As of today, May 31, 2025, the Gun Violence Archive reports 5,963
gun-related deaths in the United States for the year 2025. This
includes homicides, unintentional shootings, and DGW (death by gunshot
wound) in general. These are all based on findings by (at least) a
medical examiner who is a sworn "finder of fact". IOW, the finding
holds unless compelling contradictory evidence is introduced and
documented.

As of today, May 31, 2025, there have been zero documented defensive
gun uses in the United States for the year 2025. You might notice
that I avoid the acronym "DGU", popularized by Dr Kleck's '90s surveys
where the researcher defines a "DGU" as an answer to an anonymous
telephone survey... if it's your survey, you may define it any way you
wish. To be a "defensive gun use", the incident must be tested by the scientific method resulting in a finding by a "finder of fact", such
as a judge, medical examiner... a police report that entered a
specific finding stating that it was, in fact, an act of self defense
would work if the finding were explicit.

News media reports don't count for either.

Given the massive number of DGW in the US, one can apply the "space
alien argument" that goes: "If there are 100K UFO sightings, only
*one* has to be a real spaceship full of extraterrestrial space aliens
for them to exist... and there's likely one valid defensive gun use,
but we can't put a probability on it.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/31/25 09:07, Hut-Sut Ralson wrote:

As of today, May 31, 2025, the Gun Violence Archive reports 5,963
gun-related deaths in the United States for the year 2025. This
includes homicides, unintentional shootings, and DGW (death by gunshot
wound) in general. These are all based on findings by (at least) a
medical examiner who is a sworn "finder of fact". IOW, the finding
holds unless compelling contradictory evidence is introduced and
documented.

As of today, May 31, 2025, there have been zero documented defensive
gun uses in the United States for the year 2025. You might notice
that I avoid the acronym "DGU", popularized by Dr Kleck's '90s surveys
where the researcher defines a "DGU" as an answer to an anonymous
telephone survey... if it's your survey, you may define it any way you
wish. To be a "defensive gun use", the incident must be tested by the scientific method resulting in a finding by a "finder of fact", such
as a judge, medical examiner... a police report that entered a
specific finding stating that it was, in fact, an act of self defense
would work if the finding were explicit.

News media reports don't count for either.

Given the massive number of DGW in the US, one can apply the "space
alien argument" that goes: "If there are 100K UFO sightings, only
*one* has to be a real spaceship full of extraterrestrial space aliens
for them to exist... and there's likely one valid defensive gun use,
but we can't put a probability on it.

You falsify the documents to get the results you want.

Good guy with gun stops downtown shooter, cold!

see the TV newsbroadcast https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/armed-civilian-kills-teen-suspect-downtown-seattle-shooting/281-5f9b926f-7561-4e12-8cee-2280bb6c7ee6

Armed civilian kills teen suspect after downtown Seattle shooting
Police said the teen shot two people before he encountered a 57-year-old
man licensed to carry a firearm, who then shot the teen.

Next up in 5
KING 5 News at Noon

Author: Bridget Chavez
Published: 5:57 PM PDT May 29, 2025
Updated: 8:06 PM PDT May 29, 2025
Facebook
SEATTLE — A legally armed civilian shot and killed a 16-year-old boy Wednesday night after the teen allegedly opened fire on two people in
downtown Seattle, according to police.

The shooting happened just after 10 p.m. near First Avenue and Union
Street. Police said the teen shot two people before he encountered a 57-year-old man licensed to carry a firearm, who then shot the teen.

“One individual produced a weapon, fired on the two individuals and then began to flee the scene,” said Seattle Police Chief Shon Barnes. “When
he did, he encountered a private citizen that was licensed to carry and
that private citizen fired his weapon, striking the suspect.”

The teen, along with both shooting victims, was taken to Harborview
Medical Center, where the 16-year-old later died. One of the victims has
since been released from the hospital, while the other remains in
satisfactory condition, police said.

Barnes said the teen’s weapon was recovered at the scene. The
57-year-old man who opened fire is cooperating with the investigation
and is not currently considered a suspect.

Detectives are still working to determine what led up to the shooting
and whether the victims and the suspect knew each other.

“We need people to have cooler heads to prevail,” Barnes said. “People who are carrying weapons — just know that our officers are out here, we
are doing proactive patrols.”

KING 5 law enforcement analyst John Urquhart says the case is likely
being viewed through the lens of Washington’s self-defense laws.

“Washington is what they call a ‘no duty to retreat’ state,” Urquhart said. “Other states call it ‘stand your ground.’ The idea is exactly the same — when a person is confronted by a bad guy, he is not required to
back away or run away.”

Urquhart added that the timing and proximity of the shooting will be key
in determining whether the use of deadly force was legally justified.

“Did he intervene when the suspect was running away and a block away —
or when the suspect was still on scene and clearly armed?” he said. “The fact that the citizen was not arrested, was not booked, is not being
described as a suspect, leads me to believe Seattle police see this as a
legal and justified use of force. But again, they don’t make the final decision — the prosecutor’s office does.”


Seattle police are asking anyone with information about the incident to
call their Violent Crimes Tip Line at 206-233-5000.

