I began following Talk.Origins in late 1997 having
purchased my first desktop and discovering usenet.
This newsgroup has played a fundamental role in
my understanding of creationism and the influence of
fundamentalist religious efforts to corrupt public education
with their falsehoods and and to impose a knowingly false
version of science on our chldren.

Talk.Origins' efforts in publicizing creationists' actions
have been immensely successful in spreading reliable
information about the specifics of ID while providing
refutations to those claims. My lurking here has led to
a much wider persuit of information and understinging
of the details fo evolution. An understanding far beyond
that provided by my basic biology classes in college.

There are far to many people to thank for their contributions
to this newsgroup. Their efforts cannot be understated
nor can they be measured. But this is one lurker who
was profoundly effected by their sharing of their professional
knowledge of biology and science in general. I thank
each of you for reaching out to the general public and
I thank David Ian Greig for making sure this group remained
accessible.

I remain a proud owner of a copy of Mark Isaak's book
The Counter-Creationism Handbook that still rests on my
chairside table and to which I refer frequently.

I write this as I find that the influence of ID has waned
to near nonexistence over the years and Talk.Origins' purpose
has been served.

Again, thanks to you all.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/3/2023 12:07 PM, Dexter wrote:

I began following Talk.Origins in late 1997 having
purchased my first desktop and discovering usenet.
This newsgroup has played a fundamental role in
my understanding of creationism and the influence of
fundamentalist religious efforts to corrupt public education
with their falsehoods and and to impose a knowingly false
version of science on our chldren.

Talk.Origins' efforts in publicizing creationists' actions
have been immensely successful in spreading reliable
information about the specifics of ID while providing
refutations to those claims. My lurking here has led to
a much wider persuit of information and understinging
of the details fo evolution. An understanding far beyond
that provided by my basic biology classes in college.

There are far to many people to thank for their contributions
to this newsgroup. Their efforts cannot be understated
nor can they be measured. But this is one lurker who
was profoundly effected by their sharing of their professional
knowledge of biology and science in general. I thank
each of you for reaching out to the general public and
I thank David Ian Greig for making sure this group remained
accessible.

I remain a proud owner of a copy of Mark Isaak's book
The Counter-Creationism Handbook that still rests on my
chairside table and to which I refer frequently.

I write this as I find that the influence of ID has waned
to near nonexistence over the years and Talk.Origins' purpose
has been served.

Again, thanks to you all.

I do not know what the future of the creationist ID scam is going to be.
The ID perps at the Discovery Institute shot themselves in the head
half a decade ago, and ID pretty much died on TO. IDiots on TO were not
the only casualties of the suicide attempt. Uncommon Descent also died.
The ID perps do not allow comments to their ID scam junk so currently discussion is limited to individual IDiotic bloggers.

The Pandas thumb still puts up the ID perp junk for discussion, but
IDiotic creationist input seems to be limited.

The ID scam unit at the Discovery Institute still has political backers
that are footing the bills. As sad as it may be it is the only half way
viable creationist game in town even if the majority of their
creationist support never wanted them to accomplish any creation
science. These backers do not seem to be backing the ID science, but
they are supporting the original theocratic mission of the ID scam unit.
Making believe that the ID scam is still viable seems to be their only
option to keep their religious political mission going. The ID perps
have been using ID as the bait to keep that political mission going for
over 2 decades. The obfuscation and denial switch scam that they give
the rubes instead is their only option to keep the original political
mission alive.

Keeping the scam going seems to keep creationists like MarkE in the
game. The sad thing is that MarkE has likely known that ID has been a
scam from the beginning. So why he would cite the ID perps in order to
support his religious beliefs is sort of nuts.

Ron Okimoto

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/3/2023 5:41 PM, MarkE wrote:

On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 6:01:58 AM UTC+11, RonO wrote:

On 12/3/2023 12:07 PM, Dexter wrote:

I began following Talk.Origins in late 1997 having
purchased my first desktop and discovering usenet.
This newsgroup has played a fundamental role in
my understanding of creationism and the influence of
fundamentalist religious efforts to corrupt public education
with their falsehoods and and to impose a knowingly false
version of science on our chldren.

Talk.Origins' efforts in publicizing creationists' actions
have been immensely successful in spreading reliable
information about the specifics of ID while providing
refutations to those claims. My lurking here has led to
a much wider persuit of information and understinging
of the details fo evolution. An understanding far beyond
that provided by my basic biology classes in college.

There are far to many people to thank for their contributions
to this newsgroup. Their efforts cannot be understated
nor can they be measured. But this is one lurker who
was profoundly effected by their sharing of their professional
knowledge of biology and science in general. I thank
each of you for reaching out to the general public and
I thank David Ian Greig for making sure this group remained
accessible.

I remain a proud owner of a copy of Mark Isaak's book
The Counter-Creationism Handbook that still rests on my
chairside table and to which I refer frequently.

I write this as I find that the influence of ID has waned
to near nonexistence over the years and Talk.Origins' purpose
has been served.

Again, thanks to you all.

I do not know what the future of the creationist ID scam is going to be.
The ID perps at the Discovery Institute shot themselves in the head
half a decade ago, and ID pretty much died on TO. IDiots on TO were not
the only casualties of the suicide attempt. Uncommon Descent also died.
The ID perps do not allow comments to their ID scam junk so currently
discussion is limited to individual IDiotic bloggers.

The Pandas thumb still puts up the ID perp junk for discussion, but
IDiotic creationist input seems to be limited.

The ID scam unit at the Discovery Institute still has political backers
that are footing the bills. As sad as it may be it is the only half way
viable creationist game in town even if the majority of their
creationist support never wanted them to accomplish any creation
science. These backers do not seem to be backing the ID science, but
they are supporting the original theocratic mission of the ID scam unit.
Making believe that the ID scam is still viable seems to be their only
option to keep their religious political mission going. The ID perps
have been using ID as the bait to keep that political mission going for
over 2 decades. The obfuscation and denial switch scam that they give
the rubes instead is their only option to keep the original political
mission alive.

Keeping the scam going seems to keep creationists like MarkE in the
game. The sad thing is that MarkE has likely known that ID has been a
scam from the beginning. So why he would cite the ID perps in order to
support his religious beliefs is sort of nuts.

"Fides quaerens intellectum" - "Faith seeking understanding”, which means that faith in God revealed in Jesus Christ prompts a questioning search for deeper understanding (Anselm of Canterbury, 1033–1109).

It doesn't matter why you do it, it is still nuts for you to continue to
go back to people that you know have been lying to you for decades in
order to achieve that understanding.

But even if the order was reversed for me, why would I seek to "support my religious beliefs...likely knowing that ID has been a scam from the beginning"?

You're saying that I'm likely an intentional liar. Just so we're clear with each other, is that your intention?

I wrote just what I wrote. It just is nuts that you would go to a group
that you know has been lying about the situation for decades. What type
of understanding could you ever achieve by doing that? What is worse is
that you do it because you seem to agree with what they have been
selling. You obviously can't find the understanding that you seek where
you are seeking it. Your own experience has told you that for decades.

If you really were seeking understanding, you would not be wallowing in
denial, but you would be seeking out what can be understood out of the
mess. When the ID perps put out their Top Six, they did it in such a
way so that even the most lost IDiots like Bill understood that they had
never wanted the ID perps to accomplish any ID science. The reality has
always been that the ID perps would have only added to our current understanding of the creation. Denial isn't understanding what is
already understood.

Ron Okimoto

Ron Okimoto

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/3/2023 5:57 PM, MarkE wrote:

On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 6:01:58 AM UTC+11, RonO wrote:

On 12/3/2023 12:07 PM, Dexter wrote:

I began following Talk.Origins in late 1997 having
purchased my first desktop and discovering usenet.
This newsgroup has played a fundamental role in
my understanding of creationism and the influence of
fundamentalist religious efforts to corrupt public education
with their falsehoods and and to impose a knowingly false
version of science on our chldren.

Talk.Origins' efforts in publicizing creationists' actions
have been immensely successful in spreading reliable
information about the specifics of ID while providing
refutations to those claims. My lurking here has led to
a much wider persuit of information and understinging
of the details fo evolution. An understanding far beyond
that provided by my basic biology classes in college.

There are far to many people to thank for their contributions
to this newsgroup. Their efforts cannot be understated
nor can they be measured. But this is one lurker who
was profoundly effected by their sharing of their professional
knowledge of biology and science in general. I thank
each of you for reaching out to the general public and
I thank David Ian Greig for making sure this group remained
accessible.

I remain a proud owner of a copy of Mark Isaak's book
The Counter-Creationism Handbook that still rests on my
chairside table and to which I refer frequently.

I write this as I find that the influence of ID has waned
to near nonexistence over the years and Talk.Origins' purpose
has been served.

Again, thanks to you all.

I do not know what the future of the creationist ID scam is going to be.
The ID perps at the Discovery Institute shot themselves in the head
half a decade ago, and ID pretty much died on TO. IDiots on TO were not
the only casualties of the suicide attempt. Uncommon Descent also died.
The ID perps do not allow comments to their ID scam junk so currently
discussion is limited to individual IDiotic bloggers.

The Pandas thumb still puts up the ID perp junk for discussion, but
IDiotic creationist input seems to be limited.

The ID scam unit at the Discovery Institute still has political backers
that are footing the bills. As sad as it may be it is the only half way
viable creationist game in town even if the majority of their
creationist support never wanted them to accomplish any creation
science. These backers do not seem to be backing the ID science, but
they are supporting the original theocratic mission of the ID scam unit.
Making believe that the ID scam is still viable seems to be their only
option to keep their religious political mission going. The ID perps
have been using ID as the bait to keep that political mission going for
over 2 decades. The obfuscation and denial switch scam that they give
the rubes instead is their only option to keep the original political
mission alive.

Keeping the scam going seems to keep creationists like MarkE in the
game. The sad thing is that MarkE has likely known that ID has been a
scam from the beginning. So why he would cite the ID perps in order to
support his religious beliefs is sort of nuts.

You say that I have "likely known that ID has been a scam from the beginning". Just so we're clear with each other: you are meaning to call me a knowing liar?

What would you be lying about? I wrote just what I wrote. In all your
years on TO I have not known you to have supported the ID scam claptrap.
You seem to have always known that it was something bogus and tended
to stay clear of the stupid claims. You seemed to be an anti-evolution creationist, but you weren't as lost as nearly all the others that have
ever posted to TO.

So why start supporting the ID scam junk, now, after most of the IDiots
have given up on the scam? It may be the only game left in town, but
that doesn't mean that it isn't as stupid and dishonest as it has always
been.

You can check out the failure of the Reason to Believe IDiots. They
claim to be intelligent design advocates, but also admit that they are
doing it to support their Biblical interpretations. Their understanding doesn't fit into reality. Trying to fit the Biblical creation story
into this reality is just never going to work. Nature is not Biblical.
We have known that for centuries. Are you a geocentric flat earth creationists? Are you a 7 day young earth creationist? Do you believe
that the sun and moon are embedded in the firmament and that the sun and
moon were created a day after land plants were created?

You probably should check out BioLogos to see how they have approached understanding the creation. A lot of them are evangelical Christians,
so they are not lacking in faith.

https://biologos.org/

Ron Okimoto

Ron Okimoto

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/6/2023 12:05 AM, MarkE wrote:

On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 12:36:58 PM UTC+11, RonO wrote:

On 12/3/2023 5:57 PM, MarkE wrote:

On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 6:01:58 AM UTC+11, RonO wrote:

On 12/3/2023 12:07 PM, Dexter wrote:

I began following Talk.Origins in late 1997 having
purchased my first desktop and discovering usenet.
This newsgroup has played a fundamental role in
my understanding of creationism and the influence of
fundamentalist religious efforts to corrupt public education
with their falsehoods and and to impose a knowingly false
version of science on our chldren.

Talk.Origins' efforts in publicizing creationists' actions
have been immensely successful in spreading reliable
information about the specifics of ID while providing
refutations to those claims. My lurking here has led to
a much wider persuit of information and understinging
of the details fo evolution. An understanding far beyond
that provided by my basic biology classes in college.

There are far to many people to thank for their contributions
to this newsgroup. Their efforts cannot be understated
nor can they be measured. But this is one lurker who
was profoundly effected by their sharing of their professional
knowledge of biology and science in general. I thank
each of you for reaching out to the general public and
I thank David Ian Greig for making sure this group remained
accessible.

I remain a proud owner of a copy of Mark Isaak's book
The Counter-Creationism Handbook that still rests on my
chairside table and to which I refer frequently.

I write this as I find that the influence of ID has waned
to near nonexistence over the years and Talk.Origins' purpose
has been served.

Again, thanks to you all.

I do not know what the future of the creationist ID scam is going to be. >>>> The ID perps at the Discovery Institute shot themselves in the head
half a decade ago, and ID pretty much died on TO. IDiots on TO were not >>>> the only casualties of the suicide attempt. Uncommon Descent also died. >>>> The ID perps do not allow comments to their ID scam junk so currently
discussion is limited to individual IDiotic bloggers.

The Pandas thumb still puts up the ID perp junk for discussion, but
IDiotic creationist input seems to be limited.

The ID scam unit at the Discovery Institute still has political backers >>>> that are footing the bills. As sad as it may be it is the only half way >>>> viable creationist game in town even if the majority of their
creationist support never wanted them to accomplish any creation
science. These backers do not seem to be backing the ID science, but
they are supporting the original theocratic mission of the ID scam unit. >>>> Making believe that the ID scam is still viable seems to be their only >>>> option to keep their religious political mission going. The ID perps
have been using ID as the bait to keep that political mission going for >>>> over 2 decades. The obfuscation and denial switch scam that they give
the rubes instead is their only option to keep the original political
mission alive.

Keeping the scam going seems to keep creationists like MarkE in the
game. The sad thing is that MarkE has likely known that ID has been a
scam from the beginning. So why he would cite the ID perps in order to >>>> support his religious beliefs is sort of nuts.

You say that I have "likely known that ID has been a scam from the beginning". Just so we're clear with each other: you are meaning to call me a knowing liar?

What would you be lying about? I wrote just what I wrote. In all your
years on TO I have not known you to have supported the ID scam claptrap.
You seem to have always known that it was something bogus and tended
to stay clear of the stupid claims. You seemed to be an anti-evolution
creationist, but you weren't as lost as nearly all the others that have
ever posted to TO.

So why start supporting the ID scam junk, now, after most of the IDiots
have given up on the scam? It may be the only game left in town, but
that doesn't mean that it isn't as stupid and dishonest as it has always
been.

ID is a broad church - some questionable elements to be expected. But I see value from a number of their exponents, e.g.:

Meyer - Cambrian, cosmology

Did you watch the Meyer Sherman "discussion" on Meyer's "God
Hypothesis". In that discussion Meyer admitted that he was not dealing
with "a" god hypothesis, but was building enough gap denial to support
some type of god hypothesis. He wasn't interested in applying any of
the denial to his own religious beliefs. You know why he doesn't want
to do that. Meyer is likely an old earth creationist like they have at
Reason to Believe, and he understands that the designer that fits into
his 25 million year period over half a billion years ago is not his
Biblical designer. Meyer never wanted to fill that gap. It would just
be more science that creatiionists would have to deny. The Reason to
Believe IDiots use Meyer's Cambrian Explosion gap denial, but only for
gap denial. It doesn't fit into their Biblical model so they have to
deny that sea creatures existed long before the land plants existed that
were supposed to be created first. The Big Bang and fine tuning
cosmology has made them alter the "day" that the sun and moon were
created. They have a stupid claim that the sun and moon were created
much earlier, but just were not visible until day 4. You know it is a
stupid claim to try to fit reality into the Biblical account because
there were not any life forms to "see" the sun and moon for billions of
years. Their existence would have only mattered to the creator.

Meyer has nothing for you.

Tour; Long Story Short - OoL

Tour is a dishonest Biblical creationist. He knows that he is being
dishonest because he has acknowledged that he doesn't know how to do any
ID science. He knew that the ID scam had been a scam since the
beginning, but he still wanted to defend it's Biblical roots. Like you,
Tour likely does not want to believe in the designer that is responsible
for filling the origin of life gap. He is only using it for denial
purposes. This is not the designer depicted in the Bible. You can go
to the Reason to Believe IDiots and see them admitting that the origin
of life is never mentioned in the Bible. Even though they want to
maintain the Biblical order of creation (land plants first, sea
creatures, and then land animals). They have to claim that a lot is not mentioned in the Bible, but biological evolution is not mentioned in the
Bible. In order to keep denying biological evolution they have to
maintain their order of creation, and that is just nuts. They even
claim that whales were among the sea creatures created before their
terrestrial mammalian ancestors.

Tour has nothing for you.

Behe - IC, wait time problem

Behe admits that Biological evolution is a fact of nature. You should
recall the whale evolution fiasco that involved Glenn and Nyikos. In
that article Behe claimed that whale evolution was macro evolution, and
that it was the type of evolution that would be expected to occur by
Darwinian mechanisms. Behe was only throwing the IDiots a bone by
claiming that it was a bad type of evolution that he called devolution.
It happened by Darwinian mechanisms, but it wasn't the good type of
evolution that his designer was responsible for. The last thing that
you want Behe to do would be for him to do the science and confirm that
his designer is responsible for his IC flagellum. He would know what
existed at the time (over a billion years ago) and he would know how it
had changed so that he could identify his 3 neutral mutations that would
have had to occur within a limited period of time to evolve a function necessary for the evolution of the flagellum. That is not the Biblical designer. The Reason to Believe IDiots would have to reject it. Just
think that his IC blood clotting and adaptive immune IC systems all
evolved in sea creatures before land plants existed, not only that, but
the designer would have evolved those systems from material that already existed in the ancestors of those creatures.

Axe - protein space sparsity

You should know why life has only had to use an insignificant portion of protein space. It is because that is all that was needed to get to
where we are today. We never had to stray very far from the proteins
that managed to evolve de novo. The majority of proteins in existence
evolved from preexisting proteins, and only had to change a little in
order to form a new function. Evolution has worked because all the biochemistry has been able to be accomplished with just a few protein sequences. It works because stable proteins exist, and can fold
accurately. These can be duplicated and one copy can change to do
something else. Axe has nothing for you. You know this because you put
up the new gene paper on how many genes had to evolve before
multicellular animals could evolve. They all had evolved over billions
of years, and most of them were derived from preexisting genes. You
wanted to claim that there were too many new genes, but it turned out
that the number of genes that had to evolve during the Cambrian
explosion was minimal because they already existed.

Dembski - complexity and specificity

Dembski retired from the ID scam as an abject failure and none of his
IDiocy made it into the ID Perp's Top Six. He has come back to the ID
scam, but he is still an abject IDiotic failure. Nothing that he ever
proposed panned out. Not even by IDiotic standards. It all failed to
even convince the other ID perps.

Ron Okimoto

Have you listened to Stephen Meyer in extended conversation with sceptic David Shermer? Anyone who calls Meyer an "IDiot", "perp", or "scammer" is the real idiot.

I have asked you that. Shermer was stupid in letting Meyer get away
with using the Top Six as independent bits of denial. Meyer was
emphatic in his claims that he did not want to understand the gap denial
in relation to his religious beliefs. The reason, obviously, is because
they do not support his religious beliefs. It is true that, that is how
the Top Six have always been used to scam the rubes, but it only scams
the rubes. When the IDiots of TO had to deal with the Top Six in their
order of occurrence in this universe as a related group they could not
do it and stopped being IDiots. You are just lying to yourself if you
think that gap denial is of any use to Biblical Creationists. Most of
them do not want to fill those gaps with their designer because nature
just is not Biblical. You should go to BioLogos to see how they deal
with nature.

Ron Okimoto

You can check out the failure of the Reason to Believe IDiots. They
claim to be intelligent design advocates, but also admit that they are
doing it to support their Biblical interpretations. Their understanding
doesn't fit into reality. Trying to fit the Biblical creation story
into this reality is just never going to work. Nature is not Biblical.
We have known that for centuries. Are you a geocentric flat earth
creationists? Are you a 7 day young earth creationist? Do you believe
that the sun and moon are embedded in the firmament and that the sun and
moon were created a day after land plants were created?

From memory, RTB rejects macroevolution but accepts an old earth/universe. A hybrid which attempts to reconcile science and its interpretation of the biblical account.

You probably should check out BioLogos to see how they have approached
understanding the creation. A lot of them are evangelical Christians,
so they are not lacking in faith.

https://biologos.org/

I appreciate the intent of RTB and BioLogos to take seriously scientific evidence and scripture. How successful they are is of course disputed.

Ron Okimoto

Ron Okimoto

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 12/5/23 10:05 PM, MarkE wrote:

[...]
ID is a broad church - some questionable elements to be expected. But I see value from a number of their exponents, e.g.:

Meyer - Cambrian, cosmology

Meyer misrepresents the Cambrian and tries to keep you from looking at
all the evolutionary change that happened before and after it. I don't remember what he said about cosmology, probably because it was so easily dismissed out of hand.

Tour; Long Story Short - OoL

I.e., nothing.

