I wonder if this couple had any descendants?

[ca. Sept. 1788]

By special licence, at Clermont, the seat of the Rt. Hon. Earl Tyrconnel, Cha. Grimstead, esq. of Leatherhead, Surr. to Mifs Charlotte Walsh, you. da. of Ja. W. esq. of Redbourn.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Gentleman_s_Magazine/l6g2AQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=grimstead+redbourne&pg=PA835&printsec=frontcover

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 11:52:07 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

I wonder if this couple had any descendants?

[ca. Sept. 1788]

By special licence, at Clermont, the seat of the Rt. Hon. Earl Tyrconnel, Cha. Grimstead, esq. of Leatherhead, Surr. to Mifs Charlotte Walsh, you. da. of Ja. W. esq. of Redbourn.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Gentleman_s_Magazine/l6g2AQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=grimstead+redbourne&pg=PA835&printsec=frontcover

This marriage is also reported in two other sources catering to a similar audience:

https://books.google.com/books?id=znFkAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA503 https://books.google.com/books?id=RHYEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA495

I note that this book https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/439000?availability=Family%20History%20Library

calls Charles the brother of Joseph Valentine Grimstead, whom a lot of online genealogies show as married to Charlotte Walsh _in September 1788_. Something screwy here.

taf

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 11:52:07 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

I wonder if this couple had any descendants?

[ca. Sept. 1788]

By special licence, at Clermont, the seat of the Rt. Hon. Earl Tyrconnel, Cha. Grimstead, esq. of Leatherhead, Surr. to Mifs Charlotte Walsh, you. da. of Ja. W. esq. of Redbourn.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Gentleman_s_Magazine/l6g2AQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=grimstead+redbourne&pg=PA835&printsec=frontcover

The misidentification of Charlotte Walsh's husband as Charles, rather than Joseph Valentine, Grimstead is noted in an article by Edward J. Davies in The Genealogists' Magazine , 30:241-224, which also cites the erroneous entry in the Gentleman's Magazine.
The Davies article also cites an earlier article by Anthony Wagner [later Sir Anthony] in The Genealogists' Magazine, 9:7-13 which gives the (accurate) details of the marriage of Joseph Valentine Grimstead and Charlotte Walsh.

Of course Charlotte Walsh is a relatively recent ancestor (in the 5th generation, if I'm counting right) of QEII. And Charlotte's sister Mary Elizabeth was an ancestor of the Queen in the 6th generation. It was the Davies article above which first
corrected the parentage of Charlotte and thus identified that the two women were sisters.

So...it seems that the social journals of London at that time (e.g., Th e Genetleman's Magazine, and others) were passing around misinformation regarding the wedding. It sounds rather like some parts of the Internet today...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 6:50:52 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 11:08:22 PM UTC-4, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:

So...it seems that the social journals of London at that time (e.g., Th e Genetleman's
Magazine, and others) were passing around misinformation regarding the wedding.
It sounds rather like some parts of the Internet today...

It's odd they got it so repeatedly wrong, . . .

Perhaps, perhaps not. As suggested above, it was common practice for such b/m/d material to be shamelessly copied from one publication to another. Alternatively, the publications themselves could have been independent, but it could be that a single
correspondent submitted the information to all three publications. Either way, they could all derive from a single initial error.

taf

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 11:08:22 PM UTC-4, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:

On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 11:52:07 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

I wonder if this couple had any descendants?

[ca. Sept. 1788]

By special licence, at Clermont, the seat of the Rt. Hon. Earl Tyrconnel, Cha. Grimstead, esq. of Leatherhead, Surr. to Mifs Charlotte Walsh, you. da. of Ja. W. esq. of Redbourn.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Gentleman_s_Magazine/l6g2AQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=grimstead+redbourne&pg=PA835&printsec=frontcover

The misidentification of Charlotte Walsh's husband as Charles, rather than Joseph Valentine, Grimstead is noted in an article by Edward J. Davies in The Genealogists' Magazine , 30:241-224, which also cites the erroneous entry in the Gentleman's

Magazine. The Davies article also cites an earlier article by Anthony Wagner [later Sir Anthony] in The Genealogists' Magazine, 9:7-13 which gives the (accurate) details of the marriage of Joseph Valentine Grimstead and Charlotte Walsh.

