XPost: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.genealogy.ireland

Hans Vogels wrote:

Op maandag 15 januari 2024 om 18:21:19 UTC+1 schreef Ian Goddard:

Brotherly Lover wrote:

Since Google Groups' death warrant has been signed, I wonder whether the smart people who follow soc.genealogy.medieval have found a new hangout.

No, we just have the old one. Usenet
.
Read and understand this carefully:
You do not need Google Groups.

Hello Ian,

I understand the concern of the original poster as it touched my feeling aswell.
Ever since I first found SGM in 2003 I have used Google (or something before that) to follow and read SGM.
I connected it through a bookmark.
Being a Dutchman the name Usenet does not ring a bell or custom.

Can you explain a dummy how to connect to Usenet to get to SGM?

That's a good question. I'll cross-post it to other groups as there
will be others who want to know that.

You will need two things, a service provider (or server or feed) and a
Usenet client (or newsreader).

First the server.

One thing to know is that there isn't and never was some master news
server controlling the rest. No, Not even Google. The system started
with US university server operators arranging to link with each other, neighbour to neighbour by modem on phone line. This was even before
they had Internet or its predecessor, DARPANet let alone before Google existed*. They would connect at intervals and pass batches of files, including mail and news. to each other. News files were passed from
server to server so that a news item starting out on one server would
permeate to the rest. Once it became available the internet replaced
dial-up lines. All servers were equal except possibly in the variety of
groups they would support and the length of time they would retain
messages for their users to read. That is still the situation today - whichever one you choose has no more and no less status than any other.

Another thing to know is that the original news consised of text
messages. That's what the original servers handled. Eventually binary
news came into being. AFAICS they are largely used to shunt around
media files, very likely pirated or worse. Soc.genealogy groups are
still text only so there's no value in using a server which supports
binary groups. Text only is good enough and, given that binary files
are larger, text only groups are likely to be cheaper, even supported by donations only.

Nowadays if you go to a search engine for usenet servers the hits are
dominated by typical articles of the form /N best whatever of whenever/.
For Usenet server searches these lists seem to be on sites whose
garish decorations hint at their audiences; I think we can be sure
there's unlikely to be a text-only so where to look?

First try your ISP. It used to be fairly common, at least in the UK,
that a news feed would be included in the bundle. It's less common now
but my ISP, PlusNet still provides it so that's what I use. In the past
I've used Eternal September at www.eternal-september.org and
Individual.Net at news.individual.net The first is supported by
donations and the second by a subscription which, AFAICR was about a
tenner a year, probably Euro but maybe from the UK GBP but not
expensive. Perhaps other group members can add further recommendations.

Let me add that I have seen at least one service for accessing groups
via a web interface: Easynews. It's listed in Wikipedia's article on
internet newsreaders but I have no experience of it.

This is getting long enough for one post so I'll start writing a new one
for readers and connection. Your first step is to select a service and register.

* So where did Google enter? Once Usenet was on the internet a site
called Deja News was set up as an archive. It started as read-only but eventually made posting available. Soon after that Google bought it and
used it as a foundation for Google Groups. In my view the original Deja interface was better than what it became under Google.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.genealogy.ireland

Let's pick up with the client. This is a piece of software which you'll
have to install if you don't have it already. As a news-client is often
a component of email clients you might already have it installed in the
form of Thunderbird or some of the lesser known email clients. (I'm not
sure about Outlook but I doubt it will provide news. I'll look later.)

Wikipedia has a list of internet newsreaders. To repeat the point I
made in the previous post, binary groups are of no interest to us so
there's no advantage in selecting one which features binary capabilities.

Of the Commercial group I've seen Forté Agent recommended in posts in
the past but have no experience. In the FOSS selection SeaMonkey is
what I use. It's the continuation of the old Netscape as a combined
browser and mail/news/RSS client. It continued in development after
Firefox was split out as a stand-alone browser. Thunderbird was also
split out as a stand-alone email/news/rss client. SM and TB share a lot
of their code but recently TB has changed its user interface to a
tab-oriented version. Sylpheed and its successor Claws present the
classic Netscape interface so although I haven't looked at them my
expectation is that they'll be similar in setting up a news feed.

I'll leave you to select and install your own choice. You've already
signed up with a service as per my previous post, haven't you? If you
haven't we'll not get much further until you have.

The next section is a blow-by-blow account of setting up a newly
installed TBird.

Firstly it's rather pushy about setting up as an email client and when
first run displays a tab to set up an email address. I close all the
tabs to start fresh and then click on the cog wheel icon, next to the
bottom of the left hand column to go to the account settings tab.

Click on the Account Actions control in the second column and choose to
add a newsgroup account. This pops up a dialog to enter your name and
an email address which you'll have set up with your server. Enter these
and click Next.

The next dialog is to the server name. You'll have obtained this from
the service you registered with so enter it and click Next.

The next dialog is to enter how you want this to be shown in your list
of services. It defaults to the server name you just entered. it's
probably as good as any but if you want something different just change
it - it's just a label for your convenience and doesn't affect anything
else. Click Next to move on.

