Grimble Crumble <grimblecrumble870@gmail.com> wrote or quoted:

In EmE, there were 2 distinct pronouns that translate to "you" in Modern >English: thou, used in the singular; and ye, used in the plural/formal

Alright, here's the rundown. Back in the day, English had
two different words for "you": "thou" for one person you knew
pretty well, and "ye" for a group or for someone you wanted to
show some respect. Other languages do this too, like Spanish or
French. So, why did "thou" just drop off the map?

Basically, around the 15th to 17th centuries, people started
getting more hung up on being polite and showing respect. Folks
started using "you" for everyone, even just one person, because
it sounded less in-your-face. "Thou" started to feel kind of
rude or old-school, unless you were talking to family or to God.

There was also this thing where people wanted to sound more like
the upper crust, who were already using "you" instead of "thou."
So, everyone else just followed along, and "thou" got left
behind, mostly in rural spots or with groups like the Quakers.

English has a habit of making things easier, grammar-wise,
so just having "you" for everything caught on. Even though
the King James Bible still used "thou" for God, regular
people were already moving on.

By the 1700s, "thou" was pretty much toast in standard English,
except in some dialects and in church or poetry.

But people still wanted a way to talk to more than one
person at once, so you get stuff like "y'all" in the South,
"you guys" all over the place, "youse" in New York and
Australia, and "yinz" in Pittsburgh. These are just ways
to fill in the gap that "thou" left behind.

Other languages kept the whole formal/informal thing because
it got baked into their grammar and culture. English just
went the other way and stuck with one word for both.

So, "thou" faded out because people wanted to be polite and
sound like the upper class, and because English likes to
keep things simple. But since folks still want to tell the
difference between talking to one person or a bunch, new
words keep popping up to do the job.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote or quoted:

Other languages kept the whole formal/informal thing

So, I've noticed that calling someone "Sir" in English kind of
lines up with how we use the more formal "Sie" in German, where
there's a bit of distance. On the other hand, if you use "dude",
it feels a lot more familiar, like the German "Du".

But it also depends on where you are. Like, if a woman in
the audience asks a question during a talk, a speaker in
the South might call her "Ma'am!" to bring her into the
conversation. If you tried that in England, though, you
might get, "Please don't call me 'Ma'am'!"

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/20/2025 2:04 PM, Grimble Crumble wrote:

In EmE, there were 2 distinct pronouns that translate to "you" in Modern English: thou, used in the singular; and ye, used in the plural/formal singular. This is a common distinction in other languages (Spanish, German, French, etc.), so how come "thou" was lost?

It was useful to be able to distinguish between the 2nd person singular and plural. Useful enough that "y'all" has become a recent replacement for "ye" in some informal dialects.

I grew up in an area (central Indiana) where "y'all" was used but wasn't
a dominate choice. It was not restricted in any way by the plurality of
the "you" being addressed. I would make the same observation about my
forays further South all the way down to the Gulf Stream.
--
Jeff Barnett

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2025-05-20, Grimble Crumble <grimblecrumble870@gmail.com> wrote:

In EmE, there were 2 distinct pronouns that translate to "you" in Modern English: thou, used in the singular; and ye, used in the plural/formal singular. This is a common distinction in other languages (Spanish, German, French, etc.), so how come "thou" was lost?

Inflation. A common driver of language change, too. The plural
was used as a form of respect when addressing superiors, cf. French
"vous". In fact, the usage may have been copied from French.
Eventually this spread throughout society until everybody was given
the courtesy of this address, and "thou" and its associated verb
forms withered away.

This sort of development is in no way unique to English.

Some parts of the Spanish speaking world, most prominently Argentina,
have so-called voseo where the informal second person singular is
"vos" and associated verb forms, originally the second person plural
used deferentially, but then suffering inflation and becoming
informal, with "usted" taking over the formal role.

The Portuguese equivalent of Spanish "usted" is "você"; both take
third person verb forms and were contracted from a phrase that
originally meant "your grace". In Brazilian Portuguese, at least
the media variety, this "você" has replaced original "tu" as the
form of address. If you now want to show respect, you need
"o senhor" etc. Inflation again. As a side effect, the original
second person verb forms have disappeared from colloquial Brazilian
Portuguese, much like the "thou -st/-t" forms have disappeared from
English.

Latin American Spanish in general and European Portuguese show a
partial form of this change in the plural, where originally formal
"ustedes" and "vocês" have replaced informal "vosotros" and "vós"
and their associated verb forms, respectively.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Grimble Crumble <grimblecrumble870@gmail.com> wrote or quoted:

how come "thou" was lost?

According to "You und thou: Studien zur Anrede im Englischen"
(1963) - Thomas Finkenstaedt, the reason "thou" dropped out
of English had a lot to do with what was going on in the 1600s:

- There was a big argument with the Quakers about using "thou."
A lot of folks quit saying it so people would not think they
were Quakers.

- John Locke, the philosopher, started talking about tolerance
and equality. Because of that, people started thinking everyone
should get the same respect, and using "thou" for just one
person started to feel kind of patronizing.

