Sometimes I really wonder ... all this talk and opinions about
"moshiach", but aren't they worried that when it actually happens they
got it wrong. If only they had spend their time on Toroh economic law
(land ownership & loans to the poor, breaking the chokehold of the rich
over the people), perhaps the Redemption would be mostly or entirely
done already.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2811/jewish/Sighting-Moshiach.htm

Sighting Moshiach By Tzvi Freeman

Question:

Is it true that the Moshiach shall suddenly appear on a main street
in Jerusalem, a poor old man with a wild but angelic look, spewing
forth wisdom and declaring the time of redemption has arrived? If so,
why will they not lock him up?

Seems possible. I did check a few people, probably insane, who claimed
to be 'moshiach', but they had nothing much to say. A few had some common plattitudes, one of them started talking about 2 to the Nth power (math)
and it seems to make no sense whatsoever. Typically they are Hillel the
Elder / Jesus like: friendly and with common plattitudes about peace,
but no bite to it, no program, no logic, no insights. Yes, we all want
peace, we knew that already. The question is how exactly.

Is it true that he shall be announced on all the media worldwide
at 6 pm, along with offers for free El Al tickets? If so, who will
finance this?

After a certain point of the Redemption happening, it seems conceivable
this could happen, but that would not be the start of it I guess.

I notice: constant focus on the person. Not the question is asked: "What
parts of the Torah will he try to correct ! Are we doing something wrong
with family law ?! Will the target be the State ??? Wow I can't wait,
will there be new laws as per Jeremiah 31:31 ??!! So exciting, what will
it be about ! We have heard we are going to understand our Torah now,
what do you think are the reasons behind the law of the Shabbos ! Maybe
we can figure it out already now !"

That would be the right focus, but instead it is non-stop about the
person, which is close to idolatry. That this 'moshiach' is wise and all
kinds of greatness and whatnot ... he this he that he so and he such.
I think the whole focus is wrong.

It doesn't matter if your Prime Minister's hair smells nice or not. It
does matter what laws are passed concerning employer and employee
relations. Right ?

It is understandable though, because also the Tanach creates this issue:
the Prophets talk about a specific person and describe the person, and
the law of Mozes also says to check a person if their predictions come
true and if they live by and conform to the Torah, and only then listen
to them as they may be a Prophet of heaven coming to help Israel. So
there is a short checklist, to check the person, and that puts focus on
the person. In that sense, Israel can't be blamed for this focus ...

Nevertheless, you could argue that this system of Prophets is already an attempt to go around the lack of wisdom and thinking within Israel,
because ... stupidity, basically. Stupidity seems to be a major problem,
not merely with Israel but with humanity at large (and I am of course,
also stupid). "My people perish, for lack of knowledge." If the people
used their brain, rather than them forgetting about the Jubilee on land
and everything being around markets in land and other greedy and power centralizing schemes all around the world, it would be the exact
opposite. There would be all manner of land rights systems everywhere,
each with some good qualities to it. It could be a great world full of interesting mechanisms for land ownership.

They think markets in land are fine, because they do not use their
brains. How could Moshe Rabbeinu deal with a people who do not use their
brain ? How could he make a system where the people who spoke the truth
after he died, could still get through to a people who do not use their
brain. It is relatively easy and also "vibes" (heh lol) with the betting
vices of humanity, to make it a sport of predicting the future. A says
this, B says that will happen. When it becomes exceedingly (seemingly) difficult to predict, someone could be given the credit for getting it
right ... but only if they demand a return to the Torah (etc).

There is of course a hole in this system also: what if someone is an
agent of the ruling Empire or other great power, who is able to conduct
major events either overtly or covertly, and then can pretend to have "prophecied" them. An example is for example Albert Pike, who wrote
about three world wars that the evil cliques where planning, and it is
indeed seeming to happen that way. He was apparently part of the
planners for all this evil. You could still strike him down by the rules
of Mozes, because he does not conform or ask conformity to the laws of
the Torah. If he had had an agent however, who could be pretended at
least to follow the Torah, things could become difficult. The last
safeguard is then HKB'H himself. He could for example mess with
something, and a prediction would come out false, or just stop the heart
of the fake prophet if He thinks it has gone too far, etc.

Anyway, so there is this focus on a person, which I regret because it is
better to focus on the content itself: truth, justice, law, morality,
etc. It is understandable that it was created, and it is even awe
inspiring that this was set up and how it was run effectively. The brain
just stops (it's natural mode in human beings ;-P lol). If Israel had
however really understood what they where doing, I suppose they wouldnot
have needed Prophets, or you could argue, they would themselves all be
Prophets like those listed in the Tanach. I make the argument though, to
not go over the top with this personality focus one way or the other,
but try to switch on the brain if possible, and try to really understand
the Torah, or if you prefer a secular form of morality, because the
Torah is moral. You could understand the moral principles behind it in a secular way. Then you wouldn't need prophets or even Moshe Rabbeinu or
Sinai or all that to do the Torah and just do it on believe in that.