Behe - IC, wait time problem

Behe still ignores the fact that IC is easily, probably routinely,
produced by natural evolutionary processes. He works hard to prove his
pet hypothesis true, rather than check whether it is or not.

Axe - protein space sparsity

"Look! Among all this great quantity, I found a gap!"

Dembski - complexity and specificity

Specified complexity is another term for a non-trivial copy. All
Dembski has done is to prove mathematically that biology includes
reproduction.

--
Mark Isaak
"Wisdom begins when you discover the difference between 'That
doesn't make sense' and 'I don't understand.'" - Mary Doria Russell

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thursday 7 December 2023 at 23:42:02 UTC+2, erik simpson wrote:

"All [...] has done is to prove mathematically that biology includes reproduction." would make a
good Chez Watt.

Category: Proof of 8==D reported.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/7/2023 10:24 AM, Mark Isaak wrote:

On 12/5/23 10:05 PM, MarkE wrote:

[...]
ID is a broad church - some questionable elements to be expected. But
I see value from a number of their exponents, e.g.:

Meyer - Cambrian, cosmology

Meyer misrepresents the Cambrian and tries to keep you from looking at
all the evolutionary change that happened before and after it.  I don't remember what he said about cosmology, probably because it was so easily dismissed out of hand.

Tour; Long Story Short - OoL

I.e., nothing.

Behe - IC, wait time problem

Behe still ignores the fact that IC is easily, probably routinely,
produced by natural evolutionary processes.  He works hard to prove his
pet hypothesis true, rather than check whether it is or not.

Actually Behe admitted that IC systems could evolve in his responses to
his critics at the turn of the century over 20 years ago. I recall that
his example was the lever and fulcrum type of IC system. That is why he
had to start claiming that his IC systems had something extra. At first
he emphasized "well matched parts" but he could never tell anyone how to measure it in order to tell if his systems had enough of it. Behe
started claiming that his IC systems would be identified by the order
and arrangement of the mutations needed to create them from the
preexisting sequences. He came up with his 3 neutral mutations that had
to be required to make something IC. If the 3 neutral mutations
occurred to create a new function in a certain period of time that would
make a system his type of IC system. You no longer needed interacting
parts and evolution of a single protein would do. It was the basis of
his book "The Edge of Evolution", but Behe never found any examples that exceeded his limit. He only claimed that they must exist in his IC
systems. All the examples that we have figured out do not exceed Behe's
limit, so that is why he denigrated the findings as being on the "edge"
of evolution. It was as stupid as his whale devolution stupidity. Behe actually admitted that whales had evolved from terrestrial mammals, and
called it an example of macro evolution that Darwinian mechanisms would
have been expected to have been able to do. He only denigrated that
type of evolution by calling it devolution and evolution by breaking
things. As stupid as it may seem Behe was just claiming that his
designer could have done a better job, but obviously had not, and that
nature could account for the evolution of whales. IC has been dead for decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started
running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It
was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had
nothing worth teaching.

Ron Okimoto

Axe - protein space sparsity

"Look! Among all this great quantity, I found a gap!"

Dembski - complexity and specificity

Specified complexity is another term for a non-trivial copy.  All
Dembski has done is to prove mathematically that biology includes reproduction.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started
running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It
was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had
nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up.


--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

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On 12/7/23 2:22 PM, Öö Tiib wrote:

On Thursday 7 December 2023 at 23:42:02 UTC+2, erik simpson wrote:

"All [...] has done is to prove mathematically that biology includes reproduction." would make a
good Chez Watt.

Category: Proof of 8==D reported.

Are either of these (Oo Tiib's or Eric's) a formal nomination?

--
Mark Isaak
"Wisdom begins when you discover the difference between 'That
doesn't make sense' and 'I don't understand.'" - Mary Doria Russell

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On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started
running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It
was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had
nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up.

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more.
There is no reason for the rest of TO to keep lying about what the ID
scam has been all these years. Everyone should have faced that reality
long ago. ID died on TO 5 years ago. The ID perps committed suicide.
You can go back into a TO archive and see the ID perps running the bait
and switch on the Utah creationist rubes at the same time they were
dazzling the rest of the IDiot rubes with their Top Six. That was
enough for most of the IDiots on TO to call it quits. Making believe
that something else happened isn't going to change reality.

Ron Okimoto

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started
running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It
was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had
nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up.

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more.

*My* post?

There is no reason for the rest of TO to keep lying about what the ID
scam has been all these years. Everyone should have faced that reality
long ago. ID died on TO 5 years ago. The ID perps committed suicide.
You can go back into a TO archive and see the ID perps running the bait
and switch on the Utah creationist rubes at the same time they were
dazzling the rest of the IDiot rubes with their Top Six. That was
enough for most of the IDiots on TO to call it quits. Making believe
that something else happened isn't going to change reality.

Too many. I count 1 "bait and switch" "lying" "ID scam" "IDiots" "Top
Six" 2 "perps" and 2 "rubes". Perhaps I should add "reality" to the list.

I'm not addressing your argument at all; just the repetitive use of those
key words.

You seem to be arguing into a vacuum, I doubt many here
feel the need to trawl the TO archive to rehash old battles.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started
running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It >>>> was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had
nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up.

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more.

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post. What happened, happened 5 years ago. The
senseless denial and blame is stupid at this point. If you did not have anything to add to the discussion you should have not posted anything.
You all seem to have ended up in the same boat as Nyikos, and were just
as clueless. Nyikos was clueless beccause he lives by willful ignorance
of the ID scam. All the rest just seemed to want to believe that there
was something worth discussing. Harping about something that is just
telling things like they have been for over 20 years is not going to
change the fact that you just missed the boat because of your own
incompetence.

No matter how much you have come to dislike the terminology because of
the sour grapes of missing out on what happened five years ago is just
too stupid for anyone to contemplate at this time. The ID perps are
still perpetrating the bait and switch. They have never stopped doing
that since they started over 2 decades ago. All the IDiots demonstrated themselves to be worse than idiots. It may be a reminder of how lost
you were, but that isn't my fault. You all disregarded reality on your
own. Denial of what was going on was something that you needed to do
for your own reasons. I really had no idea that all of you didn't have
a clue as to what happened to ID on TO until I started getting blamed
for driving away the IDiots with some stupid refutation of the Top Six.
All that anyone had needed to do was actually read and understand what I
had posted. The IDiots that quit the ID scam could do that. Dean
understood that I was not refuting the Top Six when he made the claim
that I wasn't refuting the Top Six. Nyikos finally got clued in and
made the same claim. All that I had ever done was put up the Top Six as
the ID perps had done it, and later I just started pointing out how even
the ID perps could not deal with the Top Six in an honest and straight
forward manner.

I have been justified in using the terminology since I started, and
subsequent history has just indicated that it was being too mild. You
should be ashamed of your stupid antics in the face of reality.

Counting is something Nyikos does with the lies he tells. He has a
limit for telling the same lie or doing the same dishonest deed, and he
tries very hard not to exceed that limit. Count all you want to, it
will never change reality.

TO has to come to grips with reality, and everyone has to take
responsibility for themselves. There is no reason for me to stop using descriptions that fit into how things actually are, and no reason for
anyone to start objecting to it at this late date because I had been
using the terminology for over a decade before the ID perps committed
suicide by putting out the Top Six. Uncommon descent died too, and I
never posted over there. I just noted that they could not deal with the
Top Six in an honest and straightforward manner just like the TO IDiots
and the ID perps at the Discovery Institute.

Ron Okimoto

There is no reason for the rest of TO to keep lying about what the ID
scam has been all these years. Everyone should have faced that reality
long ago. ID died on TO 5 years ago. The ID perps committed suicide.
You can go back into a TO archive and see the ID perps running the bait
and switch on the Utah creationist rubes at the same time they were
dazzling the rest of the IDiot rubes with their Top Six. That was
enough for most of the IDiots on TO to call it quits. Making believe
that something else happened isn't going to change reality.

Too many. I count 1 "bait and switch" "lying" "ID scam" "IDiots" "Top
Six" 2 "perps" and 2 "rubes". Perhaps I should add "reality" to the list.

I'm not addressing your argument at all; just the repetitive use of those
key words.

You seem to be arguing into a vacuum, I doubt many here
feel the need to trawl the TO archive to rehash old battles.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Ofcourse the real effect of abondoning creationism has been to marginalize subjectivity. Bad opinions, weird ideology, and mental illness, have exploded, especially at universities. The students and professors at universities are falling prey to a
pattern of corruption that starts with conceiving of choosing in terms of figuring out the best option, instead of in terms of spontaneity, succumbing to the psychological pressure to do their best.

And things will only be getting from bad to worse. Certainly if we didn't have the holocaust already, we would be having it now. Teaching about the history of the holocaust is now doing the job of preventing a samelike catastrophy. The students and
professors are well into socialism, left wing socialism, but eventually they will inevtiably turn to right wing socialism. These people can really only see communism and nazism as the 2 available options for them. Maybe south africa will collapse, and
that will turn academic people into nazis. Or maybe some big cities, or states in the USA will collapse.

The whole evolutionist rubbish is defeated, by looking at the logic used with subjective words in common discourse. That logic shows creationism is true, that there is a subjective part of reality, which chooses how the objective part of reality ends up.
But the evolutionists are blinded by the feelings associated to doing their best, to acknowledge the subjective spirit choosing things.

So we are in a dark age, with an unending series of catastrophies.


Op zondag 3 december 2023 om 19:11:58 UTC+1 schreef Dexter:

I began following Talk.Origins in late 1997 having
purchased my first desktop and discovering usenet.
This newsgroup has played a fundamental role in
my understanding of creationism and the influence of
fundamentalist religious efforts to corrupt public education
with their falsehoods and and to impose a knowingly false
version of science on our chldren.

Talk.Origins' efforts in publicizing creationists' actions
have been immensely successful in spreading reliable
information about the specifics of ID while providing
refutations to those claims. My lurking here has led to
a much wider persuit of information and understinging
of the details fo evolution. An understanding far beyond
that provided by my basic biology classes in college.

There are far to many people to thank for their contributions
to this newsgroup. Their efforts cannot be understated
nor can they be measured. But this is one lurker who
was profoundly effected by their sharing of their professional
knowledge of biology and science in general. I thank
each of you for reaching out to the general public and
I thank David Ian Greig for making sure this group remained
accessible.

I remain a proud owner of a copy of Mark Isaak's book
The Counter-Creationism Handbook that still rests on my
chairside table and to which I refer frequently.

I write this as I find that the influence of ID has waned
to near nonexistence over the years and Talk.Origins' purpose
has been served.

Again, thanks to you all.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 09:52:47 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started
running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It >>>> was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had >>>> nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up.

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more.

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post. What happened, happened 5 years ago. The senseless denial and blame is stupid at this point. If you did not have anything to add to the discussion you should have not posted anything.

[More screed snipped]

I'm not addressing your argument at all; just the repetitive use of those key words.

You seem to be arguing into a vacuum, I doubt many here
feel the need to trawl the TO archive to rehash old battles.

I don't think you read this far.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/9/2023 2:34 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 09:52:47 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It >>>>>> was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had >>>>>> nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up.

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more. >>>

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post. What happened, happened 5 years ago. The
senseless denial and blame is stupid at this point. If you did not have
anything to add to the discussion you should have not posted anything.

[More screed snipped]

I'm not addressing your argument at all; just the repetitive use of those >>> key words.

You seem to be arguing into a vacuum, I doubt many here
feel the need to trawl the TO archive to rehash old battles.

I don't think you read this far.

Yes, you knew that you should not have posted at all. The repetition
was not an issue, until you made it an issue.

You need to just stop the whining and adjust to what reality has been
for the last 5 years. The current issue is just stupid because it will
not change reality. You all missed the boat, and blaming me isn't going
to change that fact. The TO IDiots will still have quit the ID scam due
to what the ID perps did, and not because of my correct use of
terminology. What kind of idiots had the IDiots always been?

Ron Okimoto

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 2:34 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 09:52:47 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It >>>>>>> was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had >>>>>>> nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up.

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more. >>>>

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post. What happened, happened 5 years ago. The
senseless denial and blame is stupid at this point. If you did not have >>> anything to add to the discussion you should have not posted anything.

[More screed snipped]

I'm not addressing your argument at all; just the repetitive use of those >>>> key words.

You seem to be arguing into a vacuum, I doubt many here
feel the need to trawl the TO archive to rehash old battles.

I don't think you read this far.

Yes, you knew that you should not have posted at all. The repetition
was not an issue, until you made it an issue.

You need to just stop the whining and adjust to what reality has been
for the last 5 years. The current issue is just stupid because it will
not change reality. You all missed the boat, and blaming me isn't going
to change that fact. The TO IDiots will still have quit the ID scam due
to what the ID perps did, and not because of my correct use of
terminology. What kind of idiots had the IDiots always been?

How are you going to change your approach by not falling back on the same
worn out tropes? You could reply with a quick “what I usually say about perps, scam, IDiots” and it would spare us the TL;DR. Freon Bill has left
the building and Pagano long before him. Do we need to recount their contributions here?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started
running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It >>>> was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had >>>> nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up.

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more.

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post.

[there you go again]

I mentioned your excessive relative entropy.
If you already have a few years worth of your postings
one more doesn't add anything. It is almost all repetition,
not just with the same words all over, but also with the same content.

Apart from that you have the nasty habit of turning extremely agressive
on any sane person outside your little circle of interests
who says something that makes sense.
Your vicious attack on the Kerr-Mudd was quite predictable.

You may have noticed that I left T.O. several years ago.
(apart from an occasional glance twice a year or so
to see that nothing really changed)
Your boring, agressive, and ultimately uninteresting rants
were one of the things that made T.O. less attractive to me.

Best,

Jan

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started
running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It >> was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had
nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up.

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more.

*My* post?

There is no reason for the rest of TO to keep lying about what the ID scam has been all these years. Everyone should have faced that reality long ago. ID died on TO 5 years ago. The ID perps committed suicide.
You can go back into a TO archive and see the ID perps running the bait
and switch on the Utah creationist rubes at the same time they were dazzling the rest of the IDiot rubes with their Top Six. That was
enough for most of the IDiots on TO to call it quits. Making believe
that something else happened isn't going to change reality.

Too many. I count 1 "bait and switch" "lying" "ID scam" "IDiots" "Top
Six" 2 "perps" and 2 "rubes". Perhaps I should add "reality" to the list.

I'm not addressing your argument at all; just the repetitive use of those
key words.

You seem to be arguing into a vacuum, I doubt many here
feel the need to trawl the TO archive to rehash old battles.

Indeed, RonO has un otherwise unheard of relative entropy with respect
to himself.
(for RonO, relative entropy is a measure of the amount of --new--
information that you obtain from one more post, in addition to what you
already have.)
It can be measured quatitatively. [1]

For RonO that is very close to zero.
You've seen a few of his, you have seen them all.

Jan

[1] Also known as Kullback–Leibler divergence. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kullback–Leibler_divergence>
It has been used in the past to succesfully unmask authors trying to
hide under a new pseudonym.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2023-12-10 09:48:18 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It >>>>>> was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had >>>>>> nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up.

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more. >>>

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post.

[there you go again]

I mentioned your excessive relative entropy.
If you already have a few years worth of your postings
one more doesn't add anything. It is almost all repetition,
not just with the same words all over, but also with the same content.

Apart from that you have the nasty habit of turning extremely agressive
on any sane person outside your little circle of interests
who says something that makes sense.
Your vicious attack on the Kerr-Mudd was quite predictable.

You may have noticed that I left T.O. several years ago.
(apart from an occasional glance twice a year or so
to see that nothing really changed)
Your boring, agressive, and ultimately uninteresting rants
were one of the things that made T.O. less attractive to me.

Yes, the thing that RonO doesn't seem to understand is that his posting
style drives people away -- not the creationists etc, that he might
like to drive away, because they don't read his rants, but people who
in general agree with him.


--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 10:48:18 +0100
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It >>>> was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had >>>> nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up.

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more.

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post.

[there you go again]

I mentioned your excessive relative entropy.
If you already have a few years worth of your postings
one more doesn't add anything. It is almost all repetition,
not just with the same words all over, but also with the same content.

Apart from that you have the nasty habit of turning extremely agressive
on any sane person outside your little circle of interests
who says something that makes sense.
Your vicious attack on the Kerr-Mudd was quite predictable.

Nah, it wasn't viscious, just a bit nasty; I probably shouldn't have
poked the hornet's nest, but I just got a bit tired of his repetition -
there was a glimmer of (naive) hope that he might consider what he's
arguing about (and just who is arguing back?)

You may have noticed that I left T.O. several years ago.
(apart from an occasional glance twice a year or so
to see that nothing really changed)
Your boring, agressive, and ultimately uninteresting rants
were one of the things that made T.O. less attractive to me.

(Spell-check:
aggressive
)

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

broger...@gmail.com <brogers31751@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:12:04?PM UTC-5, RonO wrote:

On 12/9/2023 2:34 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 09:52:47 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It
was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had
nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up. >>>>>

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more.

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post. What happened, happened 5 years ago. The
senseless denial and blame is stupid at this point. If you did not have >> anything to add to the discussion you should have not posted anything.

[More screed snipped]

I'm not addressing your argument at all; just the repetitive use of
those key words.

You seem to be arguing into a vacuum, I doubt many here
feel the need to trawl the TO archive to rehash old battles.

I don't think you read this far.

........

Yes, you knew that you should not have posted at all. The repetition
was not an issue, until you made it an issue.

The repetition of your favorite keywords "scam," "rubes," "perps," "bait-and-switch," has been an issue for many years. It obscures your argument and alienates the people whose minds you are trying to change.
Lots of people are telling you that, mostly from the evolution side of the evolution/creation divide. Nobody has a beef with your claims about ID, nobody is running away from "the reality of what happened five years ago about the scam." People on your side of the issue are telling you that you are not communicating effectively.

Indeed, and what is worse:
he alienates first of all those people whose minds don't need changing,

Jan

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:

On 2023-12-10 09:48:18 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It >>>>>> was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had >>>>>> nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up.

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more. >>>

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post.

[there you go again]

I mentioned your excessive relative entropy.
If you already have a few years worth of your postings
one more doesn't add anything. It is almost all repetition,
not just with the same words all over, but also with the same content.

Apart from that you have the nasty habit of turning extremely agressive
on any sane person outside your little circle of interests
who says something that makes sense.
Your vicious attack on the Kerr-Mudd was quite predictable.

You may have noticed that I left T.O. several years ago.
(apart from an occasional glance twice a year or so
to see that nothing really changed)
Your boring, agressive, and ultimately uninteresting rants
were one of the things that made T.O. less attractive to me.

Yes, the thing that RonO doesn't seem to understand is that his posting
style drives people away -- not the creationists etc, that he might
like to drive away, because they don't read his rants, but people who
in general agree with him.

He also failed to notice that the American 'culture wars'
have expanded well beyond the dated trivia of intelligent design,

Jan

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:

On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 10:48:18 +0100
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps
started running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his >>>> critics. It was likely one of the main reasons that they
understood that they had nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up.

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any >>more.

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post.

[there you go again]

I mentioned your excessive relative entropy.
If you already have a few years worth of your postings
one more doesn't add anything. It is almost all repetition,
not just with the same words all over, but also with the same content.

Apart from that you have the nasty habit of turning extremely agressive
on any sane person outside your little circle of interests
who says something that makes sense.
Your vicious attack on the Kerr-Mudd was quite predictable.

Nah, it wasn't viscious, just a bit nasty;

Yes indeed, merely as nasty as he knows how to be.

I probably shouldn't have poked the hornet's nest,

Huh? Why not? What else are hornet's usenests good for?

but I just got a bit tired of his repetition -

That's rapid indeed, you've only been here for a few months.
Others here have put up with it for fifteen years or more.

there was a glimmer of (naive) hope that he might consider what he's
arguing about (and just who is arguing back?)

Yes. He lacks an adequate IFF system.

You may have noticed that I left T.O. several years ago.
(apart from an occasional glance twice a year or so
to see that nothing really changed)
Your boring, agressive, and ultimately uninteresting rants
were one of the things that made T.O. less attractive to me.

(Spell-check:
aggressive
)

Indeed. What's a gressive?

Jan

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:

Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:

On 2023-12-10 09:48:18 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It >>>>>>>> was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had >>>>>>>> nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up. >>>>>>>

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more. >>>>>

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post.

[there you go again]

I mentioned your excessive relative entropy.
If you already have a few years worth of your postings
one more doesn't add anything. It is almost all repetition,
not just with the same words all over, but also with the same content.

Apart from that you have the nasty habit of turning extremely agressive
on any sane person outside your little circle of interests
who says something that makes sense.
Your vicious attack on the Kerr-Mudd was quite predictable.

You may have noticed that I left T.O. several years ago.
(apart from an occasional glance twice a year or so
to see that nothing really changed)
Your boring, agressive, and ultimately uninteresting rants
were one of the things that made T.O. less attractive to me.

Yes, the thing that RonO doesn't seem to understand is that his posting
style drives people away -- not the creationists etc, that he might
like to drive away, because they don't read his rants, but people who
in general agree with him.

