[continued from previous message]

Bill Fletcher Jr.: Right. Okay. Right. So 2021. But is it really a
threat? I mean, there’s the likelihood of a massive land assault on
Russia is about as likely as my going to the moon tomorrow. This is
the 21st century, we’re not talking about Operation Barbarossa of
1941. And Russia has the most nuclear weapons on this planet.

I mean, one of the concerns, Noam, is that when we talk about security
and this concern for Russian security, I start wondering, well, who’s concerned about Ukrainian security? And who’s concerned about the
security of the countries that are bordering on Russia that seem to
have been in a complete panic after the Soviet Union collapse. Where
does that fit in terms of some sort of more comprehensive approach to
security?

Noam Chomsky: Let’s take a look. There was no threat whatsoever to the security of Austria, Finland, the Baltic countries, Germany. The West
is now euphoric about the fact that the Russian military is incapable
of capturing cities 30 kilometers from its border. There was no threat
to those countries expressed or conceivable. If you want to, there is
a threat from the United States. Why do you think world opinion
regards the United States as the most dangerous country in the world?
The world opinion, overwhelmingly, nobody else is [crosstalk]. Okay.

Bill Fletcher Jr.: Right.

Noam Chomsky: There’s a reason for that. The United States does what
it wants. Invaded Iraq, destroyed the country, killed hundreds of
thousands of people, laid the basis for ethnic conflicts that are
tearing the region apart, the basis for ISIS. Remember the Nuremberg
tribunal. That’s not foreign, back in history. Invasion of
Afghanistan, not far back in history. The United States remains a
violent power.

We don’t talk about it, but in the Global South, they can see that the
United States right now, right at this moment is purposely,
consciously enhancing some of the major criminal acts in the world
right now. Right now, millions of Afghans, after 20 years of US
invasion and destruction, right now millions of Afghans are facing
literal starvation. There’s food in the markets, there are people who
have some money, but they have to watch their children starve because
they can’t go to the bank to get a little bit of money to buy food in
the market. Why? Because the United States has stolen their money.

Bill Fletcher Jr.: But Noam, see, I hear you and I’m not here.

Noam Chomsky: That’s just the very beginning.

Bill Fletcher Jr.: I understand, but I’m not here to defend the United States, as you well know. But what I am saying is that there are
multiple imperial powers on this planet.

Noam Chomsky: Right.

Bill Fletcher Jr.: Right. And one of the things about the alleged
Russian fear of what was happening in the Ukraine is that up until
2014, Ukraine was not interested in getting into NATO. But when the
Russians intervened in the internal affairs of Ukraine, grabbing
Crimea, promoting the secessionist movements, those things changed. So
all of a sudden you have, then, a growing sympathy, which is
completely logical because the country is being torn apart.

Noam Chomsky: It’s not pretty, but it’s very logical. You’re skipping what happened in 2014. In 2014, there was an uprising or coup, call it
what you want, which threw out the elected government, parliamentary government, refused the offer of the president to have a referendum or
a vote and caused him to flee the country and return to the country
with direct US involvement. Do I have to repeat to you the leaked
material about Victoria Nuland? Now our point person on Ukraine
discussing secretly who we are going to work to bring to be the next
president. Should it be Yats? Should it be somebody else? Direct US
involvement to establish a government that would be pro US instead of
the former pro Russian government.

Well, Russia could have just stood by and clapped, as we could have
stood by and clapped if a pro Chinese government was established in
Mexico calling for a military alliance with China. I rather doubt that
we would’ve done that. You can decide. But Russia didn’t do it. They
moved in and supported the Eastern sections, mostly Russia oriented
population, mixed population, and they moved to take Crimea for
reasons that every strategic analyst understands. You want to go back
to Chas Freeman? Yeah. He just described it. Every Western analyst
understands it. Crimea, which incidentally is very pro Russian and
accepted the annexation, Crimea is the base for the only Russian warm
water port. They’re not like the United States.

Bill Fletcher Jr.: But it was Ukrainian territory, Noam.

Noam Chomsky: Is what?