Close Ad

7 people shot at Lakewood park, police say
Discover
Feuding groups led to shooting at Lakewood park, police say
Discover
Health News

Charges dropped against teen who stabbed, killed mother's boyfriend in
Tacoma
Discover
A violent night in western Washington
Discover

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

You falsify the documents to get the results you want.

Not guilty! This is the only document we have at the moment; I have
not offered any interpretation whatsoever, save to say that, if all
there is to it is a media story, that isn't enough to cause me to
reject the null hypothesis.

https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/armed-civilian-kills-teen-suspect-downtown-seattle-shooting/281-5f9b926f-7561-4e12-8cee-2280bb6c7ee6

That "null hypothesis" stuff is just a high falutin' way of saying
"burden of proof". In a criminal case, the null hypothesis is not
guilty; the jury must reject this.

Union & First Ave... as *down* as "downtown" Seattle gets. It could
just as easily ben a dope deal gone south. Likely we'll never know.
If I cared, I'd order a copy of the police report, but usually, it
will contain little beyond what they release. If that explicitly says
that it was "self defense", then I'll buy it... otherwise, it's just
another shoot-out on the street.

There isn't enough evidence to call it self defense.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.politics.guns

On 5/31/2025 12:03 PM, a425couple wrote:

On 5/31/25 09:07, Hut-Sut Ralson wrote:

As of today, May 31, 2025, the Gun Violence Archive reports 5,963
gun-related deaths in the United States for the year 2025. This
includes homicides, unintentional shootings, and DGW (death by gunshot
wound) in general.  These are all based on findings by (at least) a
medical examiner who is a sworn "finder of fact".  IOW, the finding
holds unless compelling contradictory evidence is introduced and
documented.

As of today, May 31, 2025, there have been zero documented defensive
gun uses in the United States for the year 2025.  You might notice
that I avoid the acronym "DGU", popularized by Dr Kleck's '90s surveys
where the researcher defines a "DGU" as an answer to an anonymous
telephone survey... if it's your survey, you may define it any way you
wish.  To be a "defensive gun use", the incident must be tested by the
scientific method resulting in a finding by a "finder of fact", such
as a judge, medical examiner... a police report that entered a
specific finding stating that it was, in fact, an act of self defense
would work if the finding were explicit.

News media reports don't count for either.

Given the massive number of DGW in the US, one can apply the "space
alien argument" that goes: "If there are 100K UFO sightings, only
*one* has to be a real spaceship full of extraterrestrial space aliens
for them to exist... and there's likely one valid defensive gun use,
but we can't put a probability on it.

You falsify the documents to get the results you want.

Good guy with gun stops downtown shooter, cold!

see the TV newsbroadcast https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/armed-civilian-kills-teen-suspect-downtown-seattle-shooting/281-5f9b926f-7561-4e12-8cee-2280bb6c7ee6

Armed civilian kills teen suspect after downtown Seattle shooting
Police said the teen shot two people before he encountered a 57-year-old
man licensed to carry a firearm, who then shot the teen.

Next up in 5
KING 5 News at Noon

Author: Bridget Chavez
Published: 5:57 PM PDT May 29, 2025
Updated: 8:06 PM PDT May 29, 2025
Facebook
SEATTLE — A legally armed civilian shot and killed a 16-year-old boy Wednesday night after the teen allegedly opened fire on two people in downtown Seattle, according to police.

The shooting happened just after 10 p.m. near First Avenue and Union
Street. Police said the teen shot two people before he encountered a 57-year-old man licensed to carry a firearm, who then shot the teen.

“One individual produced a weapon, fired on the two individuals and then began to flee the scene,” said Seattle Police Chief Shon Barnes. “When
he did, he encountered a private citizen that was licensed to carry and
that private citizen fired his weapon, striking the suspect.”

The teen, along with both shooting victims, was taken to Harborview
Medical Center, where the 16-year-old later died. One of the victims has since been released from the hospital, while the other remains in satisfactory condition, police said.

Barnes said the teen’s weapon was recovered at the scene. The
57-year-old man who opened fire is cooperating with the investigation
and is not currently considered a suspect.

Detectives are still working to determine what led up to the shooting
and whether the victims and the suspect knew each other.

“We need people to have cooler heads to prevail,” Barnes said. “People who are carrying weapons — just know that our officers are out here, we
are doing proactive patrols.”

KING 5 law enforcement analyst John Urquhart says the case is likely
being viewed through the lens of Washington’s self-defense laws.

“Washington is what they call a ‘no duty to retreat’ state,” Urquhart said. “Other states call it ‘stand your ground.’ The idea is exactly the
same — when a person is confronted by a bad guy, he is not required to
back away or run away.”

Urquhart added that the timing and proximity of the shooting will be key
in determining whether the use of deadly force was legally justified.

“Did he intervene when the suspect was running away and a block away —
or when the suspect was still on scene and clearly armed?” he said. “The fact that the citizen was not arrested, was not booked, is not being described as a suspect, leads me to believe Seattle police see this as a legal and justified use of force. But again, they don’t make the final decision — the prosecutor’s office does.”

Seattle police are asking anyone with information about the incident to
call their Violent Crimes Tip Line at 206-233-5000.

Close Ad

7 people shot at Lakewood park, police say
Discover
Feuding groups led to shooting at Lakewood park, police say
Discover
Health News

Charges dropped against teen who stabbed, killed mother's boyfriend in
Tacoma
Discover
A violent night in western Washington
Discover

I always thought this was a good one.