It will then display a summary of what you've just entered, check it
(oops, I mistyped the server name), go back and fix whatever needs
fixing and click on Finish when it's correct.

It will then go to a page showing what you've set up which you can still correct.

That page also contains an area for the outbound server. If you've
already set up TB for mail you'll have a default SMPT (email) server so
you can use that.

If this is a new TB installation you'll need to set up a server which
your chosen service provider will have provided. Click on Outbound
server in the second column and on the Outgoing Server page click Add.

In the next dialog provide your own description - something like "Usenet service" and add the information your service provider gave you and
click OK.

If you now close the tabs you'll find the second column has an entry for
your service - it's what I described above as "just a label". Right
click on this and select Subscribe form the pop-up menu.

If all has gone well it will pop up a dialog with a text box labelled
"Show items that contain" and start typing soc.genealogy.medieval (or
anything else if you wandered in here from some other newsgroup!). As
you type the list of newsgroups in the box below will become more ond
more focussed on what you want. Select the one you're interested in and
then click the Subscribe button to . It's probably easiest to choose
one group at a time. Click OK.

You should initially get a dialog box about the number of headers on the server. Currently mine, for s.g.medieval, stands at over 163,000.
There is an option to download all of them and another, preselected, to download the last N where N defaults to 500 but can be changed. Think
very carefully whether you want to download the full collection. If
you're moving over from GG you'll have seen recent messages. The last
500 will probably be more than enough so tick mark the reast as read and
click OK.

SeaMonkey and anything using the classic interface, including older
versions of TB goes through much the same process except that setup is
accessed via the Edit option on the main menu, taking the Mail &
Newsgroup settings from the dropdown menu. It beings up a new windown
with an Add Account button which throws up a dialog to select the type
of account to be added.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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XPost: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.genealogy.ireland

In message <IUCdnYIJhsJj8zv4nZ2dnZfqnPadnZ2d@brightview.co.uk> at Tue,
16 Jan 2024 11:56:45, Ian Goddard <ian_ng@austonley.org.uk> writes

Hans Vogels wrote:

[]

I connected it through a bookmark.
Being a Dutchman the name Usenet does not ring a bell or custom.
Can you explain a dummy how to connect to Usenet to get to SGM?

Yes, the term "usenet" isn't necessarily known even by many of those who
use it; they tend to talk about "news" or "newsgroups".
[]

You will need two things, a service provider (or server or feed) and a
Usenet client (or newsreader).

First the server.

[]

First try your ISP. It used to be fairly common, at least in the UK,
that a news feed would be included in the bundle. It's less common now
but my ISP, PlusNet still provides it so that's what I use. In the

Ditto ...

past I've used Eternal September at www.eternal-september.org and >Individual.Net at news.individual.net The first is supported by

... though I use E-S as a backup and for when I'm connecting other than
via a PlusNet connection (such as at friends' houses), as the PlusNet
news server won't talk to me then.

E-S is free (though donations are welcomed); I think it's entirely
text-only, which is fine for most genealogy purposes. NIN - alias "the
Berlin server", I think because it's at the university of Berlin, or at
least started there - was, indeed, only ten euros a year last I heard.

donations and the second by a subscription which, AFAICR was about a
tenner a year, probably Euro but maybe from the UK GBP but not
expensive. Perhaps other group members can add further recommendations.

Add at this point that more or less any server will carry many genealogy newsgroups, not just SGM (I'm reading this in SGB, for example).

Also note not to be worried if you come across the word "subscribe";
people often talk about "subscribing" to newsgroups, but all that means
is that you tell (via your client software) the server that you want to
take such-and-such a newsgroup - no money is involved (beyond the single
annual sub to the server if any), you can "subscribe" to as many 'groups
as you like.

"Client" means the software (or "newsreader") you use to access the news server. There are several free ones, some of them of considerable
antiquity! But they still work fine. (_Some_ of the older ones won't
work with _some_ news servers because they - the servers - implement a
new[ish] form of security; there are utilities - the best-known being
stunnel [free] - that work as "man in the middle" and implement this.
PlusNet and E-S do not require this.) Probably the best-known of the
very old clients is Agent (in full, Forte Free Agent).

Using a client, once you've set it up with the server(s) you've chosen,
is rather like using mail software; many in fact are combined mail/news softwares, which is handy if you want to send a personal reply to a
poster (assuming the poster has revealed a valid email address, which of
course many don't), rather than a followup to the 'group. (Doing so is
frowned upon if your reply is something that would be of general
interest to the 'group, but there are often situations where it's
appropriate.)

