We live in a world where there is a set of international rules for everybody and a different set of rules for Israel.malice and evil.
11. Thou Shall support Zion With Blind Faith Lest Leprosy Cover Thee.
It's the only explanation for the astonished outrage portrayed mostly in my country at the sudden attack of Hamas on Israel. It's as if nothing of the sort ever happened before. As if the attackers couldn't possibly be motivated by anything else than
Here is where history comes in handy and to the rescue by those who still care for truth and justice.point it.
The history of Palestine since the time the Turks let go of it, not later, or better still since the start of the twentieth century, and then people will be able to render an informed opinion. I am not saying what that opinion should be. Let history
It could not have happened to a nicer guy, Mr. Bibi, himself. He is going to show us now how much he hates Arabs by slaughtering lots, for protesting when Bibi robs them of more land. Oh well.didn't find an empty Palestine, which was 90% Arab, they just had to displace the current occupants in a variety of ways that ran the gamut. It's a process that has not ended. In 1948, the people who endowed themselves with the power to determine what's
Another like-Putin, who thought he would put a bow on his legacy with something hard-hitting before riding into the sunset. Can that Bibi too.
Two more anti-Lucius-Quinctius-Cincinnatus of history.
Not a rare kind.
But to go and take over a land that belonged to others mostly surreptitiously, in an slow motion invasion that puts our border troubles with Mexico to shame, is proving not a good plan. Migrants arrived relentlessly in the promised land, and as they
Having perpetrated such number of crimes against humanity, as Israel has done against Arabs, to secure a home... Does it make it a nice home, you think?there.
Crimes committed for religious motives as well, but is God grateful? How?
When not even Patriot missiles, upgraded to the max, can but mitigate but not stop a diluvium of explosives falling on your head, courtesy of the people you have fucked in the ass for more than 120 years and counting, then you have the answer right
Lovely home. Well done.
Zionists could have had Bavaria as the Jewish nation, back when, but it is no longer available.
On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 10:06:14 +1100, Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> wrote:than malice and evil.
On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 07:48:33 -0700 (PDT), Tiglath <temp6@tiglath.net>
wrote:
We live in a world where there is a set of international rules for everybody and a different set of rules for Israel.
11. Thou Shall support Zion With Blind Faith Lest Leprosy Cover Thee.
It's the only explanation for the astonished outrage portrayed mostly in my country at the sudden attack of Hamas on Israel. It's as if nothing of the sort ever happened before. As if the attackers couldn't possibly be motivated by anything else
No - Hamas has been shelling southern Israel for more than a decade -point it.
do you seriously expect no response at all? I'd be pleased if they
were to cut it out but Hamas really is dedicated to the complete
destruction of Israel and without allies they don't stand a ghost of a
chance in hell of success.
Here is where history comes in handy and to the rescue by those who still care for truth and justice.
The history of Palestine since the time the Turks let go of it, not later, or better still since the start of the twentieth century, and then people will be able to render an informed opinion. I am not saying what that opinion should be. Let history
Practically EVERY nation in either the Middle East or Europe has been >occupied by somebody else over the centuries - it's not like you see
Britain going to war for the return of Calais or Austria for South
Tyrol.
Plenty of people have ancestors of various family backgrounds; my
children have several more - and some of these have a long history of
warfare with each other. Most of these haven't fought since 1945. I'd
like to think it's because these countries have grown up (and counted
the cost) BUT...
It could not have happened to a nicer guy, Mr. Bibi, himself. He is going to show us now how much he hates Arabs by slaughtering lots, for protesting when Bibi robs them of more land. Oh well.
Another like-Putin, who thought he would put a bow on his legacy with something hard-hitting before riding into the sunset. Can that Bibi too.
Two more anti-Lucius-Quinctius-Cincinnatus of history.
Again I'm not a fan of either of these fine "gentlemen" but the whole
point of the Cincinnatus story is what he did AFTER he left office
which neither Putin or Bibi have done. THAT is why the US founding
fathers considered Washington 'the American Cincinnatus' - not what he
did 1756-1763 or 1776-1783.
Having perpetrated such number of crimes against humanity, as Israel has done against Arabs, to secure a home... Does it make it a nice home, you think?
Which specific crimes has Israel committed that the United States in
its first 150 years hadn't done even more so and first?
I've heard Patagonia is available, and cheap. And old Nazis just
further North.
My father having been born on Jan 30, 1933 (a somewhat important day
in German history - you can Google it if you're unsure why) makes it
easy to calculate how many 'Old Nazis' there might be left in either
Germany or Argentina.
Even if you include old Peronists as Nazis therre would be precious
few left if any.