Of course Charlotte Walsh is a relatively recent ancestor (in the 5th generation, if I'm counting right) of QEII. And Charlotte's sister Mary Elizabeth was an ancestor of the Queen in the 6th generation. It was the Davies article above which first

corrected the parentage of Charlotte and thus identified that the two women were sisters.

So...it seems that the social journals of London at that time (e.g., Th e Genetleman's Magazine, and others) were passing around misinformation regarding the wedding. It sounds rather like some parts of the Internet today...

It's odd they got it so repeatedly wrong, especially with the marriage being on the estate of the Earl of Tyrconnel (a brother of Almeria Carpenter, mistress of the HRH Duke of Gloucester).

Are the Walsh sisters the most recent commoner sibling ancestors of the Queen? They're about as far back in time as Edward, Duke of Kent, and Adolphus of Cambridge.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 10:12:35 AM UTC-4, taf wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 6:50:52 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 11:08:22 PM UTC-4, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:

So...it seems that the social journals of London at that time (e.g., Th e Genetleman's
Magazine, and others) were passing around misinformation regarding the wedding.
It sounds rather like some parts of the Internet today...

It's odd they got it so repeatedly wrong, . . .

Perhaps, perhaps not. As suggested above, it was common practice for such b/m/d material to be shamelessly copied from one publication to another. Alternatively, the publications themselves could have been independent, but it could be that a single

correspondent submitted the information to all three publications. Either way, they could all derive from a single initial error.

taf

True; American newspapers in the midwest even sometimes asked for it: "Belle Plaine papers will please copy" at the bottom of an obituary.

However, are we sure that Joseph Valentine's brother Charles wasn't the one who married Charlotte Walsh, while Jos. Valentine himself married another Charlotte ____.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 10:24:19 AM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 10:12:35 AM UTC-4, taf wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 6:50:52 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 11:08:22 PM UTC-4, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:

So...it seems that the social journals of London at that time (e.g., Th e Genetleman's
Magazine, and others) were passing around misinformation regarding the wedding.
It sounds rather like some parts of the Internet today...

It's odd they got it so repeatedly wrong, . . .

Perhaps, perhaps not. As suggested above, it was common practice for such b/m/d material to be shamelessly copied from one publication to another. Alternatively, the publications themselves could have been independent, but it could be that a single

correspondent submitted the information to all three publications. Either way, they could all derive from a single initial error.

taf

True; American newspapers in the midwest even sometimes asked for it: "Belle Plaine papers will please copy" at the bottom of an obituary.

However, are we sure that Joseph Valentine's brother Charles wasn't the one who married Charlotte Walsh, while Jos. Valentine himself married another Charlotte ____.

Here is a much more detailed account:

"Charles Grimstead, esq. of Leatherhead, Surrey, to Mifs Charlotte Walsh, youngeft daughter of John Walsh, esq. of Redburn, Herts. The Duke of York honoured the ceremony with his presence, and afterwards gave an elegant dinner to the new-married couple,
the Countess of Tyrconnel, and a select party at Oatlands."

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_European_Magazine_and_London_Review/PSMoAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22charles+grimstead%22&pg=PA230&printsec=frontcover

So, that's four accounts saying it was Charles who married Mifs Charlotte Walsh. Although they appear to have gotten the bride's father's name right -- John Walsh of Redbourne.

And was it at Oatlands or Clermont?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 7:24:19 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

True; American newspapers in the midwest even sometimes asked for it: "Belle Plaine
papers will please copy" at the bottom of an obituary.

Not just in the midwest. In the eighteenth century, before such requests were common, you can see obituaries, shipping news, and other items propagating throughout the country's newspapers like a virus, first showing up in the most relevant paper, then
the nearest city, then other major cities and finally those in smaller towns. Because of the curiosity factor, one of my step-ancestors born leap-day 1760 had an item reporting 25th birthday in 1860 copied in one paper after another for months.