I'd probably recommend Thunderbird: not because it's the best newsreader (though it seems quite usable to me), but because (a) it's up-to-date
enough to not need stunnel, and (b) it's widely-enough used that you're probably more likely to find someone to help you with problems than some
of the others. Most news servers will have a TB-specific page telling
you how to set it up with them; I'm pretty sure E-S does, for example.
Plus, if by any chance you're already using TB for email, you'll already
be familiar with how it works, so won't have much new to learn.
[]
Once you get over the initial learning, you'll find using a ("proper" as
many of us say!) news client is far better than using Google Groups - certainly, those reading your posts will like your posts more.
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is too
dark to read." - Groucho Marx

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XPost: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.genealogy.ireland

In message <n4ScnSCzJurcEDv4nZ2dnZfqn_ednZ2d@brightview.co.uk> at Tue,
16 Jan 2024 14:05:53, Ian Goddard <ian_ng@austonley.org.uk> writes

Let's pick up with the client. This is a piece of software which
you'll have to install if you don't have it already. As a news-client
is often a component of email clients you might already have it
installed in the form of Thunderbird or some of the lesser known email >clients. (I'm not sure about Outlook but I doubt it will provide news.
I'll look later.)

There's Outlook, the fully-fledged email (and calendar, and lots else)
part of Office, and Outlook Express, Microsoft's news and email client
that used to be supplied as part of Windows - I think maybe up to XP.
Outlook did not do news, though (up to about 2000 I think) in some cases
(I used it at work) _appeared_ to, by using the Outlook Express
newsreader that was already on most Windows PCs. Outlook Express was
much criticised, but IMO was quite a reasonable mail and news client
(its main disadvantage, IMO, being that it encouraged top-posting, but
that's become the norm these days anyway). The executable file is IIRR
called msimn.exe (Microsoft integrated mail and news); if it runs on
your system at all (I don't know if it won't play with 64-bit Windows),
it may still be usable - it won't have the security capability some
servers may require, but stunnel (etc.) would cure that. But if you
haven't used a news client at all before, I'd probably not recommend it.

Wikipedia has a list of internet newsreaders. To repeat the point I
made in the previous post, binary groups are of no interest to us so
there's no advantage in selecting one which features binary capabilities.

(I thought of that as mainly a matter of _server_ choice; it hadn't
occurred to me that there might be newsreader _client_ softwares that
didn't do binaries. I wouldn't eliminate ones that do do binaries - you
don't have to _use_ that capability, and it might be useful in the
future.)

Of the Commercial group I've seen Forté Agent recommended in posts in
the past but have no experience. In the FOSS selection SeaMonkey is
what I use. It's the continuation of the old Netscape as a combined
browser and mail/news/RSS client. It continued in development after
Firefox was split out as a stand-alone browser. Thunderbird was also
split out as a stand-alone email/news/rss client. SM and TB share a
lot of their code but recently TB has changed its user interface to a >tab-oriented version. Sylpheed and its successor Claws present the
classic Netscape interface so although I haven't looked at them my >expectation is that they'll be similar in setting up a news feed.

I'll leave you to select and install your own choice. You've already
signed up with a service as per my previous post, haven't you? If you >haven't we'll not get much further until you have.

I think some servers terminate your account if inactive for a while; on
the whole the "while" is probably long enough for it not to be
important, but in view of the closing of GG, there are going to be a lot
of new signups, so I fear some of the server operators may - at least temporarily - shorten the inactivity timeout, for the next month or
three at least.

Arguably, it's a lot easier to set up access to a news server if you
have a news client software ready to enter things (mainly username and password) into. So it _might_ be better to select and install one first.
There are advantages both ways round.

The next section is a blow-by-blow account of setting up a newly
installed TBird.

[Snipped as it looks great and I haven't done one recently.]
[]

You should initially get a dialog box about the number of headers on
the server. Currently mine, for s.g.medieval, stands at over 163,000.
There is an option to download all of them and another, preselected, to >download the last N where N defaults to 500 but can be changed. Think
very carefully whether you want to download the full collection. If
you're moving over from GG you'll have seen recent messages. The last
500 will probably be more than enough so tick mark the reast as read
and click OK.

There will also be settings on whether it just shows you unread posts,
shows you all but puts unread in bold, whether it shows them as a list
or threaded, and many other features. Thunderbird also has the ability
to incorporate add-ons written by other people that give you various
features; many of these seem very desirable, but be wary (in particular,
you can come to rely on something that is really an add-on but you
forget that it is, and may or may not continue to work after a TB
update. Though you can always turn off TB updates [I think - you
certainly used to be able to]).
[]







--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is too
dark to read." - Groucho Marx

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XPost: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.genealogy.ireland

J. P. Gilliver wrote:

Yes, the term "usenet" isn't necessarily known even by many of those who
use it; they tend to talk about "news" or "newsgroups".

As you use PlusNet you'll probably be aware that it's really GigaNews
being resold by them. You'll probably also be aware that every couple
of years or so they seem to forget about each other and authentication
fails. When that happens those who haven't heard any of the terms
usually include the PlusNet helpdesk although they then manage to find
someone who has. :)

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XPost: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.genealogy.ireland

J. P. Gilliver wrote:

Outlook Express was much criticised, but IMO was quite a reasonable mail
and news client (its main disadvantage, IMO, being that it encouraged top-posting, but that's become the norm these days anyway)

Its encouragement of top-posting is probably responsible for it becoming
the norm in which case it has a lot to answer for. But its main
disadvantage from my PoV was that it didn't run on Linux. Or maybe that
was an advantage.