He also failed to notice that the American 'culture wars'
have expanded well beyond the dated trivia of intelligent design,

Yes, creationism has taken a backseat to other concerns for the theocratic right.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:

On 2023-12-10 09:48:18 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It >>>>>>> was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had >>>>>>> nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up.

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more. >>>>

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post.

[there you go again]

I mentioned your excessive relative entropy.
If you already have a few years worth of your postings
one more doesn't add anything. It is almost all repetition,
not just with the same words all over, but also with the same content.

Apart from that you have the nasty habit of turning extremely agressive
on any sane person outside your little circle of interests
who says something that makes sense.
Your vicious attack on the Kerr-Mudd was quite predictable.

You may have noticed that I left T.O. several years ago.
(apart from an occasional glance twice a year or so
to see that nothing really changed)
Your boring, agressive, and ultimately uninteresting rants
were one of the things that made T.O. less attractive to me.

Yes, the thing that RonO doesn't seem to understand is that his posting
style drives people away -- not the creationists etc, that he might
like to drive away, because they don't read his rants, but people who
in general agree with him.

He’s very knowledgable so when not stuck on the IDiot perps rubes autoplay algorithm or channelling the old “by their fruits” routine of yore he can make informative contributions here. It’s just that quirk that’s off-putting.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/9/2023 9:03 PM, broger...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:12:04 PM UTC-5, RonO wrote:

On 12/9/2023 2:34 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 09:52:47 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It >>>>>>>> was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had >>>>>>>> nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up. >>>>>>>

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more. >>>>>

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post. What happened, happened 5 years ago. The
senseless denial and blame is stupid at this point. If you did not have >>>> anything to add to the discussion you should have not posted anything.

[More screed snipped]

I'm not addressing your argument at all; just the repetitive use of those >>>>> key words.

You seem to be arguing into a vacuum, I doubt many here
feel the need to trawl the TO archive to rehash old battles.

I don't think you read this far.

........

Yes, you knew that you should not have posted at all. The repetition
was not an issue, until you made it an issue.

The repetition of your favorite keywords "scam," "rubes," "perps," "bait-and-switch," has been an issue for many years. It obscures your argument and alienates the people whose minds you are trying to change. Lots of people are telling you that, mostly

from the evolution side of the evolution/creation divide. Nobody has a beef with your claims about ID, nobody is running away from "the reality of what happened five years ago about the scam." People on your side of the issue are telling you that you are
not communicating effectively.

What you call repetition is just normal use of applicable terminology.
I do not over use it. If I didn't use ID perps I would have to
constantly be using something like Discovery institute intelligent
design advocate "scam artists", if I left out the scam artists it
wouldn't be as accurate, and it is just a waste of time.

This current stupidity in this thread is the incompetent harassing
poster claiming that I only used the terms once. It is just a fact that
I only use the terms as many times as they are needed to accurately
state what I am talking about. When I am talking about ID perps, I use
ID perps, and when I am talking about the IDiotic creationist rubes that
have fallen for the scam, I use rubes and IDiots.

That is how sad your take on the situation is.

The ID perps have been perpetrating the bait and switch scam on their
own creationist rube supporters for over 2 decades. That is just the
reality of the situation. Some of the rubes have been stupid and
ignorant rubes, but IDiots like Kalk were always worse than idiots and
plain rubes. That is just how things are.

It doesn't matter any more because you missed the suicide of ID on TO 5
years ago. Whining about it now is not going to change that fact, nor
bring the ID scam back to TO the way it was before the ID perps shot
themselves in the head.

Ron Okimoto

You need to just stop the whining and adjust to what reality has been
for the last 5 years. The current issue is just stupid because it will
not change reality. You all missed the boat, and blaming me isn't going
to change that fact. The TO IDiots will still have quit the ID scam due
to what the ID perps did, and not because of my correct use of
terminology. What kind of idiots had the IDiots always been?

Ron Okimoto

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/10/2023 3:48 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It >>>>>> was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had >>>>>> nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up.

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more. >>>

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post.

[there you go again]

I mentioned your excessive relative entropy.
If you already have a few years worth of your postings
one more doesn't add anything. It is almost all repetition,
not just with the same words all over, but also with the same content.

Apart from that you have the nasty habit of turning extremely agressive
on any sane person outside your little circle of interests
who says something that makes sense.
Your vicious attack on the Kerr-Mudd was quite predictable.

You may have noticed that I left T.O. several years ago.
(apart from an occasional glance twice a year or so
to see that nothing really changed)
Your boring, agressive, and ultimately uninteresting rants
were one of the things that made T.O. less attractive to me.

Best,

Jan

Kerr-Mudd started harassing me for no reason. Go up the thread. There
was no reason for Kerr-Mudd to post because Kerr-Mudd had nothing to add
to the discussion. The post was just harassment. You not understanding
the situation, reflects on you. Very negatively.

Ron Okimoto

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/10/2023 6:08 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:

broger...@gmail.com <brogers31751@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:12:04?PM UTC-5, RonO wrote:

On 12/9/2023 2:34 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 09:52:47 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>>>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It >>>>>>>>> was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had >>>>>>>>> nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up. >>>>>>>>

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more. >>>>>>

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post. What happened, happened 5 years ago. The
senseless denial and blame is stupid at this point. If you did not have >>>>> anything to add to the discussion you should have not posted anything. >>>>

[More screed snipped]

I'm not addressing your argument at all; just the repetitive use of >>>>>> those key words.

You seem to be arguing into a vacuum, I doubt many here
feel the need to trawl the TO archive to rehash old battles.

I don't think you read this far.

........

Yes, you knew that you should not have posted at all. The repetition
was not an issue, until you made it an issue.

The repetition of your favorite keywords "scam," "rubes," "perps,"
"bait-and-switch," has been an issue for many years. It obscures your
argument and alienates the people whose minds you are trying to change.
Lots of people are telling you that, mostly from the evolution side of the >> evolution/creation divide. Nobody has a beef with your claims about ID,
nobody is running away from "the reality of what happened five years ago
about the scam." People on your side of the issue are telling you that you >> are not communicating effectively.

Indeed, and what is worse:
he alienates first of all those people whose minds don't need changing,

Posts like these is what is wrong with TO. Like Broger you don't even
realize that the poster that you are defending was harassing me without
cause. The poster had no reason to post except as harassment, just
check it out.

My use of the correct terminology only alienates the people that don't
care about what the reality has been on TO, and who obviously missed out
on why the ID scam died on TO. It didn't die because I have been using
the correct terminology to describe the situation for nearly 20 years.
That has never put a dent in the dishonest effort. It has just been
making the IDiots face reality whenever they can't counter.

Everyone just has to start facing reality instead of thinking that it
isn't being nice, when there hasn't been a reason to be nice about the situation for over 2 decades. ID had never been used for anything
except as bait for over 20 years. No ID science was ever produced,
nothing positive was ever produced out of what they had. When the ID
perps understood that they didn't have the ID science to teach in the
public schools they started running the bait and switch on the
creationist rubes that wanted to believe them. The obfuscation and
denial switch scam is just the stupid obfuscation and denial that the scientific creationists would sprinkle between their gap denial
stupidity. Things like "no moths on tree trunks". The creationist
rubes do not like the switch scam, probably, because they do not want to
teach their kids enough science for them to understand what they need to
deny, but it is the only way that the ID perps could continue to push
their Wedge strategy. ID had failed as the Wedge, but could still be
used as bait. All the ID perps at the Discovery Institute signed up for
the Wedge mission of restoring some type of theocracy to our government.
They all decided to support using ID as bait in order to continue with
the original mission of the Discovery Institute. None of them protested
the change in status of ID, and none of them resigned in protest. They
all just started to support using ID as the bait.

The bait and switch has gone down on every group of IDiots that have
wanted to teach the junk. There has not been a single instance of any
IDiots getting any ID science to teach from the ID perps, ever. The ID
perps are still claiming to be able to teach ID in the public schools,
but all the rubes ever get is the switch scam. ID is really just the
bait as the only means to push the Wedge strategy forward. It is just
supposed to attract the flies and dung beetles so that they can be
convinced to support their obfuscation and denial switch scam. The ID
perps tell the rubes that the switch scam has nothing to do with ID nor creationism, and well over 90% of the rubes have dropped the issue
instead of bending over for the switch scam. The ID perps have been the
major force keeping creationism out of the public schools because of
their bait and switch strategy. The creationists do not listen to the
science side, but they will listen to the scam artists that tell them
that they really do not want to teach ID when they are the same scam
artists that sold them the scam in the first place.

Original mission statement of the ID perps: http://web.archive.org/web/19980114111554/http://discovery.org/crsc/aboutcrsc.html


The Wedge document:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy

The ID perps still using ID as the bait:
https://www.discovery.org/f/1453/

They have kept updating their teach ID scam junk about every 3 years.
The last time was in 2021, but they have since reformated the web site
and it looks like they reverted to the 2018 edition. It doesn't matter.
I don't think that they have added any new citations since the 2015
edition, and the subsequent changes have been in the graphics and layout.

The ID perps have literally just been using ID as the bait to lure in
the rubes for over 2 decades. The mission to recreate their desired
theocracy was always more important to the ID perps than was the ID
science. Supporting their religious beliefs has always been their
primary objective, and they have all been willing to use ID as bait in
order to do it.

All the ID perps at the Discovery Institute have willingly participated.
None of them have protested the bait and switch strategy employed by
the Discovery Institute. Nelson even admitted that they didn't have the
ID science early on, but he still participated in the bait and switch
scam that started in 2002 and has continued to this day.

West is one of the authors of the current teach ID scam propaganda, and
my guess is that the NCSE archives likely have his admission that ID was
not ready for prime time in some news article several months after the
bait and switch started to go down. Meyer was laying low and quit his
teaching job after running the bait and switch on Ohio, and West had to
step forward during a time when multiple groups of rubes wanted to teach
ID in their schools, but the Discovery Institute kept running the bait
and switch on all of them. Things were so bad that when the Discovery Institute participated in the Texas textbook selection that year, the ID
perps had obviously prepared to participate months ahead of time, but by
then the Discovery Institute's name was mud for many creationists as
well as real science advocates. One Discovery Institute Texan lied to
the committee about his affiliation with the Discovery Institute, and
denied what he was, and Dembski removed the Discovery Institute from the printed material that he presented to the committee. It was around this
time that West made that admission in some interview. So it is apparent
that West knew that all he was doing was continuing to use ID as bait
because he understands that there isn't any ID science worth teaching.

Perps, rubes, scam artists, IDiots are all apt terminology for the ID
scam, and have been for over 2 decades. The ID perps run the bait and
switch scam on their own creationist support base.

Ron Okimoto

Jan

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 12/10/2023 5:19 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

On 2023-12-10 09:48:18 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades.  Behe was a lost cause before that.  The ID perps started >>>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his
critics.  It
was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they >>>>>>> had
nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up.

That is all that was needed.  Your kind of post doesn't matter any
more.

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post.

[there you go again]

I mentioned your excessive relative entropy.
If you already have a few years worth of your postings
one more doesn't add anything. It is almost all repetition,
not just with the same words all over, but also with the same content.

Apart from that you have the nasty habit of turning extremely agressive
on any sane person outside your little circle of interests
who says something that makes sense.
Your vicious attack on the Kerr-Mudd was quite predictable.

You may have noticed that I left T.O. several years ago.
(apart from an occasional glance twice a year or so
 to see that nothing really changed)
Your boring, agressive, and ultimately uninteresting rants
were one of the things that made T.O. less attractive to me.

Yes, the thing that RonO doesn't seem to understand is that his posting
style drives people away -- not the  creationists etc, that he might
like to drive away, because they don't read his rants, but people who in general agree with him.

Are you Kerr-Mudd? That would explain this post. Why would I mind
driving someone like you away? Any one who can't deal with reality and
needs to harp about someone else who can, doesn't seem to be anyone
worth trying to influence.


Ron Okimoto

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 12/10/2023 5:26 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 10:48:18 +0100
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It >>>>>>> was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had >>>>>>> nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up.

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more. >>>>

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post.

[there you go again]

I mentioned your excessive relative entropy.
If you already have a few years worth of your postings
one more doesn't add anything. It is almost all repetition,
not just with the same words all over, but also with the same content.

Apart from that you have the nasty habit of turning extremely agressive
on any sane person outside your little circle of interests
who says something that makes sense.
Your vicious attack on the Kerr-Mudd was quite predictable.

Nah, it wasn't viscious, just a bit nasty; I probably shouldn't have
poked the hornet's nest, but I just got a bit tired of his repetition -
there was a glimmer of (naive) hope that he might consider what he's
arguing about (and just who is arguing back?)

You were just wrong in what you did, and look what misconceptions you
have spawned. There isn't anything wrong with what I have been doing.
Beefing about it now, just is senseless. The ID scam died 5 years ago
on TO. It is just something that everyone needs to accept and move on. Stupidity like you have spawned is what is wrong with TO at this time.

Ron Okimoto

You may have noticed that I left T.O. several years ago.
(apart from an occasional glance twice a year or so
to see that nothing really changed)
Your boring, agressive, and ultimately uninteresting rants
were one of the things that made T.O. less attractive to me.

(Spell-check:
aggressive
)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/9/2023 9:28 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 2:34 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 09:52:47 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It >>>>>>>> was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had >>>>>>>> nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up. >>>>>>>

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more. >>>>>

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post. What happened, happened 5 years ago. The
senseless denial and blame is stupid at this point. If you did not have >>>> anything to add to the discussion you should have not posted anything.

[More screed snipped]

I'm not addressing your argument at all; just the repetitive use of those >>>>> key words.

You seem to be arguing into a vacuum, I doubt many here
feel the need to trawl the TO archive to rehash old battles.

I don't think you read this far.

Yes, you knew that you should not have posted at all. The repetition
was not an issue, until you made it an issue.

You need to just stop the whining and adjust to what reality has been
for the last 5 years. The current issue is just stupid because it will
not change reality. You all missed the boat, and blaming me isn't going
to change that fact. The TO IDiots will still have quit the ID scam due
to what the ID perps did, and not because of my correct use of
terminology. What kind of idiots had the IDiots always been?

How are you going to change your approach by not falling back on the same worn out tropes? You could reply with a quick “what I usually say about perps, scam, IDiots” and it would spare us the TL;DR. Freon Bill has left the building and Pagano long before him. Do we need to recount their contributions here?

The crabbing is because you guys missed the boat on why the IDiots quit
the ID scam. It happened 5 years ago. There is no reason to beef about
my use of the correct terminology at this time, and absolutely no reason
for the harassment of the poster that the others jumped in to support.
Really, go up the thread and you will find that the poster was just
harassing me for no reason because I hadn't done what everyone claims is something bad. I only use the terminology when it is needed to be used.

Whining about this now is stupid. Everyone missed out on why ID died on
TO, and it was because of your own incompetence. Do you even realize
that all this relates to why Pagano and Bill quit the ID scam? It is
just sour grapes about missing out on the reason that they quit. A lot
of TO regulars believed that I had driven them away by badgering them
with some refutation of the Top Six, but that wasn't the case. The ID
perps had killed ID on TO by putting up the Top Six in a way that the
IDiots could not deal with them. All I had ever had to do was put them
up as the ID perps had, and demonstrate that even the ID perps couldn't
deal with them in an honest and straight forward manner. Most TO
regulars were competent enough to realize that I was telling the truth,
so they started this lame campaign as some excuse for their own
incompetence in not understanding what happened 5 year ago.

I have been using the correct terminology for the ID scam since I
started doing it just before the Dover fiasco hit the fan. If anything
the descriptions are too mild. There is no reason to keep lying to
yourselves about what the situation has been for over 20 years because
the ID perps really did kill ID on TO 5 years ago.

Ron Okimoto

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 12/10/2023 6:08 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:

Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:

On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 10:48:18 +0100
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps
started running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his >>>>>>>> critics. It was likely one of the main reasons that they
understood that they had nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up. >>>>>>>

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any >>>>>> more.

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post.

[there you go again]

I mentioned your excessive relative entropy.
If you already have a few years worth of your postings
one more doesn't add anything. It is almost all repetition,
not just with the same words all over, but also with the same content.

Apart from that you have the nasty habit of turning extremely agressive
on any sane person outside your little circle of interests
who says something that makes sense.
Your vicious attack on the Kerr-Mudd was quite predictable.

Nah, it wasn't viscious, just a bit nasty;

Yes indeed, merely as nasty as he knows how to be.

I probably shouldn't have poked the hornet's nest,

Huh? Why not? What else are hornet's usenests good for?

This what is wrong with TO at this time.

Ron Okimoto

but I just got a bit tired of his repetition -

That's rapid indeed, you've only been here for a few months.
Others here have put up with it for fifteen years or more.

there was a glimmer of (naive) hope that he might consider what he's
arguing about (and just who is arguing back?)

Yes. He lacks an adequate IFF system.

You may have noticed that I left T.O. several years ago.
(apart from an occasional glance twice a year or so
to see that nothing really changed)
Your boring, agressive, and ultimately uninteresting rants
were one of the things that made T.O. less attractive to me.

(Spell-check:
aggressive
)

Indeed. What's a gressive?

Jan

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 12/10/2023 3:26 AM, Martin Harran wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600, RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started
running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It >>>> was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had
nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up.

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more.
There is no reason for the rest of TO to keep lying about what the ID
scam has been all these years. Everyone should have faced that reality
long ago. ID died on TO 5 years ago.

Why then do you feel the need to post so much about it on TO?

[...]

Because it is still a topic of discussion on TO even though most of the
IDiots quit. MarkE has even started supporting the ID scam as some last
ditch effort to keep supporting his religious beliefs. MarkE has been
the anti-evolution creationists that never seemed to have bought into
the ID scam until it died on TO, and he started to try to continue to
put up the Top Six one at a time in order to keep the creationist denial
alive.

The ID perps keep using ID as the bait, and haven't quit even if they
don't seem to have very many creationist willing to support the effort.
Nyikos has kept the topic up on TO because of his need to lie about it
all the time. Glenn kept supporting the ID scam even though he had to
run from their best evidence. He did that until Nyikos had to start
lying about something else after the last holy water repost shut down
that series of repetitive Nyikosian lies, and pretty much killed Glenn's posting on TO by trying to defend the way in which Glenn had been
running from the Top Six. Nyikos uncovered just why all the other
IDiots had quit due to the Top Six, and Glenn likely could no longer
stay willfully ignorant of reality because he had initially supported
Nyikos' ignorant efforts. Really, Nyikos was clueless about why all the
other IDiots had quit the ID scam, and when Nyikos understood what had happened, some of it splashed on Glenn in a way he could not lie to
himself about it. Dean would just come back to posting to TO after long
breaks and claim that he did not recall his previous encounters with the
Top Six. He is just too incompetent to realize what all the other
IDiots had realized 5 years ago.

The ID scam is still a topic of discusson on TO. The support for the
effort is just not what it used to be.

Ron Okimoto

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 9:28 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 2:34 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 09:52:47 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>>>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It
was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had >>>>>>>>> nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up. >>>>>>>>

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more.

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post. What happened, happened 5 years ago. The >>>>> senseless denial and blame is stupid at this point. If you did not have >>>>> anything to add to the discussion you should have not posted anything. >>>>

[More screed snipped]

I'm not addressing your argument at all; just the repetitive use of those
key words.

You seem to be arguing into a vacuum, I doubt many here
feel the need to trawl the TO archive to rehash old battles.

I don't think you read this far.

Yes, you knew that you should not have posted at all. The repetition
was not an issue, until you made it an issue.

You need to just stop the whining and adjust to what reality has been
for the last 5 years. The current issue is just stupid because it will
not change reality. You all missed the boat, and blaming me isn't going >>> to change that fact. The TO IDiots will still have quit the ID scam due >>> to what the ID perps did, and not because of my correct use of
terminology. What kind of idiots had the IDiots always been?

How are you going to change your approach by not falling back on the same
worn out tropes? You could reply with a quick “what I usually say about
perps, scam, IDiots” and it would spare us the TL;DR. Freon Bill has left >> the building and Pagano long before him. Do we need to recount their
contributions here?

The crabbing is because you guys missed the boat on why the IDiots quit
the ID scam. It happened 5 years ago. There is no reason to beef about
my use of the correct terminology at this time, and absolutely no reason
for the harassment of the poster that the others jumped in to support. Really, go up the thread and you will find that the poster was just
harassing me for no reason because I hadn't done what everyone claims is something bad. I only use the terminology when it is needed to be used.

Whining about this now is stupid. Everyone missed out on why ID died on
TO, and it was because of your own incompetence. Do you even realize
that all this relates to why Pagano and Bill quit the ID scam? It is
just sour grapes about missing out on the reason that they quit. A lot
of TO regulars believed that I had driven them away by badgering them
with some refutation of the Top Six, but that wasn't the case. The ID
perps had killed ID on TO by putting up the Top Six in a way that the
IDiots could not deal with them. All I had ever had to do was put them
up as the ID perps had, and demonstrate that even the ID perps couldn't
deal with them in an honest and straight forward manner. Most TO
regulars were competent enough to realize that I was telling the truth,
so they started this lame campaign as some excuse for their own
incompetence in not understanding what happened 5 year ago.