However, are we sure that Joseph Valentine's brother Charles wasn't the one who married
Charlotte Walsh, while Jos. Valentine himself married another Charlotte ____.

I would presume the identity of the spouse is made clear in the cited Gen Mag article(s), which I have not pursued. For that matter, I don't even know there WAS a Charles as opposed to it all being due to this error.

taf

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 10:45:47 AM UTC-4, taf wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 7:24:19 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

True; American newspapers in the midwest even sometimes asked for it: "Belle Plaine
papers will please copy" at the bottom of an obituary.

Not just in the midwest. In the eighteenth century, before such requests were common, you can see obituaries, shipping news, and other items propagating throughout the country's newspapers like a virus, first showing up in the most relevant paper, then

the nearest city, then other major cities and finally those in smaller towns. Because of the curiosity factor, one of my step-ancestors born leap-day 1760 had an item reporting 25th birthday in 1860 copied in one paper after another for months.

However, are we sure that Joseph Valentine's brother Charles wasn't the one who married
Charlotte Walsh, while Jos. Valentine himself married another Charlotte ____.

I would presume the identity of the spouse is made clear in the cited Gen Mag article(s), which I have not pursued. For that matter, I don't even know there WAS a Charles as opposed to it all being due to this error.

taf

Oh true, I guess we're getting Charles "as a real person" from that genealogy of American families at the Family History Library.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 7:45:03 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

So, that's four accounts saying it was Charles who married Mifs Charlotte Walsh. Although
they appear to have gotten the bride's father's name right -- John Walsh of Redbourne.

Importantly, this account and the Gentleman's Magazine one each have unique information not in the other. This is not just copying, but could still be the work of a single confused correspondent (plus typesetting errors, e.g. 'Ja.' for 'Jo.' for the
father in GentMag).

And was it at Oatlands or Clermont?

Not mutually exclusive - Clermont is reported as the marriage location, Oatlands the 'reception'. The two are about 4 miles apart, 25 minutes in a carriage with decent roads.

taf

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 11:01:57 AM UTC-4, taf wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 7:45:03 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

So, that's four accounts saying it was Charles who married Mifs Charlotte Walsh. Although
they appear to have gotten the bride's father's name right -- John Walsh of Redbourne.

Importantly, this account and the Gentleman's Magazine one each have unique information not in the other. This is not just copying, but could still be the work of a single confused correspondent (plus typesetting errors, e.g. 'Ja.' for 'Jo.' for the

father in GentMag).

And was it at Oatlands or Clermont?

Not mutually exclusive - Clermont is reported as the marriage location, Oatlands the 'reception'. The two are about 4 miles apart, 25 minutes in a carriage with decent roads.

taf

Oh yeah, that works.

The American genealogy Todd linked to apparently cites Ernest William Ainley Walker, _Skrine of Warleigh in the County of Somerset, with Pedigrees: Being Some Materials for a Genealogical History of the Family of Skrine_ (Wessex Press, 1936), p. 166, for
information showing that Joseph Valentine's father was a Thomas Grimstead, born ca. 1725, died ca. 1780, who married Eleanor (? Hatch) and had two sons Joseph Valentine and Charles, with Joseph's wife's name not given (but three children mentioned) and
Charles's wife listed as Charlotte Walsh of Redbourne. Walker (? Ainley Walker) was aware of the connection to Bowes-Lyon, etc..

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 11:45:47 AM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 11:16:00 AM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 11:01:57 AM UTC-4, taf wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 7:45:03 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

So, that's four accounts saying it was Charles who married Mifs Charlotte Walsh. Although
they appear to have gotten the bride's father's name right -- John Walsh of Redbourne.

Importantly, this account and the Gentleman's Magazine one each have unique information not in the other. This is not just copying, but could still be the work of a single confused correspondent (plus typesetting errors, e.g. 'Ja.' for 'Jo.' for

the father in GentMag).

And was it at Oatlands or Clermont?

Not mutually exclusive - Clermont is reported as the marriage location, Oatlands the 'reception'. The two are about 4 miles apart, 25 minutes in a carriage with decent roads.

taf

Oh yeah, that works.

