XPost: talk.politics.mideast, talk.politics.guns, nyc.politics
XPost: alt.politics.socialism.democratic, alt.politics.socialism.democratic

At a pro-Hamas rally in the heart of New York City, speaker after speaker praised the slaughter of civilians that had taken place in Israel on
Saturday, after the terrorist group overwhelmed Israeli defenses in an audacious, unexpected raid.

“And as you might have seen, there was some sort of rave or desert party
where they were having a great time, until the resistance came in
electrified hang gliders and took at least several dozen hipsters,” one
speaker joked about the Hamas assault on a desert rave, where horrific
scenes of murder and rape took place.

It was a bracing spectacle that countered the grief pouring in from most
civic leaders, from Brooklyn to Berlin. But it was also evidence of a
split within the Democratic Party, with many younger activists, forged in
the Occupy Wall Street and Black Lives Matter movements, viscerally
identifying with the Palestinian cause. Israel’s founding story, as a quasi-socialist refuge for Holocaust survivors and other landless Jews, resonates less and less, especially as younger generations show little knowledge about the murder of 6 million Jews by the Nazis.

The controversial rally in Times Square was hosted by the Democratic
Socialists of America, a far-left organization that includes several
prominent House members in its ranks, including Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-
Cortez and Rep. Jamaal Bowman, both of New York, Rep. Rashida Tlaib of Michigan, who is the first Palestinian woman in Congress, and Rep. Ilhan
Omar of Minnesota, an outspoken critic of Israel.

In a widely criticized statement, Tlaib seemed to blame Israel for
provoking the attack with its occupation regime in Gaza and the West Bank.
“The failure to recognize the violent reality of living under siege, occupation, and apartheid makes no one safer,” ” she said.

Billed as “All Out for Palestine,” the event symbolized fractures in a Democratic establishment that was once solidly behind Israel. But as
Israel’s own government has moved steadily rightward, pulled along by
religious fundamentalists and West Bank settlers, the American left has embraced liberation struggles — including the fight for Palestinian
statehood — with a newfound zeal, imbuing their message with the jargon of social justice.

“Palestine’s struggle is our struggle,” one Black Lives Matter activist
said in 2021. Jewish activism was central to the civil rights movement of
the 1950s and ’60s, but more than a half-century later, the bonds between American Blacks and Jews have largely been severed.

Saturday’s appeared to conflate the terrorist group Hamas with the entire Palestinian people, who over the years have grown as exasperated with the extremists in their own midst as with the Israeli occupiers of the West
Bank and Gaza, who have killed thousands of Palestinians, including many civilians throughout the years in antiterror operations. In fact, the
Hamas incursions appears to have triggered a massive Israeli military
reprisal that is likely to kill hundreds if not thousands of innocent Palestinians while achieving none of the “liberation” progressives tout on social media.

As the crowd marched through Midtown Manhattan on Sunday and coalesced
around a stage in Times Square, attendees called for an “intifada
revolution.” Others mocked the murder of Israeli civilians. Another
popular chant was, “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free,” an implicit call for the elimination of Israel.

“Among the pro-Palestinian side, the mood was celebratory and spiteful. Demonstrators chanted “700,” apparently referring to the confirmed number
of Israeli fatalities in the attack so far,” reported the Times of Israel,
“and held up the number seven on their hands while making throat-slitting gestures. Others flashed victory signs with their hands while shouting insults.”

Ahead of the rally, New York Gov. Kathy Hochul condemned the planned
event, calling it “abhorrent and morally repugnant.” Rep. Ritchie Torres,
a rising New York progressive, stood up for Israel as well.

“Demonizing Israel — to the point of denying the humanity of Israeli
victims and the inhumanity of their perpetrators — is moral confusion masquerading as moral clarity,” Torres said.

