• A Relativist Beginning a Reasonable Defense of Relativity

    From LaurenceClarkCrossen@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 30 04:51:10 2024
    A Relativist Beginning a Reasonable Defense of Relativity

    We have to admit:

    1. Parallel lines have not been proven to meet, so the universe and
    space are not curved.
    2. That space is not curved because it is a vacuum, not a substance.
    3. That curved space cannot provide a cause of gravity.
    4. We must decide whether to keep both the ether and the LT or discard
    both.
    5. Einstein never predicted a doubling of the deflection theoretically
    because he did not derive it from math or physics.
    6. That a doubling would violate the findings of Galileo and Eotvos.
    7. That the Newtonian result in Pound-Snider contradicts the doubling of deflection.
    8. There is no equivalence in the equivalence principle, so it is pure nonsense.
    9. That relative motion per se cannot cause all rates of change to
    change in unison.
    10. You cannot rescue an ad hoc hypothesis with an ad hoc rescue.

    Now we are prepared to begin our defense of relativity!

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  • From Maciej Wozniak@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 30 10:02:06 2024
    W dniu 30.10.2024 o 09:32, LaurenceClarkCrossen pisze:
    11. The relative speed of the observer must be added and subtracted from
    the speed of light just as with the speed of sound if we are even to
    qualify as rational at all.


    No serious model cares about "relative speed of
    observer" and no serious model ever will.

    For most of our real activities we use
    geocentric model. Heliocentric and ECi are
    also important. "Relative speed of observer"
    is just another gedanken absurd.

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  • From LaurenceClarkCrossen@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 30 08:32:28 2024
    11. The relative speed of the observer must be added and subtracted from
    the speed of light just as with the speed of sound if we are even to
    qualify as rational at all.

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  • From Richard Hachel@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 30 12:03:59 2024
    Le 30/10/2024 à 05:51, clzb93ynxj@att.net (LaurenceClarkCrossen) a écrit
    :
    A Relativist Beginning a Reasonable Defense of Relativity

    We have to admit:

    1. Parallel lines have not been proven to meet, so the universe and
    space are not curved.
    2. That space is not curved because it is a vacuum, not a substance.
    3. That curved space cannot provide a cause of gravity.
    4. We must decide whether to keep both the ether and the LT or discard
    both.
    5. Einstein never predicted a doubling of the deflection theoretically because he did not derive it from math or physics.
    6. That a doubling would violate the findings of Galileo and Eotvos.
    7. That the Newtonian result in Pound-Snider contradicts the doubling of deflection.
    8. There is no equivalence in the equivalence principle, so it is pure nonsense.
    9. That relative motion per se cannot cause all rates of change to
    change in unison.
    10. You cannot rescue an ad hoc hypothesis with an ad hoc rescue.

    Now we are prepared to begin our defense of relativity!

    Good text.

    R.H.

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  • From Richard Hachel@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 30 12:21:25 2024
    Le 30/10/2024 à 09:32, clzb93ynxj@att.net (LaurenceClarkCrossen) a écrit
    :
    11. The relative speed of the observer must be added and subtracted from
    the speed of light just as with the speed of sound if we are even to
    qualify as rational at all.

    This would be true if the space measured in a frame of reference were isochronous, that is to say if the notion of "present time", of
    "simultaneity" were absolute there.

    I repeat, it WOULD BE true.

    But the universe is not made like that, and this is the very basis of the theory of relativity according to Dr. Hachel (the best relativistic
    theorist of the universe by default of the others): space is an
    anisochronous entity, the notion of absolute simultaneity is an abstract
    idea.

    From there will emerge one of the most fundamental equations of the two
    hundred equations given by Dr. Hachel on relativistic kinematics:

    <http://nemoweb.net/jntp?KePRvlqpXmDxKlB61iUYg5xK6qo@jntp/Data.Media:1>

    In short, we CANNOT add or subtract speeds or times
    as we do for apples in a housewife's basket.

    w=u+v, it doesn't work.

    It's even worse than that, and that's what leaves intelligent people like
    Paul B. Andersen in incomprehension: observable times are not even addable
    to each other in accelerated frames of reference! Only proper times are!

    The theory of relativity is of a fantastic coherence and a fantastic
    conceptual beauty. The mathematical calculations are even much simpler
    than they are said.

    But we must first have the first key, the fundamental key: the
    understanding of universal anisochrony and especially not to confuse it
    with the relativity of chronotropy which is a true but different secondary phenomenon.

    R.H.
    <https://www.nemoweb.net/?DataID=KePRvlqpXmDxKlB61iUYg5xK6qo@jntp>

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  • From LaurenceClarkCrossen@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 30 17:39:39 2024
    Richard Hachel:
    (Not to be confused with anyone else.) It is true, as Socrates said that modesty ill-becomes a needy man.

    To take space as a vacuum and not speak of the abstraction, then how is
    it anisochronous?
    It is not because there is no need for the LT unless you have an ether.