The American genealogy Todd linked to apparently cites Ernest William Ainley Walker, _Skrine of Warleigh in the County of Somerset, with Pedigrees: Being Some Materials for a Genealogical History of the Family of Skrine_ (Wessex Press, 1936), p. 166,

for information showing that Joseph Valentine's father was a Thomas Grimstead, born ca. 1725, died ca. 1780, who married Eleanor (? Hatch) and had two sons Joseph Valentine and Charles, with Joseph's wife's name not given (but three children mentioned)
and Charles's wife listed as Charlotte Walsh of Redbourne. Walker (? Ainley Walker) was aware of the connection to Bowes-Lyon, etc..

Is this reference specifically dating the marriage to 2 Sept. 1788? https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433081671756&view=1up&seq=588&skin=2021&q1=grimstead

A Joseph Valentine Grinstead was a plaintiff in "Aberdeen v. Watkin" of 1828-30.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10858181

Maybe that was a son?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 11:16:00 AM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 11:01:57 AM UTC-4, taf wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 7:45:03 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

So, that's four accounts saying it was Charles who married Mifs Charlotte Walsh. Although
they appear to have gotten the bride's father's name right -- John Walsh of Redbourne.

Importantly, this account and the Gentleman's Magazine one each have unique information not in the other. This is not just copying, but could still be the work of a single confused correspondent (plus typesetting errors, e.g. 'Ja.' for 'Jo.' for the

father in GentMag).

And was it at Oatlands or Clermont?

Not mutually exclusive - Clermont is reported as the marriage location, Oatlands the 'reception'. The two are about 4 miles apart, 25 minutes in a carriage with decent roads.

taf

Oh yeah, that works.

The American genealogy Todd linked to apparently cites Ernest William Ainley Walker, _Skrine of Warleigh in the County of Somerset, with Pedigrees: Being Some Materials for a Genealogical History of the Family of Skrine_ (Wessex Press, 1936), p. 166,

for information showing that Joseph Valentine's father was a Thomas Grimstead, born ca. 1725, died ca. 1780, who married Eleanor (? Hatch) and had two sons Joseph Valentine and Charles, with Joseph's wife's name not given (but three children mentioned)
and Charles's wife listed as Charlotte Walsh of Redbourne. Walker (? Ainley Walker) was aware of the connection to Bowes-Lyon, etc..

Is this reference specifically dating the marriage to 2 Sept. 1788? https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433081671756&view=1up&seq=588&skin=2021&q1=grimstead

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 8:45:47 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

Is this reference specifically dating the marriage to 2 Sept. 1788?

seems to be

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 12:14:01 PM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 11:45:47 AM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 11:16:00 AM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 11:01:57 AM UTC-4, taf wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 7:45:03 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

So, that's four accounts saying it was Charles who married Mifs Charlotte Walsh. Although
they appear to have gotten the bride's father's name right -- John Walsh of Redbourne.

Importantly, this account and the Gentleman's Magazine one each have unique information not in the other. This is not just copying, but could still be the work of a single confused correspondent (plus typesetting errors, e.g. 'Ja.' for 'Jo.' for

the father in GentMag).

And was it at Oatlands or Clermont?

Not mutually exclusive - Clermont is reported as the marriage location, Oatlands the 'reception'. The two are about 4 miles apart, 25 minutes in a carriage with decent roads.

taf

Oh yeah, that works.

The American genealogy Todd linked to apparently cites Ernest William Ainley Walker, _Skrine of Warleigh in the County of Somerset, with Pedigrees: Being Some Materials for a Genealogical History of the Family of Skrine_ (Wessex Press, 1936), p.

166, for information showing that Joseph Valentine's father was a Thomas Grimstead, born ca. 1725, died ca. 1780, who married Eleanor (? Hatch) and had two sons Joseph Valentine and Charles, with Joseph's wife's name not given (but three children
mentioned) and Charles's wife listed as Charlotte Walsh of Redbourne. Walker (? Ainley Walker) was aware of the connection to Bowes-Lyon, etc..