But none of the DSA-affiliated members of Congress, including the two from
New York, appeared to express a similar concern. They are likely to face pressure from peers, journalists and constituents as they return to
Capitol Hill for what was already expected to be a chaotic week in
Washington. Saturday’s violence puts progressives in a bind: They want to
show their solidarity with the Palestinian cause without endorsing the
murder of innocents. So far, they have not found a way to do so.

https://news.yahoo.com/socialist-rally-in-times-square-praising-hamas- terror-attack-draws-widespread-condemnation-204123785.html

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XPost: talk.politics.mideast, alt.politics.socialism.democratic

On 2023-10-17, useapen <yourdime@outlook.com> wrote:

At a pro-Hamas rally in the heart of New York City, speaker after speaker praised the slaughter of civilians that had taken place in Israel on Saturday, after the terrorist group overwhelmed Israeli defenses in an audacious, unexpected raid.

This is quite disgusting, since Hamas clearly attacked unarmed civilians.
While you could argue that if Hamas sees their situation as a war with
Israel, a repression, and in that case they do not have much of any
chance against the Israeli military, if this is the way that war is
going to be fought then where is the end of that, and they would still
loose. If they attack Israeli civilians and then Israel attacks
Palestinian civilians, where does that end. Palestine would still loose
that war, and the only result seems to be a massive amount of civilian casualties on both sides.

Perhaps their strategy is: "Let's attack Israeli civilians, and hope
Israel will attack ourd civilians, and then we will use that as
propaganda with the other Arab / Muslem countries and together we will
destroy Israel." This would at least be quite dirty, because it seems
unlikely their own people will want to be sacrificed to create a casus
belli. It is also making the present situation (before the war) much
worse for everyone, on some faint hope that a massive amount of death
and faint hope of military victory would eventually improve the
situation in N years time.

Hence I guess it is fair to say that Hamas is a terrorist organization.
I don't know what the Palestinians can do to improve their situation,
but suspect their society isn't one of the best either.

“And as you might have seen, there was some sort of rave or desert party where they were having a great time, until the resistance came in
electrified hang gliders and took at least several dozen hipsters,” one speaker joked about the Hamas assault on a desert rave, where horrific
scenes of murder and rape took place.

While the people of the party broke the Torah law by dancing before an
idol, which is a death sentence in the Torah, at the current moment in
ISrael there has been no warning that these laws where going to be
enforced. Therefore it seems unreasonable from a human justice
perspective that they have received the death penalty.

(I realize most people care absolutely nothing for this issue. Many
people on Earth are probably still idolators. They do not relate to
a punishment for idolatry. Compare: there is or has been a death penalty
for murder in many countries. There is a wider right to defend
yourself from being murdered, by murdering your attacker. You could
argue that when you are defending yourself from a deadly attack, you
execute the death penalty. Compare: if someone at a shop gave you back
the wrong change so that you got back less than you should, this could
be called stealing if it is on purpose, but it is unlikely that it
will be accepted that you kill the person who was giving you back too
little change. There is no death penalty for a relatively small crime
like this (or indeed a mistake), and in the moment you don't have the
right to defend yourself by killing the one who is doing it to you.

So now we have two examples, one in which you may wildly and without
a court case or warning kill someone (who is in the process of committing
an offense for which the death penalty exists, say), and one in which
you may not do that, despite the other person being in the process of
committing a crime (say). If we now wound back time and put ourselves
in ancient Israel, with a law on the books and let's assume enforced
for people who commit idolatry, then you are in a situation more
similar to the former condition. You may kill a murderer to save your
life if there is on other option, and (perhaps) you may kill people
committing idolatry, if it is impossible to otherwise bring them to
court in good order (which I suppose is always the best). I guess the
nitty gritty of this can be argued at length, and for the modern mind
it may be difficult to accept that this behavior carries a death
penalty. The idolatry also changed. The ancient idolatry could be very
deadly with human and child sacrifices, whereas modern idolatry often
seems to be a lot more docile.

In a strict sense though, it is still idolatry, and that still has a
death penalty in the Torah, and they where doing it in the land of Israel.
From a *religious* point of view, you *could* argue that the God of
that land (the Creator of everything in this case) has executed the death
penalty on them. How real that is, I don't know. I don't dare to
speculate. Technically speaking you would have to ask a Prophet, if
there is one. I can only ask the question, since I'm not.