I see the risk, and so would advice: for a Jew it is best to just follow
the Torah one way or the other, but you can still try to also understand
what is morality and what is good. The danger is that the human
understanding keeps failing, and if you then follow this failing
understanding you fail to do a lot of good which is already in the Torah
- even if when you had studied even more, you could (should) discover the
same. So, it is better to just keep doing the Torah anyway, because it
is proven and because of it's high standing in general.

You also need to understand that you have gone wrong with this. You did
the opposite, and Rabbinical Judaism supports this fraud. You pretended
to think about morality, but it was sorely substandard and useless,
outright wrong actually, such as the arguments for the prosbul. You also
lost your Jubilee on land, which is a calamity perhaps like no other.
This is the wrong way around. You should have done a good job on
morality, and then find out that the 7th year debt cancellation is great
and good. It helps the poor, it puts a bottom in their suffering. If you thought it all through, you would even see that the rich get humbled by
this law, their greedy vices are toned down, and those who are so
extreme in their greed, you might get really lucky with them when they
try to hold on to their money and openly declare they are no longer
Jews. Best of all, they might leave. Let them take their loot, better be
rid of them. Having thought it all through to the point of
understanding, you would perhaps start to revel in Torah finance law,
and make loans to the poor left and right. More understanding, more
Torah, more morality, more happiness, and less crime.

Is there truth to that which they say, that in those enlightened
days there will be only study of Torah and no more reckless fun? Is
it true that the entire order of nature will change suddenly as the
Anointed One appears?

Response:

Yes, definitely a case for pity. No (aside from the media
announcements)--it's not anything like what you describe.

How do you know ? An old poor man in the street demanding Justice and
talking sense but being ignored, perhaps even locked up, is quite close
to what the Prophets have said about 'moshiach'.

The arrival of Moshiach and the accompanying turnabout in the World
Order, is a very pragmatic ideal. In fact, much of it has happened
already.

Really ? What would that be ?

Of course, as Maimonides puts it, nobody

Ahh Maimonides, let's look at someone who debased the Torah with his
heter iska to resolve the issue of someone (moshiach) who is supposed to
*mend* breaches in the Torah ?

really knows exactly what's going to happen—The
Almighty-Master-Of-All-Plans-To-Whom-All-Is-Revealed is really
concerned about the suspense factor here.

Granted that there indeed is a lot of suspense. I thought of it like it
was the greatest even advertizement campaign the world has ever seen,
the longest running and the widest known. Now that we see the power of
the Television and all the lies money can buy with the magic of modern technology, perhaps it is now clear to us why it was perhaps necessary.
All the money of all the evil people in the world, all their evil
Empires, all focussed together to create a Dystopian hell world thanks
to an unprecedented control over what people see, hear and think, and
who is able to - as it where - through a stone through it's forehead,
and kill the monster ? Israel. It is already done you could argue. It is
the biggest and most effective advertisement campaign even today, and I
don't even think that will change, even if they put a TV blearing
propaganda on every corner. Israel has won already, the Torah has won.

But allow me to let you in
on a few of the key details, as I humbly understand them:

1. The first thing Moshiach does is do away with bad marketing.

This is what I wanted to get to: huh ? This sounds very unrealistic.
We have massive amounts of money and cunning focussed on manipulating
the minds of every Nation in the world, Israel included. Now there is
one dude somewhere, who is apparently very just and just a nice guy, but
he is poor and suffering and nobody listens to him. Let's say that he
finally gets some traction, right ? At some point, he has to get some
people to his side. It makes sense that it would first be one, but let's
say it is 600 000 all of a sudden - which is not what the sources seem
to say, because I heard the Rabbis say it would happen "bit by bit"
(yes I do quote the Rabbis, because despite some problems with them, I
think they are still great (and my goodness, what a difference with the gentiles and their supposed 'wise men' if you can even use such a word
here)).

How do you just do away with marketing ? Some guy with the money to buy
an advertizement, is already marketing, perhaps marketing of lies. How
do you stop that ? Can you and should you even ? It is a big world, and
there is a lot of propaganda in it. How do you stop that ? Snap of the
fingers, magic, miracle ? It sounds quite unrealistic.

