OE conjugation.
On 17/09/24 16:44, Silvano wrote:
Peter Moylan hat am 17.09.2024 um 01:32 geschrieben:
That reminds me of an incident in an earlier job of hers, when she
worked in a psychiatric hospital. A small town north of Newcastle
had had no doctor for a long time, but Australia has a policy of
getting immigrant doctors out to rural areas, so they finally got
someone. That doctor sent one of his patients down to the psych
hospital for assessment. The clinical notes said that he was
obsessed with attacking birds.
When interviewed, one of the first things he said was "Stone the
crows, I don't know why they sent me here."
I assume that "stone the crows" is a common idiom in that part of
Australia. 1) What does it mean? 2) Do native speakers of other
varieties of English know and use that idiom?
Good questions. It's an Australian expression, and more specifically
from the language of rural areas rather than the cities. I believe it's understood in England, although the English clearly view it as an Australianism. I have no idea whether it is also known in the rest of GB&Ireland. It is probably not understood in North America, except among those exposed to a lot of Australian literature.
Meaning: it's a general expression of surprise or incredulity. An
approximate equivalent is "Bloody Hell".
Etymology: nobody is sure. It could derive from times when farmers hired people to throw stones at crows who were damaging the crops, but
personally I can't see how that would evolve into an expression of
surprise. I suspect that it's just a phrase that someone made up, and
adopted by others who found it colourful.
On Mon, 16 Sep 2024 6:19:10 +0000, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
One of the reasons I listen to MDR Sachsen’s „Hausarztsprechstunde“ https://www.mdr.de/sachsenradio/programm/ratgeber/hausarztsprechstunde100.html
is for the non-jargon vocabulary. (It’s a radio programme aimed at the general public.) Like, of course I know that a pneumothorax is a Pneumothorax, but what’s equivalent to “collapsed lung” when speaking to
non-medical patients?
Do you practice in a German-speaking country? Or in an English-
speaking country where you see so many German-speaking
patients that you need to know such things?
On 17/09/24 16:44, Silvano wrote:
Peter Moylan hat am 17.09.2024 um 01:32 geschrieben:
That reminds me of an incident in an earlier job of hers, when she
worked in a psychiatric hospital. A small town north of Newcastle
had had no doctor for a long time, but Australia has a policy of
getting immigrant doctors out to rural areas, so they finally got
someone. That doctor sent one of his patients down to the psych
hospital for assessment. The clinical notes said that he was
obsessed with attacking birds.
When interviewed, one of the first things he said was "Stone the
crows, I don't know why they sent me here."
I assume that "stone the crows" is a common idiom in that part of
Australia. 1) What does it mean? 2) Do native speakers of other
varieties of English know and use that idiom?
Good questions. It's an Australian expression, and more specifically
from the language of rural areas rather than the cities. I believe it's understood in England, although the English clearly view it as an Australianism. I have no idea whether it is also known in the rest of GB&Ireland. It is probably not understood in North America, except among those exposed to a lot of Australian literature.
Meaning: it's a general expression of surprise or incredulity. An
approximate equivalent is "Bloody Hell".
Etymology: nobody is sure. It could derive from times when farmers hired people to throw stones at crows who were damaging the crops, but
personally I can't see how that would evolve into an expression of
surprise. I suspect that it's just a phrase that someone made up, and
adopted by others who found it colourful.
On Sat, 14 Sep 2024 22:58:09 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:
In article <vc4j6p$1jmhv$1@dont-email.me>,
ed@somewhere.in.the.uk says...
I can't help but wonder how to account for that, since, when Latin was
the lingua franca of European education, German scholars used it too.
But Germany had never become a Roman province; unlike Spain, France,
Britain.
Quite aside from Roman occupation, Latin was the
language of the Catholic Church and many legal documents.
I don't think either of those had much influence on English.
On Tue, 17 Sep 2024 08:27:41 +0200, Silvano
<Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
Steve Hayes hat am 17.09.2024 um 07:19 geschrieben:took me to a page that had NO information about terms and conditions.
ofThe first stage was the invasion itself, and the subsequent control
England through ousting the local Anglo-Saxon nobility and replacing
them with Norman-French ones, who built castles to control the
populacve and put down resistance movements.
The second phase was the Renaissance, which aroused, in the upper
class, an admiration for Latin and Greek classical antiquity, and so
pupils at public schools were taught Latin and Greek in their presumed
classical forms (rather than the altered form perpetuated by medieval
bureaucracy) and so classical Latin and Greek regarded as high-status
languages and many consciously adopted neologisms were based on them,
including such words as television, automobile and the like.
Purists and nationalists of Germanic languages tried to plug more
native-sounding words -- in Afrikaans, for example, television was
"beeldradio", but eventually "televisie" won out.
In English there was a battle in publishing, which hasn't yet been
decided, between:
foreword preface
handbook manual
and so on.
Please note, however, that Chaucer wrote before the Renaissance began,
but his Middle English had already lost the Old English declination
system and most of the OE conjugation.
Aye, but that had little to do with the incorporating words of Latin
origin, either in addition to or are instead of the older Germanic
words.
Peter Moylan hat am 17.09.2024 um 01:32 geschrieben:
On 17/09/24 04:03, Silvano wrote:
I don't know what is Aidan's profession, but medical practitioners
are not the only people who may need to know the equivalent to a
medical expression in another language. There are also those strange
beasts called translators. I am one of them.
My ex-wife's work as a medical interpreter produced a wealth of stories showing that lots of people understand very little about language.
Here's an example that actually happened. I've probably changed the
actual words, but I've retained the essence of what happened.
A hospital nurse phoned the interpreter service.
"Could you send an interpreter, please? We have a patient who can't understand English."
"OK. What language?"
"Oh. I thought the interpreters did all languages."
"No, we have different people for different languages."
"Well, I think he speaks African."
That reminds me of an incident in an earlier job of hers, when she
worked in a psychiatric hospital. A small town north of Newcastle had
had no doctor for a long time, but Australia has a policy of getting immigrant doctors out to rural areas, so they finally got someone. That doctor sent one of his patients down to the psych hospital for
assessment. The clinical notes said that he was obsessed with attacking birds.
When interviewed, one of the first things he said was
"Stone the crows, I don't know why they sent me here."
I assume that "stone the crows" is a common idiom in that part of Australia. 1) What does it mean?
2) Do native speakers of other varieties of English know and use that idiom?
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