    Unfortunately, Paul is not intelligent about logic, or he wouldn't have
    an LT without an ether.

    Relativity is an ugly, incoherent babble if you do not presume an ether
    and time dilation.

    Your assertion about anisochrony is mistaken.

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  • From LaurenceClarkCrossen@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 30 17:21:05 2024
    Yes, time can be well defined in math and physics in a way entirely
    relevant to relativity as time = distance/speed because those are the
    variables involved.

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  • From LaurenceClarkCrossen@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 30 17:24:48 2024
    Wozniak: No, I am saying it is like with sound. If you move towards a stationary ambulance with its siren going, there will be a Doppler shift because the relative speed of sound will be S + 30 mph. The same is true
    of the lightning bolt in the train thought experiment. Einstein denied
    this because he did not know what he was talking about.

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  • From Richard Hachel@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 30 18:39:46 2024
    Le 30/10/2024 à 18:39, clzb93ynxj@att.net (LaurenceClarkCrossen) a écrit
    :
    Richard Hachel:
    (Not to be confused with anyone else.) It is true, as Socrates said that modesty ill-becomes a needy man.

    To take space as a vacuum and not speak of the abstraction, then how is
    it anisochronous?
    It is not because there is no need for the LT unless you have an ether.

    Unfortunately, Paul is not intelligent about logic, or he wouldn't have
    an LT without an ether.

    Relativity is an ugly, incoherent babble if you do not presume an ether
    and time dilation.

    Your assertion about anisochrony is mistaken.

    My statement about anisochrony is one of the finest jewels of scientific thought.
    However, you ask an important question: "But if there is no ether, what do photons and particles in general surf on?"

    I will answer that since 1905 and Poincaré, the physicist no longer needs
    the notion of ether for a second, and he can convince himself that between
    here and there (apart from a few hydrogen atoms that wander around), there
    is nothing but emptiness, and no detectable or palpable support.

    Now, emptiness does not mean nothingness.

    If we remove all the matter from the universe, between A and B, something nevertheless remains: space and time.

    This thing on which photons or particles in general surf, is not matter,
    it is not ether, it is just TIME.

    There is in the universe in a constant way, between two given points A and
    B, separated by a distance of 3.10^8m, a time quantified at one second.

    It is on this second that particles surf.

    It is the universal anisochrony which gives the whole universe wave
    properties.

    There is no need for ether.

    As for the Poincaré-Lorentz transformations, they are the very basis of
    the description of the anisochronous universe, and remain valid in all
    frames of reference, including uniformly accelerated frames of reference
    and rotating relativistic frames of reference.

    R.H.

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  • From LaurenceClarkCrossen@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 30 19:26:29 2024
    Richard Hachel: The LT presumes an ether wind affects the light just as
    a current in a river affects a ship. It is invalid without an ether.
    The LT is based on the ether and is pointless without it, just as it
    would be pointless to use it to calculate the time it takes for a boat
    to cross a pond without a current. You are necessarily presuming an
    ether wind exists to conclude there is anisochrony.

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  • From Aether Regained@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 30 19:44:00 2024
    Richard Hachel:> Le 30/10/2024 à 18:39, clzb93ynxj@att.net (LaurenceClarkCrossen) a écrit :
    Richard Hachel:

    My statement about anisochrony is one of the finest jewels of scientific thought.
    However, you ask an important question: "But if there is no ether, what
    do photons and particles in general surf on?"

    I will answer that since 1905 and Poincaré, the physicist no longer
    needs the notion of ether for a second, and he can convince himself that between here and there (apart from a few hydrogen atoms that wander
    around), there is nothing but emptiness, and no detectable or palpable support.

    Now, emptiness does not mean nothingness.

    If we remove all the matter from the universe, between A and B,
    something nevertheless remains: space and time.

    This thing on which photons or particles in general surf, is not matter,
    it is not ether, it is just TIME.

    R.H.

    Say that aloud and hear yourself saying it, and you'll realize how
    nonsensical that sounds!

    If we extend your logic to the case of sound, we get:

    If we remove all the matter from the universe, between A and B,
    something nevertheless remains: space and time.

    This thing on which phonons or sound in general surf, is not matter, it
    is just TIME, except there is NO SOUND if you remove all the matter
    between A and B!

    Not a very sound way of reasoning, is it?

    It is possible to conceive of a space not filled with an aether, just as
    it is possible to conceive of a space not filled with any air. But such
    a space cannot support light propogation or apply any type of force on a particle present in this empty space. Without an aether, there is no
    gravity and no electromagnetism, just as there is no sound and no life
    in a space without air.

    And the best way to understand time is: its just what a counter attached
    to a trustworthy oscillator reads. All the confusions regarding time
    then disappear. You can't have photons or particles surf on the
    'readings of an oscillator counter'!