On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 07:48:33 -0700 (PDT), Tiglath <temp6@tiglath.net>malice and evil.
wrote:
We live in a world where there is a set of international rules for everybody and a different set of rules for Israel.
11. Thou Shall support Zion With Blind Faith Lest Leprosy Cover Thee.
It's the only explanation for the astonished outrage portrayed mostly in my country at the sudden attack of Hamas on Israel. It's as if nothing of the sort ever happened before. As if the attackers couldn't possibly be motivated by anything else than
point it.Here is where history comes in handy and to the rescue by those who still care for truth and justice.
The history of Palestine since the time the Turks let go of it, not later, or better still since the start of the twentieth century, and then people will be able to render an informed opinion. I am not saying what that opinion should be. Let history
It could not have happened to a nicer guy, Mr. Bibi, himself. He is going to show us now how much he hates Arabs by slaughtering lots, for protesting when Bibi robs them of more land. Oh well.
Another like-Putin, who thought he would put a bow on his legacy with something hard-hitting before riding into the sunset. Can that Bibi too.
Two more anti-Lucius-Quinctius-Cincinnatus of history.
Having perpetrated such number of crimes against humanity, as Israel has done against Arabs, to secure a home... Does it make it a nice home, you think?
I've heard Patagonia is available, and cheap. And old Nazis just
further North.
Like the Holocaust survivors they would have kids, grand kids etc some >perpetuating the old causes. Hardly the ongoing zeal of the Jews, of
course.
The latest brawl in the M East will have all the old holocaust
newsreels dragged under our noses yet again. Sympathy fishing!
The emotive weepy speech by Biden a few hours ago was clearly drafted
bu the usual Wall St & Hollywood Zionists. And what about the
ongoing invasion of the West Bank that has triggered the latest push?
Was Obama the first and only President to spank that bull-necked
Zionist Net&Yahoo over the West Bank invasions?
Money talks,
Justice baulks.
Truly the road to hell is paved with good intentions!
On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 10:06:14 +1100, Peter Jason <p...@jostle.com> wrote:
On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 07:48:33 -0700 (PDT), Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net>
No - Hamas has been shelling southern Israel for more than a decade -
do you seriously expect no response at all? I'd be pleased if they
were to cut it out but Hamas really is dedicated to the complete
destruction of Israel and without allies they don't stand a ghost of a chance in hell of success.
Practically EVERY nation in either the Middle East or Europe has been occupied by somebody else over the centuries - it's not like you see
Britain going to war for the return of Calais or Austria for South
Tyrol.
Plenty of people have ancestors of various family backgrounds; my
children have several more - and some of these have a long history of warfare with each other.
Two more anti-Lucius-Quinctius-Cincinnatus of history.
Again I'm not a fan of either of these fine "gentlemen" but the whole
point of the Cincinnatus story is what he did AFTER he left office
which neither Putin or Bibi have done. THAT is why the US founding
fathers considered Washington 'the American Cincinnatus' - not what he
did 1756-1763 or 1776-1783.
Which specific crimes has Israel committed that the United States inHaving perpetrated such number of crimes against humanity, as Israel has done against Arabs, to secure a home... Does it make it a nice home, you think?
its first 150 years hadn't done even more so and first?
It's hard to pick sides in a world where assholes are everywhere.covering it?
People on the left celebrating the killing of Israelis: assholes.
People anywhere calling Hamas' attack unprovoked: assholes.
Is climate change creating a surfeit of assholes?
Can the mainstream media ever frame an issue correctly? Ratings require the graphic images of violence by 'Terrorists.' Why change a winning formula?
Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank, and Israel all live under various regimes of organized discrimination and oppression, much of which makes life nearly unlivable, and if the US media can’t even frame the issue correctly, what use is there in even
The American reflexive identification with Israel always obscures the fuller picture of what’s happening between Israel and the Palestinians. It doesn't help when in the UN we state that the US: unequivocally condemns the unprovoked attacks by Hamasterrorists against Israeli civilians.”
This is Putin-like lying by the Biden administration.
This attack was not unprovoked. What's a provocation?
Are the frequent attacks by far-right Israelis under the protection of Israeli police on the Al-Aqsa Mosque a provocation?
When some 800 Jewish settlers stormed the mosque on October 5, was it a provocation?
Is the killing of 248 Palestinians by Israeli forces or settlers between 1 January and 4 October of this year a provocation?
Is perhaps the denial of Palestinian human rights and national aspirations for decades, a provocation?
The Great American Lazy Mind need no more detail. Behold!
I see too much confusion for any of this to end well. Avoidable confusion, that is. To avoid confusion, just like some math problems, is best to start from first principles and the salient facts.Palestine as a new homeland. They went ahead, took it and didnt ask nicely, exactly as Ben Gurion had promised they would.