Armed civilian neutralized Indiana mall shooter in just 15 seconds,
authorities say

""The time lapse between the moment that Jonathan Sapirman exited the
restroom and began shooting, and when he was shot by the civilian
(Elisjsha Dicken) was only fifteen seconds, not two minutes," Greenwood
Police Chief James Ison said in a statement. "The surveillance video
shows Sapirman exit the restroom at 5:56:48pm. He was neutralized by
Dicken at 5:57:03 pm."

A preliminary autopsy report released Tuesday said Sapirman was shot
eight times and died from his wounds."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/indiana-mall-shooting-elisjsha-dicken-neutralized-gunman-15-seconds/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.politics.guns

On 5/31/2025 12:03 PM, a425couple wrote:

On 5/31/25 09:07, Hut-Sut Ralson wrote:

As of today, May 31, 2025, the Gun Violence Archive reports 5,963
gun-related deaths in the United States for the year 2025. This
includes homicides, unintentional shootings, and DGW (death by gunshot
wound) in general.� These are all based on findings by (at least) a
medical examiner who is a sworn "finder of fact".� IOW, the finding
holds unless compelling contradictory evidence is introduced and
documented.

As of today, May 31, 2025, there have been zero documented defensive
gun uses in the United States for the year 2025.� You might notice
that I avoid the acronym "DGU", popularized by Dr Kleck's '90s surveys
where the researcher defines a "DGU" as an answer to an anonymous
telephone survey... if it's your survey, you may define it any way you
wish.� To be a "defensive gun use", the incident must be tested by the
scientific method resulting in a finding by a "finder of fact", such
as a judge, medical examiner... a police report that entered a
specific finding stating that it was, in fact, an act of self defense
would work if the finding were explicit.

News media reports don't count for either.

Given the massive number of DGW in the US, one can apply the "space
alien argument" that goes: "If there are 100K UFO sightings, only
*one* has to be a real spaceship full of extraterrestrial space aliens
for them to exist... and there's likely one valid defensive gun use,
but we can't put a probability on it.

You falsify the documents to get the results you want.

Good guy with gun stops downtown shooter, cold!

see the TV newsbroadcast
https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/armed-civilian-kills-teen-suspect-downtown-seattle-shooting/281-5f9b926f-7561-4e12-8cee-2280bb6c7ee6

Armed civilian kills teen suspect after downtown Seattle shooting
Police said the teen shot two people before he encountered a 57-year-old
man licensed to carry a firearm, who then shot the teen.

Next up in 5
KING 5 News at Noon

Author: Bridget Chavez
Published: 5:57 PM PDT May 29, 2025
Updated: 8:06 PM PDT May 29, 2025
Facebook
SEATTLE � A legally armed civilian shot and killed a 16-year-old boy
Wednesday night after the teen allegedly opened fire on two people in
downtown Seattle, according to police.

The shooting happened just after 10 p.m. near First Avenue and Union
Street. Police said the teen shot two people before he encountered a
57-year-old man licensed to carry a firearm, who then shot the teen.

�One individual produced a weapon, fired on the two individuals and then
began to flee the scene,� said Seattle Police Chief Shon Barnes. �When
he did, he encountered a private citizen that was licensed to carry and
that private citizen fired his weapon, striking the suspect.�

The teen, along with both shooting victims, was taken to Harborview
Medical Center, where the 16-year-old later died. One of the victims has
since been released from the hospital, while the other remains in
satisfactory condition, police said.

Barnes said the teen�s weapon was recovered at the scene. The
57-year-old man who opened fire is cooperating with the investigation
and is not currently considered a suspect.

Detectives are still working to determine what led up to the shooting
and whether the victims and the suspect knew each other.

�We need people to have cooler heads to prevail,� Barnes said. �People
who are carrying weapons � just know that our officers are out here, we
are doing proactive patrols.�

KING 5 law enforcement analyst John Urquhart says the case is likely
being viewed through the lens of Washington�s self-defense laws.

�Washington is what they call a �no duty to retreat� state,� Urquhart
said. �Other states call it �stand your ground.� The idea is exactly the
same � when a person is confronted by a bad guy, he is not required to
back away or run away.�

Urquhart added that the timing and proximity of the shooting will be key
in determining whether the use of deadly force was legally justified.

�Did he intervene when the suspect was running away and a block away �
or when the suspect was still on scene and clearly armed?� he said. �The
fact that the citizen was not arrested, was not booked, is not being
described as a suspect, leads me to believe Seattle police see this as a
legal and justified use of force. But again, they don�t make the final
decision � the prosecutor�s office does.�


Seattle police are asking anyone with information about the incident to
call their Violent Crimes Tip Line at 206-233-5000.

Close Ad

7 people shot at Lakewood park, police say
Discover
Feuding groups led to shooting at Lakewood park, police say
Discover
Health News

Charges dropped against teen who stabbed, killed mother's boyfriend in
Tacoma
Discover
A violent night in western Washington
Discover

I always thought this was a good one.

