Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Am 14.02.23 um 10:46 schrieb Commander Kinsey:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?Yes. Done quite often.
A direct uplink of sensor data to another computer/server which can be
part of the internet.
--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Am 14.02.23 um 10:46 schrieb Commander Kinsey:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes. Done quite often.
A direct uplink of sensor data to another computer/server which can be
part of the internet.
On 14/02/2023 09:46, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
This might help you, Commander:-
https://edu.gcfglobal.org/en/basic-computer-skills/downloading-and-uploading/1/
Please let me know.
On 14/2/2023 5:46 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
How could the data be stored without a disk then?
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Am 14.02.23 um 10:46 schrieb Commander Kinsey:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Define "upload to the internet".
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
Is it ever done?
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 14:45:20 -0000, FromTheRafters <FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
Is it ever done?
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 10:19:17 -0000, David Brooks <DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 09:46, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
This might help you, Commander:-
https://edu.gcfglobal.org/en/basic-computer-skills/downloading-and-uploading/1/
Please let me know.
That is about 10 times less detailed than required.
I wanted to know if a program working on something can upload that data
to the internet without writing it to disk first, then sending that file.
If so, is it common practice?
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a disk somewhere on the Internet.
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 11:14:27 -0000, Mr. Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> wrote:
On 14/2/2023 5:46 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
How could the data be stored without a disk then?
I meant writing it to the disk on the sending end. Say my computer had
done some calculations, then sent your computer a file of the results.
Can it be done without writing to my disk first?
On 14/02/2023 15:07, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 11:14:27 -0000, Mr. Man-wai Chang
<toylet.toylet@gmail.com> wrote:
On 14/2/2023 5:46 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
How could the data be stored without a disk then?
I meant writing it to the disk on the sending end. Say my computer had
done some calculations, then sent your computer a file of the results.
Can it be done without writing to my disk first?
Where would the information be stored on your computer BEFORE you
elected to send it?
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a disk somewhere on the Internet.
If he was asking whether a program can upload data to the Internet
without writing to a local disk on the computer the program is running
on, yes, of course it can. But what he meant isn't clear. If that's
what he meant, that's what he should have said.
on 2/14/2023, Commander Kinsey supposed :
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 14:45:20 -0000, FromTheRafters <FTR@nomail.afraid.org> >> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
Is it ever done?
Most live CDs I have seen have RAMDisk or virtualdisk which is actually
just fast storage pretending to be slow storage.
My short answer above was due to this having even existed.
https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2021/07/15/the-code-red-worm-20-years-on-what-have-we-learned/
It sent and executed 'code as data' to be mishandled by the vulnerable system's data execution vulnerability. So, it is a program uploading
data to another computer which *might* have the needed vulnerability to execute it and send it onward while not writing to disk.
On 14/2/2023 5:46 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
How could the data be stored without a disk then?
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 15:33:14 -0000, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
on 2/14/2023, Commander Kinsey supposed :
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 14:45:20 -0000, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org>
wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
Is it ever done?
Most live CDs I have seen have RAMDisk or virtualdisk which is actually
just fast storage pretending to be slow storage.
My short answer above was due to this having even existed.
https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2021/07/15/the-code-red-worm-20-years-on-what-have-we-learned/
It sent and executed 'code as data' to be mishandled by the vulnerable
system's data execution vulnerability. So, it is a program uploading
data to another computer which *might* have the needed vulnerability to
execute it and send it onward while not writing to disk.
Does that mean an AV wouldn't check it as it's not written to disk?
In article <kwOGL.621554$Tcw8.564215@fx10.iad>, David Brooks <DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
Where would the information be stored on your computer BEFORE you
elected to send it?
it doesn't need to be stored anywhere. data can be generated in real
time and sent to another computer, without writing to any disk, on
either end.
In article <kwOGL.621554$Tcw8.564215@fx10.iad>, David Brooks <DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
Where would the information be stored on your computer BEFORE you
elected to send it?
it doesn't need to be stored anywhere. data can be generated in real
time and sent to another computer, without writing to any disk, on
either end.
On 14/02/2023 16:45, nospam wrote:
In article <kwOGL.621554$Tcw8.564215@fx10.iad>, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
Where would the information be stored on your computer BEFORE you
elected to send it?
it doesn't need to be stored anywhere. data can be generated in real
time and sent to another computer, without writing to any disk, on
either end.
You talk in riddles!
In order to send something to somewhere else, it must BE somewhere to
start with.
