• It Sure Looks Like the Supreme Court Is Going to Make the Anti-Gunners

    From max headroom@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 5 11:57:31 2025
    It Sure Looks Like the Supreme Court Is Going to Make the Anti-Gunners Cry

    Jeff Charles

    The Supreme Court on Tuesday heard arguments from lawyers in Mexico's $10 million lawsuit against American gun manufacturers.

    The Mexican government alleges that U.S. gun manufacturers are responsible for fueling drug cartel violence in the country due to their marketing practices.

    Democratic attorneys general have sided with the Mexican government, claiming that manufacturers like Smith & Wesson, Colt, Glock Inc., Ruger, and three others should be held accountable for cartel violence in Mexico.

    Conservatives have loudly criticized Mexico's lawsuit, arguing that its government is simply using these companies as a scapegoat for a problem it has failed to solve. They argue that allowing a foreign government to infringe on the Second Amendment through our court system only grants them more power than they should have.

    Mexico claimed that U.S. gun manufacturers design, market, and distribute firearms to criminal organizations. Its government accused these companies of knowingly facilitating illegal gun trafficking into the nation, thereby arming the cartels.

    During oral arguments, the Supreme Court seemed skeptical of Mexico's insistence
    that U.S. gun manufacturers should be held liable for cartel violence.

    Elizabeth Prelogar, the attorney representing the Mexican government, claimed these companies "deliberately supply the illegal Mexican market by selling guns through the small number of dealers that they know sell a large number of crime guns and who repeatedly sell in bulk to the cartel traffickers."

    She further noted that Mexican authorities "have repeatedly identified and recovered defendants' guns in connection with notorious gun trafficking rings" and that the companies "continue to sell to dealers that have been flagged for illegal sales, demonstrating a knowing and deliberate strategy."

    Prelogar argued that Colt, in particular, "produces three models of guns that it
    specifically targets to the Mexican market, the Super El Jefe, the Super El Grito, and the Emiliano Zapata 1911."

    Mexico has strict gun laws. Its citizens are only allowed to purchase firearms from the country's sole gun store after jumping through a series of hoops to obtain a permit.

    The attorney accused the companies of advertising their firearms as "military grade" and featuring imagery "that directly appeals to criminal buyers."

    Conversely, Noel Francisco, the attorney representing the gun manufacturers, contended that Mexico's lawsuit lacks proximate cause and fails to meet the criteria for aiding and abetting liability under U.S. law. He noted that "None of my clients actually sell to consumers" but that they "manufacture firearms that are then distributed through licensed dealers."

    Francisco further pointed out that "There are multiple independent crimes that break the chain of causation: Straw purchases, smuggling, illegal possession, and cartel violence."

    He asked, "If the government doesn't know which retailers are engaged in illegal
    activity, how are we supposed to know?"

    The attorney compared this case to Twitter v. Taamneh, in which the court ruled that the social media platform knowing that terrorists use its service "was not enough for aiding and abetting liability-this case is even weaker."

    Both liberal and conservatives on the court seemed to doubt Mexico's claims. Justice Brett Kavanaugh asked:

    What do you do with the suggestion on the other side and in the amicus briefs that your theory of aiding and abetting liability would have destructive effects
    on the American economy in the sense that, as you've read in the briefs, lots of
    sellers and manufacturers of ordinary products know that they're going to be misused by some subset of people. We know that to a certainty, that it's going to be pharmaceuticals, cars, you can name lots of products. That's a real concern, I think, for me, about accepting your theory of aiding and abetting liability.

    Justice Samuel Alito indicated that if Mexico's lawsuit were allowed to go forward, it could gut the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA), which protects gun manufacturers and dealers from most lawsuits when their firearms are used to commit crimes. It does include exceptions if manufacturers deliberately violate gun laws or are found to be negligent.

    "If you accept their interpretation of the PLCAA exception, you will have revived exactly the same type of lawsuit that PLCAA was meant to prohibit when they adopted the statute in the first place," Alito said.

    Justice Ketanji Brown-Jackson appeared to agree with Alito, stating that Mexico's
    lawsuit amounts to "different kinds of regulatory constraints that I'm thinking Congress didn't want the courts to be the ones to impose."

    Justice Sonia Sotomayor asserted that the manufacturers having knowledge that their products could be used to commit violent crime "is not enough."

    "You have to aid and abet in some way," she continued. "You have to intend and take affirmative action to . participate in what they're doing.'

    All indications seem to suggest that the Supreme Court will rule against the Mexican government, which is a positive sign for gun rights.