Armed civilian neutralized Indiana mall shooter in just 15 seconds, >authorities say

""The time lapse between the moment that Jonathan Sapirman exited the >restroom and began shooting, and when he was shot by the civilian
(Elisjsha Dicken) was only fifteen seconds, not two minutes," Greenwood >Police Chief James Ison said in a statement. "The surveillance video
shows Sapirman exit the restroom at 5:56:48pm. He was neutralized by
Dicken at 5:57:03 pm."

A preliminary autopsy report released Tuesday said Sapirman was shot
eight times and died from his wounds."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/indiana-mall-shooting-elisjsha-dicken-neutralized-gunman-15-seconds/

That's fine; however, those are all media reports. All we know is
what the reporter was told... I'm not knocking it, but we do *not*
know what happened. When the investigation is final, however, a
completely different story will frequently emerge... or an incomplete
one, since one of the actors is many timed dead.

A news story gives you the version they had at that time. And, even
in media stories, the writer will *never* state unequivocally that the
act was self defense.

If you look at some of the other accounts, you find the altercation
between the teens happened at First & Pike, then the shooter ran, then
the "armed citizen" shot him at First & Union, a block south. An
alternate explanation might be a dope rip-off, then the enforced took
over... that actually makes more sense than an armed citizen defending
his own life. He won't be charged, but it you don't have an act of
self defense yet.

Jones

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hut-Sut Ralson wrote:

As of today, May 31, 2025, the Gun Violence Archive reports 5,963
gun-related deaths in the United States for the year 2025. This
includes homicides, unintentional shootings, and DGW (death by gunshot
wound) in general. These are all based on findings by (at least) a
medical examiner who is a sworn "finder of fact". IOW, the finding
holds unless compelling contradictory evidence is introduced and
documented.

As of today, May 31, 2025, there have been zero documented defensive
gun uses in the United States for the year 2025. You might notice
that I avoid the acronym "DGU", popularized by Dr Kleck's '90s surveys
where the researcher defines a "DGU" as an answer to an anonymous
telephone survey... if it's your survey, you may define it any way you
wish. To be a "defensive gun use", the incident must be tested by the scientific method

That's a clear misapplication of the scientific method.

Get shot.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.sodomites.barack-obama, talk.politics.misc

On 31 May 2025, Hut-Sut Ralson <x@y.com> posted some news:2a9m3khpv48hg31mpej28jqhpkvgu23bl1@4ax.com:

As of today, May 31, 2025,

Go fuck yourself.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hut-Sut Ralson wrote:

[...]

As of today, May 31, 2025, there have been zero documented defensive
gun uses in the United States for the year 2025. You might notice
that I avoid the acronym "DGU", popularized by Dr Kleck's '90s surveys
where the researcher defines a "DGU" as an answer to an anonymous
telephone survey... if it's your survey, you may define it any way you
wish. To be a "defensive gun use", the incident must be tested by the
scientific method

That's a clear misapplication of the scientific method.

Well, I did, in fact, use the term: "scientific method"; however, I
did not detail any specific application thereof.

Making it as simple as I can: when one employs the scientific method,
one assumes the "null hypothesis". (Think: "innocent until proven
guilty"... the null hypothesis is that the accused person is innocent
and this must be rejected by evidence.) Then one defines the standard
of proof by which the null hypothesis may be rejected: "beyond
reasonable doubt", "a preponderance of evidence", "P >= 0.5", et. al.

A person may claim "self defense" and, based on this, a criminal
proceeding might fail to reject the null hypothesis of his or her
innocence, in which case the individual remains innocent; however, the
person's innocence was the default. It was *guilt* that was tested,
not innocence. Also, please note that the matter of "self defense" is
entirely another matter and never tested per the scientific method.

You really should do a little bit of reading before you jump in and
demonstrate your ignorance.

Jones

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.sodomites.barack-obama, talk.politics.misc

Go fuck yourself.

I see that the quality of TPG's postings, as demonstrated by the
intelligence of the writing, is as great as it has always been. Keep
up the good work, men. Our freedom depends on you!

Jones

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.sodomites.barack-obama, talk.politics.misc

On 01 Jun 2025, !Jones <x@y.com> posted some news:tuno3kdjm35k163k6c5fb6rv67apaqaiio@4ax.com:

Go fuck yourself.

I see that the quality of TPG's postings, as demonstrated by the
intelligence of the writing, is as great as it has always been. Keep
up the good work, men. Our freedom depends on you!

Dude, you're trying to have a conversation with a Trump hating troll. He
just used a different sock so somebody would talk to him.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.sodomites.barack-obama, talk.politics.misc

On 01 Jun 2025, !Jones <x@y.com> posted some >news:tuno3kdjm35k163k6c5fb6rv67apaqaiio@4ax.com:

Go fuck yourself.

I see that the quality of TPG's postings, as demonstrated by the
intelligence of the writing, is as great as it has always been. Keep
up the good work, men. Our freedom depends on you!

Dude, you're trying to have a conversation with a Trump hating troll. He >just used a different sock so somebody would talk to him.

What I don't understand is how this qualifies as a "conversation".

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/31/25 12:58, !Jones wrote:

You falsify the documents to get the results you want.

Not guilty! This is the only document we have at the moment; I have
not offered any interpretation whatsoever, save to say that, if all
there is to it is a media story, that isn't enough to cause me to
reject the null hypothesis.

https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/armed-civilian-kills-teen-suspect-downtown-seattle-shooting/281-5f9b926f-7561-4e12-8cee-2280bb6c7ee6

That "null hypothesis" stuff is just a high falutin' way of saying
"burden of proof". In a criminal case, the null hypothesis is not
guilty; the jury must reject this.