Personally I am against the death penalty, by the way, because human
justice is too imperfect.

This being said, in a strict historical and religious sense, the people
at the rave and Israel in general is guilty over idolatry and not
following their law the Torah. The punishment for this is to suffer
death, war, expulsion and near extinction (!). These laws have been
worded in the harshest sense possible. They are relevant primarely
within the land of Israel itself (it seems). To have this party there,
to allow it and then to side with them when they where attacked, you
could argue that this is breaking the Torah law. If you are religious
enough to think everything is done by the Creator, than the Creator was
within his rights to kill these people at the rave, and to start a war
against his own people for not following the Torah law. Israel herself
was sworn in on pain of death to keep this law. It is what it is, sorry.
This is what that law says. You can read it yourself if you like, and
you will have to come to the same conclusion.

In a modern non-religious sense, non-Torah like sense, the party was a
show of decadence right in the face of the suffering of Gaza. They are
dancing and being brainless, and celebrate an idol whose "teaching" is
to be apathetic and close your eyes to everything, while the world is on
the brink of World War 3, massive economic calamity developing, Israel
being corrupt and going down, no hope within Israel to return to a
sensible state of Justice and peace for everyone. Their solution: to
drink, maybe use drugs I suppose, and think of themselves and their
momentary pleasure. While it may still be ok if they did all the hard
work already and needed a break, I wonder what hard work for the cause
of Justice and Peace they may have been doing. Hard work for the boss to
pay the bills is one thing, but it is not enough to keep a Nation and a
World like this on track, not the way it is going. More is needed than
the ordinary. The ordinary will lead straight into World War 3. Who will
be dancing then ?

Perhaps the best way is to take a pragmatic approach: both sides did
wrong, and even if the wrong might not measure up against each other
(having a brainless party versus mass murdering people), if we all put ourselves against the highest standards (which are particularly high for
Israel and within Israel, so much more high than probably most people in
the world are willing to think about), then we could all do better and
focus on that. Focus on our own wrong. The Palestinians allowed
terrorists between them, and they shouldn't have. The Israelis have
allowed open idolatry in their own land, even right on the day of
celibrating the giving of the Torah. They shouldn't have allowed it, or
at least asked them to not do it within the land of Israel. They should
also implement the Torah, specifically I would like to ask Israel:
implement the Torah economy, immediately. Land for all, and stop the
debt games.

This could lead to the following: Israel stops attacking Hamas and Gaza
and anyone else, because they assume blame for the idolatry, and broader
for the forsaking of the Torah. The blood will be accepted as
punishment, as a correction. Maybe something good can still come out of
it, rather than more bloodshed.

By the way, the Islam also forbids idolatry. In that sense the Hamas was
also in their right, because presumably they are Muslems. The laws
against idolatry here historically are probably just as strict as the
Jewish ones. They have been so strict, because they where clearing out a tremendous violent mess, which I suspect existed in the Arab world
before the Islam took over. This is something a lot of people like to
forget, how bad it was under the idols. Can the far eastern apathy idol
be compared to the blood thirsty idols of thousands of years ago,
however. I don't know, probably not. What do you think ?

Against this the Jews may well react with "Ah, as usual we have to suck
it up and get all the blame, and why do we always have to give the right example of everything, why do we always loose in every argument ?". That
is too simple a thought. The problem is that you are constantly trying
to live like the gentiles, and then you get upset when you get blamed
for that, while it has been the whole plan that you would *not* do as
they do, but you would be the example Nation. If need be, you would be
the completely different ones. In the ideal situation, the gentiles will
see you, and learn to be better. Not the other way around, you learning
from them to be worse. It was you, Israel, who allowed the idolatry. You
didn't have to do that. Who asked you to do that ? Who asked you to come
to the land of Israel, and be a gentile Nation in that land ? It wasn't
your Prophets and it wasn't your God either, clearly. It was a bunch of
weird people, like Herzl and the rich who where breaking the Torah
anyway. Herzl reportedly wanted to convert Jewry to Catholicism (horror
of horrors). You didn't have the right to go to the land of Israel, not
within the system of the Torah, to which you are historically sworn to
obay it. Hence you first want to break your agreements, and then when
you get called out on it, you get upset that you can't play gentile and
be idolators and just do whatever you can come up with, without putting
any mind to it, like this Capitalist western thing you are running right
now in Yerushalayim.