    If gun manufacturers are held liable for those who misuse their products, it would constitute a direct threat to the Second Amendment. It would mean victims of gun violence - and their families - would be able to sue these companies for the actions of violent criminals.

    Paying to defend themselves against these lawsuits would be quite costly. We can
    already imagine how the anti-gunner lobby in the U.S. would exploit these deaths
    to financially cripple gun manufacturers.

    This would mean that Americans would incur higher costs associated with purchasing firearms, which would be an indirect attack on the Second Amendment. After all, what's the use of protecting the right to keep and bear arms when nobody can afford to purchase these arms?

    The fact that Democratic officials actually sided with a foreign government seeking to diminish Second Amendment protections shows just how far they will go
    to disarm the public. It's a good thing that they probably won't win this battle.

    https://townhall.com/tipsheet/jeff-charles/2025/03/04/scotus-to-hear-smith-and-wesson-vs-mexicos-government-n2650144

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Khil Philed@21:1/5 to max headroom on Wed Mar 5 21:55:36 2025
    XPost: alt.politics.guns, alt.sport.shooting

    "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> wrote in news:vqaach$2ihbn$3@dont-email.me:

    It Sure Looks Like the Supreme Court Is Going to Make the Anti-Gunners
    Cry

    Jeff Charles

    The Supreme Court on Tuesday heard arguments from lawyers in Mexico's
    $10 million lawsuit against American gun manufacturers.

    $10 billion, not that it's going to matter.

    The Mexican government alleges that U.S. gun manufacturers are
    responsible for fueling drug cartel violence in the country due to
    their marketing practices.

    Doesn't fly. The drug cartels are a Mexico problem. If they didn't have
    guns they'd use machetes. Oh wait.

    Democratic attorneys general have sided with the Mexican government,
    claiming that manufacturers like Smith & Wesson, Colt, Glock Inc.,
    Ruger, and three others should be held accountable for cartel violence
    in Mexico.

    List them all as enemies of the Republic.

    Conservatives have loudly criticized Mexico's lawsuit, arguing that
    its government is simply using these companies as a scapegoat for a
    problem it has failed to solve. They argue that allowing a foreign
    government to infringe on the Second Amendment through our court
    system only grants them more power than they should have.

    100% agree.

    Mexico claimed that U.S. gun manufacturers design, market, and
    distribute firearms to criminal organizations. Its government accused
    these companies of knowingly facilitating illegal gun trafficking into
    the nation, thereby arming the cartels.

    During oral arguments, the Supreme Court seemed skeptical of Mexico's insistence that U.S. gun manufacturers should be held liable for
    cartel violence.

    Elizabeth Prelogar, the attorney representing the Mexican government,
    claimed these companies "deliberately supply the illegal Mexican
    market by selling guns through the small number of dealers that they
    know sell a large number of crime guns and who repeatedly sell in bulk
    to the cartel traffickers."

    Ford, GMC, Honda, Mercedes are not responmsible for how their vehicles are driven, gun manufacturers should receive the same consideration.

    She further noted that Mexican authorities "have repeatedly identified
    and recovered defendants' guns in connection with notorious gun
    trafficking rings" and that the companies "continue to sell to dealers
    that have been flagged for illegal sales, demonstrating a knowing and deliberate strategy."

    Prelogar argued that Colt, in particular, "produces three models of
    guns that it specifically targets to the Mexican market, the Super El
    Jefe, the Super El Grito, and the Emiliano Zapata 1911."

    Mexico has strict gun laws. Its citizens are only allowed to purchase firearms from the country's sole gun store after jumping through a
    series of hoops to obtain a permit.

    Seems to be an "open border" problem then, doesn't it?

    The attorney accused the companies of advertising their firearms as
    "military grade" and featuring imagery "that directly appeals to
    criminal buyers."

    My MSI computer system board is "Military Grade".

    Conversely, Noel Francisco, the attorney representing the gun
    manufacturers, contended that Mexico's lawsuit lacks proximate cause
    and fails to meet the criteria for aiding and abetting liability under
    U.S. law. He noted that "None of my clients actually sell to
    consumers" but that they "manufacture firearms that are then
    distributed through licensed dealers."

    Francisco further pointed out that "There are multiple independent
    crimes that break the chain of causation: Straw purchases, smuggling,
    illegal possession, and cartel violence."

    Point.

    He asked, "If the government doesn't know which retailers are engaged
    in illegal activity, how are we supposed to know?"

    The attorney compared this case to Twitter v. Taamneh, in which the
    court ruled that the social media platform knowing that terrorists use
    its service "was not enough for aiding and abetting liability-this
    case is even weaker."