From WHERE can it be sent?
Where would the information be stored on your computer BEFORE you
elected to send it?
it doesn't need to be stored anywhere. data can be generated in real
time and sent to another computer, without writing to any disk, on
either end.
You talk in riddles!
In order to send something to somewhere else, it must BE somewhere to
start with.
From WHERE can it be sent?
Where would the information be stored on your computer BEFORE you
elected to send it?
it doesn't need to be stored anywhere. data can be generated in real
time and sent to another computer, without writing to any disk, on
either end.
Is it not at least stored in RAM?
Where would the information be stored on your computer BEFORE you
elected to send it?
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 10:19:17 -0000, David Brooks <DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 09:46, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
This might help you, Commander:-
https://edu.gcfglobal.org/en/basic-computer-skills/downloading-and-uploading/1/
Please let me know.
That is about 10 times less detailed than required.
I wanted to know if a program working on something can upload that data
to the internet without writing it to disk first, then sending that
file. If so, is it common practice?
In article <9lbnuh528a5gkn8k575e4ik31gtb6noqge@4ax.com>, Ken Blake ><Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a disk
somewhere on the Internet.
not necessarily. it's possible for one computer to send data to another >without involving a disk at all, on either end.
In article <N1PGL.877441$vBI8.729946@fx15.iad>, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
Where would the information be stored on your computer BEFORE you
elected to send it?
it doesn't need to be stored anywhere. data can be generated in real
time and sent to another computer, without writing to any disk, on
either end.
Is it not at least stored in RAM?
normally yes, and will quickly be overwritten moments later. it's also possible for it not to be in ram at all, although that would be
unusual.
Is it not at least stored in RAM?
normally yes, and will quickly be overwritten moments later. it's also possible for it not to be in ram at all, although that would be
unusual.
If not in RAM where is it being sent from?
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a disk
somewhere on the Internet.
not necessarily. it's possible for one computer to send data to another >without involving a disk at all, on either end.
Yes, but that's not "uploading to the Internet."
To repeat myself,
"uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a disk somewhere on the Internet."
On Feb 14, 2023 at 10:09:27 AM MST, "nospam" wrote <140220231209272946%nospam@nospam.invalid>:
In article <N1PGL.877441$vBI8.729946@fx15.iad>, Snit
<brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
Where would the information be stored on your computer BEFORE you
elected to send it?
it doesn't need to be stored anywhere. data can be generated in real
time and sent to another computer, without writing to any disk, on
either end.
Is it not at least stored in RAM?
normally yes, and will quickly be overwritten moments later. it's also
possible for it not to be in ram at all, although that would be
unusual.
If not in RAM where is it being sent from?
In article <iWPGL.854973$iU59.194202@fx14.iad>, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
Is it not at least stored in RAM?
normally yes, and will quickly be overwritten moments later. it's also
possible for it not to be in ram at all, although that would be
unusual.
If not in RAM where is it being sent from?
cpu registers.
If not in RAM where is it being sent from?
On Feb 14, 2023 at 9:49:06 AM MST, "David Brooks" wrote <7YOGL.621561$Tcw8.280638@fx10.iad>:
On 14/02/2023 16:45, nospam wrote:
In article <kwOGL.621554$Tcw8.564215@fx10.iad>, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
Where would the information be stored on your computer BEFORE you
elected to send it?
it doesn't need to be stored anywhere. data can be generated in real
time and sent to another computer, without writing to any disk, on
either end.
You talk in riddles!
In order to send something to somewhere else, it must BE somewhere to
start with.
From WHERE can it be sent?
Memory.
Snit submitted this idea :
On Feb 14, 2023 at 9:49:06 AM MST, "David Brooks" wrote
<7YOGL.621561$Tcw8.280638@fx10.iad>:
On 14/02/2023 16:45, nospam wrote:
In article <kwOGL.621554$Tcw8.564215@fx10.iad>, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
Where would the information be stored on your computer BEFORE you
elected to send it?
it doesn't need to be stored anywhere. data can be generated in real
time and sent to another computer, without writing to any disk, on
either end.
You talk in riddles!
In order to send something to somewhere else, it must BE somewhere to
start with.
From WHERE can it be sent?
Memory.
I'm reasonably sure someone here could write a program to post the
contents of their keyboard buffer to USENET without writing any of the
data to disk. I'm pretty sure a normal NNTP client writes to disk
frequently, so homegrown is probably the way to go.