- Marriage started to look different, and Puritan ideas were
not as big a deal anymore. So, people stopped using "thou"
with their spouses.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote or quoted:

- Marriage started to look different, and Puritan ideas were
not as big a deal anymore. So, people stopped using "thou"
with their spouses.

What were these "puritan ideas"? Well, back in the 16th and
17th centuries, the idea that women were lower than men was
just part of the puritan mindset. So, women would use the
formal plural form when talking to their husbands, while men
would just use the regular singular form with their wives.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Grimble Crumble <grimblecrumble870@gmail.com> wrote or quoted:

so how come "thou" was lost?

According to Rodríguez (2022) this probably happened because
folks leaned toward being extra polite, wanting to play it
safe instead of accidentally being rude by picking the wrong
word (Strang, 1970, p. 139). As this careful attitude caught
on, there were fewer and fewer times when "thou" made sense,
so by the 1700s, it was really only hanging on in some local
dialects or in old texts and religious stuff.

"A History of English." (1970) - B. M. Strang

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 21/05/2025 10:01 p.m., Stefan Ram wrote:

Grimble Crumble <grimblecrumble870@gmail.com> wrote or quoted:

how come "thou" was lost?

According to "You und thou: Studien zur Anrede im Englischen"
(1963) - Thomas Finkenstaedt, the reason "thou" dropped out
of English had a lot to do with what was going on in the 1600s:

- There was a big argument with the Quakers about using "thou."
A lot of folks quit saying it so people would not think they
were Quakers.

The Quakers used "thou" to everyone because they rejected the idea that
some people deserved more respect than others. The story goes that
George Fox was thrown out of his home because he insisted on addressing
his father with "thou".

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thu, 22 May 2025 09:22:54 +1200, Ross Clark wrote:

On 21/05/2025 10:01 p.m., Stefan Ram wrote:

Grimble Crumble <grimblecrumble870@gmail.com> wrote or quoted:

how come "thou" was lost?

According to "You und thou: Studien zur Anrede im Englischen" (1963)
- Thomas Finkenstaedt, the reason "thou" dropped out of English had
a lot to do with what was going on in the 1600s:

- There was a big argument with the Quakers about using "thou."
A lot of folks quit saying it so people would not think they were
Quakers.

The Quakers used "thou" to everyone because they rejected the idea that
some people deserved more respect than others. The story goes that
George Fox was thrown out of his home because he insisted on addressing
his father with "thou".

My father, born in Lancashire in 1910, would jokingly say:

Don't thee thee me. Thee thee theeself and see how thy likes it.

So, just a suggestion that in the Lancashire dialect of the early 1900s
the second person singular was becoming unacceptable.

Best regards,
Jack Fearnley

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2025-05-20 21:14:57 +0000, Grimble Crumble said:

Stefan Ram <ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote or quoted:

Other languages kept the whole formal/informal thing

So, I've noticed that calling someone "Sir" in English kind of
lines up with how we use the more formal "Sie" in German, where
there's a bit of distance. On the other hand, if you use "dude",
it feels a lot more familiar, like the German "Du".

But it also depends on where you are. Like, if a woman in
the audience asks a question during a talk, a speaker in
the South might call her "Ma'am!" to bring her into the
conversation. If you tried that in England, though, you
might get, "Please don't call me 'Ma'am'!"

Well thanks for the explanation

Be careful, though, with what Stefan says: he invents a lot of stuff.
The last sentence strikes me as nonsensical speculation. I'd be
exceedingly surprised if he's ever heard anyone in England say "Please
don't call me 'Ma'am'". I certainly haven't, in 82 years.

--
Athel cb

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Op 21/05/2025 om 1:11 schreef Christian Weisgerber:

On 2025-05-20, Grimble Crumble <grimblecrumble870@gmail.com> wrote:

In EmE, there were 2 distinct pronouns that translate to "you" in Modern
English: thou, used in the singular; and ye, used in the plural/formal
singular. This is a common distinction in other languages (Spanish, German, >> French, etc.), so how come "thou" was lost?

Inflation. A common driver of language change, too. The plural
was used as a form of respect when addressing superiors, cf. French
"vous". In fact, the usage may have been copied from French.
[...]

I'm pretty sure it has, in an epoch when French lifestyle and language
were imitated everywhere.The same happened in Dutch: "du" was replaced
by plural "ghi". In Flanders this became "gij", which served all uses of
Fr. "tu" and "vous", including Biblical "thou". In Holland "gij" got
stuck to Biblical use, and for the rest evolved to "jij" with its own conjugation, for singular "tu". Now there was a need for a plural, which
became "jullie" (< jij lieden, you folks). And for a polite form, which
became "u" (< Uwe < Uwé < U.E.= Uw Edelheid, your nobility).
Since 'standardisation' of the language was teached in Flanders, we're
now in a real messing up stage of use, of gij-u(w) with jij-je forms, of
gij-u with jullie-je (and zich, 3d p.!) forms, etc.

--
guido wugi

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)