Union & First Ave... as *down* as "downtown" Seattle gets. It could
just as easily ben a dope deal gone south. Likely we'll never know.
If I cared, I'd order a copy of the police report, but usually, it
will contain little beyond what they release. If that explicitly says
that it was "self defense", then I'll buy it... otherwise, it's just
another shoot-out on the street.

There isn't enough evidence to call it self defense.

Because I do not care to copy and paste all the sources that
have shown this to be a pretty righteous shoot.

Five young people walking along showed by multiple surveillance
camaras, follewed then by 4 on scooters, wearing hoods and masks,
one of these talks to first group, then multiple shots,
shooter separates, from a side, previously uninvolved
appears one lone individual who shoots the suspect.

Multiple witnesses interviewed.

Jones will choose to believe nothing he disagrees with.

Tis OK, I already spent my career in law-enforcement,
and idiots nowdays can do what they wish.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

!Jones wrote:

Hut-Sut Ralson wrote:

[...]

As of today, May 31, 2025, there have been zero documented defensive
gun uses in the United States for the year 2025. You might notice
that I avoid the acronym "DGU", popularized by Dr Kleck's '90s surveys
where the researcher defines a "DGU" as an answer to an anonymous
telephone survey... if it's your survey, you may define it any way you
wish. To be a "defensive gun use", the incident must be tested by the
scientific method

That's a clear misapplication of the scientific method.

Well, I did, in fact, use the term: "scientific method"; however, I
did not detail any specific application thereof.

So you're just blabbering. Got it.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: talk.politics.misc

On 6/1/25 4:56 PM, !Jones wrote:

On 01 Jun 2025, !Jones <x@y.com> posted some
news:tuno3kdjm35k163k6c5fb6rv67apaqaiio@4ax.com:

Go fuck yourself.

I see that the quality of TPG's postings, as demonstrated by the
intelligence of the writing, is as great as it has always been. Keep
up the good work, men. Our freedom depends on you!

Dude, you're trying to have a conversation with a Trump hating troll. He
just used a different sock so somebody would talk to him.

What I don't understand is how this qualifies as a "conversation".

Dudes - it's NEVER a "conversation" these days ... just
WokieComs *SCREAMING* insults and pretending they MEAN
something.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Hut-Sut Ralson" <x@y.com> wrote in message news:2a9m3khpv48hg31mpej28jqhpkvgu23bl1@4ax.com...

As of today, May 31, 2025, the Gun Violence Archive reports 5,963
gun-related deaths in the United States for the year 2025. This
includes homicides, unintentional shootings, and DGW (death by gunshot
wound) in general. These are all based on findings by (at least) a
medical examiner who is a sworn "finder of fact". IOW, the finding
holds unless compelling contradictory evidence is introduced and
documented.

As of today, May 31, 2025, there have been zero documented defensive
gun uses in the United States for the year 2025. You might notice
that I avoid the acronym "DGU", popularized by Dr Kleck's '90s surveys
where the researcher defines a "DGU" as an answer to an anonymous
telephone survey... if it's your survey, you may define it any way you
wish. To be a "defensive gun use", the incident must be tested by the scientific method resulting in a finding by a "finder of fact", such
as a judge, medical examiner... a police report that entered a
specific finding stating that it was, in fact, an act of self defense
would work if the finding were explicit.

Well, then let me assist you, and wonder about the accuracy of your
research.

1. Attempted Robbery Foiled at Houston Home of Twitch Streamer
Date: March 2, 2025

Location: Houston, Texas

Summary: A man broke into the home of Twitch streamer Amouranth in an
attempted robbery. The intruder was shot by a person inside the residence. Authorities later confirmed the incident was a targeted home invasion.

Source: KHOU News - Streamer Amouranth's Houston home targeted in robbery, intruder shot

2. Lake City Resident Shoots Intruder During Home Invasion
Date: March 4, 2025

Location: Lake City, Florida

Summary: A man was shot and killed during an attempted home invasion in Lake City. According to authorities, the homeowner used a firearm to defend
against the intruder, who was pronounced dead at the scene.

Source: First Coast News - Man killed in Lake City home invasion

3. Inland Empire Man Shoots Two Burglars, Killing One
Date: March 4, 2025

Location: Bloomington, California

Summary: A Bloomington homeowner opened fire on two suspects who were
allegedly breaking into his home. One suspect was killed and the other was injured. Authorities stated the resident was cooperating with investigators.

Source: KTLA - Inland Empire man opens fire on burglars, killing 1 and
wounding another

4. Employee Shoots Armed Robber at O'Reilly Auto Parts
Date: March 6, 2025

Location: Terre Haute, Indiana

Summary: Police responded to reports of shots fired at an O'Reilly Auto
Parts store. An armed robbery suspect was shot by an employee during the incident. The suspect fled the scene and later sought medical attention.

Source: MyWabashValley - THPD investigating shots fired at O'Reilly's Auto Parts

5. Jefferson City Woman Claims Self-Defense in Weekend Shooting
Date: March 7, 2025

Location: Jefferson City, Missouri

Summary: A woman told police she acted in self-defense when she shot a man during a confrontation in her home. Authorities confirmed that she remained
at the scene and cooperated with the investigation.