Ian

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XPost: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.genealogy.ireland

On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 11:56:45 +0000
Ian Goddard <ian_ng@austonley.org.uk> wrote:

Hans Vogels wrote:

Op maandag 15 januari 2024 om 18:21:19 UTC+1 schreef Ian Goddard:

Brotherly Lover wrote:

Since Google Groups' death warrant has been signed, I wonder
whether the smart people who follow soc.genealogy.medieval have
found a new hangout.

No, we just have the old one. Usenet
.
Read and understand this carefully:
You do not need Google Groups.

Hello Ian,

I understand the concern of the original poster as it touched my
feeling aswell. Ever since I first found SGM in 2003 I have used
Google (or something before that) to follow and read SGM. I
connected it through a bookmark. Being a Dutchman the name Usenet
does not ring a bell or custom.

Can you explain a dummy how to connect to Usenet to get to SGM?

That's a good question. I'll cross-post it to other groups as there
will be others who want to know that.

You will need two things, a service provider (or server or feed) and
a Usenet client (or newsreader).

First the server.

One thing to know is that there isn't and never was some master news
server controlling the rest. No, Not even Google. The system
started with US university server operators arranging to link with
each other, neighbour to neighbour by modem on phone line. This was
even before they had Internet or its predecessor, DARPANet let alone
before Google existed*. They would connect at intervals and pass
batches of files, including mail and news. to each other. News files
were passed from server to server so that a news item starting out on
one server would permeate to the rest. Once it became available the
internet replaced dial-up lines. All servers were equal except
possibly in the variety of groups they would support and the length
of time they would retain messages for their users to read. That is
still the situation today - whichever one you choose has no more and
no less status than any other.

Another thing to know is that the original news consised of text
messages. That's what the original servers handled. Eventually binary
news came into being. AFAICS they are largely used to shunt around
media files, very likely pirated or worse. Soc.genealogy groups are
still text only so there's no value in using a server which supports
binary groups. Text only is good enough and, given that binary files
are larger, text only groups are likely to be cheaper, even supported
by donations only.

Eternal September is a good option, though if you're used to using a
web interface then paying for Easynews might be the better option.

That said, I'm trying to find a half decent web based news client to
interface with my news server. I thought there were a few but they seem
few and far between and not updated.




--
End Of The Line BBS - Plano, TX
telnet endofthelinebbs.com 23

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XPost: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.genealogy.ireland

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XPost: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.genealogy.ireland

On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 14:05:53 +0000, Ian Goddard
<ian_ng@austonley.org.uk> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

Of the Commercial group I've seen Forté Agent recommended in posts in
the past but have no experience. In the FOSS selection SeaMonkey is

I use Forte Agent for a while. My version is dated 2002 and is still
working !

There were/is 2 versions : Free Agent and Forté Agent. Free Agent will
support only newsgroups and Forté Agent is also an email reader.

You can filter Usenet by the address or subject line but not by the
content but the new versions may (I don't know but be sure I should
give it a try !). Messages are kept on the computer so you can
archive them yourself.

My only problem is that I don't know if I can switch to a new version
and still keep my 10,000s perhaps 100,000s emails and usenet messages
I have !


Denis

--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/ French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/ Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

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XPost: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.genealogy.ireland

On 16/01/2024 15:30, Ian Goddard wrote:

Its encouragement of top-posting is probably responsible for it becoming
the norm in which case it has a lot to answer for.  But its main disadvantage from my PoV was that it didn't run on Linux.  Or maybe that
was an advantage.

At one time half the posts on USENET seemed to be people complaining
about others 'top posting'.

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XPost: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.genealogy.ireland

In message <uo6lmt$1j5ej$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 16 Jan 2024 14:33:49,
knuttle <keith_nuttle@yahoo.com> writes
[]

I use Thunderbird as I can subscribe to multiple newsgroups. If one
has problems I can easily switch to another.

[]
Did you mean news _servers_? (Many newsreader can use multiple
news_groups_; many can use multiple news_servers_ too, though may show
the same 'group when drawn from two or more servers in different ways.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder...

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XPost: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.genealogy.ireland

On 16 Jan 2024 in soc.genealogy.britain, Ian Goddard wrote:

I'm not sure about Outlook but I doubt it will provide news.

Outlook WILL NOT provide news. The mercifully end-of-lifed Outlook
Express used to. (Outlook and Outlook Express, in spite of the similarity
of names, never were the same program.)

Nice writeup, by the way.

--
Joe Makowiec
http://makowiec.org/
Email: http://makowiec.org/contact/?Joe
Usenet Improvement Project: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/

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XPost: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.genealogy.ireland

In message <XnsB0FC5BC9029BmakowiecatnycapdotrE@95.217.65.137> at Wed,
17 Jan 2024 14:01:20, Joe Makowiec <makowiec@invalid.invalid> writes

On 16 Jan 2024 in soc.genealogy.britain, Ian Goddard wrote:

I'm not sure about Outlook but I doubt it will provide news.