I have been using the correct terminology for the ID scam since I
started doing it just before the Dover fiasco hit the fan. If anything
the descriptions are too mild. There is no reason to keep lying to yourselves about what the situation has been for over 20 years because
the ID perps really did kill ID on TO 5 years ago.

I fail to see the significance of Bill and Pags allegedly quitting some
scam they didn’t seem to represent well nor were they key players. I also fail to see what bearing my own incompetence has on the big picture,
whatever that is. I am insignificant. And I fail to see what importance
events on some backwater usenet forum have had for a larger world which has
no awareness of said events. How could ID have *died here* and what role
could you or anyone else posting here have played in that non-event?
Repetition doesn’t increase truth value.

How much is this about you and not alleged events 5 years ago? You say ID
perps killed ID here but you seem to be playing a star role with the Top
Six. Was it truly a good effect or could calling attention to a phantom be detrimental? I’m hinting at a key article Anthony Greenwald, but will keep that on the DL for now.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/10/2023 5:26 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 10:48:18 +0100
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It >>>>>>>> was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had >>>>>>>> nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up. >>>>>>>

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more. >>>>>

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post.

[there you go again]

I mentioned your excessive relative entropy.
If you already have a few years worth of your postings
one more doesn't add anything. It is almost all repetition,
not just with the same words all over, but also with the same content.

Apart from that you have the nasty habit of turning extremely agressive
on any sane person outside your little circle of interests
who says something that makes sense.
Your vicious attack on the Kerr-Mudd was quite predictable.

Nah, it wasn't viscious, just a bit nasty; I probably shouldn't have
poked the hornet's nest, but I just got a bit tired of his repetition -
there was a glimmer of (naive) hope that he might consider what he's
arguing about (and just who is arguing back?)

You were just wrong in what you did, and look what misconceptions you
have spawned. There isn't anything wrong with what I have been doing. Beefing about it now, just is senseless. The ID scam died 5 years ago
on TO. It is just something that everyone needs to accept and move on. Stupidity like you have spawned is what is wrong with TO at this time.

Can you accept it and move on? How much of this recycling of events and personalities is rumination? Maybe any self focus on your part is in
reaction to the current spotlight, which is understandable. But you seem
very stuck on this topic.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 12/9/23 7:03 PM, broger...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:12:04 PM UTC-5, RonO wrote:

On 12/9/2023 2:34 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 09:52:47 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It >>>>>>>> was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had >>>>>>>> nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up. >>>>>>>

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more. >>>>>

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post. What happened, happened 5 years ago. The
senseless denial and blame is stupid at this point. If you did not have >>>> anything to add to the discussion you should have not posted anything.

[More screed snipped]

I'm not addressing your argument at all; just the repetitive use of those >>>>> key words.

You seem to be arguing into a vacuum, I doubt many here
feel the need to trawl the TO archive to rehash old battles.

I don't think you read this far.

........

Yes, you knew that you should not have posted at all. The repetition
was not an issue, until you made it an issue.

The repetition of your favorite keywords "scam," "rubes," "perps," "bait-and-switch," has been an issue for many years. It obscures your argument and alienates the people whose minds you are trying to change. Lots of people are telling you that, mostly

from the evolution side of the evolution/creation divide. Nobody has a beef with your claims about ID, nobody is running away from "the reality of what happened five years ago about the scam." People on your side of the issue are telling you that you are
not communicating effectively.

I predict that, after reading what you wrote, Ron O. will have no idea
what you wrote. He will have seen something completely different.

--
Mark Isaak
"Wisdom begins when you discover the difference between 'That
doesn't make sense' and 'I don't understand.'" - Mary Doria Russell

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/10/2023 6:08 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:

broger...@gmail.com <brogers31751@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:12:04?PM UTC-5, RonO wrote:

On 12/9/2023 2:34 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 09:52:47 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>>>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his
critics. It was likely one of the main reasons that they
understood that they had nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up. >>>>>>>>

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any >>>>>>>more.

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post. What happened, happened 5 years ago. The >>>>> senseless denial and blame is stupid at this point. If you did not have >>>>> anything to add to the discussion you should have not posted anything. >>>>

[More screed snipped]

I'm not addressing your argument at all; just the repetitive use of >>>>>> those key words.

You seem to be arguing into a vacuum, I doubt many here
feel the need to trawl the TO archive to rehash old battles.

I don't think you read this far.

........

Yes, you knew that you should not have posted at all. The repetition
was not an issue, until you made it an issue.

The repetition of your favorite keywords "scam," "rubes," "perps,"
"bait-and-switch," has been an issue for many years. It obscures your
argument and alienates the people whose minds you are trying to change.
Lots of people are telling you that, mostly from the evolution side of the >> evolution/creation divide. Nobody has a beef with your claims about ID,
nobody is running away from "the reality of what happened five years ago >> about the scam." People on your side of the issue are telling you that you >> are not communicating effectively.

Indeed, and what is worse:
he alienates first of all those people whose minds don't need changing,

Posts like these is what is wrong with TO. Like Broger you don't even realize that the poster that you are defending was harassing me without cause. The poster had no reason to post except as harassment, just
check it out.

[repeats, more of the same]

Can't you see that most of what is wrong with T.O.
is YOUR endless repetitive ranting?

Jan

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 09:23:52 -0800
Mark Isaak <specimenNOSPAM@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:

On 12/9/23 7:03 PM, broger...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:12:04 PM UTC-5, RonO wrote:

On 12/9/2023 2:34 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 09:52:47 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It
was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had
nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up. >>>>>>>

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more.

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post. What happened, happened 5 years ago. The
senseless denial and blame is stupid at this point. If you did not have >>>> anything to add to the discussion you should have not posted anything. >>>

[More screed snipped]

I'm not addressing your argument at all; just the repetitive use of those
key words.

You seem to be arguing into a vacuum, I doubt many here
feel the need to trawl the TO archive to rehash old battles.

I don't think you read this far.

........

Yes, you knew that you should not have posted at all. The repetition
was not an issue, until you made it an issue.

The repetition of your favorite keywords "scam," "rubes," "perps," "bait-and-switch," has been an issue for many years. It obscures your argument and alienates the people whose minds you are trying to change. Lots of people are telling you that,

mostly from the evolution side of the evolution/creation divide. Nobody has a beef with your claims about ID, nobody is running away from "the reality of what happened five years ago about the scam." People on your side of the issue are telling you that
you are not communicating effectively.

I predict that, after reading what you wrote, Ron O. will have no idea
what you wrote. He will have seen something completely different.

I seem to be harrassing RonO about it. Maybe he thinks I'm an ID perp, he certainly does go into full-fledged rant-mode very easily.

I think I'll just leave it, now I know there no getting through.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 2023-12-10 17:28:32 +0000, Kerr-Mudd, John said:

On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 09:23:52 -0800
Mark Isaak <specimenNOSPAM@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:

On 12/9/23 7:03 PM, broger...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:12:04 PM UTC-5, RonO wrote:

On 12/9/2023 2:34 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 09:52:47 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>>>>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It
was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had
nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up. >>>>>>>>>

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more.

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post. What happened, happened 5 years ago. The >>>>>> senseless denial and blame is stupid at this point. If you did not have >>>>>> anything to add to the discussion you should have not posted anything. >>>>>

[More screed snipped]

I'm not addressing your argument at all; just the repetitive use of those
key words.

You seem to be arguing into a vacuum, I doubt many here
feel the need to trawl the TO archive to rehash old battles.

I don't think you read this far.

........

Yes, you knew that you should not have posted at all. The repetition
was not an issue, until you made it an issue.

The repetition of your favorite keywords "scam," "rubes," "perps,"
"bait-and-switch," has been an issue for many years. It obscures your
argument and alienates the people whose minds you are trying to change.
Lots of people are telling you that, mostly from the evolution side of
the evolution/creation divide. Nobody has a beef with your claims about
ID, nobody is running away from "the reality of what happened five
years ago about the scam." People on your side of the issue are telling
you that you are not communicating effectively.

I predict that, after reading what you wrote, Ron O. will have no idea
what you wrote. He will have seen something completely different.

I seem to be harrassing RonO about it. Maybe he thinks I'm an ID perp, he certainly does go into full-fledged rant-mode very easily.

I think I'll just leave it, now I know there no getting through.

Yes. It's hopeless. You might as well try to persuade the other Ron to
read up a bit on topics he doesn't understand before pontificating
about them.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/10/2023 11:23 AM, Mark Isaak wrote:

On 12/9/23 7:03 PM, broger...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:12:04 PM UTC-5, RonO wrote:

On 12/9/2023 2:34 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 09:52:47 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>>>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his
critics. It
was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that >>>>>>>>> they had
nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up. >>>>>>>>

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any >>>>>>> more.

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post. What happened, happened 5 years ago. The
senseless denial and blame is stupid at this point. If you did not
have
anything to add to the discussion you should have not posted anything. >>>>

[More screed snipped]

I'm not addressing your argument at all; just the repetitive use
of those
key words.

You seem to be arguing into a vacuum, I doubt many here
feel the need to trawl the TO archive to rehash old battles.

I don't think you read this far.

........

Yes, you knew that you should not have posted at all. The repetition
was not an issue, until you made it an issue.

The repetition of your favorite keywords "scam," "rubes," "perps,"
"bait-and-switch," has been an issue for many years. It obscures your
argument and alienates the people whose minds you are trying to
change. Lots of people are telling you that, mostly from the evolution
side of the evolution/creation divide. Nobody has a beef with your
claims about ID, nobody is running away from "the reality of what
happened five years ago about the scam." People on your side of the
issue are telling you that you are not communicating effectively.

I predict that, after reading what you wrote, Ron O. will have no idea
what you wrote.  He will have seen something completely different.

It is you that should be ashamed of yourself for what you have done on
TO to spawn this stupidity. You just missed out on why the ID scam died
on TO. This won't change that. It happened 5 years ago, and what you
have spawned is the worst of what happens on TO. At one time you might
have been able to understand that.

Ron Okimoto

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 12/10/2023 10:46 AM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 9:28 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 2:34 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 09:52:47 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>>>>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It
was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had
nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up. >>>>>>>>>

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more.

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post. What happened, happened 5 years ago. The >>>>>> senseless denial and blame is stupid at this point. If you did not have >>>>>> anything to add to the discussion you should have not posted anything. >>>>>

[More screed snipped]

I'm not addressing your argument at all; just the repetitive use of those
key words.

You seem to be arguing into a vacuum, I doubt many here
feel the need to trawl the TO archive to rehash old battles.

I don't think you read this far.

Yes, you knew that you should not have posted at all. The repetition
was not an issue, until you made it an issue.

You need to just stop the whining and adjust to what reality has been
for the last 5 years. The current issue is just stupid because it will >>>> not change reality. You all missed the boat, and blaming me isn't going >>>> to change that fact. The TO IDiots will still have quit the ID scam due >>>> to what the ID perps did, and not because of my correct use of
terminology. What kind of idiots had the IDiots always been?

How are you going to change your approach by not falling back on the same >>> worn out tropes? You could reply with a quick “what I usually say about >>> perps, scam, IDiots” and it would spare us the TL;DR. Freon Bill has left >>> the building and Pagano long before him. Do we need to recount their
contributions here?

The crabbing is because you guys missed the boat on why the IDiots quit
the ID scam. It happened 5 years ago. There is no reason to beef about
my use of the correct terminology at this time, and absolutely no reason
for the harassment of the poster that the others jumped in to support.
Really, go up the thread and you will find that the poster was just
harassing me for no reason because I hadn't done what everyone claims is
something bad. I only use the terminology when it is needed to be used.

Whining about this now is stupid. Everyone missed out on why ID died on
TO, and it was because of your own incompetence. Do you even realize
that all this relates to why Pagano and Bill quit the ID scam? It is
just sour grapes about missing out on the reason that they quit. A lot
of TO regulars believed that I had driven them away by badgering them
with some refutation of the Top Six, but that wasn't the case. The ID
perps had killed ID on TO by putting up the Top Six in a way that the
IDiots could not deal with them. All I had ever had to do was put them
up as the ID perps had, and demonstrate that even the ID perps couldn't
deal with them in an honest and straight forward manner. Most TO
regulars were competent enough to realize that I was telling the truth,
so they started this lame campaign as some excuse for their own
incompetence in not understanding what happened 5 year ago.

I have been using the correct terminology for the ID scam since I
started doing it just before the Dover fiasco hit the fan. If anything
the descriptions are too mild. There is no reason to keep lying to
yourselves about what the situation has been for over 20 years because
the ID perps really did kill ID on TO 5 years ago.

I fail to see the significance of Bill and Pags allegedly quitting some
scam they didn’t seem to represent well nor were they key players. I also fail to see what bearing my own incompetence has on the big picture,
whatever that is. I am insignificant. And I fail to see what importance events on some backwater usenet forum have had for a larger world which has no awareness of said events. How could ID have *died here* and what role could you or anyone else posting here have played in that non-event? Repetition doesn’t increase truth value.

How sad is it that you are participating with the others and you do not
know why they are doing it?

This whining about my use for the correct terminology as it has applied
to the ID scam for decades is due to the fact that Mark Isaak and some
others started in on it after they realized that they had missed out on
why Pagano and Bill had quit the ID scam. They had wrongly blamed me
for chasing them away, and they didn't have a clue as to why the ID scam
had died on TO. It was around 4 years after it had occurred and no one
was going to do anything about it by falsely blaming someone for what
happened. They realized that they had screwed up, but had to continue
to claim that I was somehow at fault for their own incompetence, and
they started to whine about my correct use of the terminology that I
have been using since just before Dover hit the fan and demonstrated
that it was the correct terminology for what was going on. One of them
claimed that it had dulled their awareness to how stupid and dishonest
the ID scam had been, so that they missed the ID perps committing
suicide on TO.

Others have just piled on and display the worst aspects of TO. A lot of
them are doing it because they do not understand what the issue actually
was, and they don't care.

The ID scam died on TO because the ID perps were stupid enough to put
out their Top Six best god-of-the-gaps denial stupidity as a related
whole, and not as the individual fire and forget denial that the
creationists had been using since the scientific creationists were using
the same gap denial over a decade before the ID scam existed. It turned
out that most of the TO IDiots had never wanted the ID perps to
accomplish any ID science, and they definitely did not want to support
the ID perps if all they could expect is more science to deny. None of
them wanted to believe in the designer that filled those gaps in the
order in which they must have logically occurred in this universe. This happened 5 years ago, and the stupidity about my correct usage of common terminology is not going to change what happened nor absolve anyone of
their own incompetence.

Ron Okimoto

How much is this about you and not alleged events 5 years ago? You say ID perps killed ID here but you seem to be playing a star role with the Top
Six. Was it truly a good effect or could calling attention to a phantom be detrimental? I’m hinting at a key article Anthony Greenwald, but will keep that on the DL for now.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/10/2023 11:38 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/10/2023 6:08 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:

broger...@gmail.com <brogers31751@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:12:04?PM UTC-5, RonO wrote:

On 12/9/2023 2:34 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 09:52:47 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>>>>>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his >>>>>>>>>>> critics. It was likely one of the main reasons that they >>>>>>>>>>> understood that they had nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up. >>>>>>>>>>

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any >>>>>>>>> more.

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post. What happened, happened 5 years ago. The >>>>>>> senseless denial and blame is stupid at this point. If you did not have >>>>>>> anything to add to the discussion you should have not posted anything. >>>>>>

[More screed snipped]

I'm not addressing your argument at all; just the repetitive use of >>>>>>>> those key words.

You seem to be arguing into a vacuum, I doubt many here
feel the need to trawl the TO archive to rehash old battles.

I don't think you read this far.

........

Yes, you knew that you should not have posted at all. The repetition >>>>> was not an issue, until you made it an issue.

The repetition of your favorite keywords "scam," "rubes," "perps,"
"bait-and-switch," has been an issue for many years. It obscures your
argument and alienates the people whose minds you are trying to change. >>>> Lots of people are telling you that, mostly from the evolution side of the >>>> evolution/creation divide. Nobody has a beef with your claims about ID, >>>> nobody is running away from "the reality of what happened five years ago >>>> about the scam." People on your side of the issue are telling you that you >>>> are not communicating effectively.

Indeed, and what is worse:
he alienates first of all those people whose minds don't need changing,

Posts like these is what is wrong with TO. Like Broger you don't even
realize that the poster that you are defending was harassing me without
cause. The poster had no reason to post except as harassment, just
check it out.

[repeats, more of the same]

Can't you see that most of what is wrong with T.O.
is YOUR endless repetitive ranting?

Jan

You are participating in the worst of TO. Not wanting to understand
what the issue actually was and how stupid the initial harassment was,
reflects negatively on you. You may have been ignorant, but now you are willfully ignorant in order to continue. Why blame the messenger? It
is you that are participating in unwarranted harassment for reasons that
were just excuses. The repetition has been neccessary because you claim
to not understand what this is all about. If you understood what was
going on, I would not have to repeat it.

You might want to get Mark Isaac to fill you in on what is going on. He started this campaign and you can ask him why he did it. He has a
pretty sad and stupid reason. It is simply sour grapes about not
understanding why the IDiots then posting on TO quit the ID scam 5 years
ago.

Think for just one moment. Why do you care how many times I have to
identify the ID perps as perps in any post about what they are doing?
Reality is sad isn't it?

Ron Okimoto

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/10/2023 11:28 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 09:23:52 -0800
Mark Isaak <specimenNOSPAM@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:

On 12/9/23 7:03 PM, broger...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:12:04 PM UTC-5, RonO wrote:

On 12/9/2023 2:34 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 09:52:47 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>>>>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It
was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had
nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up. >>>>>>>>>

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more.

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post. What happened, happened 5 years ago. The >>>>>> senseless denial and blame is stupid at this point. If you did not have >>>>>> anything to add to the discussion you should have not posted anything. >>>>>

[More screed snipped]

I'm not addressing your argument at all; just the repetitive use of those
key words.

You seem to be arguing into a vacuum, I doubt many here
feel the need to trawl the TO archive to rehash old battles.

I don't think you read this far.

........

Yes, you knew that you should not have posted at all. The repetition
was not an issue, until you made it an issue.

The repetition of your favorite keywords "scam," "rubes," "perps," "bait-and-switch," has been an issue for many years. It obscures your argument and alienates the people whose minds you are trying to change. Lots of people are telling you that,

mostly from the evolution side of the evolution/creation divide. Nobody has a beef with your claims about ID, nobody is running away from "the reality of what happened five years ago about the scam." People on your side of the issue are telling you that
you are not communicating effectively.

I predict that, after reading what you wrote, Ron O. will have no idea
what you wrote. He will have seen something completely different.

I seem to be harrassing RonO about it. Maybe he thinks I'm an ID perp, he certainly does go into full-fledged rant-mode very easily.

I think I'll just leave it, now I know there no getting through.

This is how sad this fiasco has become. Mark Isaac started it for his
own stupid reasons, and the rest of TO picked it up because you guys
have nothing else to snark about. You were harassing me, and that is
not in question. Your post had no other reason for existing. The fact
that you were harassing me without understand why you were doing it, is
even sadder. This is a non issue and you should be competent enough to understand that. This is the worst of TO.

What you might do is try to get Mark to explain why he started this
mess. At least you would know what you have been doing by joining in.

Ron Okimoto

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/10/2023 11:57 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

On 2023-12-10 17:28:32 +0000, Kerr-Mudd, John said:

On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 09:23:52 -0800
Mark Isaak <specimenNOSPAM@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:

On 12/9/23 7:03 PM, broger...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:12:04 PM UTC-5, RonO wrote:

On 12/9/2023 2:34 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 09:52:47 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>>>>>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his >>>>>>>>>>> critics. It
was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that >>>>>>>>>>> they had
nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up. >>>>>>>>>>

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter >>>>>>>>> any more.

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post. What happened, happened 5 years ago. The >>>>>>> senseless denial and blame is stupid at this point. If you did
not have
anything to add to the discussion you should have not posted
anything.

[More screed snipped]

I'm not addressing your argument at all; just the repetitive use >>>>>>>> of those
key words.

You seem to be arguing into a vacuum, I doubt many here
feel the need to trawl the TO archive to rehash old battles.

I don't think you read this far.

........

Yes, you knew that you should not have posted at all. The repetition >>>>> was not an issue, until you made it an issue.

The repetition of your favorite keywords "scam," "rubes," "perps,"
"bait-and-switch," has been an issue for many years. It obscures
your argument and alienates the people whose minds you are trying to
change. Lots of people are telling you that, mostly from the
evolution side of the evolution/creation divide. Nobody has a beef
with your claims about ID, nobody is running away from "the reality
of what happened five years ago about the scam." People on your side
of the issue are telling you that you are not communicating
effectively.

I predict that, after reading what you wrote, Ron O. will have no idea
what you wrote.  He will have seen something completely different.

I seem to be harrassing RonO about it. Maybe he thinks I'm an ID perp, he
certainly does go into full-fledged rant-mode very easily.