Source: KOMU - Jefferson City woman claims self-defense in weekend shooting

6. Chesterfield Woman Shoots Ex-Boyfriend in Domestic Incident
Date: March 10, 2025

Location: Chesterfield County, Virginia

Summary: A woman shot her ex-boyfriend during a domestic altercation at her residence on Heybridge Court. Police say the man attempted to force entry,
and the woman used a firearm in self-defense.

Source: WRIC - Chesterfield woman shoots ex-boyfriend during domestic
incident

7. Security Guard Shoots Burglary Suspect at Los Angeles Dispensary
Date: March 10, 2025

Location: Los Angeles, California

Summary: A burglary suspect attempting to crash into a cannabis dispensary
with a vehicle was shot by an on-site security guard. The incident took
place in South Los Angeles around 4:30 a.m., and police say the suspect was taken to the hospital.

Source: FOX 11 Los Angeles - Burglary suspect crashes into LA weed
dispensary, gets shot by security

8. Parking Dispute in Reading Ends with Stabbing and Shooting
Date: March 12, 2025

Location: Reading, Pennsylvania

Summary: A heated parking dispute escalated when one man was stabbed and another was shot. Police say the man who fired the gun did so in
self-defense after being attacked. Both individuals were hospitalized.

Source: WFMZ - Reading police: Parking dispute ends in stabbing, shooting

9. Glendale Resident Shoots and Kills Intruder During Overnight Incident
Date: March 14, 2025

Location: Glendale, Arizona

Summary: Police say a homeowner shot and killed a person attempting to enter their residence during the night. The incident occurred in a Glendale neighborhood and is being investigated as a potential case of self-defense.

Source: AZFamily - Overnight shooting in Glendale neighborhood leaves 1 dead

10. Business Owner Shoots Possible Burglary Suspect Outside Houston Mechanic Shop
Date: March 14, 2025

Location: Houston, Texas

Summary: A business owner in North Houston shot a man who was allegedly
trying to break into vehicles outside a mechanic shop on 18th Street. Police say the suspect may have been attempting to burglarize the property when he
was confronted and shot.

Source: ABC13 - Possible burglary suspect shot by business owners outside Houston mechanic shop

11. Bay Area Resident Kills Home Intruder in Martinez
Date: March 15, 2025

Location: Martinez, California

Summary: A resident fatally shot an intruder who broke into his home and attacked him. The two men were acquainted, but the motive behind the
break-in remains unclear. Police are investigating the incident as a
potential case of self-defense.

Source: SFGate - Bay Area man kills home intruder in suburban neighborhood

12. Jacksonville Man Shoots Suspect Who Followed Him Home from Nightclub
Date: March 16, 2025

Location: Jacksonville, Florida

Summary: A man who had been at a local nightclub noticed he was being
followed. When he arrived home, the suspect reportedly approached
aggressively. The resident retrieved a firearm and shot the individual in
what police say may have been a justified shooting.

Source: Action News Jax - JSO: Man shoots suspect who followed him home from nightclub

13. Houston Resident Shoots Armed Intruder During Attempted Robbery
Date: March 17, 2025

Location: Houston, Texas

Summary: According to Houston police, a resident shot a man who attempted to rob him at gunpoint in the 6900 block of Foxwaithe Lane. The armed suspect
was later pronounced dead at the scene. The case was referred to a grand
jury.

Source: Houston Police Department - News Release: NR031825-3

14. Armed Citizen Stops Stabbing at McDonald's in Nashua
Date: March 18, 2025

Location: Nashua, New Hampshire

Summary: Police say a man with a knife stabbed another man inside a McDonald's. A bystander, who was legally armed, intervened by drawing his firearm and ordering the attacker to stop. The suspect was arrested, and police credit
the armed citizen with potentially saving a life.

Source: WMUR - Armed citizen stops stabbing at Nashua McDonald's

15. Man Shoots Attempted Robber in Midtown Memphis
Date: March 18, 2025

Location: Memphis, Tennessee

Summary: A man was injured and another detained after a shooting in Midtown. Police reported that the man who fired the gun did so during an attempted robbery. The shooter remained on scene and cooperated with authorities.

Source: FOX13 Memphis - Man injured, another detained after shooting in Midtown, police say

16. Suspect Critically Injured After Alleged Carjacking and Shooting in
North Memphis
Date: March 19, 2025

Location: Memphis, Tennessee

Summary: A carjacking suspect was critically injured after a crash and
shooting incident in North Memphis. Police say the suspect may have been
shot by the vehicle's owner while attempting to flee the scene.

Source: Local Memphis - Suspect critical following carjacking, crash,
shooting in North Memphis

17. Las Vegas Resident Fatally Shoots Intruder in Gated Community
Date: March 25, 2025

Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Summary: A homeowner in a gated community near Cheyenne Avenue and Durango Drive fatally shot an intruder who had broken into the residence. The Las
Vegas Metropolitan Police Department reported that the intruder was armed
and posed an immediate threat to the occupants. The incident is under investigation, but initial findings suggest the homeowner acted in self-defense.

