It seems to be fairly simple to determine what most of the Jewish people
want with their Redemption. There are of course always the few who
really know, but those are typically a small minority. The issue can be
reduced to "what do people want", because what they really want will
likely color what they in majority expect from the Redemption, also
because the "Redemption" is said to be a time of great happiness for the
Jewish people (who survive to see it, that is). I wouldn't dare think
anything else, rather it will be greater than we can think, however it
hasn't happened yet and therefore people will have their own
expectations. Expectations which can block it from becoming true.

If you tell someone "You will have a time when you will be extraordinarily happy, you and your people will succeed in just about anything." then it
makes sense that some of the first things people expect to happen is to
succeed in the things they already try to succeed at.

Most if not all people want more money.

Hence it follows that many Jewish people might think that after the
Redemption they will have a lot of money. It is that simple I guess.
With the money they could buy luxurious houses, cars, and so on.

Most people, especially if they suffered war, want there to be peace.

Hence the Jewish people likely expect peace after the Redemption,
although it has been abundently clear that the time during the
Redemptive process itself, will be exceptionally bad and deadly.

People who have trouble starting a family, want a family. People who
struggle with their business, want it to flourish.

But now the point ...

Rabbis who are earning their way teaching the Torah, want their teaching
to reach their students, to earn money doing so (which is fine by me,
earning money is a good thing), and if they really care they want to
become wiser in terms of the Torah, hopefully also to become a better
more moral person. If they are studying the Talmud, they may want to
study more of it. If they learn Rambam, they want to understand more. If
they have a class of students, perhaps they would like a better or
bigger class, or both. If they try to teach Rabbinical Halacha (law),
they would like more Jewish people to observe that law. They want
Rabbinical Judaism to become stronger, to the point it rebuilds the 3rd
Temple, etc.

More and better, basically. Especially when you think what you do is
good, morally good, you want it to expand. You want it to have more
impact, to that it will do more good in the world.

Doesn't that make sense ? I think it makes sense at least. Notice how
this is not an immoral wish, but rather the opposite. There can be some
wish for money involved also, and in some cases also about power, but
you always have that. People are different, some are better than others,
and we will assume for a moment that most are good people. Those are the
ones that matter anyway, especially for the Redemption. If all good
Rabbis wanted the Redemption, and there are in absolute terms enough of
them, then the bad Rabbis if any could not stop it. The focus is on good people.

What the Rabbis do probably *not* want, and you cannot blame them for
that, is a lessening of their teaching of the Torah. They don't want
more doubt, they don't want (I hope) more divisions. They don't want
someone undercutting their work. The teaching of the Torah is already a difficult thing. The Jewish people loose people all the time, to the
crazy idolatrous religions, often lost to decadence and not caring, and
so on. It is a struggle. It is like they are holding one end of the
Torah, and someone else wants to pull it away from them and throw it
into the fire. During the struggle, they don't need someone pulling
their leg. If someone did, this would be upsetting (literally and
figuratively ;-). They might stumble, and in the ensuing chaos and
confusing, many Jewish people might be lost to the chaos. Indeed, I
would think that is not an imagined danger. It is a real danger.

The Rabbis expect that rather than get tripped over, since what they
believe they are doing is good (and a lot is no doubt good), the
Redemption will put them on solid ground. They expect war and hell from
"The Nations", but in terms of Torah, they expect probably more
stabilization and security. In other words: "moshiach" will be on their
side, and strengthen them. Their teachings will expand over the people,
who are attacked, and eventually they win and Redeem Israel.

Does any of this sound unreasonable ? Let me know. I think this is
almost exactly what most Rabbis think will happen.

Then we have another element, which is potentially even more
conservative: the students. Students are by nature subjugated to their
teacher. Students also include financiers, who pay for the study, the
place, the books, the time. It can be parents also. Because they are
subjugated to the teacher in terms of what is the Torah, the teacher
teaches and the students absorbs the teachers' words and corrections,
these students and supporters are possibly even less accepting of any destabilization in these teachings themselves, especially if it is not
in the usual direction the common people are pulling away from the
Torah, which is in the direction of decadence and greed (less legal
pressure upon them, more supposed freedom).