Outlook WILL NOT provide news. The mercifully end-of-lifed Outlook
Express used to. (Outlook and Outlook Express, in spite of the similarity
of names, never were the same program.)

Nice writeup, by the way.

Outlook, at least in the form I used it at work, _appeared_ to provide
news; I think it did so by using OE, which was on the machine anyway.
(We learnt not to mention news when talking to the - in-house, corporate
- helpdesk.)

OE wasn't as bad as many painted it - especially if used with
OE-quotefix, by IIRR Dominic Jain. (He also created an Outlook Quotefix,
which sadly stopped working with Outlook after some point - about 2000,
IIRR.)

Sorry, this is getting OT for genealogy. Back to original question - no,
this group (not sure which - this thread is now in three 'groups) will
stay where it is, just Google Groups will stop carrying it; it will
remain on the servers that were carrying it before - you'll just need to
sign up with a newsserver and install a newsreader to access it on them
(for reasons I've already given, I'd recommend Thunderbird - especially
if you're already using it for mail).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I'm too lazy to have a bigger ego. - James May, RT 2016/1/23-29

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XPost: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.genealogy.ireland

Denis Beauregard wrote:

On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 14:05:53 +0000, Ian Goddard
<ian_ng@austonley.org.uk> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

Of the Commercial group I've seen Forté Agent recommended in posts in
the past but have no experience. In the FOSS selection SeaMonkey is

I use Forte Agent for a while. My version is dated 2002 and is still
working !

There were/is 2 versions : Free Agent and Forté Agent. Free Agent will support only newsgroups and Forté Agent is also an email reader.

You can filter Usenet by the address or subject line but not by the
content but the new versions may (I don't know but be sure I should
give it a try !). Messages are kept on the computer so you can
archive them yourself.

My only problem is that I don't know if I can switch to a new version
and still keep my 10,000s perhaps 100,000s emails and usenet messages
I have !

Denis

They have a support page so you could ask them. But back everything up
before you update!

Ian

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XPost: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.genealogy.ireland

On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 16:56:53 +0000
Ian Goddard <ian_ng@austonley.org.uk> wrote:

Denis Beauregard wrote:

On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 14:05:53 +0000, Ian Goddard
<ian_ng@austonley.org.uk> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

Of the Commercial group I've seen Forté Agent recommended in posts
in the past but have no experience. In the FOSS selection
SeaMonkey is

I use Forte Agent for a while. My version is dated 2002 and is still working !

There were/is 2 versions : Free Agent and Forté Agent. Free Agent
will support only newsgroups and Forté Agent is also an email
reader.

You can filter Usenet by the address or subject line but not by the
content but the new versions may (I don't know but be sure I should
give it a try !). Messages are kept on the computer so you can
archive them yourself.

My only problem is that I don't know if I can switch to a new
version and still keep my 10,000s perhaps 100,000s emails and
usenet messages I have !

Denis

They have a support page so you could ask them. But back everything
up before you update!

Ian

Once you download an article from the server using most news readers,
they'll stay on your computer. Most of these were created in the time
of dialup, you would download a list of newsgroups. Disconnect. Select
all the groups you are interested in, connect, and download headers.
You can then choose messages to download based on the header, or you
can download all messages in a group. these days you might as well grab
all the articles in a group. I think Free Agent is still only valid for
30 days before you have to buy a copy. There are free options like PAM, Claws-mail and a few others but Free Agent or Agent are worth the money
if you're a serious usenet user.



--
End Of The Line BBS - Plano, TX
telnet endofthelinebbs.com 23

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XPost: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.genealogy.ireland

In message <20240119183120.26a4f05b@wibble.sysadmininc.com> at Fri, 19
Jan 2024 18:31:20, Nigel Reed <sysop@endofthelinebbs.com> writes
[]

Once you download an article from the server using most news readers,
they'll stay on your computer. Most of these were created in the time

Yes and no. Several newsreaders implement "expiry", same as the news
servers - i. e. they discard posts a predefined time after downloading
(or over a defined age based on the posting date); most (I think all)
allow you to mark a post as "keep", i. e. to be kept not expired. The
one I use allows me to set expiry per 'group.

of dialup, you would download a list of newsgroups. Disconnect. Select
all the groups you are interested in, connect, and download headers.

I think downloading the list of 'groups available isn't done every
connect, but only from time to time. Some - I think earlier versions of Thunderbird were like this - you had to manually trigger it to get a new
list, which usually came to light when someone posted that they couldn't
see a certain 'group, at which point others reminded them to ask for a
new list. I think some server/client combinations had a way of finding
out which new groups had been added recently (it's coming back to me: I
now remember using one where it told me of each new 'group, and asked me
if I wanted to take it. Became impractical when huge numbers of 'groups
were being added, but would work again nowadays).