Source: KSNV - Deadly shooting under investigation near Cheyenne, Durango

18. Shooting Death of Armed 14-Year-Old Investigated as Justifiable Homicide Date: March 21, 2025

Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico

Summary: Albuquerque police say the fatal shooting of a 14-year-old boy is being investigated as a justifiable homicide. The teen was reportedly armed
and had threatened a resident, prompting the resident to shoot him in what appears to be a self-defense case.

Source: KRQE - APD: Shooting death of 14-year-old investigated as
justifiable homicide

19. Homeowner Shoots, Critically Injures Teen Who Broke Into Spanish Fort
Home
Date: March 22, 2025

Location: Spanish Fort, Alabama

Summary: A teenager was critically injured after breaking into a home in Spanish Fort. The homeowner opened fire on the suspect during the incident. Police said the shooting appeared to be a case of self-defense and the investigation is ongoing.

Source: FOX10 - Homeowner shoots, critically injures teen after teen breaks into home in Spanish Fort

20. Store Clerk Shoots Aggressive Customer During Argument in Othello
Date: March 22, 2025

Location: Othello, Washington

Summary: A man was arrested after being shot in the leg during an argument
with a store clerk. Police say the suspect became aggressive and threatened
the employee, who then used a firearm in self-defense. The suspect was later taken into custody.

Source: KXLY - Othello man arrested after being shot in the leg during
argument with store clerk

21. Armed Hilton Head Woman Stops Man Trying to Enter Home
Date: March 23, 2025

Location: Hilton Head Island, South Carolina

Summary: A woman armed with a handgun confronted a man trying to break into
her home. She held him at gunpoint until deputies arrived. Authorities
praised the homeowner's quick thinking and legal firearm use in preventing a potential crime.

Source: Island Packet - Armed Hilton Head woman stops man trying to enter
home, deputies say

22. Police Say Shooting of Teen in Albuquerque May Be Justifiable
Date: March 23, 2025

Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico

Summary: Police are investigating the fatal shooting of a teen as a possible case of justifiable homicide. The teen was allegedly involved in a confrontation that led a resident to open fire. Authorities are still determining whether charges will be filed.

Source: KOAT - Deadly shooting of teen could be justifiable, police say

23. Teen Shot While Allegedly Trying to Steal Wheels in North Hills
Date: March 24, 2025

Location: North Hills, California

Summary: Police say a teenage boy was shot while attempting to steal wheels from a vehicle in a residential area. The car owner confronted the teen and opened fire. The incident is under investigation to determine whether the shooting was justified.

Source: Daily News - Boy shot in North Hills while trying to steal wheels, police say

24. Man Shoots and Kills Armed Intruder at Hardeeville Home
Date: March 24, 2025

Location: Hardeeville, South Carolina

Summary: A homeowner shot and killed an armed man who allegedly broke into
his home. Police confirmed that the intruder was armed and that the
homeowner acted in self-defense. The case is under review, but no charges
have been filed.

Source: WJCL - Man shoots, kills armed intruder at Hardeeville home

25. Tulsa Man Fatally Shoots Attacker Wielding Baseball Bat
Date: March 24, 2025

Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma

Summary: While working on his car in his driveway, Charles Berry was
attacked by 36-year-old Dane Swets, who struck him in the face with a
baseball bat. Berry retrieved his firearm and shot Swets once. Swets walked away before collapsing nearby. Berry called 911 and attempted to render aid. Tulsa Police reviewed surveillance footage and released Berry pending
further investigation.

Source: ConcealedCarry.com - Tulsa Man Fatally Shoots Attacker Wielding Baseball Bat

26. Concealed Carrier Shoots Suspect During Car Burglary on Chicago's South Side
Date: March 25, 2025

Location: Chicago, Illinois

Summary: A concealed carry permit holder shot a man who was allegedly burglarizing his car in the Far South Side's West Pullman neighborhood.
Police said the permit holder confronted the suspect before firing. The
suspect was hospitalized, and no charges were filed against the shooter.

Source: CWB Chicago - Concealed carry holder shoots man during car burglary
on Far South Side

27. Manitou Springs Resident Shoots Attacker After Being Stabbed
Date: March 26, 2025

Location: Manitou Springs, Colorado

Summary: A man was stabbed multiple times by an assailant in his own
driveway. Despite serious injuries, the resident was able to retrieve a
firearm and shoot his attacker. Police confirmed that the resident acted in self-defense and was hospitalized in stable condition.

Source: ConcealedCarry.com - Manitou Springs Resident Defends Himself After Stabbing, Shoots Attacker in Driveway

28. Suspect Arrested After Fatal Shooting in Alleged Point Breeze Robbery
Date: March 27, 2025

Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Summary: Police say a man was fatally shot during an attempted robbery in
the Point Breeze neighborhood. A suspect was later arrested and charged. Authorities stated that the shooting may have been committed in self-defense
by the intended robbery victim.

Source: NBC Philadelphia - Suspect Arrested After Fatal Shooting in Alleged Point Breeze Robbery

29. Homeowner Shoots Suspected Burglar in Houston's University Place
Date: March 28, 2025

Location: Houston, Texas

Summary: A homeowner confronted a man who had broken into his garage and was sitting inside his pregnant wife's car. The homeowner, unable to see the suspect's hands in the dark, fired two shots, striking the suspect in the
arm and leg. The suspect was hospitalized and is expected to face burglary charges.

