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  • Re: Orgiva, daughter of Edward the Elder, in John of Wallingford's chro

    From Stewart Baldwin@21:1/5 to taf on Sat Jul 5 14:29:16 2025
    On 04/07/2025 5:52 am, taf wrote:

    . . .> And while I am at it, I think I owe Hudson an apology, as I
    now realize
    I had two researchers crossed in my head - it was Alf Smyth who I was thinking of that accepted the Ragnar Lothbrok traditions as authentic history.I don't know Hudson's view. He did still deserve being taken to
    task for cherry-picking the Wallingford chronicle.

    I find myself having similar opinions about the work of Benjamin Hudson
    and the late Alfred P. Smyth, both of whose work I occasionally admire
    but more often find questionable. Both have made some important
    original contributions to the early medieval history of northwestern
    Europe (for example, Smyth on the early Irish annals, Hudson on the often-retitled Chronicle of the kings of Alba / Old Scottish Chronicle),
    but there are too many times they have annoyed me with careless
    conclusions based on low quality sources or too little evidence.
    Hudson's book "Viking pirates and Christian princes. Dynasty, religion,
    and empire in the north Atlantic" was reviewed favorably by Jonathan
    Shepard in "The Journal of Ecclesiastical History" 59 (2008): 108-110,
    and negatively by Alex Woolf in "Early Medieval Europe" 14 (2006):
    515-517. This shows how different two reviews of the same book can be
    when the areas of specialization of the reviewers are very different.
    Shepard is a historian who specializes in the early medieval history of
    Russia, the Byzantine Empire, and the Caucasus (which I know because I
    looked it up on Wikipedia today). Alex Woolf is a historian who
    specializes in the early medieval history of Ireland, Britain, and
    Scandinavia (whose name as an author of a book or journal article will
    pretty much guarantee that I will read it if I can get a copy). Any
    guesses as to which reviewer was more familiar with the material? As
    for Shepard (with whom I am familiar only through this review), he might
    be a perfectly respectable historian in his own field of research, but I
    felt that some of the statements in his review were too quick to accept
    dubious conclusions by Hudson, suggesting that the reviewer had
    insufficient familiarity with research in the area. Although it has
    been years (decades?) since I read Hudson's book, Woolf's review fits
    well with my own memory of the reservations I had about the book.

    As an interesting side-note, Hudson's earlier book "Kings of Celtic
    Scotland" was reviewed quite harshly by Alfred P. Smyth in "The English Historical Review" 112 (1997): 426-427.

    Stewart Baldwin

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  • From miked@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jul 7 21:50:31 2025
    I found a ref to the daughter mentioned in ASC 926 in the Book of Hyde,
    an abbey outside Winchester where Alfred and Edward the Elder were later buried, until its complete destruction in the Dissolution by Henry VIII.
    This is often called the cartulary of Hyde and I initially confused it
    with the later Norman chronicle of Hyde which has recently been
    translated by Van Houts and Love [and called by them the Warenne
    chronicle]. The only edition I can find is on google books by Edward
    Edwards, pub 1866. This has a lot of royal Anglo-saxon charters and a
    lot of family details on each king. It seems that it was originally made
    at Hyde but when is unknown and the existing copy only dates from 1354.
    However as the last charter dates from ?1023, it seems likely that the originally compilation was made in the 11th century, at least prior to
    the great fire that destroyed the abbey in 1141. I believe there is a translation by Joseph Stevenson in his Church Historians series, vol 2
    pt2 [pub 1853-55], but as i havnt seen it, it might again be the Norman chronicle again!

    Liber Monasterii de Hyda XIV.4, p. 111 by Edward Edwards 1866 [my
    trans!]

    "That glorious Edward [the Elder] had 2 wives and 1 concubine. From the concubine Egwynna by name, he begat Athelstan who reigned after him, and
    Elfred and Edgytha, who married Siric king of the Northumbrians, who
    lies at Tamworth and is worshipped as a saint."

    Theres a lot more on the rest of Edwards family and Athelstans birth.

    Its quite clear [although not to Mr Hudson] that the daughter who was
    Sitric's wife was completely different to the 'Orgive' who married
    Charles the Simple and was the mother of Louis IV.

    sorry if this comes through more than once, server probs.

    mike

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