I'm not sure how much space there is in the buffer, plenty of room
scattered around elsewhere though.
On 2/14/23 11:55, Snit wrote:
[snip]
If not in RAM where is it being sent from?
I suppose it would be possible to upload from ROM (UEFI firmware?).
On Feb 14, 2023 at 9:45:01 AM MST, "nospam" wrote <140220231145014978%nospam@nospam.invalid>:
In article <kwOGL.621554$Tcw8.564215@fx10.iad>, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
Where would the information be stored on your computer BEFORE you
elected to send it?
it doesn't need to be stored anywhere. data can be generated in real
time and sent to another computer, without writing to any disk, on
either end.
Is it not at least stored in RAM?
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 15:33:14 -0000, FromTheRafters <FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
on 2/14/2023, Commander Kinsey supposed :
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 14:45:20 -0000, FromTheRafters <FTR@nomail.afraid.org> >>> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
Is it ever done?
Most live CDs I have seen have RAMDisk or virtualdisk which is actually
just fast storage pretending to be slow storage.
My short answer above was due to this having even existed.
https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2021/07/15/the-code-red-worm-20-years-on-what-have-we-learned/
It sent and executed 'code as data' to be mishandled by the vulnerable
system's data execution vulnerability. So, it is a program uploading
data to another computer which *might* have the needed vulnerability to
execute it and send it onward while not writing to disk.
Does that mean an AV wouldn't check it as it's not written to disk?
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a disk somewhere on the Internet.
If he was asking whether a program can upload data to the Internet
without writing to a local disk on the computer the program is running
on, yes, of course it can. But what he meant isn't clear. If that's
what he meant, that's what he should have said.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard drive.
Does that NOT apply to viwing images from a far distant webcam (as
intimated by 'nospam')?
Snit submitted this idea :
On Feb 14, 2023 at 9:49:06 AM MST, "David Brooks" wrote
<7YOGL.621561$Tcw8.280638@fx10.iad>:
On 14/02/2023 16:45, nospam wrote:
In article <kwOGL.621554$Tcw8.564215@fx10.iad>, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
Where would the information be stored on your computer BEFORE you
elected to send it?
it doesn't need to be stored anywhere. data can be generated in real
time and sent to another computer, without writing to any disk, on
either end.
You talk in riddles!
In order to send something to somewhere else, it must BE somewhere to
start with.
 From WHERE can it be sent?
Memory.
I'm reasonably sure someone here could write a program to post the
contents of their keyboard buffer to USENET without writing any of the
data to disk. I'm pretty sure a normal NNTP client writes to disk
frequently, so homegrown is probably the way to go.
Was Dustin Cook lying when he claimed that he could find child porn on a computer?
it *could* be on the hard drive, but it doesn't have to be.
I don't look at child porn so it doesn't really matter.
Does that NOT apply to viwing images from a far distant webcam (as
intimated by 'nospam')?
a streaming webcam would put the video in memory.
How can I view something stored "in memory"?
In article <vHSGL.909957$9sn9.819376@fx17.iad>, David Brooks <DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
there is no engraving.
the image is be stored in memory, for as long as it's viewed.
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard drive.
your imagination is wrong.
it *could* be on the hard drive, but it doesn't have to be.
Does that NOT apply to viwing images from a far distant webcam (as
intimated by 'nospam')?
a streaming webcam would put the video in memory.
On 14/02/2023 17:55, Snit wrote:
On Feb 14, 2023 at 10:09:25 AM MST, "nospam" wrote
<140220231209252852%nospam@nospam.invalid>:
In article <7YOGL.621561$Tcw8.280638@fx10.iad>, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
Where would the information be stored on your computer BEFORE you
elected to send it?
it doesn't need to be stored anywhere. data can be generated in real >>>>> time and sent to another computer, without writing to any disk, on
either end.
You talk in riddles!
there is no riddle.
In order to send something to somewhere else, it must BE somewhere to
start with.
yep
From WHERE can it be sent?
the sending computer.
You are being purposely vague... like a Sphinx. Playing games.
Indeed he is. :-(
HE thinks he's being clever but, as you are aware, he's
simply showing everyone how childish he is.
Snit explained :
On Feb 14, 2023 at 12:39:03 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
<tsgo0r$2k109$1@dont-email.me>:
Snit submitted this idea :
On Feb 14, 2023 at 9:49:06 AM MST, "David Brooks" wrote
<7YOGL.621561$Tcw8.280638@fx10.iad>:
On 14/02/2023 16:45, nospam wrote:
In article <kwOGL.621554$Tcw8.564215@fx10.iad>, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
Where would the information be stored on your computer BEFORE you >>>>>>> elected to send it?
it doesn't need to be stored anywhere. data can be generated in real >>>>>> time and sent to another computer, without writing to any disk, on >>>>>> either end.