If conversely you would have kept to your laws, then your God has
promised you all kinds of good. I guess you are welcome to test that. It doesn't make sense to say "we did bad but everyone does that, so we
don't want to be punished for it", rather you should be happy to get
punished, so that you become better, and from being better you will
become more happy in the long run. You could say "we did good, but it
didn't help us" if that is true. Is it true ? Why did you institute the
prosbul lie, why did you not distribute the land to all if you lay
claim to it, why did you not forgive the debt in the 7th year, and why
do you allow idolatry in the holy land. You're playing the gentile game,
and I guess you will then suffer the consequences which come with it.

If you cut yourself off from the good, from the greater moral claim,
then it is just one dog versus the other, isn't it. If one dog eats the
other, then so what ? That's it, gone. How can you play a game like
this, being so small (and internally divided) as you are ? Looking at
your map and size, you are probably 5 times weaker than the Netherlands,
which is already a relatively small Nation. Egypt is massive, Turkey is incredibly big, Russia above that is incomprehensibly large and
powerful, to the east you have Iraq and Iran and beyond that the massive
Empire of China. You want to be a small dog between these monsters ?
Then when you become their food, what greater right do you have to win
against them. Rome ate you alive, after you broke with the greater good.
You installed the prosbul, and not long after you became the food for
Rome. Rather than complain that Rome should have been nice to a fellow
dog, you could have chosen to come back to the Torah, give morality and humanity a chance, and who knows this added morality and morale could
have given you the strength to withstand the greatest Empires at least
in your own homes. Then you could rightly claim, why where we attacked, couldn't you leave us alone, we didn't do anything bad.

If you look at Rome, by the way, you see that they where motivated to
destroy the Druids as far away as Brittain. It was probably one of the
best thing Rome has done, if you look into what the Druids where up to.
It seems to have been a stone cold child murdering tyranny under this
insane gang for Druids. So you see that these Empires are still human
enough to be *motivated* by morality. Immorality motivates to destroy,
even right from the throne of Imperial Rome. If you ran a highly moral
society, this would demotivate the Roman Empire to destroy you, and
motivate you to defend it, and maybe that would be enough to save you.

Compare Napoleon in Europe, why did all those Monarchies fall ? Why was Napoleon so exceptionally succesful compared to all other Generals in
history (I read something about it once, ok I admit it was a video) ?
He seemed to represent democracy and to a degree he did, while the
opposing camps where these corrupt and tired Monarchies. People where
done with the Monarchies. The corruption, the greed, the stupidity. They
wanted rights for all, you could say they wanted a greater measure of
Torah ! You see how powerfdul morality is ? This also shows that most
gentiles are not Amalekese, they are not criminals. The criminals cannot
be motivated by morality, but ordinary people can.

The point becomes, if you went back to your morality, the Torah, and
gave the example, none of this should be happening. The reverse should be happening to you. I merely computed the Torah here for you, that is all.
Anyone can do it.

Stop all war except urgent defensive action within reason, and focus on rebuilding a moral Israel. Then see how far you get. This is your
historical mandate, and you know it. Impossible ? Only because you don't
want to. Nothing stops you, except you.

(Crazy long, convoluted & too broadly put, sorry. ;-)
--
Economic & political ideology, worked out into Constitutional models,
with a multi-facetted implementation plan. http://market.socialism.nl
^^^^^^^^^
This forced me to respons, so: I'm totally not standing with these ppl.

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