You can then choose messages to download based on the header, or you
can download all messages in a group. these days you might as well grab

Some newsreader clients could download headers only or headers and
bodies; the one I use lets me choose that on a per 'group basis. It was
mainly to cut down on online time and storage; nowadays, as Nigel says,
I can't see any advantage in a header-only approach.

all the articles in a group. I think Free Agent is still only valid for
30 days before you have to buy a copy. There are free options like PAM, >Claws-mail and a few others but Free Agent or Agent are worth the money
if you're a serious usenet user.

I'm pretty certain Free Agent - some versions, anyway - operates
indefinitely, as a newsreader at least; Agent just offers more features
(might have been mail). Maybe Free Agent offers you full Agent features
for a short period then falls back.


--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

live your dash. ... On your tombstone, there's the date you're born and the date you die - and in between there's a dash. - a friend quoted by Dustin Hoffman in Radio Times, 5-11 January 2013

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XPost: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.genealogy.ireland

Nigel Reed wrote:

That said, I'm trying to find a half decent web based news client to interface with my news server. I thought there were a few but they seem
few and far between and not updated.

The protocol s for the web (HTTP) and news (NNTP) are very different.
It would be up to the server to choose one or the other and for the
first a web-browser is the appropriate client and for the second a
newsreader. I can't imagine how you'd provide an HTTP interface to and
NNTP server other than by some add-in to a web server providing a
translation layer.

Ian

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XPost: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.genealogy.ireland

J. P. Gilliver wrote:

Some newsreader clients could download headers only or headers and
bodies; the one I use lets me choose that on a per 'group basis. It was mainly to cut down on online time and storage; nowadays, as Nigel says,
I can't see any advantage in a header-only approach.

I doubt that anyone who has been using Google Groups will have been
saving message bodies anyway. Basically there are 3 approaches:

- download & save the whole post for which you need something like Forte

- download the whole, save headers only and reload the body if you want
to view it again later for which a combined email/newsreader such as Thunderbird will be satisfactory*

- read online, saving nothing without manual cut and paste for which
easyNews appears to be the solution

Different approaches for different user preferences.

Ian

* SeaMonkey, based on the same codebase and Thunderbird, had an option
on the Servers and storage dialog for saving messages but it seems to be
a common dialog used with mail configuration and the setting isn't
implemented for news. I'd have thought it would be possible to have
done so and may have been omitted for storage reasons. Perhaps it could
be restored if a feature request were to be made to the TB development team.

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XPost: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.genealogy.ireland

In message <SOScnTa9TczVdzb4nZ2dnZfqn_WdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk> at Sat,
20 Jan 2024 15:44:07, Ian Goddard <ian_ng@austonley.org.uk> writes

J. P. Gilliver wrote:

Some newsreader clients could download headers only or headers and
bodies; the one I use lets me choose that on a per 'group basis. It
was mainly to cut down on online time and storage; nowadays, as Nigel >>says, I can't see any advantage in a header-only approach.

I doubt that anyone who has been using Google Groups will have been
saving message bodies anyway. Basically there are 3 approaches:

I imagine any web-based interface like Google Groups doesn't save
anything on the user's machine, other than possibly MIDs. (Well, it does
as long as they keep the "webpage" open, but webpage contents aren't
normally thought of as "saved", though they're obviously on the user's
machine for him/her to read them.)
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

By the very definition of "news," we hear very little about the dominant threats to our lives, and the most about the rarest, including terror. "LibertyMcG" alias Brian P. McGlinchey, 2013-7-23

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XPost: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.genealogy.ireland

T24gMjAvMDEvMjAyNCAxNjo0NCwgSWFuIEdvZGRhcmQgd3JvdGU6DQo+IA0KPiAqIFNlYU1v bmtleSwgYmFzZWQgb24gdGhlIHNhbWUgY29kZWJhc2UgYW5kIFRodW5kZXJiaXJkLCBoYWQg YW4gb3B0aW9uIA0KPiBvbiB0aGUgU2VydmVycyBhbmQgc3RvcmFnZSBkaWFsb2cgZm9yIHNh dmluZyBtZXNzYWdlcyBidXQgaXQgc2VlbXMgdG8gYmUgDQo+IGEgY29tbW9uIGRpYWxvZyB1 c2VkIHdpdGggbWFpbCBjb25maWd1cmF0aW9uIGFuZCB0aGUgc2V0dGluZyBpc24ndCANCj4g aW1wbGVtZW50ZWQgZm9yIG5ld3MuwqAgSSdkIGhhdmUgdGhvdWdodCBpdCB3b3VsZCBiZSBw b3NzaWJsZSB0byBoYXZlIA0KPiBkb25lIHNvIGFuZCBtYXkgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIG9taXR0ZWQg Zm9yIHN0b3JhZ2UgcmVhc29ucy7CoCBQZXJoYXBzIGl0IGNvdWxkIA0KPiBiZSByZXN0b3Jl ZCBpZiBhIGZlYXR1cmUgcmVxdWVzdCB3ZXJlIHRvIGJlIG1hZGUgdG8gdGhlIFRCIGRldmVs b3BtZW50IA0KPiB0ZWFtLg0KDQpUaGUgSW1wb3J0RXhwb3J0VG9vbHNORyBleHRlbnNpb24g Zm9yIFRodW5kZXJiaXJkIGhhcyB0aGUgb3B0aW9uIHRvIA0KZXhwb3J0IHNlbGVjdGVkIG5l d3Nncm91cCBtZXNzYWdlcyBpbiBzZXZlcmFsIGRpZmZlcmVudCBmb3JtYXRzOyBzb21lIG9m IA0Kd2hpY2ggKG1ib3gsIEVNTCkgY2FuIGJlIGltcG9ydGVkLg0KVGhlIEltcG9ydEV4cG9y dFRvb2xzIGV4dGVuc2lvbiB3b3JrcyB3aXRoIFNlYU1vbmtleQ0KDQpJdCBpcyBwb3NzaWJs ZSB0byBmb3J3YXJkIG5ld3Nncm91cCBtZXNzYWdlcyB0byBhbiBlLW1haWwgYWRkcmVzcw0K DQpodHRwczovL25hcmtpdmUuY29tIGlzIGEgbmV3c2dyb3VwIGFyY2hpdmUgKHN0YXJ0aW5n IGZyb20gbGF0ZSAyMDA5KQ0K