You talk in riddles!
In order to send something to somewhere else, it must BE somewhere to >>>>> start with.
From WHERE can it be sent?
Memory.
I'm reasonably sure someone here could write a program to post the
contents of their keyboard buffer to USENET without writing any of the
data to disk. I'm pretty sure a normal NNTP client writes to disk
frequently, so homegrown is probably the way to go.
I'll get to working on it immediately.
AppleScript might not be up to the task. :)
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a disk >somewhere on the Internet.
On 2023-02-14 20:39, FromTheRafters wrote:
Snit submitted this idea :
On Feb 14, 2023 at 9:49:06 AM MST, "David Brooks" wrote
<7YOGL.621561$Tcw8.280638@fx10.iad>:
On 14/02/2023 16:45, nospam wrote:
In article <kwOGL.621554$Tcw8.564215@fx10.iad>, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
Where would the information be stored on your computer BEFORE you
elected to send it?
it doesn't need to be stored anywhere. data can be generated in real >>>>> time and sent to another computer, without writing to any disk, on
either end.
You talk in riddles!
In order to send something to somewhere else, it must BE somewhere to
start with.
From WHERE can it be sent?
Memory.
I'm reasonably sure someone here could write a program to post the contents >> of their keyboard buffer to USENET without writing any of the data to disk. >> I'm pretty sure a normal NNTP client writes to disk frequently, so
homegrown is probably the way to go.
A client such as Alpine does not cache nntp messages. I don't know this moment if it writes to file outgoing messages before sending them. AFAIK it just has the current message in memory.
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 08:58:01 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
wrote:
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a disk
somewhere on the Internet.
Now that you know that a remote disk* doesn't have to be involved at
all, I'm curious to understand why you thought otherwise?
*Just as a local disk doesn't have to be involved. Data can be generated
and moved to another system without being stored at either end.
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Ken Blake has brought this to us :
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a disk
somewhere on the Internet.
I see no reference to which kind of storage gets used by the receiving
system. I see no mention of "disk" in any of the definitions for "uploading >> to the internet" I have found.
Okay, if that definition is acceptable, which it is not to me, there is
still the code red worm which made its way around the internet by uploading >> itself to systems without using any slow storage at all.
If he was asking whether a program can upload data to the Internet
without writing to a local disk on the computer the program is running
on, yes, of course it can. But what he meant isn't clear. If that's
what he meant, that's what he should have said.
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard drive.
Does that NOT apply to viwing images from a far distant webcam (as intimated by 'nospam')?
David Brooks wrote :
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Ken Blake has brought this to us :
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a disk >>>> somewhere on the Internet.
I see no reference to which kind of storage gets used by the
receiving system. I see no mention of "disk" in any of the
definitions for "uploading to the internet" I have found.
Okay, if that definition is acceptable, which it is not to me, there
is still the code red worm which made its way around the internet by
uploading itself to systems without using any slow storage at all.
If he was asking whether a program can upload data to the Internet
without writing to a local disk on the computer the program is running >>>> on, yes, of course it can. But what he meant isn't clear. If that's
what he meant, that's what he should have said.
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was
talking about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard
drive.
Does that NOT apply to viwing images from a far distant webcam (as
intimated by 'nospam')?
My drone streams video. It has no disk. My android device receives the
signal and decrypts it and displays it on the screen, it has no disk
either. I have it save the video to my Google Drive which I strongly
suspect has a disk.
In article <7BVGL.1249574$GNG9.135251@fx18.iad>, David Brooks <DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
Was Dustin Cook lying when he claimed that he could find child porn on a
computer?
on your computer?
it *could* be on the hard drive, but it doesn't have to be.
I don't look at child porn so it doesn't really matter.
you brought it up.
apparently you're very concerned what someone might find.
Does that NOT apply to viwing images from a far distant webcam (as
intimated by 'nospam')?
a streaming webcam would put the video in memory.
How can I view something stored "in memory"?
by using an appropriate app, which in this case, would be a video
streaming app.
David Brooks wrote :
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Ken Blake has brought this to us :
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a disk >>>> somewhere on the Internet.