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  • From Richard Hachel@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 30 19:56:16 2024
    Le 30/10/2024 à 20:26, clzb93ynxj@att.net (LaurenceClarkCrossen) a écrit
    :
    Richard Hachel: The LT presumes an ether wind affects the light just as
    a current in a river affects a ship. It is invalid without an ether.
    The LT is based on the ether and is pointless without it, just as it
    would be pointless to use it to calculate the time it takes for a boat
    to cross a pond without a current. You are necessarily presuming an
    ether wind exists to conclude there is anisochrony.

    The ether wind is of no interest if we replace the ether with an
    anisochronous vacuum.
    On the other hand, once this is done the equations are then explained very well.
    Note that the ether implies an absolute space supported by "something": physically and experimentally, this is absurd and all the more absurd
    since we no longer need all this if we posit a simple universal
    anisochrony.

    R.H.

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  • From LaurenceClarkCrossen@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 30 20:57:14 2024
    Wozniak: It is a known fact that the relative motion of the Sun and
    Sirius is -5.5 m/sec as they are moving towards each other. It is not
    known which is moving towards which. This is known from the frequency of
    the light waves. If the Sun is moving towards Sirius, this shortens the frequency as certainly as Sirius moving towards the Sun. Take just the
    case of the Sun moving towards Sirius. Then, the frequency is shorter
    because the speed of the starlight from Sirius is C + 5.5 m/sec.

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  • From LaurenceClarkCrossen@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 30 21:00:57 2024
    Richard Hachel: That is to attribute qualities to the vacuum, so it is a reification fallacy.

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  • From LaurenceClarkCrossen@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 30 21:05:50 2024
    Aether Regained: Comparing with sound is a good analogy. However, one
    can have a particle concept of light and gravity that doesn't require an
    ether.

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  • From Bertietaylor@21:1/5 to Maciej Wozniak on Tue Nov 5 09:31:36 2024
    On Wed, 30 Oct 2024 9:02:06 +0000, Maciej Wozniak wrote:

    W dniu 30.10.2024 o 09:32, LaurenceClarkCrossen pisze:
    11. The relative speed of the observer must be added and subtracted from
    the speed of light just as with the speed of sound if we are even to
    qualify as rational at all.


    No serious model cares about "relative speed of
    observer" and no serious model ever will.

    Then they all say that the Earth is the still centre of the universe.
    Back to Aristotle via Einstein.

    Woof-woof
    What fools these apes be!

    For most of our real activities we use
    geocentric model. Heliocentric and ECi are
    also important. "Relative speed of observer"
    is just another gedanken absurd.

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  • From gharnagel@21:1/5 to LaurenceClarkCrossen on Tue Nov 5 13:20:46 2024
    On Wed, 30 Oct 2024 20:57:14 +0000, LaurenceClarkCrossen wrote:

    Wozniak: It is a known fact that the relative motion of the Sun and
    Sirius is -5.5 m/sec as they are moving towards each other. It is not
    known which is moving towards which.

    That's not the total relative motion, that's the radial motion, called
    "closing speed." The tangential motion is much larger (~17 km/sec).
    Motion is relative so to determine "which is moving" requires specifying
    a reference point. The presumed reference point is probably
    heliocentric.

    This is known from the frequency of the light waves. If the Sun is
    moving towards Sirius, this shortens the frequency as certainly as
    Sirius moving towards the Sun. Take just the case of the Sun moving
    towards Sirius. Then, the frequency is shorter

    Frequency isn't "longer" or "shorter." It is either higher or lower.

    because the speed of the starlight from Sirius is C + 5.5 m/sec.

    Completely false for two reasons. (1) It's not 5.5 m/sec, it's 5.5
    km/sec.

    (2) Using the test equation c' = c + kv:

    K. Brecher, "Is the Speed of Light Independent of the Velocity of the
    Source?", Phys. Rev. Lett. 39 1051–1054, 1236(E) (1977).

    "Uses observations of binary pulsars to put a limit on the source-
    velocity dependence of the speed of light. k < 2 × 10−9. Optical
    Extinction is not a problem here, because the high-energy X-rays
    used have an extinction length considerably longer than the distance
    to the sources."

    So the assertion that c' = c + v is refuted to 1 part in a billion.
    This justifies the claim:

    "Any ray of light moves in the 'stationary' system of co-ordinates
    with the determined velocity c, whether the ray be emitted by a
    stationary or by a moving body." ―Albert Einstein 1905

    "It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how
    smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong."
    -- Richard P. Feynman

    "It is surely harmful to souls to make it a heresy to believe what
    is proved." -- Galileo Galilei

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  • From Richard Hachel@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 5 15:05:23 2024
    Le 05/11/2024 à 14:20, hitlong@yahoo.com (gharnagel) a écrit :

    "Any ray of light moves in the 'stationary' system of co-ordinates
    with the determined velocity c, whether the ray be emitted by a
    stationary or by a moving body." ―Albert Einstein 1905

    This is one of the few times I agree with Albert Einstein.
    Although the idea is probably taken from Henri Poincaré.

    R.H.

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