I think I'll just leave it, now I know there no getting through.

Yes. It's hopeless. You might as well try to persuade the other Ron to
read up a bit on topics he doesn't understand before pontificating about them.

Why believe the guy. He knows that he was harassing me. There was no
other reason for the existence of the post. Do you even know what you
are agreeing with?

You guys should get together and figure out just what is going on if you
can be honest enough with each other to do that.

Get Mark Isaac to tell you why he started the stupid issue. It hadn't
mattered for over 15 years, so ask him why it started to matter. An
excuse to cover one's own incompetence isn't any type of valid excuse
for doing something this stupid. It isn't going to change what happened
5 years ago.

Ron Okimoto

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2023-12-10 5:19 PM, RonO wrote:

On 12/10/2023 11:57 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

On 2023-12-10 17:28:32 +0000, Kerr-Mudd, John said:

On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 09:23:52 -0800
Mark Isaak <specimenNOSPAM@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:

On 12/9/23 7:03 PM, broger...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:12:04 PM UTC-5, RonO wrote:

On 12/9/2023 2:34 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 09:52:47 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps >>>>>>>>>>>> started
running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his >>>>>>>>>>>> critics. It
was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that >>>>>>>>>>>> they had
nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up. >>>>>>>>>>>

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter >>>>>>>>>> any more.

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post. What happened, happened 5 years ago. The >>>>>>>> senseless denial and blame is stupid at this point. If you did >>>>>>>> not have
anything to add to the discussion you should have not posted
anything.

[More screed snipped]

I'm not addressing your argument at all; just the repetitive >>>>>>>>> use of those
key words.

You seem to be arguing into a vacuum, I doubt many here
feel the need to trawl the TO archive to rehash old battles. >>>>>>>>>

I don't think you read this far.

........

Yes, you knew that you should not have posted at all. The repetition >>>>>> was not an issue, until you made it an issue.

The repetition of your favorite keywords "scam," "rubes," "perps,"
"bait-and-switch," has been an issue for many years. It obscures
your argument and alienates the people whose minds you are trying
to change. Lots of people are telling you that, mostly from the
evolution side of the evolution/creation divide. Nobody has a beef
with your claims about ID, nobody is running away from "the reality
of what happened five years ago about the scam." People on your
side of the issue are telling you that you are not communicating
effectively.

I predict that, after reading what you wrote, Ron O. will have no idea >>>> what you wrote.  He will have seen something completely different.

I seem to be harrassing RonO about it. Maybe he thinks I'm an ID
perp, he
certainly does go into full-fledged rant-mode very easily.

I think I'll just leave it, now I know there no getting through.

Yes. It's hopeless. You might as well try to persuade the other Ron to
read up a bit on topics he doesn't understand before pontificating
about them.

Why believe the guy.  He knows that he was harassing me.  There was no other reason for the existence of the post.  Do you even know what you
are agreeing with?

You guys should get together and figure out just what is going on if you
can be honest enough with each other to do that.

Get Mark Isaac to tell you why he started the stupid issue.  It hadn't mattered for over 15 years, so ask him why it started to matter.  An
excuse to cover one's own incompetence isn't any type of valid excuse
for doing something this stupid.  It isn't going to change what happened
5 years ago.

Ron Okimoto

Bye Ron.
--
--
Don Cates ("he's a cunning rascal" PN)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 17:04:56 -0600, RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote in <ul5g6n$2rh5f$1@dont-email.me>:

On 12/10/2023 11:38 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/10/2023 6:08 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:

broger...@gmail.com <brogers31751@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:12:04?PM UTC-5, RonO wrote:

On 12/9/2023 2:34 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 09:52:47 -0600 RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600 RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600 RonO <roki...@cox.net> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps >>>>>>>>>>>> started running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to >>>>>>>>>>>> his critics. It was likely one of the main reasons that they >>>>>>>>>>>> understood that they had nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it >>>>>>>>>>> up.

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter >>>>>>>>>> any more.

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post. What happened, happened 5 years ago. >>>>>>>> The senseless denial and blame is stupid at this point. If you >>>>>>>> did not have anything to add to the discussion you should have >>>>>>>> not posted anything.

[More screed snipped]

I'm not addressing your argument at all; just the repetitive use >>>>>>>>> of those key words.

You seem to be arguing into a vacuum, I doubt many here feel the >>>>>>>>> need to trawl the TO archive to rehash old battles.

I don't think you read this far.

........

Yes, you knew that you should not have posted at all. The
repetition was not an issue, until you made it an issue.

The repetition of your favorite keywords "scam," "rubes," "perps,"
"bait-and-switch," has been an issue for many years. It obscures
your argument and alienates the people whose minds you are trying to >>>>> change. Lots of people are telling you that, mostly from the
evolution side of the evolution/creation divide. Nobody has a beef
with your claims about ID, nobody is running away from "the reality
of what happened five years ago about the scam." People on your side >>>>> of the issue are telling you that you are not communicating
effectively.

Indeed, and what is worse:
he alienates first of all those people whose minds don't need
changing,

Posts like these is what is wrong with TO. Like Broger you don't even
realize that the poster that you are defending was harassing me
without cause. The poster had no reason to post except as harassment,
just check it out.

[repeats, more of the same]

Can't you see that most of what is wrong with T.O.
is YOUR endless repetitive ranting?

Jan

You are participating in the worst of TO. Not wanting to understand
what the issue actually was and how stupid the initial harassment was, reflects negatively on you. You may have been ignorant, but now you are willfully ignorant in order to continue. Why blame the messenger? It
is you that are participating in unwarranted harassment for reasons that
were just excuses. The repetition has been neccessary because you claim
to not understand what this is all about. If you understood what was
going on, I would not have to repeat it.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _
Argumentum ad nauseam
This is the incorrect belief that an assertion is more likely to be true,
or is more likely to be accepted as true, the more often it is heard. So
an Argumentum ad Nauseam is one that employs constant repetition in
asserting something; saying the same thing over and over again until
you’re sick of hearing it.

On the Net, your argument is often less likely to be heard if you repeat
it over and over again, as people will tend to put you in their kill
files.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

https://infidels.org/library/modern/constructing-a-logical-argument/
#nauseam

Additionally: Someone criticizing you on the USENET isn't "harrassment".

Ad nauseum is a logical fallacy. You are perfectly free to post
logical fallacies, but don't expect much respect for your arguments.

Ron Okimoto

--
-v

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/11/2023 1:33 AM, vallor wrote:

On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 17:04:56 -0600, RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote in <ul5g6n$2rh5f$1@dont-email.me>:

On 12/10/2023 11:38 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/10/2023 6:08 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:

broger...@gmail.com <brogers31751@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:12:04?PM UTC-5, RonO wrote:

On 12/9/2023 2:34 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 09:52:47 -0600 RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600 RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600 RonO <roki...@cox.net> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps >>>>>>>>>>>>> started running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to >>>>>>>>>>>>> his critics. It was likely one of the main reasons that they >>>>>>>>>>>>> understood that they had nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it >>>>>>>>>>>> up.

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter >>>>>>>>>>> any more.

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post. What happened, happened 5 years ago. >>>>>>>>> The senseless denial and blame is stupid at this point. If you >>>>>>>>> did not have anything to add to the discussion you should have >>>>>>>>> not posted anything.

[More screed snipped]

I'm not addressing your argument at all; just the repetitive use >>>>>>>>>> of those key words.

You seem to be arguing into a vacuum, I doubt many here feel the >>>>>>>>>> need to trawl the TO archive to rehash old battles.

I don't think you read this far.

........

Yes, you knew that you should not have posted at all. The
repetition was not an issue, until you made it an issue.

The repetition of your favorite keywords "scam," "rubes," "perps," >>>>>> "bait-and-switch," has been an issue for many years. It obscures
your argument and alienates the people whose minds you are trying to >>>>>> change. Lots of people are telling you that, mostly from the
evolution side of the evolution/creation divide. Nobody has a beef >>>>>> with your claims about ID, nobody is running away from "the reality >>>>>> of what happened five years ago about the scam." People on your side >>>>>> of the issue are telling you that you are not communicating
effectively.

Indeed, and what is worse:
he alienates first of all those people whose minds don't need
changing,

Posts like these is what is wrong with TO. Like Broger you don't even >>>> realize that the poster that you are defending was harassing me
without cause. The poster had no reason to post except as harassment, >>>> just check it out.

[repeats, more of the same]

Can't you see that most of what is wrong with T.O.
is YOUR endless repetitive ranting?

Jan

You are participating in the worst of TO. Not wanting to understand
what the issue actually was and how stupid the initial harassment was,
reflects negatively on you. You may have been ignorant, but now you are
willfully ignorant in order to continue. Why blame the messenger? It
is you that are participating in unwarranted harassment for reasons that
were just excuses. The repetition has been neccessary because you claim
to not understand what this is all about. If you understood what was
going on, I would not have to repeat it.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _
Argumentum ad nauseam
This is the incorrect belief that an assertion is more likely to be true,
or is more likely to be accepted as true, the more often it is heard. So
an Argumentum ad Nauseam is one that employs constant repetition in
asserting something; saying the same thing over and over again until
you’re sick of hearing it.

On the Net, your argument is often less likely to be heard if you repeat
it over and over again, as people will tend to put you in their kill
files.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

https://infidels.org/library/modern/constructing-a-logical-argument/
#nauseam

Additionally: Someone criticizing you on the USENET isn't "harrassment".

Ad nauseum is a logical fallacy. You are perfectly free to post
logical fallacies, but don't expect much respect for your arguments.

Ron Okimoto

Willful ignorance will not absolve you of what you did. You should just
try to figure out what the situation actually was. If that doesn't mean anything to you, that is your loss.

Ron Okimoto

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/10/2023 9:36 PM, DB Cates wrote:

On 2023-12-10 5:19 PM, RonO wrote:

On 12/10/2023 11:57 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

On 2023-12-10 17:28:32 +0000, Kerr-Mudd, John said:

On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 09:23:52 -0800
Mark Isaak <specimenNOSPAM@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:

On 12/9/23 7:03 PM, broger...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:12:04 PM UTC-5, RonO wrote:

On 12/9/2023 2:34 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 09:52:47 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps >>>>>>>>>>>>> started
running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his >>>>>>>>>>>>> critics. It
was likely one of the main reasons that they understood >>>>>>>>>>>>> that they had
nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it >>>>>>>>>>>> up.

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter >>>>>>>>>>> any more.

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post. What happened, happened 5 years ago. The >>>>>>>>> senseless denial and blame is stupid at this point. If you did >>>>>>>>> not have
anything to add to the discussion you should have not posted >>>>>>>>> anything.

[More screed snipped]

I'm not addressing your argument at all; just the repetitive >>>>>>>>>> use of those
key words.

You seem to be arguing into a vacuum, I doubt many here
feel the need to trawl the TO archive to rehash old battles. >>>>>>>>>>

I don't think you read this far.

........

Yes, you knew that you should not have posted at all. The repetition >>>>>>> was not an issue, until you made it an issue.

The repetition of your favorite keywords "scam," "rubes," "perps," >>>>>> "bait-and-switch," has been an issue for many years. It obscures
your argument and alienates the people whose minds you are trying
to change. Lots of people are telling you that, mostly from the
evolution side of the evolution/creation divide. Nobody has a beef >>>>>> with your claims about ID, nobody is running away from "the
reality of what happened five years ago about the scam." People on >>>>>> your side of the issue are telling you that you are not
communicating effectively.

I predict that, after reading what you wrote, Ron O. will have no idea >>>>> what you wrote.  He will have seen something completely different.

I seem to be harrassing RonO about it. Maybe he thinks I'm an ID
perp, he
certainly does go into full-fledged rant-mode very easily.

I think I'll just leave it, now I know there no getting through.

Yes. It's hopeless. You might as well try to persuade the other Ron
to read up a bit on topics he doesn't understand before pontificating
about them.

Why believe the guy.  He knows that he was harassing me.  There was no
other reason for the existence of the post.  Do you even know what you
are agreeing with?

You guys should get together and figure out just what is going on if
you can be honest enough with each other to do that.

Get Mark Isaac to tell you why he started the stupid issue.  It hadn't
mattered for over 15 years, so ask him why it started to matter.  An
excuse to cover one's own incompetence isn't any type of valid excuse
for doing something this stupid.  It isn't going to change what
happened 5 years ago.

Ron Okimoto

Bye Ron.

If they ever do get together to figure out what the situation actually
is you should join them. Willful ignorance will not change reality. If
you think that you know, you might start a thread and get everyone
including Mark Isaac to tell you if you are on the right track. Most of
the participants don't even know what started this. Not just the lame stupidity that started the issue in this thread, but why Mark started it.

Ron Okimoto

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[snip]

Why blame the messenger?

Why be the messenger?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 2023-12-10 5:19 PM, RonO wrote:

[...]
You guys should get together and figure out just what is going on if
you can be honest enough with each other to do that.

Get Mark Isaac to tell you why he started the stupid issue.

I didn't start it. People have complained about your posting style for
years.

And you might consider that when multiple independent people say the
problem is you, the most parsimonious explanation is that the problem is
you. Blaming other people, at that point, only serves to make you look
like a fool.

--
Mark Isaak
"Wisdom begins when you discover the difference between 'That
doesn't make sense' and 'I don't understand.'" - Mary Doria Russell

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On 12/11/2023 7:11 AM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[snip]

Why blame the messenger?

Why be the messenger?

Why not. No one else seems to be interested in telling things as they
have been for over 2 decades. You all seem to want to keep lying to
yourselves about it. This whole mess is because Mark Isaac started
attacking me. I did not go after Mark, he came after me. It was due to
his festering belief that I somehow dulled his senses so that he missed
out on the demise of IDiocy on TO. At first He and some others believed
that I had badggered the IDiots into fleeing from the harassment, but
they were wrong. It came out when I wanted Nyikos banned because he was starting to accumulate new junk to lie about forever. One of the issues
had been the Top Six. Nyikos had to start lying about it because he
found out that I had never tried to refute the Top Six. He even tried
to harass me about me not refuting the Top Six. I had to tell the
asshole that I had never attempted to refute the Top Six. All that I
had ever had to do was to present the Top Six as the ID perps had put
them out. That was enough to get the IDiots to quit. The ID perps
really did commit suicide. I noted that uncommon descent could not deal
with the Top Six at the time, and now they are dead. I did not post
over there, they just had to run from the Top Six on their own. It just
turned out that none of the IDiots had wanted the ID perps to succeed in
doing any ID science. None of them wanted to believe in the designer
that filled those gaps in the order in which they must have logically
occurred in this universe.

All that I had to do to counter the Mark Isaac and other's blame game
was to give them a link to a typical post that I would make on the
subject and note that Nyikos already understood that I had never tried
to refute the junk. Instead of doing something sane like accepting
reality, the stupidity about me dulling their senses with the truth
somehow was responsible for them missing out on, probably, the most
significant event with respect to ID that ever happened on TO, they
started the current blame game. Mark started pushing it recently, and
this is the mess he created.

Before you join in, you might want to figure out if you want to support
the stupidity. It is all just sour grapes about being too incompetent
to understand what happened 5 years ago.

Ron Okimoto

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 12/11/2023 3:18 PM, Mark Isaak wrote:

On 2023-12-10 5:19 PM, RonO wrote:

[...]
You guys should get together and figure out just what is going on if
you can be honest enough with each other to do that.

Get Mark Isaac to tell you why he started the stupid issue.

I didn't start it.  People have complained about your posting style for years.

And you might consider that when multiple independent people say the
problem is you, the most parsimonious explanation is that the problem is you.  Blaming other people, at that point, only serves to make you look
like a fool.

You can go back to it and you started the current TO fiasco. Why try
to lie about what you did. You attacked me about it because of your
stupid sour grapes issue with the Top Six. Your excuse above is beneath
the person that you used to be.

There is nothing so bad about telling things just as they have been. If
you want to counter go ahead. The terminology exists to be applied
where it is warranted. You don't see me calling the scientific
creationists perps because they may have dishonestly presented their
arguments, but they followed their beliefs down in flames. The ID perps started running the bait and switch on their own creationist supporters
when they understood that they never had the ID science to teach, and ID
just became the bait. The ID perps couldn't give up on their Wedge
strategy goals, so the switch scam took ID's place as their Wedge. No
one likes the switch scam. Nearly all the IDiots that have had the bait
and switch run on them have dropped the issue instead of bending over
for the switch scam. Only Ohio had implemented the switch scam by the
time Dover hit the fan. The ID perps used to have a list before Dover
that they claimed had IDiot rubes still considering the switch scam. By
Dover there were 20 to 30 groups of rubes on that list. Even after
Dover the ID perps could not stop using ID as the bait because no one
wanted the switch scam. Louisiana didn't adopt the switch scam until
2008, and the very next year they tried to implement it by trying to
teach IDiocy in their public schools, and the ID perps had to run the
bait and switch on them again. They had to be reminded by the scam
artists that the switch scam had nothing to do with ID. This is your
reality. The ID perps have been perps for over 20 years. ID hasn't
been used for anything except as bait by the ID perps. No ID science
was ever produced. All the current fellows just signed up to keep
putting ID out as bait. They all know that ID will never be taught in
the public schools legally. The obfuscation and denial switch scam has
been their only means to push the Wedge strategy forward.

You should not have started this stupidity, and it should end. There is nothing wrong with calling a perp a perp. There is something wrong with
what you did, and you know it. Sour grapes is no reason to harass
someone else. I didn't even realize that the rest of TO did not know
what was going on. The IDiot understood. There is no doubt about that.
Only the clueless like Dean, and the willfully ignorant Nyikos didn't
know what had happened because Nyikos had been lying about the ID perps
since he returned to TO, and Dean isn't competent enough to understand
the situation.

Ron Okimoto

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 12/11/2023 8:07 PM, Ron Dean wrote:

Mark Isaak wrote:

On 2023-12-10 5:19 PM, RonO wrote:

[...]
You guys should get together and figure out just what is going on if
you can be honest enough with each other to do that.

Get Mark Isaac to tell you why he started the stupid issue.

I didn't start it.  People have complained about your posting style
for years.

And you might consider that when multiple independent people say the
problem is you, the most parsimonious explanation is that the problem
is you.  Blaming other people, at that point, only serves to make you
look like a fool.

Why is Ron O so obsessed with the so- called "top six".

Just evidence that Dean is just what I have claimed. He is too
incompetent to understand what has been going on.

Dean is the one that came back to posting to TO twice after his first
encounter with the Top Six and both returns he claimed not to remember
the previous encounters, and now he is claiming that he doesn't
understand how he could not deal with the Top Six again.

Ron Okimoto

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 12/11/2023 8:58 PM, Lawyer Daggett wrote:

On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 9:12:06 PM UTC-5, Ron Dean wrote:

Mark Isaak wrote:

On 2023-12-10 5:19 PM, RonO wrote:

[...]
You guys should get together and figure out just what is going on if >>>>> you can be honest enough with each other to do that.

Get Mark Isaac to tell you why he started the stupid issue.

I didn't start it. People have complained about your posting style for
years.

And you might consider that when multiple independent people say the
problem is you, the most parsimonious explanation is that the problem is >>> you. Blaming other people, at that point, only serves to make you look
like a fool.

Why is Ron O so obsessed with the so- called "top six".

It's a complex thing but at heart he thinks that, at least as far as talk.origins
is concerned, there has been a decisive victory scored against the charlatans who were promoting ID as a backdoor into schools as an alternative to evolution and the perceived dangers of naturalism in society. On most fronts, he is technically correct.

The ID movement is largely a fraud put forth by people with less than honest motives. Their cut and paste rewrite of a creationist biology to make it an "Intelligent Design" biology book make that clear enough, as do their essential
confessions with the Wedge Strategy.

But beyond that, and in particular with this Top Six thing, RonO has latched onto
the fact that this Top Six thing, otherwise knowable as the best the ID folks have to offer, would only yield a best false victories for them because if you
consider them honestly, and even granted some of their claims for arguments sake, it would yield a series of "designers" that are far from what the people
behind the ID movement would like to promote. They are happy to sew doubt about evolution and other naturalistic theories to account for 'Creation', but
they really don't want to commit to the patchwork suite of design interventions
scattered across space and time that their various claims about design
would imply.

He considers that to be very very important, and he thinks that almost nobody appreciates the significance or legitimacy of that point. He also seems to jump
to the conclusion that people who criticize his methods are disagreeing with him about issues of substance rather than those of style. This manifests as him digging in deeper about how very profound he thinks his perspective is, and apparently how stupid are those who don't see things his way.

There does appear to me to be a dash of megalomania to it. And I don't even disagree much with most of his perspective, other than that there has been some for of death blow inflicted. This is the internet, a ruthless and decisive
argument on one day may look deadly but the Black Knight comes right back
a day, a week, a month later completely oblivious to having been eviscerated. Often, they repeat the same falsified claims, ignoring decisive references, for no more reason than because nobody can stop them.

There are people that you just can't get through to, not even when you try again with a different tack, and yet another different tack.

But it is a good lesson about delusions, especially any delusion that trying another tack will work this time even if the previous 10 times didn't work.