While the Rabbi might know so much Torah, that if someone came along and
wanted to change something in the whole teachings that they where doing,
then it is not unlikely at all that they are smart enough to notice it
if what someone is proposing is either preposterous and dangerous (like
the you-know-which idolatry religion again, and their tireless efforts
to take the Jewish Nation down), or if it is something that is actually
quite reasonable and potentially true. The Rabbi might think to himself,
in the latter case "You know what, this argument is actually not that
bad at all, and I can already cite you 5 commentaries who agree with
it." The Rabbi can better oversee the whole thing, because he knows
more. However the students, who are subjugated to the teacher and to
what the teacher points to as worthwhile Sages and so on, they could in
turn be upset and call something false and a lie and whatever, simply
because it is a challenge to certain things their teacher has told them,
which they assumed where correct. They lack the understanding to know
that in some cases, what someone proposes which may be at odds with what
the Rabbis tell them, is indeed preposterous and bad, or is actually potentially just more Torah, or (if possible) even better Torah, like a stronger or more stringent or however you want to put it.

Example. The students get told to study Morse Code (CW), and they get
shown a visual chart. I won't show you a visual chart, because
eventually I was told you should avoid doing anything visual, as it
interfers with your decoding later. Your brain learns the wrong way if
you first put visuals into your brain, because you end up with an
additional decoding step. First you hear a sound, then you decode the
sound into visuals in your head, and then the visuals into letters. This
slows you down. There may be opinions, but I happen to believe this.
Let's say someone of the latter school, who says to not learn visuals
when you are trying to learn sounds, steps into the classroom, and
begins to say: "These Visuals are wrong, take them down immediately."
The students may react: who are you, these visuals are correct, our
teacher told us so ! Go away and leave us alone. Before the other school
person has time to explain, or even if he tries, the students have
thrown him out already. He might then go to the teacher, who knows more
about Morse Code, and there he might actually get an ear (heh). The
students cannot oversee what is going on, but the teacher can.

These are some of the pressures which create Conservatism in teaching
the Torah as it is being taught now.

*

Now you probably guessed it already where this is going, and exactly of
course: the point is that the Redemption may *not* involve such a
simplistic strengthening of what currently is. It may indeed involve a correction of Rabbinical Judaism. This would be the opposite of what
they are expecting to happen, especially if they think the Redemption is
near.

The usual example here is the prosbul, so let's get that out of the way already. There is no hope that the prosbul is not a lie. It is an out
and out fraud. The Lamp of Helena is idolatry, or close to it, and that
is more than enough to resist it. In terms of Jewish history, even
literally in a war to the death. This is idolatry ! It is a death
sentence in the Torah (!). The Jewish people are not allowed to bow to
the Sun or the Moon or the stars, or have fear of them. The so-called
Lamp of Helena, reflects the morning sunlight, and rather than turn
their backs on the Sun and simply don't even care where it is, now the
Jewish people where supposed to bow down to this glistening point of
sunlight.

I don't know exactly how this lamp is functioning, but if you look out
over a modern city when the sun is out, and one window reflects the sun
to you, it is a bright point for you. This is Sun worship. The Torah
and the Temple already have their lights, and they don't need any other
lights. This light is the Menorah. If this is what was decided was enough,
then leave it at that. If you want to thank anyone from bringing dades
during a famine, you are supposed to thank your Creator for bringing
you into contact with a (hopefully) nice person who gives you food,
and so you can thank both. You don't have to sacrifice everything and
go over into idolatry, just because someone brings food for you (Queen
Helena reportedly brought food to Yerushalayim, and this is where this
idol comes from).

Yo, are you wining about a 2000 year old whatever thing ? Yes, but it is
more serious than you might think: the Rabbis (sortof, "the Rabbis")
have recreated this tool, this idol, and it is ready and waiting to be
put up on the 3rd Temple. This is how serious they take their idolatry !
I think that is enough reason for me to also care about it, and
complain, because it is idolatry. Idolatry is bad, because it causes mindlessness. The idol will fix everything ? That is basically behind
it. Often the Sun is the idol, and imaginary gods associated with the
Sun. Well just think about it, the Sun is hell if it wasn't for the
night. You don't enjoy the Sun, if it wasn't for the tempering influence
of the dark, the outer space if you will. In this balance is where we
live, and in Judaism, who created this so that we can live ? Hashem, who created both dark and light. I also wonder if this worship of this
strong point of light, does something to the psyche of the idolator.
Rather than put hope into a careful set of laws, the overpowering
blinding light will now be their god - and of course, whomever controls
that light. Someone should write a book about idolatry I guess, and
investigate it more deeply ;-). In any case, it is forbidden.