    Point.

    Both liberal and conservatives on the court seemed to doubt Mexico's
    claims. Justice Brett Kavanaugh asked:

    What do you do with the suggestion on the other side and in the
    amicus briefs
    that your theory of aiding and abetting liability would have
    destructive effects on the American economy in the sense that, as
    you've read in the briefs, lots of sellers and manufacturers of
    ordinary products know that they're going to be misused by some subset
    of people. We know that to a certainty, that it's going to be pharmaceuticals, cars, you can name lots of products. That's a real
    concern, I think, for me, about accepting your theory of aiding and
    abetting liability.

    Justice Samuel Alito indicated that if Mexico's lawsuit were allowed
    to go forward, it could gut the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms
    Act (PLCAA), which protects gun manufacturers and dealers from most
    lawsuits when their firearms are used to commit crimes. It does
    include exceptions if manufacturers deliberately violate gun laws or
    are found to be negligent.

    "If you accept their interpretation of the PLCAA exception, you will
    have revived exactly the same type of lawsuit that PLCAA was meant to prohibit when they adopted the statute in the first place," Alito
    said.

    Point.

    Justice Ketanji Brown-Jackson appeared to agree with Alito, stating
    that Mexico's
    lawsuit amounts to "different kinds of regulatory constraints that I'm thinking Congress didn't want the courts to be the ones to impose."

    Justice Sonia Sotomayor asserted that the manufacturers having
    knowledge that their products could be used to commit violent crime
    "is not enough."

    "You have to aid and abet in some way," she continued. "You have to
    intend and take affirmative action to . participate in what they're
    doing.'

    All indications seem to suggest that the Supreme Court will rule
    against the Mexican government, which is a positive sign for gun
    rights.

    Point, set.

    If gun manufacturers are held liable for those who misuse their
    products, it would constitute a direct threat to the Second Amendment.
    It would mean victims of gun violence - and their families - would be
    able to sue these companies for the actions of violent criminals.

    Paying to defend themselves against these lawsuits would be quite
    costly. We can already imagine how the anti-gunner lobby in the U.S.
    would exploit these deaths to financially cripple gun manufacturers.

    This would mean that Americans would incur higher costs associated
    with purchasing firearms, which would be an indirect attack on the
    Second Amendment. After all, what's the use of protecting the right to
    keep and bear arms when nobody can afford to purchase these arms?

    The fact that Democratic officials actually sided with a foreign
    government seeking to diminish Second Amendment protections shows just
    how far they will go to disarm the public. It's a good thing that they probably won't win this battle.

    https://townhall.com/tipsheet/jeff-charles/2025/03/04/scotus-to-hear-sm ith-and-wesson-vs-mexicos-government-n2650144

    Democrats are public enemy #1.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scout@21:1/5 to max headroom on Thu Mar 6 07:51:52 2025
    "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> wrote in message news:vqaach$2ihbn$3@dont-email.me...
    It Sure Looks Like the Supreme Court Is Going to Make the Anti-Gunners Cry

    Jeff Charles

    The Supreme Court on Tuesday heard arguments from lawyers in Mexico's $10 million lawsuit against American gun manufacturers.

    The Mexican government alleges that U.S. gun manufacturers are responsible for
    fueling drug cartel violence in the country due to their marketing
    practices.

    Democratic attorneys general have sided with the Mexican government,
    claiming
    that manufacturers like Smith & Wesson, Colt, Glock Inc., Ruger, and three others should be held accountable for cartel violence in Mexico.

    Conservatives have loudly criticized Mexico's lawsuit, arguing that its government is simply using these companies as a scapegoat for a problem it has
    failed to solve. They argue that allowing a foreign government to infringe
    on
    the Second Amendment through our court system only grants them more power than
    they should have.

    Mexico claimed that U.S. gun manufacturers design, market, and distribute firearms to criminal organizations. Its government accused these companies
    of
    knowingly facilitating illegal gun trafficking into the nation, thereby arming
    the cartels.

    Well.. May I just say that if, and that's a big if, they could actually show the companies are doing that, then they might have a case, but I'm pretty
    sure the only sales those companies have made to Mexico are for Government purchases or Government approved gun dealers. Companies are not responsible
    for any illegal actions taken with their products.

    During oral arguments, the Supreme Court seemed skeptical of Mexico's insistence
    that U.S. gun manufacturers should be held liable for cartel violence.

    Really? As if the US gun manufacturers are running the cartels and telling
    them what to do?

    But ok.. we will counter sue the Mexican government for enabling their criminals to smuggle drugs, money and people into our country and all crime that results from that. .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)