To argue that someone who wants the truth stops listening to propagand,
I suppose that could happen. But "do away with" sounds like it is
literally not there anymore, like he ordered all propaganda to stop. To
stop all bad propaganda in the world, it seems to me it takes an act of
God, and that would also mean it is not 'moshiach' doing it, even if it
where to happen.

On what is it based that the first act of the 'moshiach' is to do away
with bad propaganda ? I do not know a source for this. A serious source
would of course be: the Tanach. Is there at least a secondary source ?

What does seem to be written in the Tanach is: will fight the wars of
Hashem. If he fights the wars of Hashem, it sounds he 'the moshiach' is
part of struggles for what is right and good. All kinds of struggles or
even outright wars, which are justified and necessary. While struggle
against bad propaganda could certainly be one of those struggles, to do
away with bad propaganda doesn't just sound like struggling for what is
right, it sounds like a sudden and overwhelming victory by decree, to
the point that there isn't even a struggle anymore. It seems that this
'would fight the wars of Hashem' does not even imply victory (does it?).

That's
the true villain that has held us back all these years. Ask any
consumer electronics or computer engineer. We could all own household
robots to do our work. We could be consuming less than 10% of the
natural resources we consume now—if it weren't for those nefarious
busy bodies who market quantity rather than quality. Given the true
needs of most people and the productivity possible with modern
technology, we should all be working an average of 2.5 hours a
week. What's responsible for the other 60+ hours? Bad Marketing.

This seems to be based on nothing. The author has decided 'bad
marketing' is the cause of everything bad, and therefore 'moshiach' his
first act is to do away with bad marketing ? What is the argument ?

Moshiach's marketing people will get people's minds back on the right
track. Thinking about real quality of life. About their relationship
with the earth and with their bodies and their souls and the people
around them. Once that's done, just about everything else we need to
create paradise is here already.

Source ? Logic ? Moshiach has marketing people ? I guess that could be
so, but why would the focus be on 'quality of life' and what does that
mean ? Doesn't that mean a good car for most people ? To think about the
Earth and their social interactions. I guess that is nice, but why would
this be the focus if not the bulk of the effort ? Everyone already knows
we "just need to be nice to each other" and "everything should work out
if we are". That is nothing new, isn't it, and just saying it again will
help ? You just said it right there in this article, so why wouldn't
that be enough ? The Redemption should happen right now, by this logic.

What the sources do say, is that 'moshiach' will annihilate and wipe out Amalek, evil people. He will also somehow turn the fathers to care for
their sons (IIRC), or else Hashem will have to wipe Israel out.

2. The people will come up with a real wise individual and make him
their mentor and leader—not the other way around like in the fairy
tales.

Wow really, the people will just "come up with" someone. Source ? Logic ?
How will the people do this ? Do the people organize elections ? Ah, but
they have elections, and they elect the person they like the most. I
guess Bibi is the moshiach then. Problem solved !

You go against the Torah, because it is exactly *not* Israel who comes
up with their Prophets. When Israel comes up with leaders, you get
all too often misleaders. More clearly though: the Prophets of Israel
are authenticated and declared not by the masses of Israel, certainly
not by the leaders of Israel, but by the strength and truth of their
word, the self evident morality, and specifically to make correct
predictions about the future to a very difficult to foresee degree, even
to the point of human impossibility - so that it proves how heaven is
behind these people. Heaven appoints the Prophets of Israel, and Hashem
says: I chose this man Moshe Rabbeinu, even if you want to stone him to
death, you will not, but you will listen, so that you can live.

As you put it yourselves: how else can he avoid being locked
up?

If you go by the Torah (you are Chabad, aren't you?), how did Moshe
Rabbeinu prevent being locked up ? HKB'H himself protected him, when it
was necessary.

This is stated clearly in numerous sources, for example, "They
will search out David their king...", "They will make for themselves
a king and rise out of the land". It just seems pretty obvious that
it's the people who make the leader — a self-declared leader is
little more than just another nut-case.

This is also possible. It certainly fits with my system at least. The
people will indeed elect their own King, and they should choose from the
House of David, to honor their heritage and their Torah.

Also you made the mistake of saying 'leader', when 'moshiach' is
supposed to be a teacher, rather than a 'leader'. You don't even search
for any sort of 'moshiach' anyway, so you are creating a difficult
situation. Leader boss and King are similar, prophet advisor and teacher
are also similar. Anyone who thinks they have something other people
should know, has an obligation to say what they think is the truth, and
this already puts them in the role of an advisor, which can be a sort of
a teacher. There is nothing wrong with that. Indeed the Tanach says:
there is safety in having many advisors (IIRC).