Is this reference specifically dating the marriage to 2 Sept. 1788? https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433081671756&view=1up&seq=588&skin=2021&q1=grimstead

A Joseph Valentine Grinstead was a plaintiff in "Aberdeen v. Watkin" of 1828-30.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10858181

Maybe that was a son?

The second Joseph Valentine Grimstead died in 1834 in the Fleet prison, where he was being held for contempt of court.

"Joseph Valentine Grimstead was involved in a noted bankruptcy case from 1821; he had advanced £60,000 to a firm of annuity brokers, but his claim of £47,000 from them was refused. The case ran until mid-1826. He subsquently refused to settle the debts
owing to his own creditors and he was confined in the Fleet Prison for contempt of Court, where he died in December 1834."

https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/edwards.htm

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 2:24:36 PM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 12:14:01 PM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 11:45:47 AM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 11:16:00 AM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 11:01:57 AM UTC-4, taf wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 7:45:03 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

So, that's four accounts saying it was Charles who married Mifs Charlotte Walsh. Although
they appear to have gotten the bride's father's name right -- John Walsh of Redbourne.

Importantly, this account and the Gentleman's Magazine one each have unique information not in the other. This is not just copying, but could still be the work of a single confused correspondent (plus typesetting errors, e.g. 'Ja.' for 'Jo.'

for the father in GentMag).

And was it at Oatlands or Clermont?

Not mutually exclusive - Clermont is reported as the marriage location, Oatlands the 'reception'. The two are about 4 miles apart, 25 minutes in a carriage with decent roads.

taf

Oh yeah, that works.

The American genealogy Todd linked to apparently cites Ernest William Ainley Walker, _Skrine of Warleigh in the County of Somerset, with Pedigrees: Being Some Materials for a Genealogical History of the Family of Skrine_ (Wessex Press, 1936), p.

166, for information showing that Joseph Valentine's father was a Thomas Grimstead, born ca. 1725, died ca. 1780, who married Eleanor (? Hatch) and had two sons Joseph Valentine and Charles, with Joseph's wife's name not given (but three children
mentioned) and Charles's wife listed as Charlotte Walsh of Redbourne. Walker (? Ainley Walker) was aware of the connection to Bowes-Lyon, etc..

Is this reference specifically dating the marriage to 2 Sept. 1788? https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433081671756&view=1up&seq=588&skin=2021&q1=grimstead

A Joseph Valentine Grinstead was a plaintiff in "Aberdeen v. Watkin" of 1828-30.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10858181

Maybe that was a son?

The second Joseph Valentine Grimstead died in 1834 in the Fleet prison, where he was being held for contempt of court.

"Joseph Valentine Grimstead was involved in a noted bankruptcy case from 1821; he had advanced £60,000 to a firm of annuity brokers, but his claim of £47,000 from them was refused. The case ran until mid-1826. He subsquently refused to settle the

debts owing to his own creditors and he was confined in the Fleet Prison for contempt of Court, where he died in December 1834."

https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/edwards.htm

Oh no, I guess they are saying the one who died in the Fleet was actually the father, not brother, of Lady Glamis. Perhaps there's some confusion here as well.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 11:33:19 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 2:24:36 PM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 12:14:01 PM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 11:45:47 AM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 11:16:00 AM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 11:01:57 AM UTC-4, taf wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 7:45:03 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

So, that's four accounts saying it was Charles who married Mifs Charlotte Walsh. Although
they appear to have gotten the bride's father's name right -- John Walsh of Redbourne.

Importantly, this account and the Gentleman's Magazine one each have unique information not in the other. This is not just copying, but could still be the work of a single confused correspondent (plus typesetting errors, e.g. 'Ja.' for 'Jo.'

for the father in GentMag).

And was it at Oatlands or Clermont?

Not mutually exclusive - Clermont is reported as the marriage location, Oatlands the 'reception'. The two are about 4 miles apart, 25 minutes in a carriage with decent roads.

taf

Oh yeah, that works.

The American genealogy Todd linked to apparently cites Ernest William Ainley Walker, _Skrine of Warleigh in the County of Somerset, with Pedigrees: Being Some Materials for a Genealogical History of the Family of Skrine_ (Wessex Press, 1936), p.