Here we see a few problems with modern Rabbinical Judaism, including the failure to distribute the land. The Rabbis will not likely want to
accept that they need correction, for above stated reasons. They don't
want this potential destabilization. I can't see how there can be a
Redemption, without also including these corrections. You can't be
serious that you have a "moshiach" and he will ratify your prosbul for
you, which is simply an offense, as well as absurd. The 7th year loan cancellation may be broken, when the Court of Justice puts their stamp
on a loan ???!!! Clearly insane, clearly an out and out in your face
fraud, shameless. A failure to punish the rich for their greed.

Now the issue becomes: it doesn't matter if it is a big or a small
thing: it upsets the boat, it upsets the authority of the current
teachers, and this is why they may resist it. The students might resist
it even harsher.

Thus things are stuck. No Redemption. It was not what they expected or
wanted from it, but rather it started with the opposite. To put it
differently: it has to contain the opposite of what they want. I suppose
what they still hope is that they first get validated, and then by the
end that Israel is all doing well and good and the Rabbis are happy,
only then there might be some corrections given to them, and they
happily accept without much of a fuss. That could indeed be an easy way
out. Will that happen: who knows ? Maybe, maybe not. It certainly would
remove this challenge upon them, upon the Rabbis and their students, to
accept a correction which goes against what they have been learning,
even though it is relatively minor (well, I guess, still it is
important and might not be so minor).

One could go on to speculate ... how can one live a life in the truth,
if one cannot accept being rebuked when wrong ? Isn't that part of being
a good person ? Why should the Rabbis be allowed to avoid this
challenge, so that they first get all they want, and then an easy
correction when they are basically all listening to the same teacher
already, who strengthens their legs ? I don't know. Maybe yes, maybe no.

In case of no, the Redemption is blocked, by the Rabbis. They don't get
(first) what they are hoping for, and so they end up blocking it. I
think it may be enough of an offense to not accept being rebuked, so
that you cannot make it into a state of Redemption, until you correct
yourself. It is a case of humility. Can you accept rebuke, then you are
humble. If not, then maybe you are not so humble. If you are humble, you
may listen to the one in need, even if they don't look so great at the
moment. If you are humble, and you thought your King or idol was great,
then you might still allow yourself to doubt your earlier opinions when
you hear the cries of the poor, of those who need help, even if the King
or the priests of some idol told you not to care, or that it was not
true. Isn't that needed in a Nation of Just and peaceful people, who
help each other ?

I guess this is how things end up stuck. No Redemption, no matter how
often the Rabbis say it is now, it is imminent, and so on. They are
themselves also blocking it, they are themselves blocking the Torah.
It gets a lot worse still with some, but I won't even bother with what
some of the less observant schisms are doing. Probably it was only human
that this was going to happen (as argued above). It has to do with
misplaced pride. Funny how this word is a banner of those who oppose the
Torah. It is as if heaven is talking to the Jewish people, saying to
them: Do you see this word, and do you see the wrong these people are
doing ? I am telling you, that this word "pride" is a mistake. You see
this flag all over the world, it is in your face, it is a "pride" flag.
This pride is wrong. Why this message to humanity ? I don't know, and I
see that this gets like magical thinking now, but I guess you could have
a thought about it. "Pride comes before the fall."

Also your Yeshivas, they are sometimes exceedingly well outfitted.
Personally I love to see wood carving, but the fact is that the Yeshiva
may be beautiful, splendid even, and as such I have nothing against
that, however if the Torah taught there is a watered down version of
what it should be, containing serious errors, then one starts to wonder:
is this also a case of misplaced pride ? Shouldn't first the law taught
there be what it should be, and then there is time to make the place as beautiful as a palace, fit for something as impressive as that ? It is
nice though, that the Yeshiva is looking good, rather than merely some
private houses of rich people.

Anyway, I guess this is the present situation, and it probably won't
change soon, even if the dying gets worse and worse. We shall see ...
(I warned you again, and showed you the way out, so you can forget about
blaming me, thanks. I strongly suggest you stop tarrying with your
Torah, and don't think you really know what the Redemption will exactly
look like, besides some broad issues I suppose. Don't expect too much
that it will play to your pride, if any.)

Outrageous how there is no one willing to stand against the prosbul with
me. It is clear that rebuke has become impossible. Therefore I don't
know what kind of future there is for Israel this way. You may expect
your King to arrive and make your houses great, and who knows this dream
which you share with the western idolators will come true, but I doubt
it.

--
Economic & political ideology, worked out into Constitutional models,
with a multi-facetted implementation plan. http://market.socialism.nl

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)