Even the Kabbalists agree that Moshiach isn't planning on a sudden
appearance. Rather, the people will slowly wake up to the fact that
he's already here. Just not in places people generally look.

Well, probably not many people look in SCJ on Usenet, full of trolls and
one crazy person writing insanely long articles ;-) lol However I would
like to warn you also: this is all you get, and it is probably already
too much. Don't count on anything else. If this isn't enough for you,
but this is supposed to be it: too bad for you, enjoy your death.
Enough is enough, chances are chances, you blow them you loose. This is
already crazy enough what I try to do here, to argue for YOUR Torah, and
still you dare go on with your lies. Fine, have it your way, live the
lie, and die with the lie.

3. The arrival of Moshiach is not much of a greater miracle than
the sudden fall of the communist dictatorship. True, there will be a
couple of big Signs-and-Wonders-scenarios—some that'll make the Ten
Plagues and the Crossing of the Red Sea look like kid's play. Like,
how about the splitting of the Euphrates, for one? But, who says
glitz makes a miracle? Personally, I think Moses would have been
pretty impressed by the kind of miracles that happened in Eastern
Europe and on the Internet over the last few years.

Fact is, nature itself is supernatural. Just that we're too busy to
notice. After a bit of time studying with Moshiach, we'll be able to
see clearly without the wool pulled over our eyes.

Possible. I honestly don't know either how it will go. It goes like how
it goes, I suppose. It depends on people's choices. In the end though, I
expect heaven will put a minimum to it. It will happen, if not
naturally, then it will be pushed. It cannot fail, the costs are too
great (argued in other posts: hell on Earth and possible human
extinction even, not to mention the severe demoralization of Israel and
I don't think that such woulb be acceptable). I expect it will go
naturally, but if it takes too long heaven will start to tickle the
situation as it then exists, and if that still fails, push a little
more, and more and more, until it starts to click and then again let it
go naturally, etc. It is supposed to be an historical natural process,
but nevertheless it is not allowed to fail.

It could be a 14 year old hanging on some forum today running to his
mother shouting 'moshiach is here!' and she calls Ha'aretz newspaper
and they open up big and bam, the entire Redemption is in full swing
just weeks later. That could be natural. If Israel chooses to behave
that way, that could be it. It could be that Israel keeps being deaf
and blind for years to come, full of obstinacy and fear, full of
disghust and doubt, full of themselves and full of hatred, also being
very distracted and confused. Years go by as the second holocaust takes
it's toll, millions upon millions of Jewish peole being slaughtered all
over the world untill less than a million survive, hiding away in caves
and cellars. It could be that in one or the other sewer pipe, the
moshiach is hiding with some Jewish refugees, and as they lay there not
knowing what to do else, the topic turns to the Torah and the 'moshiach'
turns out to have a few good words to say, which impress them and give
them hope, and so the word spreads until eventually they band together
and overthrow the destroyers, right there in Yerushalayim.

I mean, who knows ? If it is supposed to be an historical process, in a
world of choice and consequences, it seems there is many ways it could
happen ? I guess that makes it quite exciting !

If all that fails, there is still the traditional way of the Torah: an authenticated prophet, strong in the Torah, his words impressive,
morality unquestioned, predictions about the future of a precision which
seems humanly impossible, and then this Prophet might at some point
be tasked by heaven: go to the 'moshiach', go to such and such a house,
take the person you see, bring him to the central square and anoint this person, he is your moshiach, he will teach Israel.

... and what do you know, Israel has indeed prophets who have already
made many predictions which are coming true all the time: dani18.com
This line of the future is already in preparation. I for one, believe
that these people are true and extremely reliable, and may be capable of pointing out 'moshiach', if asked to do so by heaven.

4. You appear concerned that the World to Come may be a rather boring
affair. Actually, Moshiach is when the real fun starts. There will
still be the same sports, entertainment, and good, clean shopping
sprees. But kicking a ball or buying clothes will be a form of
meditation on the Oneness of Creation. Come to think of it, so will
all human activities.

Unknown. Maybe yes maybe no. Maybe for Israel this and the gentiles
that. If the second holocaust happens, the sadness will be great. I
don't know if 'sports' will be thought of as a good thing at that point
by Israel, as it is hardly something which is of the highest morality.

Personally, I thought of sports as a diversion from war, to redirect
those violent instincts to something of a game, a first step away from
evil if you want. If it is fit for Israel, the holy Nation, I am not
sure. It could be a step down. I think that there will probably be a lot
of small business activity, crafts and the like, although that is not
the 'world to come' as it seems to be described. The great peace is
probably going to make every moment you are alive, feel as a gift and a miracle. Existing itself will be a great source of joy. With and endless
future ahead of you where you can learn to become better and better,
which equals more and more happiness, and everything is supportive and
positive toward you. This is going to be a great feeling. The fear is
gone, there is full confidence in the future and the present.