166, for information showing that Joseph Valentine's father was a Thomas Grimstead, born ca. 1725, died ca. 1780, who married Eleanor (? Hatch) and had two sons Joseph Valentine and Charles, with Joseph's wife's name not given (but three children
mentioned) and Charles's wife listed as Charlotte Walsh of Redbourne. Walker (? Ainley Walker) was aware of the connection to Bowes-Lyon, etc..

Is this reference specifically dating the marriage to 2 Sept. 1788? https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433081671756&view=1up&seq=588&skin=2021&q1=grimstead

A Joseph Valentine Grinstead was a plaintiff in "Aberdeen v. Watkin" of 1828-30.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10858181

Maybe that was a son?

The second Joseph Valentine Grimstead died in 1834 in the Fleet prison, where he was being held for contempt of court.

"Joseph Valentine Grimstead was involved in a noted bankruptcy case from 1821; he had advanced £60,000 to a firm of annuity brokers, but his claim of £47,000 from them was refused. The case ran until mid-1826. He subsquently refused to settle the

debts owing to his own creditors and he was confined in the Fleet Prison for contempt of Court, where he died in December 1834."

https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/edwards.htm

Oh no, I guess they are saying the one who died in the Fleet was actually the father, not brother, of Lady Glamis. Perhaps there's some confusion here as well.

All these references to Joseph Valentine Grimstead appear to be to a single man - not father and son. The Davies article noted above mentions his financial difficulties and the fact that he died in the Flett Prison, where he was said to be "one of the
longest residents in the prison, and certainly one of its leading characters".

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 7:45:47 AM UTC-7, taf wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 7:24:19 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

True; American newspapers in the midwest even sometimes asked for it: "Belle Plaine
papers will please copy" at the bottom of an obituary.

Not just in the midwest. In the eighteenth century, before such requests were common, you can see obituaries, shipping news, and other items propagating throughout the country's newspapers like a virus, first showing up in the most relevant paper, then

the nearest city, then other major cities and finally those in smaller towns. Because of the curiosity factor, one of my step-ancestors born leap-day 1760 had an item reporting 25th birthday in 1860 copied in one paper after another for months.

However, are we sure that Joseph Valentine's brother Charles wasn't the one who married
Charlotte Walsh, while Jos. Valentine himself married another Charlotte ____.

I would presume the identity of the spouse is made clear in the cited Gen Mag article(s), which I have not pursued. For that matter, I don't even know there WAS a Charles as opposed to it all being due to this error.

taf

Yes, the Davies article does identify Charlotte Walsh's spouse as Joseph Valentine Grimstead, who is also mentioned as her spouse in the will of John Smith , cited in the same article. And the Wagner article (which I believe I've seen but can't
immediately locate in my files) also notes that the St. James's Magazine and the Gentleman's Magazine both got the name of the bridegroom wrong. The Davies article also cites other sources (including a parish register) which make it clear that Joseph
Valentine Grimstead was indeed the husband of Charlotte Walsh. I have no idea how the name Charles got into the picture.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 2:54:21 PM UTC-4, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 11:33:19 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 2:24:36 PM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 12:14:01 PM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 11:45:47 AM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 11:16:00 AM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 11:01:57 AM UTC-4, taf wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 7:45:03 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

So, that's four accounts saying it was Charles who married Mifs Charlotte Walsh. Although
they appear to have gotten the bride's father's name right -- John Walsh of Redbourne.

Importantly, this account and the Gentleman's Magazine one each have unique information not in the other. This is not just copying, but could still be the work of a single confused correspondent (plus typesetting errors, e.g. 'Ja.' for 'Jo.'

for the father in GentMag).

And was it at Oatlands or Clermont?

Not mutually exclusive - Clermont is reported as the marriage location, Oatlands the 'reception'. The two are about 4 miles apart, 25 minutes in a carriage with decent roads.

taf

Oh yeah, that works.