Why keep up the denial and sour grapes? You were just wrong about what
I was doing. The ID perps killed ID on TO. Most of TO didn't realize
that, and obviously still don't realize that. Only the IDiots
understood what the ID perps had done and most of them quit. Dean never understood. He asked for assistance twice, but no one would help him out.

If anyone doesn't understand what happened 5 years ago, they should try
to figure out what happened. Daggett's sour grapes about the issue is
the only response to reality that TO can muster, and is the basis for
Mark Isaac's current campaign. They only want to make excuses for their
own incompetence.

If you do not understand what happened 5 years ago, you should not join
in on the stupidity. The only reason that the Top six remained a topic
of discussion is due to IDiots like Glenn running from reality, and Dean
being too incompetent to understand what had happened in his previous encounters. Nyikos was just remaining willfully ignorant of the
situation because he has had to lie to himself about reality since
returning to TO. Some TO regulars like Daggett can't face reality as it
has been for the last 5 years, and there are others that are still
clueless about what happened.

The first time that I realized that Mark and Daggett had missed the boat
on what the ID perps had done to IDiocy, was when both of them falsely
accused me of driving the IDiots away with some weird refutation of the
Top Six. That would have been some type of miracle because the Top Six
had been used by Biblical creationists for over a decade before the ID
scam existed. All they had had to do was read one of the posts to
understand that I had not been doing that. Nyikos understood it with
the first Top Six post that I gave to him. The ID perps had made the
mistake of giving them the usual gap denial as a related group in the
order in which they must have logically occurred in this universe. The designer of the ID perp's Top Six best evidence for IDiocy is not the
designer of the Bible, and most of the IDiots could not deal with that
reality and quit being IDiots.

If you do not understand what happened 5 years ago, you should not join
Mark and Daggett on their current obfuscation and denial efforts.

I just tell things like they are, and if you can't deal with that, it is obviously your loss.

Ron Okimoto

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Tuesday 12 December 2023 at 14:42:06 UTC+2, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

I see a website that mentions it:

https://evolutionnews.org/2020/10/top-six-evidences-for-intelligent-design/

but that's from 3 years ago. That's later than RonO's 5 year timescale.

Same site has every year or two reiterated attempts of some of such
central focus.

Pure top 10 denial arguments decade ago ...: <https://evolutionnews.org/2012/07/what_are_the_to_1/>

... devolved to top 6 evidences 5 years ago: <https://evolutionnews.org/2017/11/ids-top-six-the-origin-of-the-universe/>

That was quite awful, as one can't deny evolution using "we do not know origins of universe" as argument without feeling being ridiculous. You just see some later edition.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 05:40:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/11/2023 8:07 PM, Ron Dean wrote:

Mark Isaak wrote:

On 2023-12-10 5:19 PM, RonO wrote:

[...]
You guys should get together and figure out just what is going on if >>>> you can be honest enough with each other to do that.

Get Mark Isaac to tell you why he started the stupid issue.

I didn't start it.� People have complained about your posting style
for years.

RonO: read and inwardly digest.

And you might consider that when multiple independent people say the
problem is you, the most parsimonious explanation is that the problem
is you.� Blaming other people, at that point, only serves to make you
look like a fool.

Why is Ron O so obsessed with the so- called "top six".

I see a website that mentions it:

https://evolutionnews.org/2020/10/top-six-evidences-for-intelligent-design/

but that's from 3 years ago. That's later than RonO's 5 year timescale.

Just evidence that Dean is just what I have claimed. He is too
incompetent to understand what has been going on.

Dean is the one that came back to posting to TO twice after his first encounter with the Top Six and both returns he claimed not to remember
the previous encounters, and now he is claiming that he doesn't
understand how he could not deal with the Top Six again.

Does that makes him a rube or a perp? :-)






--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/11/2023 8:58 PM, Lawyer Daggett wrote:

On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 9:12:06 PM UTC-5, Ron Dean wrote:

Mark Isaak wrote:

On 2023-12-10 5:19 PM, RonO wrote:

[...]
You guys should get together and figure out just what is going on if >>>>>> you can be honest enough with each other to do that.

Get Mark Isaac to tell you why he started the stupid issue.

I didn't start it. People have complained about your posting style for >>>> years.

And you might consider that when multiple independent people say the
problem is you, the most parsimonious explanation is that the problem is >>>> you. Blaming other people, at that point, only serves to make you look >>>> like a fool.

Why is Ron O so obsessed with the so- called "top six".

It's a complex thing but at heart he thinks that, at least as far as talk.origins
is concerned, there has been a decisive victory scored against the charlatans
who were promoting ID as a backdoor into schools as an alternative to
evolution and the perceived dangers of naturalism in society. On most fronts,
he is technically correct.

The ID movement is largely a fraud put forth by people with less than honest >> motives. Their cut and paste rewrite of a creationist biology to make it an >> "Intelligent Design" biology book make that clear enough, as do their essential
confessions with the Wedge Strategy.

But beyond that, and in particular with this Top Six thing, RonO has latched onto
the fact that this Top Six thing, otherwise knowable as the best the ID folks
have to offer, would only yield a best false victories for them because if you
consider them honestly, and even granted some of their claims for arguments >> sake, it would yield a series of "designers" that are far from what the people
behind the ID movement would like to promote. They are happy to sew doubt
about evolution and other naturalistic theories to account for 'Creation', but
they really don't want to commit to the patchwork suite of design interventions
scattered across space and time that their various claims about design
would imply.

He considers that to be very very important, and he thinks that almost nobody
appreciates the significance or legitimacy of that point. He also seems to jump
to the conclusion that people who criticize his methods are disagreeing with >> him about issues of substance rather than those of style. This manifests as >> him digging in deeper about how very profound he thinks his perspective is, >> and apparently how stupid are those who don't see things his way.

There does appear to me to be a dash of megalomania to it. And I don't even >> disagree much with most of his perspective, other than that there has been >> some for of death blow inflicted. This is the internet, a ruthless and decisive
argument on one day may look deadly but the Black Knight comes right back
a day, a week, a month later completely oblivious to having been eviscerated.
Often, they repeat the same falsified claims, ignoring decisive references, >> for no more reason than because nobody can stop them.

There are people that you just can't get through to, not even when you try >> again with a different tack, and yet another different tack.

But it is a good lesson about delusions, especially any delusion that trying >> another tack will work this time even if the previous 10 times didn't work. >>

Why keep up the denial and sour grapes? You were just wrong about what
I was doing. The ID perps killed ID on TO. Most of TO didn't realize
that, and obviously still don't realize that. Only the IDiots
understood what the ID perps had done and most of them quit. Dean never understood. He asked for assistance twice, but no one would help him out.

If anyone doesn't understand what happened 5 years ago, they should try
to figure out what happened. Daggett's sour grapes about the issue is
the only response to reality that TO can muster, and is the basis for
Mark Isaac's current campaign. They only want to make excuses for their
own incompetence.

If you do not understand what happened 5 years ago, you should not join
in on the stupidity. The only reason that the Top six remained a topic
of discussion is due to IDiots like Glenn running from reality, and Dean being too incompetent to understand what had happened in his previous encounters. Nyikos was just remaining willfully ignorant of the
situation because he has had to lie to himself about reality since
returning to TO. Some TO regulars like Daggett can't face reality as it
has been for the last 5 years, and there are others that are still
clueless about what happened.

The first time that I realized that Mark and Daggett had missed the boat
on what the ID perps had done to IDiocy, was when both of them falsely accused me of driving the IDiots away with some weird refutation of the
Top Six. That would have been some type of miracle because the Top Six
had been used by Biblical creationists for over a decade before the ID
scam existed. All they had had to do was read one of the posts to
understand that I had not been doing that. Nyikos understood it with
the first Top Six post that I gave to him. The ID perps had made the
mistake of giving them the usual gap denial as a related group in the
order in which they must have logically occurred in this universe. The designer of the ID perp's Top Six best evidence for IDiocy is not the designer of the Bible, and most of the IDiots could not deal with that reality and quit being IDiots.

If you do not understand what happened 5 years ago, you should not join
Mark and Daggett on their current obfuscation and denial efforts.

I just tell things like they are, and if you can't deal with that, it is obviously your loss.

Who do you think you are actually going to convince by continuing as above? Yourself?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/10/2023 10:46 AM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 9:28 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 2:34 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 09:52:47 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>>>>>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It
was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had
nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up. >>>>>>>>>>

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more.

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post. What happened, happened 5 years ago. The >>>>>>> senseless denial and blame is stupid at this point. If you did not have
anything to add to the discussion you should have not posted anything. >>>>>>

[More screed snipped]

I'm not addressing your argument at all; just the repetitive use of those
key words.

You seem to be arguing into a vacuum, I doubt many here
feel the need to trawl the TO archive to rehash old battles.

I don't think you read this far.

Yes, you knew that you should not have posted at all. The repetition >>>>> was not an issue, until you made it an issue.

You need to just stop the whining and adjust to what reality has been >>>>> for the last 5 years. The current issue is just stupid because it will >>>>> not change reality. You all missed the boat, and blaming me isn't going >>>>> to change that fact. The TO IDiots will still have quit the ID scam due >>>>> to what the ID perps did, and not because of my correct use of
terminology. What kind of idiots had the IDiots always been?

How are you going to change your approach by not falling back on the same >>>> worn out tropes? You could reply with a quick “what I usually say about >>>> perps, scam, IDiots” and it would spare us the TL;DR. Freon Bill has left
the building and Pagano long before him. Do we need to recount their
contributions here?

The crabbing is because you guys missed the boat on why the IDiots quit
the ID scam. It happened 5 years ago. There is no reason to beef about >>> my use of the correct terminology at this time, and absolutely no reason >>> for the harassment of the poster that the others jumped in to support.
Really, go up the thread and you will find that the poster was just
harassing me for no reason because I hadn't done what everyone claims is >>> something bad. I only use the terminology when it is needed to be used. >>>
Whining about this now is stupid. Everyone missed out on why ID died on >>> TO, and it was because of your own incompetence. Do you even realize
that all this relates to why Pagano and Bill quit the ID scam? It is
just sour grapes about missing out on the reason that they quit. A lot
of TO regulars believed that I had driven them away by badgering them
with some refutation of the Top Six, but that wasn't the case. The ID
perps had killed ID on TO by putting up the Top Six in a way that the
IDiots could not deal with them. All I had ever had to do was put them
up as the ID perps had, and demonstrate that even the ID perps couldn't
deal with them in an honest and straight forward manner. Most TO
regulars were competent enough to realize that I was telling the truth,
so they started this lame campaign as some excuse for their own
incompetence in not understanding what happened 5 year ago.

I have been using the correct terminology for the ID scam since I
started doing it just before the Dover fiasco hit the fan. If anything
the descriptions are too mild. There is no reason to keep lying to
yourselves about what the situation has been for over 20 years because
the ID perps really did kill ID on TO 5 years ago.

I fail to see the significance of Bill and Pags allegedly quitting some
scam they didn’t seem to represent well nor were they key players. I also >> fail to see what bearing my own incompetence has on the big picture,
whatever that is. I am insignificant. And I fail to see what importance
events on some backwater usenet forum have had for a larger world which has >> no awareness of said events. How could ID have *died here* and what role
could you or anyone else posting here have played in that non-event?
Repetition doesn’t increase truth value.

How sad is it that you are participating with the others and you do not
know why they are doing it?

This whining about my use for the correct terminology as it has applied
to the ID scam for decades is due to the fact that Mark Isaak and some
others started in on it after they realized that they had missed out on
why Pagano and Bill had quit the ID scam. They had wrongly blamed me
for chasing them away, and they didn't have a clue as to why the ID scam
had died on TO.

I recall your By Their Fruits posts? You would indicate presumed IDers by
their output. Was this blamed? Some may have objected to being listed in
such as manner. Pagano had his own issues. I recall him being fixated on Harshman and others and putting people in thread titles. Does Crash and
Burned fit here? It would be mindreading to assume why he stopped posting. Freon Bill stopped posting for whatever reason. I don’t know why. Maybe personal issues or losing interest. How could you or the death of ID be attributed to either. We don’t know why Ray Martinez stopped. Many on the evolution side have stopped.

It was around 4 years after it had occurred and no one
was going to do anything about it by falsely blaming someone for what happened. They realized that they had screwed up, but had to continue
to claim that I was somehow at fault for their own incompetence, and
they started to whine about my correct use of the terminology that I
have been using since just before Dover hit the fan and demonstrated
that it was the correct terminology for what was going on. One of them claimed that it had dulled their awareness to how stupid and dishonest
the ID scam had been, so that they missed the ID perps committing
suicide on TO.

More mindreading and interpretation that leaves you the sole hero or
positive force and casts others as villains or your adversaries. Could
there be negative aspects to your output that you are unaware of? Plus it’s
a bit hyperbolic to say people committed suicide on TO, no?

Others have just piled on and display the worst aspects of TO. A lot of
them are doing it because they do not understand what the issue actually
was, and they don't care.

Others are viewing you in a negative way by some of your output. Is that a worst aspect of TO or are you catastrophizing? Regardless of whatever
perceived injustice to you in the past, it’s the repetitive nature of some
of your posts people object to. Moving forward maybe change that up a bit.
You could hit on similar themes, just in a less offputting way.

The ID scam died on TO because the ID perps were stupid enough to put
out their Top Six best god-of-the-gaps denial stupidity as a related
whole, and not as the individual fire and forget denial that the
creationists had been using since the scientific creationists were using
the same gap denial over a decade before the ID scam existed.

Yes god-gapping is a common theme in ID/creationism. And there are various
ID approaches tried over the years. Why just six?

It turned
out that most of the TO IDiots had never wanted the ID perps to
accomplish any ID science, and they definitely did not want to support
the ID perps if all they could expect is more science to deny. None of
them wanted to believe in the designer that filled those gaps in the
order in which they must have logically occurred in this universe. This happened 5 years ago, and the stupidity about my correct usage of common terminology is not going to change what happened nor absolve anyone of
their own incompetence.

Saying people are stupid or incompetent because they disagree with you is
not conducive to getting them to see you might have good points to make.
It’s likely to make them like you less. Many of us realize you are a very knowledgable biologist. You and Daggett contributed to my learning more
about adaptive immunity a few years ago.

How much is this about you and not alleged events 5 years ago? You say ID
perps killed ID here but you seem to be playing a star role with the Top
Six. Was it truly a good effect or could calling attention to a phantom be >> detrimental? I’m hinting at a key article Anthony Greenwald, but will keep >> that on the DL for now.

One of Greenwald’s concepts was beneffectance or “perception of responsibility for desired, but not undesired, outcomes” which applies to
all of us:

http://www.psych.purdue.edu/~willia55/392F-%2706/Greenwald.pdf

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On 12/12/2023 12:57 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/11/2023 8:58 PM, Lawyer Daggett wrote:

On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 9:12:06 PM UTC-5, Ron Dean wrote:

Mark Isaak wrote:

On 2023-12-10 5:19 PM, RonO wrote:

[...]
You guys should get together and figure out just what is going on if >>>>>>> you can be honest enough with each other to do that.

Get Mark Isaac to tell you why he started the stupid issue.

I didn't start it. People have complained about your posting style for >>>>> years.

And you might consider that when multiple independent people say the >>>>> problem is you, the most parsimonious explanation is that the problem is >>>>> you. Blaming other people, at that point, only serves to make you look >>>>> like a fool.

Why is Ron O so obsessed with the so- called "top six".

It's a complex thing but at heart he thinks that, at least as far as talk.origins
is concerned, there has been a decisive victory scored against the charlatans
who were promoting ID as a backdoor into schools as an alternative to
evolution and the perceived dangers of naturalism in society. On most fronts,
he is technically correct.

The ID movement is largely a fraud put forth by people with less than honest
motives. Their cut and paste rewrite of a creationist biology to make it an >>> "Intelligent Design" biology book make that clear enough, as do their essential
confessions with the Wedge Strategy.

But beyond that, and in particular with this Top Six thing, RonO has latched onto
the fact that this Top Six thing, otherwise knowable as the best the ID folks
have to offer, would only yield a best false victories for them because if you
consider them honestly, and even granted some of their claims for arguments >>> sake, it would yield a series of "designers" that are far from what the people
behind the ID movement would like to promote. They are happy to sew doubt >>> about evolution and other naturalistic theories to account for 'Creation', but
they really don't want to commit to the patchwork suite of design interventions
scattered across space and time that their various claims about design
would imply.

He considers that to be very very important, and he thinks that almost nobody
appreciates the significance or legitimacy of that point. He also seems to jump
to the conclusion that people who criticize his methods are disagreeing with
him about issues of substance rather than those of style. This manifests as >>> him digging in deeper about how very profound he thinks his perspective is, >>> and apparently how stupid are those who don't see things his way.

There does appear to me to be a dash of megalomania to it. And I don't even >>> disagree much with most of his perspective, other than that there has been >>> some for of death blow inflicted. This is the internet, a ruthless and decisive
argument on one day may look deadly but the Black Knight comes right back >>> a day, a week, a month later completely oblivious to having been eviscerated.
Often, they repeat the same falsified claims, ignoring decisive references, >>> for no more reason than because nobody can stop them.

There are people that you just can't get through to, not even when you try >>> again with a different tack, and yet another different tack.

But it is a good lesson about delusions, especially any delusion that trying
another tack will work this time even if the previous 10 times didn't work. >>>

Why keep up the denial and sour grapes? You were just wrong about what
I was doing. The ID perps killed ID on TO. Most of TO didn't realize
that, and obviously still don't realize that. Only the IDiots
understood what the ID perps had done and most of them quit. Dean never
understood. He asked for assistance twice, but no one would help him out. >>
If anyone doesn't understand what happened 5 years ago, they should try
to figure out what happened. Daggett's sour grapes about the issue is
the only response to reality that TO can muster, and is the basis for
Mark Isaac's current campaign. They only want to make excuses for their
own incompetence.

If you do not understand what happened 5 years ago, you should not join
in on the stupidity. The only reason that the Top six remained a topic
of discussion is due to IDiots like Glenn running from reality, and Dean
being too incompetent to understand what had happened in his previous
encounters. Nyikos was just remaining willfully ignorant of the
situation because he has had to lie to himself about reality since
returning to TO. Some TO regulars like Daggett can't face reality as it
has been for the last 5 years, and there are others that are still
clueless about what happened.

The first time that I realized that Mark and Daggett had missed the boat
on what the ID perps had done to IDiocy, was when both of them falsely
accused me of driving the IDiots away with some weird refutation of the
Top Six. That would have been some type of miracle because the Top Six
had been used by Biblical creationists for over a decade before the ID
scam existed. All they had had to do was read one of the posts to
understand that I had not been doing that. Nyikos understood it with
the first Top Six post that I gave to him. The ID perps had made the
mistake of giving them the usual gap denial as a related group in the
order in which they must have logically occurred in this universe. The
designer of the ID perp's Top Six best evidence for IDiocy is not the
designer of the Bible, and most of the IDiots could not deal with that
reality and quit being IDiots.

If you do not understand what happened 5 years ago, you should not join
Mark and Daggett on their current obfuscation and denial efforts.

I just tell things like they are, and if you can't deal with that, it is
obviously your loss.

Who do you think you are actually going to convince by continuing as above? Yourself?

I just tell things how they are. If you remain unable to face reality,
that is your issue, and obviously has been your loss. You should try to
figure out what the current situation is. It is as lame and stupid as I
have claimed.

Ron Okimoto

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RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/12/2023 12:57 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/11/2023 8:58 PM, Lawyer Daggett wrote:

On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 9:12:06 PM UTC-5, Ron Dean wrote:

Mark Isaak wrote:

On 2023-12-10 5:19 PM, RonO wrote:

[...]
You guys should get together and figure out just what is going on if >>>>>>>> you can be honest enough with each other to do that.

Get Mark Isaac to tell you why he started the stupid issue.

I didn't start it. People have complained about your posting style for >>>>>> years.

And you might consider that when multiple independent people say the >>>>>> problem is you, the most parsimonious explanation is that the problem is >>>>>> you. Blaming other people, at that point, only serves to make you look >>>>>> like a fool.

Why is Ron O so obsessed with the so- called "top six".

It's a complex thing but at heart he thinks that, at least as far as talk.origins
is concerned, there has been a decisive victory scored against the charlatans
who were promoting ID as a backdoor into schools as an alternative to
evolution and the perceived dangers of naturalism in society. On most fronts,
he is technically correct.

The ID movement is largely a fraud put forth by people with less than honest
motives. Their cut and paste rewrite of a creationist biology to make it an
"Intelligent Design" biology book make that clear enough, as do their essential
confessions with the Wedge Strategy.

But beyond that, and in particular with this Top Six thing, RonO has latched onto
the fact that this Top Six thing, otherwise knowable as the best the ID folks
have to offer, would only yield a best false victories for them because if you
consider them honestly, and even granted some of their claims for arguments
sake, it would yield a series of "designers" that are far from what the people
behind the ID movement would like to promote. They are happy to sew doubt >>>> about evolution and other naturalistic theories to account for 'Creation', but
they really don't want to commit to the patchwork suite of design interventions
scattered across space and time that their various claims about design >>>> would imply.