Source: Click2Houston - Homeowner shoots suspected burglar in University
Place

30. Franklin County Man Shot After Entering Another's Property
Date: March 31, 2025

Location: Franklin County, Virginia

Summary: Deputies responded to a shooting in the 100 block of Blue Spruce Drive. A man was shot after entering another homeowner's property, leading
to a confrontation. The injured individual was airlifted to a hospital. Authorities are investigating the circumstances to determine if the shooting was justified.


https://www.concealedcarry.com/dgu/defensive-gun-use-roundup-march-2025/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Because I do not care to copy and paste all the sources that
have shown this to be a pretty righteous shoot.

Five young people walking along showed by multiple surveillance
camaras, follewed then by 4 on scooters, wearing hoods and masks,
one of these talks to first group, then multiple shots,
shooter separates, from a side, previously uninvolved
appears one lone individual who shoots the suspect.

Multiple witnesses interviewed.

I'm not saying it ain't so. I'm not asserting that it was a criminal
act. To "prove" self defense (where the level of proof has never been articulated; I would accept: "a preponderance of the evidence

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Because I do not care to copy and paste all the sources that
have shown this to be a pretty righteous shoot.

Five young people walking along showed by multiple surveillance
camaras, follewed then by 4 on scooters, wearing hoods and masks,
one of these talks to first group, then multiple shots,
shooter separates, from a side, previously uninvolved
appears one lone individual who shoots the suspect.

Multiple witnesses interviewed.

I'm not saying it ain't so. I'm not asserting that it was a criminal
act. To "prove" self defense (where the level of proof has never been articulated; I would accept: "a preponderance of the evidence).
<fat-finger send>, the default assumption has to be the "it ain't so",
and this must be rejected by the evidence.

What you're doing is reading a media account (& they're all based on essentially the same news releases), and makeing a call that it was an
act of self defense. It could just as easily be explained as a dope
rip-off. If the media report is all we have, I cannot reject that
possibility.

That's what I mean when I say: "the scientific method". Call it:
"burden of proof", if you please.

Jones

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

mindless...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: talk.politics.misc

Dudes - it's NEVER a "conversation" these days ... just
WokieComs *SCREAMING* insults and pretending they MEAN
something.

By: "WokieComs", I assume you mean the other guys? I haven't noticed
either side having a momopoly on mindless shrieking.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

!Jones wrote:

mindless...

I see you posted your signature block, but the rest of your post didn't
go through.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/31/2025 1:58 PM, !Jones wrote:

You falsify the documents to get the results you want.

Not guilty! This is the only document we have at the moment; I have
not offered any interpretation whatsoever, save to say that, if all
there is to it is a media story, that isn't enough to cause me to
reject the null hypothesis.

https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/armed-civilian-kills-teen-suspect-downtown-seattle-shooting/281-5f9b926f-7561-4e12-8cee-2280bb6c7ee6

That "null hypothesis" stuff is just a high falutin' way of saying
"burden of proof". In a criminal case, the null hypothesis is not
guilty; the jury must reject this.

Union & First Ave... as *down* as "downtown" Seattle gets. It could
just as easily ben a dope deal gone south. Likely we'll never know.
If I cared, I'd order a copy of the police report, but usually, it
will contain little beyond what they release. If that explicitly says
that it was "self defense", then I'll buy it... otherwise, it's just
another shoot-out on the street.

There isn't enough evidence to call it self defense.

Personal testimony is explicitly accepted under the Federal
and every state Rules of Evidence.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/31/2025 1:58 PM, !Jones wrote:

You falsify the documents to get the results you want.

Not guilty! This is the only document we have at the moment; I have
not offered any interpretation whatsoever, save to say that, if all
there is to it is a media story, that isn't enough to cause me to
reject the null hypothesis.

https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/armed-civilian-kills-teen-suspect-downtown-seattle-shooting/281-5f9b926f-7561-4e12-8cee-2280bb6c7ee6

That "null hypothesis" stuff is just a high falutin' way of saying
"burden of proof". In a criminal case, the null hypothesis is not
guilty; the jury must reject this.

Union & First Ave... as *down* as "downtown" Seattle gets. It could
just as easily ben a dope deal gone south. Likely we'll never know.
If I cared, I'd order a copy of the police report, but usually, it
will contain little beyond what they release. If that explicitly says
that it was "self defense", then I'll buy it... otherwise, it's just
another shoot-out on the street.

There isn't enough evidence to call it self defense.

Personal testimony is explicitly accepted under the Federal
and every state Rules of Evidence.

Thank you, sir! I cannot agree more. Furthermore, I agree that it
should be thus.

In general, virtually all modern venues have four broad tests:
allowable evidence must be relevant, material, authentic and not
privileged. An article published in a news medium would fail the
authenticity test, unless the question were: what did the Seattle Post Intelligencer say? In that case, it would fail the material test
because what the newspaper says doesn't matter.

Point being: an article in the newspaper to the effect that, "Just
Wondering reported blah, [blah]," simply doesn't count as personal
testimony. If I told a news reporter: "I saw Just Wondering commit an abomination," would you consider the story published in the newspaper
to be "evidence"?

But, thank you for sharing your thoughts.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)