Why even apparently good articles like https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/15/opinion/israel-gaza-antisemitism.html fail to provide needed clarity?
The article doesnt even define Zionism to make things clear. For me, Zionism refers to a somewhat radical and sometimes violent political movement in the early 20th century that supported the belief of European Jews that they had a right to
The conflation of anti-Zionism and antisemitism is intentional. One said that you cant be anti-Zionist without being antisemitic, citing that equally you could not be against the civil rights movement and condemn racism at the same time. Its aninappropriate example. There are no human rights being trampled if Zionists dont get all of Palestine.
All kind of irrelevancies make it to the front page. Israel has the right to exist. It is a simplistic statement that leaves out what needs to be said, that Israels existence must to be implemented a different way. One that is not to the seriousdetriment of millions of their neighbors. This is a territorial dispute, not a philosophical one. its not subjective.
The moral high ground cannot possible depend on who commits the most or least shocking atrocities, unless we forget that war is hell. We shouldnt if we have to assign blame justly.He who starts is to blame, for one. As I said before: We see the existence of "beginning wrongful violence" as an offense in Athenian law. See Antiphon, Lysias, Isocrates and Demosthenes.
Atrocities are not the root problem, the root problem is the war, and to assign blame we need to know who provoked it. No fog of war obscures the answer. The casus belli is clearly the Zionist land-grabbing thats been going on for the last 120 years.
Are Palestinian blameless and corruption free? Thats is the wrong question in this conversation. On the land-robbing question, they are certainly blameless. Did they commit barbarous acts. YES. Because its a bloody war, not a fashion show. And nomatter the fashion in which they fail to resist conquest, they didnt ask for any of this, and they will ALWAYS have a good reason for their terrorism, as good, I dare say, as John Adams, Tom Jefferson, et al, had.
Conquest has been sort of legal in human affairs because conquerors said so, and they also wrote the history. No wonder that after the worse couple of wars ever, in the last century, with only Pyrrhic victories to be had, the survivors gathered anddecided at long last that conquest is a bad thing, and that 50 million dead by bullet, explosive or worse, was a clue not to be missed. So, after those wars the United Nations made conquest illegal, and a violation of international law.
So, whoever, pushes people out of their homes at bayonet point, AFTER 1945, is an international criminal. BEFORE, they get a pass. If Jordan or Syria or any other Arab country that was an UN state member at the time, pushed Jews out of their land atbayonet point, let them be punished. Goose-gander, punish Zionists equally for similar violations.
This would not apply to Palestinians, however, as far as the law, since they are not a country that is a full UN member. It is an important difference that puts Palestinians on high ground, legally and morally.cannot be carried by a single word. A terrorist can be a good guy, after all, if they fight the Reich, King George, or land-robbing Zion.
Finally, to resolve any pending ambiguity, if you take the land under Israel control today, and subtract the land that was granted in 1948, you will see a large remainder. That is the land Israel conquered illegally as UN member.
Can you do the same for the Palestinians, or other Arabs for that matter. Are they holding any land illegally? I dont think so. This indicates also were guilt should be placed.
Finally, what do you say to a Palestinian who complaints about the war. Do you say. You should get out of the Promise Land? I hope not, but there is no better answer either.
What do you say to an Israeli who complains about the war? Thats an easy one. You say the same we said to Japan, if you give Pearl Harbors, you get Hiroshimas.
The Pearl Harbor Zionists gave Palestinians is called the the Nakba (the catastrophe) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
Naturally, poor Palestinians have much less than a Hiroshima to offer in reply, but they do what they can, and I applaud their courage, knowing the likely consequences.
Hamas are terrorists. They fit the original definition, before 9/11 completely charged the word with all kinds of nastiness, forgetting that the French Resistance and the Founding Fathers were terrorists too. So sorry that political complexities
Terrorists who fight to bring back medieval religious practices, like ISIS, are not the good guys clearly, by a vast difference, and yet we use the same word. More confusioncome what may, and the high price we are paying for it financially and reputationally is a good investment its a rather poor one.
So, since 1948, who is that clings to the land obtained by acts of conquest? Its Zion again.
Israel IS a democracy, but more like that of Athens than the European and American democracies of today. They have elections and thats it. They also have Arab citizens that are officially discriminated. If this is a reason to think supporting Israel
Their "democracy" is tainted by the theocrats, the furry Hasidics who
wield great power in the parliament.
History's greatest Jewish ghetto is unlikely to survive the USA as
this latter's power decreases in time, to be replaced by Asia's.
The expense of propping up this theocracy, together with the areas instability is something the USA can decreasingly afford.
Bring back Trump!
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