He considers that to be very very important, and he thinks that almost nobody
appreciates the significance or legitimacy of that point. He also seems to jump
to the conclusion that people who criticize his methods are disagreeing with
him about issues of substance rather than those of style. This manifests as
him digging in deeper about how very profound he thinks his perspective is,
and apparently how stupid are those who don't see things his way.

There does appear to me to be a dash of megalomania to it. And I don't even
disagree much with most of his perspective, other than that there has been >>>> some for of death blow inflicted. This is the internet, a ruthless and decisive
argument on one day may look deadly but the Black Knight comes right back >>>> a day, a week, a month later completely oblivious to having been eviscerated.
Often, they repeat the same falsified claims, ignoring decisive references,
for no more reason than because nobody can stop them.

There are people that you just can't get through to, not even when you try >>>> again with a different tack, and yet another different tack.

But it is a good lesson about delusions, especially any delusion that trying
another tack will work this time even if the previous 10 times didn't work.

Why keep up the denial and sour grapes? You were just wrong about what
I was doing. The ID perps killed ID on TO. Most of TO didn't realize
that, and obviously still don't realize that. Only the IDiots
understood what the ID perps had done and most of them quit. Dean never >>> understood. He asked for assistance twice, but no one would help him out. >>>
If anyone doesn't understand what happened 5 years ago, they should try
to figure out what happened. Daggett's sour grapes about the issue is
the only response to reality that TO can muster, and is the basis for
Mark Isaac's current campaign. They only want to make excuses for their >>> own incompetence.

If you do not understand what happened 5 years ago, you should not join
in on the stupidity. The only reason that the Top six remained a topic
of discussion is due to IDiots like Glenn running from reality, and Dean >>> being too incompetent to understand what had happened in his previous
encounters. Nyikos was just remaining willfully ignorant of the
situation because he has had to lie to himself about reality since
returning to TO. Some TO regulars like Daggett can't face reality as it >>> has been for the last 5 years, and there are others that are still
clueless about what happened.

The first time that I realized that Mark and Daggett had missed the boat >>> on what the ID perps had done to IDiocy, was when both of them falsely
accused me of driving the IDiots away with some weird refutation of the
Top Six. That would have been some type of miracle because the Top Six
had been used by Biblical creationists for over a decade before the ID
scam existed. All they had had to do was read one of the posts to
understand that I had not been doing that. Nyikos understood it with
the first Top Six post that I gave to him. The ID perps had made the
mistake of giving them the usual gap denial as a related group in the
order in which they must have logically occurred in this universe. The
designer of the ID perp's Top Six best evidence for IDiocy is not the
designer of the Bible, and most of the IDiots could not deal with that
reality and quit being IDiots.

If you do not understand what happened 5 years ago, you should not join
Mark and Daggett on their current obfuscation and denial efforts.

I just tell things like they are, and if you can't deal with that, it is >>> obviously your loss.

Who do you think you are actually going to convince by continuing as above? >> Yourself?

I just tell things how they are. If you remain unable to face reality,
that is your issue, and obviously has been your loss. You should try to figure out what the current situation is. It is as lame and stupid as I
have claimed.

Daggett above said: “…On most fronts, he is technically correct.

The ID movement is largely a fraud put forth by people with less than
honest motives…”

And: “…And I don't even disagree much with most of his perspective, other than that there has been some for of death blow inflicted…”

So Daggett isn’t too far opposed to you on basic points, but: “He also seems to jump to the conclusion that people who criticize his methods are disagreeing with him about issues of substance rather than those of style.”

So the reality Daggett puts forward has salience. And I dunno this current spotlighting on you not only puts you on the understandable defensive but
in the larger perspective may amount to making a mountain out of a
molehill. My point would remain to shift your approach a bit in the aspects people are tiring of. We all have our quirks.

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On 12/12/2023 6:40 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 05:40:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/11/2023 8:07 PM, Ron Dean wrote:

Mark Isaak wrote:

On 2023-12-10 5:19 PM, RonO wrote:

[...]
You guys should get together and figure out just what is going on if >>>>>> you can be honest enough with each other to do that.

Get Mark Isaac to tell you why he started the stupid issue.

I didn't start it.  People have complained about your posting style
for years.

RonO: read and inwardly digest.

And you might consider that when multiple independent people say the
problem is you, the most parsimonious explanation is that the problem
is you.  Blaming other people, at that point, only serves to make you >>>> look like a fool.

Why is Ron O so obsessed with the so- called "top six".

I see a website that mentions it:

https://evolutionnews.org/2020/10/top-six-evidences-for-intelligent-design/

but that's from 3 years ago. That's later than RonO's 5 year timescale.

This is Sewell's attempt to make the Top Six more palatable to IDiots.
Sewell dropped out #4 (IC) and #5 (the Cambrian explosion) put the
others out of order and split human evolution (#6) and fine tuning (#2)
into two parts each to maintain the illusion that it was still the Top Six.

Really, even the ID perps could not deal with their Top Six in an honest
and straight forward manner. Sewell really had to remove some and put
the others up as independent entities in order to keep lying to himself
about them. Later on Brian Miller dropped out the Big Bang and made it
the Top Five.

It was 5 years before the current fiasco and denial started, but it is
now 6 years. As I have noted Nov 2017. You can ask Mark Isaac when the current stupidity actually started. It is just bubbling up to the
surface again.

QUOTE:
So here they are, their order simply reflecting that in which they must logically have occurred within our universe.
END QUOTE:

1.
https://evolutionnews.org/2017/11/ids-top-six-the-origin-of-the-universe/

2. https://evolutionnews.org/2017/11/ids-top-six-the-fine-tuning-of-the-universe/

3. https://evolutionnews.org/2017/11/ids-top-six-the-origin-of-information-in-dna/

4. https://evolutionnews.org/2017/11/ids-top-six-the-origin-of-irreducibly-complex-molecular-machines/

5.
https://evolutionnews.org/2017/11/ids-top-six-the-origin-of-animals/

6.
https://evolutionnews.org/2017/11/ids-top-six-the-origin-of-humans/

With what we know about what exists between the gaps and the order in
which they occurred, most of the IDiots posting on TO found out that the
ID scam was not Biblical enough for them. Any ID science would have
just been more science to deny.

Just evidence that Dean is just what I have claimed. He is too
incompetent to understand what has been going on.

Dean is the one that came back to posting to TO twice after his first
encounter with the Top Six and both returns he claimed not to remember
the previous encounters, and now he is claiming that he doesn't
understand how he could not deal with the Top Six again.

Does that makes him a rube or a perp? :-)

He is obviously just a rube, and the type of rube that the ID perps
depend on for their existence. They also require guys like you to stay
in Business. You do realize that, right?

Ron Okimoto








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On 12/12/2023 11:34 AM, Martin Harran wrote:

On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 10:27:02 -0600, RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/10/2023 3:26 AM, Martin Harran wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600, RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It >>>>>> was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had >>>>>> nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up.

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more. >>>> There is no reason for the rest of TO to keep lying about what the ID >>>> scam has been all these years. Everyone should have faced that reality >>>> long ago. ID died on TO 5 years ago.

Why then do you feel the need to post so much about it on TO?

[...]

Because it is still a topic of discussion on TO even though most of the
IDiots quit. MarkE has even started supporting the ID scam as some last
ditch effort to keep supporting his religious beliefs.

Ah, right, ID died on TO but has now undergone its own Resurrection.

Why did you even make this comment. You do realize that it just makes
you look stupid.

I have always claimed that the ID scam continues. You don't seem to
know what you are crabbing about anymore. All of you should settle
down, and try to figure the mess out before you make yourselves look
even worse than you are.

It looks like you missed out on what happened after Nov 2017 when the ID
perps put out their Top Six. It used to be the IDiots that were into
this type of denial.

Ron Okimoto

MarkE has been
the anti-evolution creationists that never seemed to have bought into
the ID scam until it died on TO, and he started to try to continue to
put up the Top Six one at a time in order to keep the creationist denial
alive.

The ID perps keep using ID as the bait, and haven't quit even if they
don't seem to have very many creationist willing to support the effort.
Nyikos has kept the topic up on TO because of his need to lie about it
all the time. Glenn kept supporting the ID scam even though he had to
run from their best evidence. He did that until Nyikos had to start
lying about something else after the last holy water repost shut down
that series of repetitive Nyikosian lies, and pretty much killed Glenn's
posting on TO by trying to defend the way in which Glenn had been
running from the Top Six. Nyikos uncovered just why all the other
IDiots had quit due to the Top Six, and Glenn likely could no longer
stay willfully ignorant of reality because he had initially supported
Nyikos' ignorant efforts. Really, Nyikos was clueless about why all the
other IDiots had quit the ID scam, and when Nyikos understood what had
happened, some of it splashed on Glenn in a way he could not lie to
himself about it. Dean would just come back to posting to TO after long
breaks and claim that he did not recall his previous encounters with the
Top Six. He is just too incompetent to realize what all the other
IDiots had realized 5 years ago.

The ID scam is still a topic of discusson on TO. The support for the
effort is just not what it used to be.

Ron Okimoto

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On 12/12/2023 2:18 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/10/2023 10:46 AM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 9:28 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 2:34 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 09:52:47 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/9/2023 4:07 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:39:18 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/8/2023 5:48 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:47:32 -0600
RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

[]

decades. Behe was a lost cause before that. The ID perps started >>>>>>>>>>>> running the bait and switch after Behe's responses to his critics. It
was likely one of the main reasons that they understood that they had
nothing worth teaching.

Much better, only 1 "bait and switch" and 1 "perps". Keep it up. >>>>>>>>>>>

That is all that was needed. Your kind of post doesn't matter any more.

*My* post?

Yes, your worthless post. What happened, happened 5 years ago. The >>>>>>>> senseless denial and blame is stupid at this point. If you did not have
anything to add to the discussion you should have not posted anything. >>>>>>>

[More screed snipped]

I'm not addressing your argument at all; just the repetitive use of those
key words.

You seem to be arguing into a vacuum, I doubt many here
feel the need to trawl the TO archive to rehash old battles. >>>>>>>>>

I don't think you read this far.

Yes, you knew that you should not have posted at all. The repetition >>>>>> was not an issue, until you made it an issue.

You need to just stop the whining and adjust to what reality has been >>>>>> for the last 5 years. The current issue is just stupid because it will >>>>>> not change reality. You all missed the boat, and blaming me isn't going >>>>>> to change that fact. The TO IDiots will still have quit the ID scam due >>>>>> to what the ID perps did, and not because of my correct use of
terminology. What kind of idiots had the IDiots always been?

How are you going to change your approach by not falling back on the same >>>>> worn out tropes? You could reply with a quick “what I usually say about >>>>> perps, scam, IDiots” and it would spare us the TL;DR. Freon Bill has left
the building and Pagano long before him. Do we need to recount their >>>>> contributions here?

The crabbing is because you guys missed the boat on why the IDiots quit >>>> the ID scam. It happened 5 years ago. There is no reason to beef about >>>> my use of the correct terminology at this time, and absolutely no reason >>>> for the harassment of the poster that the others jumped in to support. >>>> Really, go up the thread and you will find that the poster was just
harassing me for no reason because I hadn't done what everyone claims is >>>> something bad. I only use the terminology when it is needed to be used. >>>>
Whining about this now is stupid. Everyone missed out on why ID died on >>>> TO, and it was because of your own incompetence. Do you even realize
that all this relates to why Pagano and Bill quit the ID scam? It is
just sour grapes about missing out on the reason that they quit. A lot >>>> of TO regulars believed that I had driven them away by badgering them
with some refutation of the Top Six, but that wasn't the case. The ID >>>> perps had killed ID on TO by putting up the Top Six in a way that the
IDiots could not deal with them. All I had ever had to do was put them >>>> up as the ID perps had, and demonstrate that even the ID perps couldn't >>>> deal with them in an honest and straight forward manner. Most TO
regulars were competent enough to realize that I was telling the truth, >>>> so they started this lame campaign as some excuse for their own
incompetence in not understanding what happened 5 year ago.

I have been using the correct terminology for the ID scam since I
started doing it just before the Dover fiasco hit the fan. If anything >>>> the descriptions are too mild. There is no reason to keep lying to
yourselves about what the situation has been for over 20 years because >>>> the ID perps really did kill ID on TO 5 years ago.

I fail to see the significance of Bill and Pags allegedly quitting some
scam they didn’t seem to represent well nor were they key players. I also >>> fail to see what bearing my own incompetence has on the big picture,
whatever that is. I am insignificant. And I fail to see what importance
events on some backwater usenet forum have had for a larger world which has >>> no awareness of said events. How could ID have *died here* and what role >>> could you or anyone else posting here have played in that non-event?
Repetition doesn’t increase truth value.

How sad is it that you are participating with the others and you do not
know why they are doing it?

This whining about my use for the correct terminology as it has applied
to the ID scam for decades is due to the fact that Mark Isaak and some
others started in on it after they realized that they had missed out on
why Pagano and Bill had quit the ID scam. They had wrongly blamed me
for chasing them away, and they didn't have a clue as to why the ID scam
had died on TO.

I recall your By Their Fruits posts? You would indicate presumed IDers by their output. Was this blamed? Some may have objected to being listed in
such as manner. Pagano had his own issues. I recall him being fixated on Harshman and others and putting people in thread titles. Does Crash and Burned fit here? It would be mindreading to assume why he stopped posting. Freon Bill stopped posting for whatever reason. I don’t know why. Maybe personal issues or losing interest. How could you or the death of ID be attributed to either. We don’t know why Ray Martinez stopped. Many on the evolution side have stopped.

Those posts were for archival purposes. At the time Google allowed you
to click on more info on the poster, and you would get their entire
posting history in bits. Not complete bits, but they would have
representative posts for every year that the poster had posted using
that account. It even kept several of Madman's accounts as being the
same account. You may recall that once Madman reached his limit for
posting on one account (it might have been 2 weeks or a month) for a
specific period of time he had to use another account. Madman had an impressive record. He had some years where Google would list over 2500
posts, and as I indicated google would only sample the posts and not
have all of them. There was one month (1 month) that google somehow
credited Madman with over 4,000 posts. Madman would post night and day,
but I do not know how Google made that count. Once Google stopped doing
that, I stopped making those posts. It kept track of Nyikos who had to
lie about the same thing over and over for years, you could use it to go
back to a certain year and pull up those threads for any poster whether
they were still posting or not. All I had to do was search for "By
their fruits" and they would come up, and in a few pages of search
results you could find several years worth of threads. I used to state,
that you could do that in those threads. If they changed accounts,
google would have the account they were using then.

You likely should give up, and try to figure out what is actually
happening. You seem to be lost in some type of delusion about how
reality fits together. Mark started the current fiasco. You can start
there and work forward and backwards.

Ron Okimoto

It was around 4 years after it had occurred and no one
was going to do anything about it by falsely blaming someone for what
happened. They realized that they had screwed up, but had to continue
to claim that I was somehow at fault for their own incompetence, and
they started to whine about my correct use of the terminology that I
have been using since just before Dover hit the fan and demonstrated
that it was the correct terminology for what was going on. One of them
claimed that it had dulled their awareness to how stupid and dishonest
the ID scam had been, so that they missed the ID perps committing
suicide on TO.

More mindreading and interpretation that leaves you the sole hero or
positive force and casts others as villains or your adversaries. Could
there be negative aspects to your output that you are unaware of? Plus it’s a bit hyperbolic to say people committed suicide on TO, no?

Others have just piled on and display the worst aspects of TO. A lot of
them are doing it because they do not understand what the issue actually
was, and they don't care.

Others are viewing you in a negative way by some of your output. Is that a worst aspect of TO or are you catastrophizing? Regardless of whatever perceived injustice to you in the past, it’s the repetitive nature of some of your posts people object to. Moving forward maybe change that up a bit. You could hit on similar themes, just in a less offputting way.

The ID scam died on TO because the ID perps were stupid enough to put
out their Top Six best god-of-the-gaps denial stupidity as a related
whole, and not as the individual fire and forget denial that the
creationists had been using since the scientific creationists were using
the same gap denial over a decade before the ID scam existed.

Yes god-gapping is a common theme in ID/creationism. And there are various
ID approaches tried over the years. Why just six?

It turned
out that most of the TO IDiots had never wanted the ID perps to
accomplish any ID science, and they definitely did not want to support
the ID perps if all they could expect is more science to deny. None of
them wanted to believe in the designer that filled those gaps in the
order in which they must have logically occurred in this universe. This
happened 5 years ago, and the stupidity about my correct usage of common
terminology is not going to change what happened nor absolve anyone of
their own incompetence.

Saying people are stupid or incompetent because they disagree with you is
not conducive to getting them to see you might have good points to make. It’s likely to make them like you less. Many of us realize you are a very knowledgable biologist. You and Daggett contributed to my learning more
about adaptive immunity a few years ago.

How much is this about you and not alleged events 5 years ago? You say ID >>> perps killed ID here but you seem to be playing a star role with the Top >>> Six. Was it truly a good effect or could calling attention to a phantom be >>> detrimental? I’m hinting at a key article Anthony Greenwald, but will keep
that on the DL for now.

One of Greenwald’s concepts was beneffectance or “perception of responsibility for desired, but not undesired, outcomes” which applies to all of us:

http://www.psych.purdue.edu/~willia55/392F-%2706/Greenwald.pdf

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/12/2023 6:54 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/12/2023 12:57 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/11/2023 8:58 PM, Lawyer Daggett wrote:

On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 9:12:06 PM UTC-5, Ron Dean wrote: >>>>>> Mark Isaak wrote:

On 2023-12-10 5:19 PM, RonO wrote:

[...]
You guys should get together and figure out just what is going on if >>>>>>>>> you can be honest enough with each other to do that.

Get Mark Isaac to tell you why he started the stupid issue.

I didn't start it. People have complained about your posting style for >>>>>>> years.

And you might consider that when multiple independent people say the >>>>>>> problem is you, the most parsimonious explanation is that the problem is
you. Blaming other people, at that point, only serves to make you look >>>>>>> like a fool.

Why is Ron O so obsessed with the so- called "top six".

It's a complex thing but at heart he thinks that, at least as far as talk.origins
is concerned, there has been a decisive victory scored against the charlatans
who were promoting ID as a backdoor into schools as an alternative to >>>>> evolution and the perceived dangers of naturalism in society. On most fronts,
he is technically correct.

The ID movement is largely a fraud put forth by people with less than honest
motives. Their cut and paste rewrite of a creationist biology to make it an
"Intelligent Design" biology book make that clear enough, as do their essential
confessions with the Wedge Strategy.

But beyond that, and in particular with this Top Six thing, RonO has latched onto
the fact that this Top Six thing, otherwise knowable as the best the ID folks
have to offer, would only yield a best false victories for them because if you
consider them honestly, and even granted some of their claims for arguments
sake, it would yield a series of "designers" that are far from what the people
behind the ID movement would like to promote. They are happy to sew doubt >>>>> about evolution and other naturalistic theories to account for 'Creation', but
they really don't want to commit to the patchwork suite of design interventions
scattered across space and time that their various claims about design >>>>> would imply.

He considers that to be very very important, and he thinks that almost nobody
appreciates the significance or legitimacy of that point. He also seems to jump
to the conclusion that people who criticize his methods are disagreeing with
him about issues of substance rather than those of style. This manifests as
him digging in deeper about how very profound he thinks his perspective is,
and apparently how stupid are those who don't see things his way.

There does appear to me to be a dash of megalomania to it. And I don't even
disagree much with most of his perspective, other than that there has been
some for of death blow inflicted. This is the internet, a ruthless and decisive
argument on one day may look deadly but the Black Knight comes right back >>>>> a day, a week, a month later completely oblivious to having been eviscerated.
Often, they repeat the same falsified claims, ignoring decisive references,
for no more reason than because nobody can stop them.

There are people that you just can't get through to, not even when you try
again with a different tack, and yet another different tack.

But it is a good lesson about delusions, especially any delusion that trying
another tack will work this time even if the previous 10 times didn't work.

Why keep up the denial and sour grapes? You were just wrong about what >>>> I was doing. The ID perps killed ID on TO. Most of TO didn't realize >>>> that, and obviously still don't realize that. Only the IDiots
understood what the ID perps had done and most of them quit. Dean never >>>> understood. He asked for assistance twice, but no one would help him out. >>>>
If anyone doesn't understand what happened 5 years ago, they should try >>>> to figure out what happened. Daggett's sour grapes about the issue is >>>> the only response to reality that TO can muster, and is the basis for
Mark Isaac's current campaign. They only want to make excuses for their >>>> own incompetence.

If you do not understand what happened 5 years ago, you should not join >>>> in on the stupidity. The only reason that the Top six remained a topic >>>> of discussion is due to IDiots like Glenn running from reality, and Dean >>>> being too incompetent to understand what had happened in his previous
encounters. Nyikos was just remaining willfully ignorant of the
situation because he has had to lie to himself about reality since
returning to TO. Some TO regulars like Daggett can't face reality as it >>>> has been for the last 5 years, and there are others that are still
clueless about what happened.

