I'm looking at a 1678 record, but I've seen later:
The record uses "singleman" and "singlewoman". I find these terms
excellently clear! When - and why - did the more obscure terms come into general use? (I can see "spinster" has some sort of romantic image of a
young woman spinning away [I don't know what batcheling might be!].)
On 15/10/2023 23:30, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
I'm looking at a 1678 record, but I've seen later:
The record uses "singleman" and "singlewoman". I find these terms >>excellently clear! When - and why - did the more obscure terms come
into general use? (I can see "spinster" has some sort of romantic
image of a young woman spinning away [I don't know what batcheling
might be!].)
Bachelor and Spinster are shown in Schedule C to the Civil Registration
Act of 1836, which probably fixed them as the approved terms for >registration, but they were almost certainly in use earlier.
According to occupations of mediaeval Londoners, a spinster was
originally a woman who spun raw wool into yarn, which isn't really a >surprise:
https://medievallondoners.ace.fordham.edu/occupations/
Bachelor has long meant a junior rank of some sort, but the etymology
seems to be uncertain.
On 16/10/2023 00:30, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
I'm looking at a 1678 record, but I've seen later:
The record uses "singleman" and "singlewoman". I find these terms >>excellently clear! When - and why - did the more obscure terms come
into general use? (I can see "spinster" has some sort of romantic
image of a young woman spinning away [I don't know what batcheling
might be!].)
see
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/where-did-spinster-and-bachelo >r-come-180964879/
which includes
The Oxford English Dictionary’s first recorded use of the word >“bachelor” to mean an unmarried man came around 1386, with Geoffrey >Chaucer. In one of the stories in The Canterbury Tales, the about >twenty-year-old squire is described as “a lover and lively bachelor” who >spends time chasing the ladies, partying and jousting, and who barely
sleeps.
On 16/10/2023 08:46, J. P. Gilliver wrote:[]
In message <ugil0v$1837k$1@dont-email.me> at Mon, 16 Oct 2023
08:25:36, john <john1@s145802280.onlinehome.fr> writes
[]see
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/where-did-spinster-and-bachelo >>> r-come-180964879/
[]Thanks - a most interesting article! (I hadn't known we'd officially >>dropped them in 2005.) The one thing now left missing is the etymology
of ba(t)chel{o|e}r; obviously, a spinster comes from "one who spins",
https://www.etymonline.com/word/bachelor
and worth checking the spinster entry >https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=spinster
On 16/10/2023 00:30, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
I'm looking at a 1678 record, but I've seen later:
The record uses "singleman" and "singlewoman". I find these terms
excellently clear! When - and why - did the more obscure terms come
into general use? (I can see "spinster" has some sort of romantic
image of a young woman spinning away [I don't know what batcheling
might be!].)
see https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/where-did-spinster-and-bachelor-come-180964879/
which includes
The Oxford English Dictionary’s first recorded use of the word “bachelor” to mean an unmarried man came around 1386, with Geoffrey Chaucer. In one of the stories in The Canterbury Tales, the about twenty-year-old squire is described as “a lover and lively bachelor” who spends time chasing the ladies, partying and jousting, and who barely
sleeps.
I'm looking at a 1678 record, but I've seen later:
The record uses "singleman" and "singlewoman". I find these terms
excellently clear! When - and why - did the more obscure terms come into general use? (I can see "spinster" has some sort of romantic image of a
young woman spinning away [I don't know what batcheling might be!].)
In message <ugiog0$18qjf$1@dont-email.me> at Mon, 16 Oct 2023r-come-180964879/
09:24:48, john <john1@s145802280.onlinehome.fr> writes
On 16/10/2023 08:46, J. P. Gilliver wrote:[]
In message <ugil0v$1837k$1@dont-email.me> at Mon, 16 Oct 2023
08:25:36, john <john1@s145802280.onlinehome.fr> writes
see
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/where-did-spinster-and-bachelo >>>>
[]
[]Thanks - a most interesting article! (I hadn't known we'd
officially dropped them in 2005.) The one thing now left missing
is the etymology of ba(t)chel{o|e}r; obviously, a spinster comes
from "one who spins",
https://www.etymonline.com/word/bachelor
Thanks. Agrees that it's "A word of uncertain origin." Does give some
suggestions.
and worth checking the spinster entry(Why the different URL form?) Agrees that its meaning clearly derives
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=spinster
from "one who spins [yarn, not just a rotating nitwit]". Interesting
discussion of whether -ster is specifically a feminine suffix
(giving examples of ones that aren't, like my "maltster" [I have some
in my ancestry]).
