The Romance languages got their Latin roots from uneducated soldiers and other people who spoke vulgar Latin.
The Romance languages got their Latin roots from uneducated soldiers and
other people who spoke vulgar Latin.
my sense is that... Vulgar Latin is almost like a diff. language,
whereas Demotic French is just informal French
_______________
Demotic French refers to the informal, everyday language used by
ordinary French speakers. It includes colloquial expressions, slang, and vernacular forms of speech that differ from standard or formal
French[1][5].
This type of French is characterized by:
1. Simplicity: It employs simpler syntax and vocabulary compared to
formal French[2].
2. Dialect influence: It may incorporate regional expressions or pronunciations[2].
3. Fluidity: Demotic French evolves more rapidly than formal language, reflecting current usage[2].
For example, a speaker might use demotic French when conversing with
friends or in casual settings, as opposed to the more formal language
used in official documents or academic contexts[5].
This form of French captures the authentic, everyday speech patterns of native speakers and can vary based on factors such as region, social
group, and age.
Citations:
[1] https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/demotic
[2] https://worldschoolbooks.com/description-of-demotic/
[3] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/demotic
[4]
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt/writing/demotic.html
[5] https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/demotic
_____________________________
In the poem, Eliot refers to Mr. Eugenides, the Smyrna
merchant, who "Asked me in demotic French / To luncheon at the Cannon
Street Hotel". This reference to demotic French suggests that Mr.
Eugenides spoke in a colloquial or informal version of French, rather
than a more formal or literary style.
_________________ iirc... He was gay, and hitting on the Speaker.
Based on the search results, Mr. Eugenides is indeed portrayed
as making a homosexual advance towards the speaker. The search results confirm this interpretation with several key details:
- Mr. Eugenides is a merchant from Smyrna (modern-day Turkey) trading in dried fruit
- He propositions the speaker for a homosexual tryst at the Cannon
Street Hotel
- The encounter is described with subtle homophobic undertones,
portraying Eugenides as "unshaven" and speaking in a "lower class French dialect"
The search results specifically note that Eugenides "offers the speaker
his exports" and suggests a weekend at "a notorious Brighton hotel",
which is implied to be a known location for homosexual encounters.
Interestingly, his name "Eugenides" means "well-born" in Greek, which Eliot uses ironically given the character's portrayal. The
encounter is part of Eliot's broader commentary on the "emotional
wasteland" and meaningless sexual interactions in modern society.
The scene is part of "The Fire Sermon" section of The Waste Land, which explores themes of loveless and improper sexual relationships within the broader context of a spiritually and emotionally barren modern world.
Citations:
[1] https://www.sparknotes.com/poetry/eliot/section4/
[2] https://athensinapoem.com/2022/10/25/poetic-reality-no18-the-waste-lands-centenary-part-1-roots-bodies-and-boundaries-a-waste-land-for-a-new-century/
[3] http://eliotwasteland.blogspot.com/2018/09/mr-eugenides.html
[4] http://mrhoyesibwebsite.com/Poetry%20Texts/Wasteland/Section%20Notes/The%20Fire%20Sermon.htm
[5] https://www.sparknotes.com/poetry/the-waste-land/poetic-devices/
[6] https://yalereview.org/article/vendler-eliot-waste-land
[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Waste_Land
[8] https://www.joeledmundanderson.com/the-wasteland-by-t-s-eliot-a-reading-and-explanation/
________________
i think... Eliot had homosexual tendencies,
and this was based on a real encounter that he had.
[Demotic French] likely referred to some actual
expression that was used (a codeword) ... and that's why
it made such a big impression on me.
The word "demotic" was supplied by Ezra Pound in his late
edit of The Waste Land.
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 16:52:33 +0000, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
On 2024-12-16, LionelEdwards <dougstaples@gmx.com> wrote:
The word "demotic" was supplied by Ezra Pound in his late
edit of The Waste Land.
thanks... (my 2 AI's don't think so)
I wonder if Scholars are still discovering new things about
[The Waste Land] -- the way Scholars are finding new sources, etc.
for Joyce's works.
perh. Demotic (in the poem) suggests Demote
because the speaker was slumming or exploring Gay encounters.
Cruising, Cottaging (UK)
The term that immediately comes to mind is "Demotic Egyptian", i.e.,
the stage of the Egyptian language written in the demotic script
as opposed to the earlier hieroglypic and hieratic scripts. Etymonline
confirms that this was the original (1822) use of "demotic" in
English; the meaning was later extended.
Regarding the basilectal register of a language, the pattern of
simplifications might not be what a second-language learner might
wish for. So yesterday I was watching the final episode of the
Brasilian Netflix show _Dom_, which showcases Portuguese of the
colloquial/slang kind from Rio de Janeiro. There you can find gems
such as this one:
Depois que eu fizer, tu vai deixar eu ir embora.
"Once I do this, you'll let me go away."
