On 14/12/2024 16:32, erik simpson wrote:

On 12/14/24 6:58 AM, Chris Thompson wrote:

https://scitechdaily.com/rewriting-evolution-study-shows-neanderthals-
and-humans-were-not-the-same-species/

Interesting paper.  It's turning out that species is a slippery concept.
 If two species never interbreed, they're clearly separate.  If the occasionally interbreed, they may still be separate, but how
occasionally?  I'd agree that Neanderthals are separate.  It's
interesting that interbreedability can go on for a surprisingly long
time, hundreds of thousands of years.  Some plants are still separate species after tens of millions of years of interbreeding.

Some plants are still interfertile after tens of millions of years of
presumed isolation. For example North American and European species of
lime (basswood), oak, plane, poplar, and horse chestnut (buckeye). Is
that what you meant; if not I'm curious what taxa you have evidence for
tens of millions of interbreeding; I would have thought that evidence
for such would be hard to come by.

--
alias Ernest Major

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On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 17:22:24 -0600, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>:

Commenting solely on the subject, my recollection is that
the accepted taxonomy was that there were two subspecies: H.
sapiens sapiens and H. sapiens neanderthalensis. Is that now
considered to be incorrect?

On 12/14/2024 12:21 PM, Ernest Major wrote:
On 14/12/2024 16:32, erik simpson wrote:

On 12/14/24 6:58 AM, Chris Thompson wrote:

https://scitechdaily.com/rewriting-evolution-study-shows-
neanderthals- and-humans-were-not-the-same-species/

Interesting paper.  It's turning out that species is a slippery
concept.   If two species never interbreed, they're clearly separate.
If the occasionally interbreed, they may still be separate, but how
occasionally?  I'd agree that Neanderthals are separate.  It's
interesting that interbreedability can go on for a surprisingly long
time, hundreds of thousands of years.  Some plants are still separate
species after tens of millions of years of interbreeding.

Some plants are still interfertile after tens of millions of years of
presumed isolation. For example North American and European species of
lime (basswood), oak, plane, poplar, and horse chestnut (buckeye). Is
that what you meant; if not I'm curious what taxa you have evidence for
tens of millions of interbreeding; I would have thought that evidence
for such would be hard to come by.

Brassicaceae should count. Many hybrids are viable and have produced
new crop plants. Think of broccoflower (broccoli and cauliflower).

They wanted to put restrictions on making them roundup resistant because
so many weed plants interbreed with them that the resistance was likely
going to get into the weeds.

Ron Okimoto

--

Bob C.

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"

- Isaac Asimov

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On 26/12/2024 23:22, RonO wrote:

On 12/14/2024 12:21 PM, Ernest Major wrote:

On 14/12/2024 16:32, erik simpson wrote:

On 12/14/24 6:58 AM, Chris Thompson wrote:

https://scitechdaily.com/rewriting-evolution-study-shows-
neanderthals- and-humans-were-not-the-same-species/

Interesting paper.  It's turning out that species is a slippery
concept.   If two species never interbreed, they're clearly separate.
If the occasionally interbreed, they may still be separate, but how
occasionally?  I'd agree that Neanderthals are separate.  It's
interesting that interbreedability can go on for a surprisingly long
time, hundreds of thousands of years.  Some plants are still separate
species after tens of millions of years of interbreeding.

Some plants are still interfertile after tens of millions of years of
presumed isolation. For example North American and European species of
lime (basswood), oak, plane, poplar, and horse chestnut (buckeye). Is
that what you meant; if not I'm curious what taxa you have evidence
for tens of millions of interbreeding; I would have thought that
evidence for such would be hard to come by.

Brassicaceae should count.  Many hybrids are viable and have produced
new crop plants.  Think of broccoflower (broccoli and cauliflower).

Brassica oleracea is a cultigen which is only a few thousand years old. broccoli (italica) and romanesco broccoli/cauliflower (botrytis) are
sister groups within oleracea (or the latter nested in the former). I
would have guessed that they had only been separated for several hundred
years, but the literature puts their origin at around 2,000 years ago.

Broccoflower doesn't appear to be a broccoli/cauliflower hybrid. Instead
it is a name applied to green-headed cauliflowers (cauliflowers come in
white, green, orange and red/purple) and to romanesco broccoli. The line
of evolution may be kale -> broccoli -> romanesco -> cauliflower.

They wanted to put restrictions on making them roundup resistant because
so many weed plants interbreed with them that the resistance was likely
going to get into the weeds.

There are weedy forms of Brassica oleracea and Brassica rapa in Britain,
and Brassica napus readily goes feral. Beyond these hybridisation with
other species of subtribe Brassicinae is well known - though the
apparent tendency to wide hybridisation may be an illusion caused by
extensive study (wheat shows the same phenomenon), and other groups of
plants would show the same if studied to the same depth.

Ron Okimoto

--
alias Ernest Major

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On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 21:45:25 -0800, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by erik simpson
<eastside.erik@gmail.com>:

On 12/26/24 5:28 PM, Bob Casanova wrote:

On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 17:22:24 -0600, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>:

Commenting solely on the subject, my recollection is that
the accepted taxonomy was that there were two subspecies: H.
sapiens sapiens and H. sapiens neanderthalensis. Is that now
considered to be incorrect?

On 12/14/2024 12:21 PM, Ernest Major wrote:
On 14/12/2024 16:32, erik simpson wrote:

On 12/14/24 6:58 AM, Chris Thompson wrote:

https://scitechdaily.com/rewriting-evolution-study-shows-
neanderthals- and-humans-were-not-the-same-species/

Interesting paper.  It's turning out that species is a slippery
concept.   If two species never interbreed, they're clearly separate. >>>>> If the occasionally interbreed, they may still be separate, but how
occasionally?  I'd agree that Neanderthals are separate.  It's
interesting that interbreedability can go on for a surprisingly long >>>>> time, hundreds of thousands of years.  Some plants are still separate >>>>> species after tens of millions of years of interbreeding.

Some plants are still interfertile after tens of millions of years of
presumed isolation. For example North American and European species of >>>> lime (basswood), oak, plane, poplar, and horse chestnut (buckeye). Is
that what you meant; if not I'm curious what taxa you have evidence for >>>> tens of millions of interbreeding; I would have thought that evidence
for such would be hard to come by.

Brassicaceae should count. Many hybrids are viable and have produced
new crop plants. Think of broccoflower (broccoli and cauliflower).

They wanted to put restrictions on making them roundup resistant because >>> so many weed plants interbreed with them that the resistance was likely
going to get into the weeds.

Ron Okimoto

One a quick review, it,s safe to say the issue isn't settled, nor is
likely to be in the near future.

OK; thanks. As several others (including our own John
Wilkins) have noted, there's really no single firm
definition of species, so I'm not really surprised; I just
thought I may have missed some recent "breakthrough".

--

Bob C.

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"

- Isaac Asimov

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