Bill Fletcher Jr.: It was Ukrainian territory.

Noam Chomsky: What?

Bill Fletcher Jr.: Crimea, it was Ukrainian territory from 1954 on.

Noam Chomsky: Had been recently handed over to Ukraine, traditionally
it had been Russian territory.

Bill Fletcher Jr.: Right.

Noam Chomsky: It was the home… I’m not justifying it, I’m giving the explanation that’s given by every US strategic analyst and high-level diplomat. Russia had its only warm water ports, including Naval bases,
in Crimea. They were being immediately threatened by the pro US
government that took power with direct US involvement and was
beginning to move towards joining, slowly, into preliminary moves
towards NATO. So yes, Russia moved in for, you can say it was wrong,
fine, but don’t say it was not understandable.

Bill Fletcher Jr.: No, I hear you loud and clear. But as a leftist,
I’m not thinking about power politics or great power politics, I’m
thinking about issues of sovereignty, self-determination. Just like
when Reagan claimed that the Sandinista victory put the Sandinistas
within driving distance of the Texas border, we just ridiculed that
position.

But let me just say this, Noam, because we have five minutes and I
know you have another interview and I wanted to give you a minute
before you went to your other interview. And so I wanted to thank you.
I wanted to ask you a final quick question, which is that there are
many people in the US left that seem to feel that there’s nothing that
we can do about Putin’s influence one way or another, and that we
should not even try. Do you have recommendations on how we in the
United States, particularly the left and progressives, should be
looking at what to do?

Noam Chomsky: First of all, as leftists, we should be opposed to all imperialism, should be opposed to overthrowing governments, to
aggression and violence. And as human beings who are sensible and
moral, we should concentrate our attention, energy, and activism on
what we can do. Happens overwhelmingly to be the actions of our own
government, which happens to be the leader in the world. World
champion by far in opposing sovereignty, in aggression, in violence,
and interference, in terrorism and so on. We should oppose Russian
imitation of our actions. What can we do about it? Well, I think it’s
very clear. There are two options. The ones I mentioned before.

One option is one we’re adopting. Fight to the last Ukrainian, to
quote Ambassador Freeman again. And ensure that the Russians out
there, that Putin and his circle are backed up against the wall, no
exit, no way out, therefore they’ll have the basic option of
destroying Ukraine and moving towards global war. That’s one option,
which happens to be the one we’re following. There is another option.
Abandon the policies, our official policies, those I quoted. Move
towards accepting a status for Ukraine which is similar to Mexico,
Austria, Finland for decades, move towards establishing that, withdraw
the threats to Russia that are explicit in the policy statement I
mentioned. Move towards some kind of Minsk II style arrangement for a
high level of autonomy for the Eastern region, maybe within a federal settlement. Recognize the reality that, like it or not, Crimea is off
the table, it’s not a negotiating option now.

That’s ugly, but the alternative is to continue our efforts to destroy Ukraine and to move towards an international war. Those are the
choices. World is not a pretty place. You don’t have the choice of
electing Martin Luther King as the head of every government.

Bill Fletcher Jr.: Dr. Noam Chomsky, thank you very, very much for
joining us. This has been delightful. Really appreciate you taking
this time.

Noam Chomsky: Sorry, got to move off the way -

Bill Fletcher Jr.: Understand.

Noam Chomsky: …For the next one.

Bill Fletcher Jr.: Take care. Thank you very much.

And I want to thank all of you for joining us this evening. I hope you
enjoyed this as much as I did. And it’s one of those things where I
had at least another hour of questions and discussions and comments
that I wanted to offer, but this was a good taste. This was good. And
I’m hoping you enjoy it. I’m hoping that you will provide support to
The Real News Network, that you will provide support to Convergence
Magazine, get a subscription. That you will access different
organizations that have sponsored this program. That you’ll engage in discussions and activism against the various imperialist powers out
there that bring us closer and closer to extinction. I want to thank
you very much again. My name is Bill Fletcher, and goodnight to you.

Source:
https://chomsky.info/20220408/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)