So the main clause has the analytic "ir" + infinitive construction
instead of the synthetic future tense, and it uses a second person
subject pronoun with a third person verb. Never mind the use of
"eu" in what I'd consider an object role. But at the same time,
the temporal clause employs the most exotic beast from the zoo of
Romance tense/aspect/mood categories, the future subjunctive!
On 2024-12-16, LionelEdwards <dougstaples@gmx.com> wrote:
The word "demotic" was supplied by Ezra Pound in his late
edit of The Waste Land.
The term that immediately comes to mind is "Demotic Egyptian", i.e.,
the stage of the Egyptian language written in the demotic script
as opposed to the earlier hieroglypic and hieratic scripts. Etymonline confirms that this was the original (1822) use of "demotic" in
English; the meaning was later extended.
Regarding the basilectal register of a language, the pattern of simplifications might not be what a second-language learner might
wish for. So yesterday I was watching the final episode of the
Brasilian Netflix show _Dom_, which showcases Portuguese of the colloquial/slang kind from Rio de Janeiro. There you can find gems
such as this one:
Depois que eu fizer, tu vai deixar eu ir embora.
"Once I do this, you'll let me go away."
So the main clause has the analytic "ir" + infinitive construction
instead of the synthetic future tense, and it uses a second person
subject pronoun with a third person verb. Never mind the use of
"eu" in what I'd consider an object role. But at the same time,
the temporal clause employs the most exotic beast from the zoo of
Romance tense/aspect/mood categories, the future subjunctive!
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 19:58:14 +0000, HenHanna wrote:
The Romance languages got their Latin roots from uneducated soldiers and >>> other people who spoke vulgar Latin.
my sense is that... Vulgar Latin is almost like a diff. language,
whereas Demotic French is just informal French
_______________
Demotic French refers to the informal, everyday language used by
ordinary French speakers. It includes colloquial expressions, slang, and
vernacular forms of speech that differ from standard or formal
French[1][5].
This type of French is characterized by:
1. Simplicity: It employs simpler syntax and vocabulary compared to
formal French[2].
2. Dialect influence: It may incorporate regional expressions or
pronunciations[2].
3. Fluidity: Demotic French evolves more rapidly than formal language,
reflecting current usage[2].
For example, a speaker might use demotic French when conversing with
friends or in casual settings, as opposed to the more formal language
used in official documents or academic contexts[5].
This form of French captures the authentic, everyday speech patterns of
native speakers and can vary based on factors such as region, social
group, and age.
Citations:
[1] https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/demotic
[2] https://worldschoolbooks.com/description-of-demotic/
[3] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/demotic
[4]
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt/writing/demotic.html
[5] https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/demotic
_____________________________
In the poem, Eliot refers to Mr. Eugenides, the Smyrna
merchant, who "Asked me in demotic French / To luncheon at the Cannon
Street Hotel". This reference to demotic French suggests that Mr.
Eugenides spoke in a colloquial or informal version of French, rather
than a more formal or literary style.
_________________ iirc... He was gay, and hitting on the Speaker.
Based on the search results, Mr. Eugenides is indeed portrayed
as making a homosexual advance towards the speaker. The search results
confirm this interpretation with several key details:
- Mr. Eugenides is a merchant from Smyrna (modern-day Turkey) trading in
dried fruit
- He propositions the speaker for a homosexual tryst at the Cannon
Street Hotel
- The encounter is described with subtle homophobic undertones,
portraying Eugenides as "unshaven" and speaking in a "lower class French
dialect"
The search results specifically note that Eugenides "offers the speaker
his exports" and suggests a weekend at "a notorious Brighton hotel",
which is implied to be a known location for homosexual encounters.
Interestingly, his name "Eugenides" means "well-born" in Greek,
which Eliot uses ironically given the character's portrayal. The
encounter is part of Eliot's broader commentary on the "emotional
wasteland" and meaningless sexual interactions in modern society.
The scene is part of "The Fire Sermon" section of The Waste Land, which
explores themes of loveless and improper sexual relationships within the
broader context of a spiritually and emotionally barren modern world.
Citations:
[1] https://www.sparknotes.com/poetry/eliot/section4/
[2]
https://athensinapoem.com/2022/10/25/poetic-reality-no18-the-waste-lands-centenary-part-1-roots-bodies-and-boundaries-a-waste-land-for-a-new-century/
[3] http://eliotwasteland.blogspot.com/2018/09/mr-eugenides.html
[4]
http://mrhoyesibwebsite.com/Poetry%20Texts/Wasteland/Section%20Notes/The%20Fire%20Sermon.htm
[5] https://www.sparknotes.com/poetry/the-waste-land/poetic-devices/
[6] https://yalereview.org/article/vendler-eliot-waste-land
[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Waste_Land
[8]
https://www.joeledmundanderson.com/the-wasteland-by-t-s-eliot-a-reading-and-explanation/
________________
i think... Eliot had homosexual tendencies,
and this was based on a real encounter that he had.
[Demotic French] likely referred to some actual
expression that was used (a codeword) ... and that's why
it made such a big impression on me.
The word "demotic" was supplied by Ezra Pound in his late
edit of The Waste Land.
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