The first time that I realized that Mark and Daggett had missed the boat >>>> on what the ID perps had done to IDiocy, was when both of them falsely >>>> accused me of driving the IDiots away with some weird refutation of the >>>> Top Six. That would have been some type of miracle because the Top Six >>>> had been used by Biblical creationists for over a decade before the ID >>>> scam existed. All they had had to do was read one of the posts to
understand that I had not been doing that. Nyikos understood it with
the first Top Six post that I gave to him. The ID perps had made the
mistake of giving them the usual gap denial as a related group in the
order in which they must have logically occurred in this universe. The >>>> designer of the ID perp's Top Six best evidence for IDiocy is not the
designer of the Bible, and most of the IDiots could not deal with that >>>> reality and quit being IDiots.

If you do not understand what happened 5 years ago, you should not join >>>> Mark and Daggett on their current obfuscation and denial efforts.

I just tell things like they are, and if you can't deal with that, it is >>>> obviously your loss.

Who do you think you are actually going to convince by continuing as above? >>> Yourself?

I just tell things how they are. If you remain unable to face reality,
that is your issue, and obviously has been your loss. You should try to
figure out what the current situation is. It is as lame and stupid as I
have claimed.

Daggett above said: “…On most fronts, he is technically correct.

The ID movement is largely a fraud put forth by people with less than
honest motives…”

And: “…And I don't even disagree much with most of his perspective, other than that there has been some for of death blow inflicted…”

So Daggett isn’t too far opposed to you on basic points, but: “He also seems to jump to the conclusion that people who criticize his methods are disagreeing with him about issues of substance rather than those of style.”

So the reality Daggett puts forward has salience. And I dunno this current spotlighting on you not only puts you on the understandable defensive but
in the larger perspective may amount to making a mountain out of a
molehill. My point would remain to shift your approach a bit in the aspects people are tiring of. We all have our quirks.

You should just give up until you figure out what is going on. There is
no point in your continued efforts when you do not seem to want to come
to grips with why the sour grapes exist, and who is doing what due to
simply being wrong about something. That something will never change by
doing what they are doing.

Ron Okimoto

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/12/2023 6:54 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/12/2023 12:57 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/11/2023 8:58 PM, Lawyer Daggett wrote:

On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 9:12:06 PM UTC-5, Ron Dean wrote: >>>>>>> Mark Isaak wrote:

On 2023-12-10 5:19 PM, RonO wrote:

[...]
You guys should get together and figure out just what is going on if >>>>>>>>>> you can be honest enough with each other to do that.

Get Mark Isaac to tell you why he started the stupid issue.

I didn't start it. People have complained about your posting style for
years.

And you might consider that when multiple independent people say the >>>>>>>> problem is you, the most parsimonious explanation is that the problem is
you. Blaming other people, at that point, only serves to make you look
like a fool.

Why is Ron O so obsessed with the so- called "top six".

It's a complex thing but at heart he thinks that, at least as far as talk.origins
is concerned, there has been a decisive victory scored against the charlatans
who were promoting ID as a backdoor into schools as an alternative to >>>>>> evolution and the perceived dangers of naturalism in society. On most fronts,
he is technically correct.

The ID movement is largely a fraud put forth by people with less than honest
motives. Their cut and paste rewrite of a creationist biology to make it an
"Intelligent Design" biology book make that clear enough, as do their essential
confessions with the Wedge Strategy.

But beyond that, and in particular with this Top Six thing, RonO has latched onto
the fact that this Top Six thing, otherwise knowable as the best the ID folks
have to offer, would only yield a best false victories for them because if you
consider them honestly, and even granted some of their claims for arguments
sake, it would yield a series of "designers" that are far from what the people
behind the ID movement would like to promote. They are happy to sew doubt
about evolution and other naturalistic theories to account for 'Creation', but
they really don't want to commit to the patchwork suite of design interventions
scattered across space and time that their various claims about design >>>>>> would imply.

He considers that to be very very important, and he thinks that almost nobody
appreciates the significance or legitimacy of that point. He also seems to jump
to the conclusion that people who criticize his methods are disagreeing with
him about issues of substance rather than those of style. This manifests as
him digging in deeper about how very profound he thinks his perspective is,
and apparently how stupid are those who don't see things his way.

There does appear to me to be a dash of megalomania to it. And I don't even
disagree much with most of his perspective, other than that there has been
some for of death blow inflicted. This is the internet, a ruthless and decisive
argument on one day may look deadly but the Black Knight comes right back
a day, a week, a month later completely oblivious to having been eviscerated.
Often, they repeat the same falsified claims, ignoring decisive references,
for no more reason than because nobody can stop them.

There are people that you just can't get through to, not even when you try
again with a different tack, and yet another different tack.

But it is a good lesson about delusions, especially any delusion that trying
another tack will work this time even if the previous 10 times didn't work.

Why keep up the denial and sour grapes? You were just wrong about what >>>>> I was doing. The ID perps killed ID on TO. Most of TO didn't realize >>>>> that, and obviously still don't realize that. Only the IDiots
understood what the ID perps had done and most of them quit. Dean never >>>>> understood. He asked for assistance twice, but no one would help him out.

If anyone doesn't understand what happened 5 years ago, they should try >>>>> to figure out what happened. Daggett's sour grapes about the issue is >>>>> the only response to reality that TO can muster, and is the basis for >>>>> Mark Isaac's current campaign. They only want to make excuses for their >>>>> own incompetence.

If you do not understand what happened 5 years ago, you should not join >>>>> in on the stupidity. The only reason that the Top six remained a topic >>>>> of discussion is due to IDiots like Glenn running from reality, and Dean >>>>> being too incompetent to understand what had happened in his previous >>>>> encounters. Nyikos was just remaining willfully ignorant of the
situation because he has had to lie to himself about reality since
returning to TO. Some TO regulars like Daggett can't face reality as it >>>>> has been for the last 5 years, and there are others that are still
clueless about what happened.

The first time that I realized that Mark and Daggett had missed the boat >>>>> on what the ID perps had done to IDiocy, was when both of them falsely >>>>> accused me of driving the IDiots away with some weird refutation of the >>>>> Top Six. That would have been some type of miracle because the Top Six >>>>> had been used by Biblical creationists for over a decade before the ID >>>>> scam existed. All they had had to do was read one of the posts to
understand that I had not been doing that. Nyikos understood it with >>>>> the first Top Six post that I gave to him. The ID perps had made the >>>>> mistake of giving them the usual gap denial as a related group in the >>>>> order in which they must have logically occurred in this universe. The >>>>> designer of the ID perp's Top Six best evidence for IDiocy is not the >>>>> designer of the Bible, and most of the IDiots could not deal with that >>>>> reality and quit being IDiots.

If you do not understand what happened 5 years ago, you should not join >>>>> Mark and Daggett on their current obfuscation and denial efforts.

I just tell things like they are, and if you can't deal with that, it is >>>>> obviously your loss.

Who do you think you are actually going to convince by continuing as above?
Yourself?

I just tell things how they are. If you remain unable to face reality,
that is your issue, and obviously has been your loss. You should try to >>> figure out what the current situation is. It is as lame and stupid as I >>> have claimed.

Daggett above said: “…On most fronts, he is technically correct.

The ID movement is largely a fraud put forth by people with less than
honest motives…”

And: “…And I don't even disagree much with most of his perspective, other
than that there has been some for of death blow inflicted…”

So Daggett isn’t too far opposed to you on basic points, but: “He also >> seems to jump to the conclusion that people who criticize his methods are
disagreeing with him about issues of substance rather than those of style.”

So the reality Daggett puts forward has salience. And I dunno this current >> spotlighting on you not only puts you on the understandable defensive but
in the larger perspective may amount to making a mountain out of a
molehill. My point would remain to shift your approach a bit in the aspects >> people are tiring of. We all have our quirks.

You should just give up until you figure out what is going on. There is
no point in your continued efforts when you do not seem to want to come
to grips with why the sour grapes exist, and who is doing what due to
simply being wrong about something. That something will never change by doing what they are doing.

So I should give up on you then? Maybe I don’t want to. I agree the collective dogpile has been a bit much but I’d hope you could be more self-reflective.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 20:20:06 -0500
Ron Dean <rondean-noreply@gmail.com> wrote:

*Hemidactylus* wrote:

The ID movement is largely a fraud put forth by people with less than honest motives…”

Disagree. Decades ago I came to a very similar conclusion and this was
before I ever heard of intelligent design. When I first discovered ID I
was surprised how close I had independently arrived at a similar position.

You read one book that's been widely discredited here, yet you remain
firmly committed to this illogical viewpoint?

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/12/2023 8:45 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/12/2023 6:54 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/12/2023 12:57 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/11/2023 8:58 PM, Lawyer Daggett wrote:

On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 9:12:06 PM UTC-5, Ron Dean wrote: >>>>>>>> Mark Isaak wrote:

On 2023-12-10 5:19 PM, RonO wrote:

[...]
You guys should get together and figure out just what is going on if
you can be honest enough with each other to do that.

Get Mark Isaac to tell you why he started the stupid issue. >>>>>>>>>

I didn't start it. People have complained about your posting style for
years.

And you might consider that when multiple independent people say the >>>>>>>>> problem is you, the most parsimonious explanation is that the problem is
you. Blaming other people, at that point, only serves to make you look
like a fool.

Why is Ron O so obsessed with the so- called "top six".

It's a complex thing but at heart he thinks that, at least as far as talk.origins
is concerned, there has been a decisive victory scored against the charlatans
who were promoting ID as a backdoor into schools as an alternative to >>>>>>> evolution and the perceived dangers of naturalism in society. On most fronts,
he is technically correct.

The ID movement is largely a fraud put forth by people with less than honest
motives. Their cut and paste rewrite of a creationist biology to make it an
"Intelligent Design" biology book make that clear enough, as do their essential
confessions with the Wedge Strategy.

But beyond that, and in particular with this Top Six thing, RonO has latched onto
the fact that this Top Six thing, otherwise knowable as the best the ID folks
have to offer, would only yield a best false victories for them because if you
consider them honestly, and even granted some of their claims for arguments
sake, it would yield a series of "designers" that are far from what the people
behind the ID movement would like to promote. They are happy to sew doubt
about evolution and other naturalistic theories to account for 'Creation', but
they really don't want to commit to the patchwork suite of design interventions
scattered across space and time that their various claims about design >>>>>>> would imply.

He considers that to be very very important, and he thinks that almost nobody
appreciates the significance or legitimacy of that point. He also seems to jump
to the conclusion that people who criticize his methods are disagreeing with
him about issues of substance rather than those of style. This manifests as
him digging in deeper about how very profound he thinks his perspective is,
and apparently how stupid are those who don't see things his way. >>>>>>>
There does appear to me to be a dash of megalomania to it. And I don't even
disagree much with most of his perspective, other than that there has been
some for of death blow inflicted. This is the internet, a ruthless and decisive
argument on one day may look deadly but the Black Knight comes right back
a day, a week, a month later completely oblivious to having been eviscerated.
Often, they repeat the same falsified claims, ignoring decisive references,
for no more reason than because nobody can stop them.

There are people that you just can't get through to, not even when you try
again with a different tack, and yet another different tack.

But it is a good lesson about delusions, especially any delusion that trying
another tack will work this time even if the previous 10 times didn't work.

Why keep up the denial and sour grapes? You were just wrong about what >>>>>> I was doing. The ID perps killed ID on TO. Most of TO didn't realize >>>>>> that, and obviously still don't realize that. Only the IDiots
understood what the ID perps had done and most of them quit. Dean never >>>>>> understood. He asked for assistance twice, but no one would help him out.

If anyone doesn't understand what happened 5 years ago, they should try >>>>>> to figure out what happened. Daggett's sour grapes about the issue is >>>>>> the only response to reality that TO can muster, and is the basis for >>>>>> Mark Isaac's current campaign. They only want to make excuses for their >>>>>> own incompetence.

If you do not understand what happened 5 years ago, you should not join >>>>>> in on the stupidity. The only reason that the Top six remained a topic >>>>>> of discussion is due to IDiots like Glenn running from reality, and Dean >>>>>> being too incompetent to understand what had happened in his previous >>>>>> encounters. Nyikos was just remaining willfully ignorant of the
situation because he has had to lie to himself about reality since >>>>>> returning to TO. Some TO regulars like Daggett can't face reality as it >>>>>> has been for the last 5 years, and there are others that are still >>>>>> clueless about what happened.

The first time that I realized that Mark and Daggett had missed the boat >>>>>> on what the ID perps had done to IDiocy, was when both of them falsely >>>>>> accused me of driving the IDiots away with some weird refutation of the >>>>>> Top Six. That would have been some type of miracle because the Top Six >>>>>> had been used by Biblical creationists for over a decade before the ID >>>>>> scam existed. All they had had to do was read one of the posts to >>>>>> understand that I had not been doing that. Nyikos understood it with >>>>>> the first Top Six post that I gave to him. The ID perps had made the >>>>>> mistake of giving them the usual gap denial as a related group in the >>>>>> order in which they must have logically occurred in this universe. The >>>>>> designer of the ID perp's Top Six best evidence for IDiocy is not the >>>>>> designer of the Bible, and most of the IDiots could not deal with that >>>>>> reality and quit being IDiots.

If you do not understand what happened 5 years ago, you should not join >>>>>> Mark and Daggett on their current obfuscation and denial efforts.

I just tell things like they are, and if you can't deal with that, it is >>>>>> obviously your loss.

Who do you think you are actually going to convince by continuing as above?
Yourself?

I just tell things how they are. If you remain unable to face reality, >>>> that is your issue, and obviously has been your loss. You should try to >>>> figure out what the current situation is. It is as lame and stupid as I >>>> have claimed.

Daggett above said: “…On most fronts, he is technically correct.

The ID movement is largely a fraud put forth by people with less than
honest motives…”

And: “…And I don't even disagree much with most of his perspective, other
than that there has been some for of death blow inflicted…”

So Daggett isn’t too far opposed to you on basic points, but: “He also >>> seems to jump to the conclusion that people who criticize his methods are >>> disagreeing with him about issues of substance rather than those of style.”

So the reality Daggett puts forward has salience. And I dunno this current >>> spotlighting on you not only puts you on the understandable defensive but >>> in the larger perspective may amount to making a mountain out of a
molehill. My point would remain to shift your approach a bit in the aspects >>> people are tiring of. We all have our quirks.

You should just give up until you figure out what is going on. There is
no point in your continued efforts when you do not seem to want to come
to grips with why the sour grapes exist, and who is doing what due to
simply being wrong about something. That something will never change by
doing what they are doing.

So I should give up on you then? Maybe I don’t want to. I agree the collective dogpile has been a bit much but I’d hope you could be more self-reflective.

You should just give up on what you are currently doing until you
understand what the situation actually is. Going forward with the same misconceptions is just stupid. Get Mark Isaac to explain it to you. My
guess is that you should have realized by now that you should be more
self reflective.

Ron Okimoto

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday 14 December 2023 at 02:07:08 UTC+2, RonO wrote:

Get Mark Isaac to explain it to you.

Perhaps Isaak and Isaac (and Arab Ishak) are made from Hebrew male
first name Yitzhak "laughing". I have seen Isaac used as forename or
middle name and Isaak as surname. With "Mark Isaac" I expect
it to be first part of some Hispanic full name like "Mark Isaac
Estrada" or something. Why you are doing that with Mark Isaak's
apparent surname? Maybe you should give up doing that?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/12/2023 8:45 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

[-]

So I should give up on you then? Maybe I don't want to. I agree the collective dogpile has been a bit much but I'd hope you could be more self-reflective.

You should just give up on what you are currently doing until you
understand what the situation actually is. Going forward with the same misconceptions is just stupid. Get Mark Isaac to explain it to you. My guess is that you should have realized by now that you should be more
self reflective.

Ron Okimoto

Just curious.
Have you ever considered taking your own advice?

Jan

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 12/14/2023 4:17 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/12/2023 8:45 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

[-]

So I should give up on you then? Maybe I don't want to. I agree the
collective dogpile has been a bit much but I'd hope you could be more
self-reflective.

You should just give up on what you are currently doing until you
understand what the situation actually is. Going forward with the same
misconceptions is just stupid. Get Mark Isaac to explain it to you. My
guess is that you should have realized by now that you should be more
self reflective.

Ron Okimoto

Just curious.
Have you ever considered taking your own advice?

Jan

Have you considered getting together with the others in order to figure
out if you want to keep doing the stupid things that are currently
occurring?

Ron Okimoto

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 12/14/2023 3:08 AM, Öö Tiib wrote:

On Thursday 14 December 2023 at 02:07:08 UTC+2, RonO wrote:

Get Mark Isaac to explain it to you.

Perhaps Isaak and Isaac (and Arab Ishak) are made from Hebrew male
first name Yitzhak "laughing". I have seen Isaac used as forename or
middle name and Isaak as surname. With "Mark Isaac" I expect
it to be first part of some Hispanic full name like "Mark Isaac
Estrada" or something. Why you are doing that with Mark Isaak's
apparent surname? Maybe you should give up doing that?

This is the only type of support Mark can get?

Ron Okimoto

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday 14 December 2023 at 13:37:09 UTC+2, RonO wrote:

On 12/14/2023 3:08 AM, Öö Tiib wrote:

On Thursday 14 December 2023 at 02:07:08 UTC+2, RonO wrote:

Get Mark Isaac to explain it to you.

Perhaps Isaak and Isaac (and Arab Ishak) are made from Hebrew male
first name Yitzhak "laughing". I have seen Isaac used as forename or middle name and Isaak as surname. With "Mark Isaac" I expect
it to be first part of some Hispanic full name like "Mark Isaac
Estrada" or something. Why you are doing that with Mark Isaak's
apparent surname? Maybe you should give up doing that?

This is the only type of support Mark can get?

Support in what? I did not even think he needs support. Most creationists
have dropped interest in evolutionnews and uncommondecent years ago.
The uncommondecent is pretty much dead. Debate for creationists now
goes elsewhere like in youtube, answersingenesis, reasons and biologos.

Majority of TO regulars seem to think (and also for years) that your perps, rubes, bait and switch, IDiot rants beat dead horse and are getting boring. That sentiment has been routinely expressed before, so should not
surprise you. DI can recover, but it has to come out with something
innovative for that and hasn't done any.

So only thing I saw might be worth adding is that Isaak/Isaac spelling
issue.

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RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/14/2023 4:17 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/12/2023 8:45 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

[-]

So I should give up on you then? Maybe I don't want to. I agree the
collective dogpile has been a bit much but I'd hope you could be more
self-reflective.

You should just give up on what you are currently doing until you
understand what the situation actually is. Going forward with the same
misconceptions is just stupid. Get Mark Isaac to explain it to you. My >> guess is that you should have realized by now that you should be more
self reflective.

Ron Okimoto

Just curious.
Have you ever considered taking your own advice?

Jan

Have you considered getting together with the others in order to figure
out if you want to keep doing the stupid things that are currently
occurring?

Ron Okimoto

I'll take that for a no,

Jan

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RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/14/2023 4:17 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/12/2023 8:45 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

[-]

So I should give up on you then? Maybe I don't want to. I agree the
collective dogpile has been a bit much but I'd hope you could be more
self-reflective.

You should just give up on what you are currently doing until you
understand what the situation actually is. Going forward with the same
misconceptions is just stupid. Get Mark Isaac to explain it to you. My >>> guess is that you should have realized by now that you should be more
self reflective.

Ron Okimoto

Just curious.
Have you ever considered taking your own advice?

Jan

Have you considered getting together with the others in order to figure
out if you want to keep doing the stupid things that are currently
occurring?

Have you considered reading your more repetitive posts from an outsider perspective? What if you weren’t you? You’ve already gotten enough feedback recently to see what others feel about those types of posts so you don’t
have to ask. Saying all these people are doing stupid things is coming from your somewhat blinkered perspective.

As an alternative your “Artifact of Baysian analysis” post has gotten positive responses.

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On 12/14/2023 5:26 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/14/2023 4:17 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:

RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

On 12/12/2023 8:45 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

[-]

So I should give up on you then? Maybe I don't want to. I agree the
collective dogpile has been a bit much but I'd hope you could be more >>>>> self-reflective.

You should just give up on what you are currently doing until you
understand what the situation actually is. Going forward with the same >>>> misconceptions is just stupid. Get Mark Isaac to explain it to you. My >>>> guess is that you should have realized by now that you should be more
self reflective.

Ron Okimoto

Just curious.
Have you ever considered taking your own advice?

Jan

Have you considered getting together with the others in order to figure
out if you want to keep doing the stupid things that are currently
occurring?

Have you considered reading your more repetitive posts from an outsider perspective? What if you weren’t you? You’ve already gotten enough feedback
recently to see what others feel about those types of posts so you don’t have to ask. Saying all these people are doing stupid things is coming from your somewhat blinkered perspective.

As an alternative your “Artifact of Baysian analysis” post has gotten positive responses.

I guess that you guys are hopeless.

Ron Okimoto

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