The American genealogy Todd linked to apparently cites Ernest William Ainley Walker, _Skrine of Warleigh in the County of Somerset, with Pedigrees: Being Some Materials for a Genealogical History of the Family of Skrine_ (Wessex Press, 1936),

p. 166, for information showing that Joseph Valentine's father was a Thomas Grimstead, born ca. 1725, died ca. 1780, who married Eleanor (? Hatch) and had two sons Joseph Valentine and Charles, with Joseph's wife's name not given (but three children
mentioned) and Charles's wife listed as Charlotte Walsh of Redbourne. Walker (? Ainley Walker) was aware of the connection to Bowes-Lyon, etc..

Is this reference specifically dating the marriage to 2 Sept. 1788? https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433081671756&view=1up&seq=588&skin=2021&q1=grimstead

A Joseph Valentine Grinstead was a plaintiff in "Aberdeen v. Watkin" of 1828-30.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10858181

Maybe that was a son?

The second Joseph Valentine Grimstead died in 1834 in the Fleet prison, where he was being held for contempt of court.

"Joseph Valentine Grimstead was involved in a noted bankruptcy case from 1821; he had advanced £60,000 to a firm of annuity brokers, but his claim of £47,000 from them was refused. The case ran until mid-1826. He subsquently refused to settle the

debts owing to his own creditors and he was confined in the Fleet Prison for contempt of Court, where he died in December 1834."

https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/edwards.htm

Oh no, I guess they are saying the one who died in the Fleet was actually the father, not brother, of Lady Glamis. Perhaps there's some confusion here as well.

All these references to Joseph Valentine Grimstead appear to be to a single man - not father and son. The Davies article noted above mentions his financial difficulties and the fact that he died in the Flett Prison, where he was said to be "one of the

longest residents in the prison, and certainly one of its leading characters".

Okay, could be true. The last article linked to says the speculated "protector" of this early "trans" actress Eliza Edwards might be Thomas Grimstead (1803–1884), son of Joseph Valentine Grimstead. But then they note, "The argument against this
interpretation, is that the letter from his father is signed "T. Grimstead", not "J. V. Grimstead" ..."

I suppose he could have signed "J. Grimstead," which was read as "T. Grimstead"?

This is giving me a headache.

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On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 12:27:32 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 6:50:52 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

Are the Walsh sisters the most recent commoner sibling ancestors of the Queen? They're about as far back in time as Edward, Duke of Kent, and Adolphus of Cambridge.

Yes, the Walsh sisters appear to be the most recent common SIBLING ancestors of the Queen.

For "common", read "commoner".

Charlotte Walsh is in the same generation of the Queen's ancestry as Edward, Duke of Kent. Adolphus, Duke of Cambridge is one generation closer to the Queen than Charlotte and Edward, while Mary Elizabeth Walsh is one generation further away from the
Queen than Charlotte and Edward.

Keep in mind that the Queen's shortest descent from King George III is through her grandmother Queen Mary - not through her grandfather King George V.

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On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 6:50:52 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

Are the Walsh sisters the most recent commoner sibling ancestors of the Queen? They're about as far back in time as Edward, Duke of Kent, and Adolphus of Cambridge.

Yes, the Walsh sisters appear to be the most recent common SIBLING ancestors of the Queen.

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On Tuesday, October 26, 20

And was it at Oatlands or Clermont?

2 Sep 1788
Esher, co Surrey (Batch M069713)

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There is a will for a Valentine Grimstead of Spital Square , Middlesex
dated 1809 in which he mentions his "nephew Joseph Valentine Grimstead"'

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https://eehe.org.uk/?p=25553


"His will drawn up at Ashtead, 16 February 1821, was supplemented with a codicil in The Fleet Prison on 8 December 1834 [SHCOL_181/19/11]. He was then close to death and is recorded to have been buried at St Bride’s, Fleet Street, on the following 22
December, aged 77 [Will proved 3 February 1835 – PROB 11/1842].

The relict, Charlotte, survived until 23 November 1848 before dying, at Redbourne, Herts, at the age of 81. Joseph Valentine Grimstead’s main claim to fame is that he was the late Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother’s great great grandfather."