This for those who are good, "true Jews" if you will, whose have hearts
of gold, whose minds are made to be good. The feeling that Creation is
like a mother who has them on their arms, a father fully capable of
taking care of everything. Complete safety and togetherness with other
good people, with a clarity of mind about what is good, what shall be
done, and that it is getting done. So the days would pass "and none will
make them afraid".

For the people who are not good, things are likely going to look
different. They are probably less happy with the good winning everything. Perhaps they will leave to lesser Nations, I don't know ? It will also
likely be a great feeling, that Israel has succeeded and is doing what
is needs to be doing. The children will grow up, so impressed and so enthusiastic, that the world is how it should be, and they will not be demoralized as their grow older.

5. Hi-tech is only here now as a preparation for the technological
applications of the times of Moshiach. M.I.T., IBM, Xerox-Parc—you
guys ain't seen nothin' yet! When finally we become masters over
our own tools—rather than the other way around—we shall start to
utilize them to discover the G‑dliness within Creation and within
ourselves.

While this is probably true in the future at some point, I don't know if
this can be allowed in the short term or even our lifetimes. Humans
abuse technology greatly, to such an extend they have lost the right to
keep their toys (in my opinion). The danger is too great, the evil they
do is too vicious. It seems to be quite possible that the Earth will be
so damaged, that technology will be greatly reduced. Perhaps we will be
back to drawn ox carts (donkeys come to mind ;-). We shall see ...

Wake up! There has never been a time in the history of the Jewish
people like this before! In 2000 years of Exile, the last few years
have been the only time that Jews in every part of the globe are
free to follow the Judaism of their ancestors.

huh ? When was this written. Even you Rabbis, you break down the Torah.
Who is following the laws of the Jubilee for example, it isn't possible
because Israel refuses to do the Torah. I saw videos of Orthodox Jews
being assaulted by police in the Zionist rebel State. Remember 'Germany,
home away from home' ? Don't get too excited, the exile is still going
on and may turn deadly - it likely will because Israel has given up.

Sure, there are still
those who cannot leave their place of exile, but compare this to the
horrible oppression of past times! As our sages put it, "There is no
difference between our world now and the times of Moshiach, except
for the oppression by the nations." The greatest oppression remaining
is that of the materialistic (un)consciousness of the modern world.

Not just oppression by 'the nations' should be overthrown, but also
opression by ignorance from within. That is in part you, Rabbis. You
need to clean up your Torah. You refused, therefore it seems there is no immediate chance on a Redemption, which you could have pushed through
with quite the force. You refused, and this may have signed a death
sentence for millions of Jewish people.

So who, pray tell, is stopping us?

Yes, what is stopping you from admitting you have made fraudulent law
about the 7th year debt cancellation, called the 'prosbul' and put a Sun
disk idol on the 2nd Temple, so that Hashem destroyed it and put you in
the still ongoing exile ? What is stopping you from returning to the
Torah ? Pride ? Money ? Stubbornness ? Herd effect ? Cowardice ?
Arrogance ? Unwillingness to deal with the sadness of admitting your
mistakes ? Life is too easy already ? You have a car to worry about ?
You can't believe you have been wrong ? You fear destabilization and unpredictable outcomes which may proof painful even deadly or
demoralizing ? You cannot allow the children to know that you have
erred, lest they be demoralized by it ? You don't want to go over your
entire library, and take out the wrongs ? You fear the debate with your collegues who won't agree ? You fear your funding being pulled by the
Rothshild crime family, once they know you no longer wish to serve the Plutocracy but want to return to Hashem and the laws of Moshe Rabbeinu ?
You fear your Zionist ruling class, what they might do if you get too
serious with the Torah ? It just gives you a head ache ? You are
uncertain, in doubt, confused, don't know what to do ? You fear creating another schism ? You just don't have the courage to stand with the truth ?

Moshe Rabbeinu, he saw two Egyptian guards abusing two "Israelites", and
he killed them, knowing that this would put the monstrous Egyptian
Empire against him, the very people he lived with, and lived well with.

Abraham did a similar thing, destroying the idols in the shop, right ?

Such are the people chosen by Hashem. What do you think about that ?
How do you compare yourselves to this standard.

Moshe Rabbeinu.
Abraham.

I just felt like writing their names again, because of their greatness.
Have a nice day.

--
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with a multi-facetted implementation plan. http://market.socialism.nl

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