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XPost: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.genealogy.ireland

On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 07:30:18 +0000
"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

In message <20240119183120.26a4f05b@wibble.sysadmininc.com> at Fri,
19 Jan 2024 18:31:20, Nigel Reed <sysop@endofthelinebbs.com> writes
[]

Once you download an article from the server using most news readers, >they'll stay on your computer. Most of these were created in the
time

Yes and no. Several newsreaders implement "expiry", same as the news
servers - i. e. they discard posts a predefined time after
downloading (or over a defined age based on the posting date); most
(I think all) allow you to mark a post as "keep", i. e. to be kept
not expired. The one I use allows me to set expiry per 'group.

While most newsreaders can expire articles, I'm pretty sure you can
configure them not to if you wish.

of dialup, you would download a list of newsgroups. Disconnect.
Select all the groups you are interested in, connect, and download
headers.

I think downloading the list of 'groups available isn't done every
connect, but only from time to time. Some - I think earlier versions
of Thunderbird were like this - you had to manually trigger it to get
a new list, which usually came to light when someone posted that they couldn't see a certain 'group, at which point others reminded them to
ask for a new list. I think some server/client combinations had a way
of finding out which new groups had been added recently (it's coming
back to me: I now remember using one where it told me of each new
'group, and asked me if I wanted to take it. Became impractical when
huge numbers of 'groups were being added, but would work again
nowadays).

You can use NEWGROUPS and it will fetch a list of new newsgroup since a
given date. Most newsreaders will keep a note internally of the last
newsgroup or newgroups fetch.

You can then choose messages to download based on the header, or you
can download all messages in a group. these days you might as well
grab

Some newsreader clients could download headers only or headers and
bodies; the one I use lets me choose that on a per 'group basis. It
was mainly to cut down on online time and storage; nowadays, as Nigel
says, I can't see any advantage in a header-only approach.

Yeah, it was just dialup users who would take advantage of that. These
days the amount of time to download news is negligible.

all the articles in a group. I think Free Agent is still only valid
for 30 days before you have to buy a copy. There are free options
like PAM, Claws-mail and a few others but Free Agent or Agent are
worth the money if you're a serious usenet user.

I'm pretty certain Free Agent - some versions, anyway - operates indefinitely, as a newsreader at least; Agent just offers more
features (might have been mail). Maybe Free Agent offers you full
Agent features for a short period then falls back.

I think you have to go back a long long way to get a version that works
without expiry, or maybe even the old versions did and left you with a
limited but useful client.

I finally convinced a fellow sysop to work on a usenet client for the
BBS that'll have a limited but useful set of features for accessing
newsgroups. Web access is still a bit of a mystery, unfortunately.




--
End Of The Line BBS - Plano, TX
telnet endofthelinebbs.com 23

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XPost: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.genealogy.ireland

On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 18:21:21 +0000
"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

In message <SOScnTa9TczVdzb4nZ2dnZfqn_WdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk> at
Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:44:07, Ian Goddard <ian_ng@austonley.org.uk>
writes

J. P. Gilliver wrote:

Some newsreader clients could download headers only or headers and >>bodies; the one I use lets me choose that on a per 'group basis. It
was mainly to cut down on online time and storage; nowadays, as
Nigel says, I can't see any advantage in a header-only approach.

I doubt that anyone who has been using Google Groups will have been
saving message bodies anyway. Basically there are 3 approaches:

I imagine any web-based interface like Google Groups doesn't save
anything on the user's machine, other than possibly MIDs. (Well, it
does as long as they keep the "webpage" open, but webpage contents
aren't normally thought of as "saved", though they're obviously on
the user's machine for him/her to read them.)
[]

This is one downside to using a web interface. There's no real way to
keep what you've seen unless you save the webpage and all it's
wonderful HTML junk as well.