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On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 5:01:57 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:

There is a will for a Valentine Grimstead of Spital Square , Middlesex
dated 1809 in which he mentions his "nephew Joseph Valentine Grimstead"'

In response to this, the name Valentine has been in the Grimstead family since as early as the 17th century (that is at least as early as I have found documented, it is still used in my family today), and I would have to check the documents I have, but
off the top of my head I am almost certain that Thomas Grimstead was Joseph Valentine's father, Thomas being Valentine's brother, and both Thomas and Valentine were the son of a Valentine Grimstead. So that should check out with Joseph Valentine being
Valentine's nephew.

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On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 2:52:07 PM UTC-4, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

I wonder if this couple had any descendants?

[ca. Sept. 1788]

By special licence, at Clermont, the seat of the Rt. Hon. Earl Tyrconnel, Cha. Grimstead, esq. of Leatherhead, Surr. to Mifs Charlotte Walsh, you. da. of Ja. W. esq. of Redbourn.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Gentleman_s_Magazine/l6g2AQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=grimstead+redbourne&pg=PA835&printsec=frontcover

I couldn't help but find this group while researching my family, and had to join so that I could reply. It was definitely Joseph Valentine Grimstead who married Charlotte Walsh, at least from the documents and archive records I have found pertaining to
both of them. He is my ancestor through his son William, and my grandmother is a Grimstead, the name Valentine is still in my family as well- as recently as it being my great aunt's middle name.

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On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 12:08:07 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:

I have no idea how the name Charles got into the picture.

We have at least two independent sources calling him Charles, even though his name was Joseph Valentine, and I while both could independnetly get the name wrong, it is unlikely they would alight on the same alternative by sheer coincidence. I have to
think this was indeed 'his name', some sort of schoolboy or family nickname of the quirkier sort arising through some atypical circumstance.

taf

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On Friday, November 26, 2021 at 10:38:06 AM UTC-8, taf wrote:

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 12:08:07 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:

I have no idea how the name Charles got into the picture.

We have at least two independent sources calling him Charles, even though his name was Joseph Valentine, and I while both could independnetly get the name wrong, it is unlikely they would alight on the same alternative by sheer coincidence. I have to

think this was indeed 'his name', some sort of schoolboy or family nickname of the quirkier sort arising through some atypical circumstance.

taf

I don't know that we can say that the two sources (St. James's Magazine and the Gentleman's Magazine) were necessarily "independent". They could have gotten the information (including the name "Charles") from the same source (which was simply wrong with
respect to the name). We just don't know - and "some sort of schoolboy or family nickname" seems pretty speculative. But any guess as to where the name "Charles" came from is in itself speculative.

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On Friday, November 26, 2021 at 11:59:02 AM UTC-8, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:

I don't know that we can say that the two sources (St. James's Magazine and the Gentleman's Magazine) were necessarily "independent".

I am not certain which one you are calling 'St. James's Magazine', but the accounts we have are:

1. Gentleman's magazine: "By special licence, at Clermont, the seat of the Rt. Hon. Earl Tyrconnel, Cha. Grimstead, esq. of Leatherhead, Surr. to Miss Charlotte Walsh, you. da. of Ja. W. of Redbourn."

2. The General Magazine: "By special licence, at Clermont, Charles Grimstead, Esq. to Miss Charlotte Walsh."

3. The Lady's Magazine: "Charles Grimstead, esq. of Leatherhead, Surrey, to Miss Charlotte Walsh of Redbourn, Herts.

4. The European Magazine: "Cha. Grimstead, esq., of Leatherhead, Surrey to Miss Charlotte Walsh, youngest daughter of John Walsh, esq. of Redburn, Herts. The Duke of York honoured the ceremony with his presence, and afterwards gave an elegant dinner to
the new-married couple, the Countess of Tyrconnel, and a select party, at Oatlands.

There is nothing in #2 not in #1 except for the county where Redbourn is located, which would have been common knowledge, and #3 could come from any of the other three, but the first and the last each have significant information not found in the other,
and give a different name for the bride's father. To me it requires a good bit of ad hoc speculation to come up with a scenario where these different very accounts would nonetheless be non-independent.

taf

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