According to occupations of mediaeval Londoners, a spinster was
originally a woman who spun raw wool into yarn, which isn't really a surprise:
I occasionally find "spinster" and "singlewoman" both used in the same
set of parish records, particularly marriages. I've worked out that "singlewoman" applied to a woman who had already had an illegitimate
child. (Mainly 18th century, my data is all Bedfordshire.)
On 16/10/2023 09:39, J. P. Gilliver wrote:r-come-180964879/
In message <ugiog0$18qjf$1@dont-email.me> at Mon, 16 Oct 2023
09:24:48, john <john1@s145802280.onlinehome.fr> writes
On 16/10/2023 08:46, J. P. Gilliver wrote:[]
In message <ugil0v$1837k$1@dont-email.me> at Mon, 16 Oct 2023
08:25:36, john <john1@s145802280.onlinehome.fr> writes
see
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/where-did-spinster-and-bachelo >>>>>
[]
[]Thanks - a most interesting article! (I hadn't known we'd
officially dropped them in 2005.) The one thing now left
missing is the etymology of ba(t)chel{o|e}r; obviously, a
spinster comes from "one who spins",
https://www.etymonline.com/word/bachelor
Thanks. Agrees that it's "A word of uncertain origin." Does give
some suggestions.
and worth checking the spinster entry(Why the different URL form?) Agrees that its meaning clearly
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=spinster
derives from "one who spins [yarn, not just a rotating nitwit]".
Interesting discussion of whether -ster is specifically a feminine
suffix (giving examples of ones that aren't, like my "maltster" [I
have some in my ancestry]).
The etymology is as good as you are likely to get!
The different URL is because I used the Search box on the bachelor
page.
If you use the same URL format as that for bachelor https://www.etymonline.com/word/spinster you get a different related
entries and that seemed more interesting, if I was giving one link
As an aside, the -ster entry under the https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=spinster seemed more interesting
Steven Gibbs wrote:
I occasionally find "spinster" and "singlewoman" both used in the
same set of parish records, particularly marriages. I've worked
out that "singlewoman" applied to a woman who had already had an
illegitimate child. (Mainly 18th century, my data is all
Bedfordshire.)
Example: "Informatur per famam that John Keye of Okenshay, esquier,
maried, is reported to have had divers children by Dorothie Savell, singlewoman, of Sutall Hall, and is now supposed to be with child by
him again."
Archbishop Gindall's visitation, 1575.
The final score was 7, more than his legitimate children. John Kaye
of Oakenshaw was deputy to Sir Henry Saville as Stweard of the Honor
of Pontefract and Dorothy was his daughter. Saville seems not to
have minded as he was not only divorced and remarried, Elizabeth
Soothill, Dorothy's mother being his 2nd wife, but he also had two illegitimate sons by his wife's maid, the surviving one of whom
became his eventual heir. Nevertheless it was Dorothy who seems to
have received condemnation.
I still wonder _why_ they imposed those terms to replace single
man/woman though, which is very clear! (OK, I suppose it removes the >ambiguity that a widow[er] is single, but I think widow/er were in use >earlier.)
On 15/10/2023 23:30, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
I'm looking at a 1678 record, but I've seen later:
The record uses "singleman" and "singlewoman". I find these terms
excellently clear! When - and why - did the more obscure terms come
into general use? (I can see "spinster" has some sort of romantic
image of a young woman spinning away [I don't know what batcheling
might be!].)
I occasionally find "spinster" and "singlewoman" both used in the same
set of parish records, particularly marriages. I've worked out that "singlewoman" applied to a woman who had already had an illegitimate
child. (Mainly 18th century, my data is all Bedfordshire.)
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