--
End Of The Line BBS - Plano, TX
telnet endofthelinebbs.com 23

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XPost: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.genealogy.ireland

In message <20240121041126.75987620@wibble.sysadmininc.com> at Sun, 21
Jan 2024 04:11:26, Nigel Reed <sysop@endofthelinebbs.com> writes

On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 18:21:21 +0000
"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

[]

I imagine any web-based interface like Google Groups doesn't save
anything on the user's machine, other than possibly MIDs. (Well, it
does as long as they keep the "webpage" open, but webpage contents
aren't normally thought of as "saved", though they're obviously on
the user's machine for him/her to read them.)
[]

This is one downside to using a web interface. There's no real way to
keep what you've seen unless you save the webpage and all it's
wonderful HTML junk as well.

Browsers used to have an option to save as just text; the Chrome I have
(last version that works with W7) no longer has that option. I've just
checked and Firefox (still being updated, I think; I certainly let it
"up"grade itself recently) still does have that option. Not that it's
anywhere near ideal - you'd still get all the framing junk - but at
least (I hope) it'd remove the HTML tags. But a non-web client is of
course far superior.

What to use if you're out with only a 'phone, though, I don't know:
apparently newstap works on an iPad, but I don't know how easy it'd be
to use on a iPhone.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"This situation absolutely requires a really futile and stoopid gesture be done on somebody's part." "We're just the guys to do it." Eric "Otter" Stratton (Tim Matheson) and John "Bluto" Blutarsky (John Belushi) - N. L's Animal House (1978)

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XPost: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.genealogy.ireland

In message <20240121041015.4f6d1a15@wibble.sysadmininc.com> at Sun, 21
Jan 2024 04:10:15, Nigel Reed <sysop@endofthelinebbs.com> writes

On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 07:30:18 +0000
"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

In message <20240119183120.26a4f05b@wibble.sysadmininc.com> at Fri,
19 Jan 2024 18:31:20, Nigel Reed <sysop@endofthelinebbs.com> writes
[]

Once you download an article from the server using most news readers,
they'll stay on your computer. Most of these were created in the
time

Yes and no. Several newsreaders implement "expiry", same as the news
servers - i. e. they discard posts a predefined time after
downloading (or over a defined age based on the posting date); most
(I think all) allow you to mark a post as "keep", i. e. to be kept
not expired. The one I use allows me to set expiry per 'group.

While most newsreaders can expire articles, I'm pretty sure you can
configure them not to if you wish.

I get the impression from what I've seen discussed recently (meaning in
the last decade or two!), that _not_ expiring is the default setting. Personally, I like expiry (as long as I have the option to mark a post
"keep"): not from a storage capacity viewpoint, but just that I find it
easier to find "kept" articles - lots of old ones would just clutter
things up. But, everyone's mileage will vary, as they say (originally in
USA).
[]

You can use NEWGROUPS and it will fetch a list of new newsgroup since a
given date. Most newsreaders will keep a note internally of the last >newsgroup or newgroups fetch.

Makes sense.

You can then choose messages to download based on the header, or you
can download all messages in a group. these days you might as well
grab

Some newsreader clients could download headers only or headers and
bodies; the one I use lets me choose that on a per 'group basis. It
was mainly to cut down on online time and storage; nowadays, as Nigel
says, I can't see any advantage in a header-only approach.

Yeah, it was just dialup users who would take advantage of that. These
days the amount of time to download news is negligible.

I suppose if you take binary 'groups, it - and/or the storage capacity requirements - might not, but most things that used to be distributed
that way (mostly pirated videos and software, I think!) are available by
more efficient means.

all the articles in a group. I think Free Agent is still only valid
for 30 days before you have to buy a copy. There are free options
like PAM, Claws-mail and a few others but Free Agent or Agent are
worth the money if you're a serious usenet user.

I'm pretty certain Free Agent - some versions, anyway - operates
indefinitely, as a newsreader at least; Agent just offers more
features (might have been mail). Maybe Free Agent offers you full
Agent features for a short period then falls back.

I think you have to go back a long long way to get a version that works >without expiry, or maybe even the old versions did and left you with a >limited but useful client.

Ah, you're probably right. When I was paying attention to what others
were using, I got the strong impression that Free Agent as a newsreader
lasted indefinitely, though paying for Agent got you something extra (I
forget what). But that was probably decades ago! (I didn't realise Agent
or Free Agent were still being updated; I thought they froze ages ago.)

I finally convinced a fellow sysop to work on a usenet client for the
BBS that'll have a limited but useful set of features for accessing >newsgroups. Web access is still a bit of a mystery, unfortunately.

Ray who runs eternal-september is working on a web interface. Is that
the person you mean? Though I still think a proper client is a better
way to access news. But I do take the point that - unless a proper
client exists for 'phones - it doesn't help you if you're out with only
a 'phone. (Though I can't think of many times when I'd need that rapid
access to usenet.)



--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"This situation absolutely requires a really futile and stoopid gesture be done on somebody's part." "We're just the guys to do it." Eric "Otter" Stratton (Tim Matheson) and John "Bluto" Blutarsky (John Belushi) - N. L's Animal House (1978)

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