I see no reference to which kind of storage gets used by the
receiving system. I see no mention of "disk" in any of the
definitions for "uploading to the internet" I have found.
Okay, if that definition is acceptable, which it is not to me, there
is still the code red worm which made its way around the internet by
uploading itself to systems without using any slow storage at all.
If he was asking whether a program can upload data to the Internet
without writing to a local disk on the computer the program is running >>>> on, yes, of course it can. But what he meant isn't clear. If that's
what he meant, that's what he should have said.
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was
talking about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard
drive.
Does that NOT apply to viwing images from a far distant webcam (as
intimated by 'nospam')?
My drone streams video. It has no disk. My android device receives the
signal and decrypts it and displays it on the screen, it has no disk
either. I have it save the video to my Google Drive which I strongly
suspect has a disk.
On 2023-02-15 09:50, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks wrote :
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Ken Blake has brought this to us :
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk? >>>>>>Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a disk >>>>> somewhere on the Internet.
I see no reference to which kind of storage gets used by the
receiving system. I see no mention of "disk" in any of the
definitions for "uploading to the internet" I have found.
Okay, if that definition is acceptable, which it is not to me, there
is still the code red worm which made its way around the internet by
uploading itself to systems without using any slow storage at all.
If he was asking whether a program can upload data to the Internet
without writing to a local disk on the computer the program is running >>>>> on, yes, of course it can. But what he meant isn't clear. If that's
what he meant, that's what he should have said.
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was
talking about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard
drive.
Does that NOT apply to viwing images from a far distant webcam (as
intimated by 'nospam')?
My drone streams video. It has no disk. My android device receives the
signal and decrypts it and displays it on the screen, it has no disk
either. I have it save the video to my Google Drive which I strongly
suspect has a disk.
Flash memory is considered "disk" :-)
On 15/02/2023 11:36, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-02-15 09:50, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks wrote :
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Ken Blake has brought this to us :
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk? >>>>>>>Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a disk >>>>>> somewhere on the Internet.
I see no reference to which kind of storage gets used by the receiving >>>>> system. I see no mention of "disk" in any of the definitions for
"uploading to the internet" I have found.
Okay, if that definition is acceptable, which it is not to me, there is >>>>> still the code red worm which made its way around the internet by
uploading itself to systems without using any slow storage at all.
If he was asking whether a program can upload data to the Internet >>>>>> without writing to a local disk on the computer the program is running >>>>>> on, yes, of course it can. But what he meant isn't clear. If that's >>>>>> what he meant, that's what he should have said.
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was talking >>>>> about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard
drive.
Does that NOT apply to viwing images from a far distant webcam (as
intimated by 'nospam')?
My drone streams video. It has no disk. My android device receives the
signal and decrypts it and displays it on the screen, it has no disk
either. I have it save the video to my Google Drive which I strongly
suspect has a disk.
Flash memory is considered "disk" :-)
I agree with that, Carlos.
On 2023-02-15 09:50, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks wrote :
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Ken Blake has brought this to us :
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk? >>>>>>Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a disk >>>>> somewhere on the Internet.
I see no reference to which kind of storage gets used by the receiving >>>> system. I see no mention of "disk" in any of the definitions for
"uploading to the internet" I have found.
Okay, if that definition is acceptable, which it is not to me, there is >>>> still the code red worm which made its way around the internet by
uploading itself to systems without using any slow storage at all.
If he was asking whether a program can upload data to the Internet
without writing to a local disk on the computer the program is running >>>>> on, yes, of course it can. But what he meant isn't clear. If that's
what he meant, that's what he should have said.
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was talking >>>> about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard drive. >>>
Does that NOT apply to viwing images from a far distant webcam (as
intimated by 'nospam')?
My drone streams video. It has no disk. My android device receives the
signal and decrypts it and displays it on the screen, it has no disk
either. I have it save the video to my Google Drive which I strongly
suspect has a disk.
Flash memory is considered "disk" :-)
apparently you're very concerned what someone might find.
You are absolutely mistaken. All images on my iMac are held in Apple's iCloud. Apple scan them to look for illegal material - secretly, of course.
On 14/02/2023 21:17, nospam wrote:
In article <vHSGL.909957$9sn9.819376@fx17.iad>, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
there is no engraving.
the image is be stored in memory, for as long as it's viewed.
Was Dustin Cook lying when he claimed that he could find child porn on a computer?
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard drive. >>your imagination is wrong.
it *could* be on the hard drive, but it doesn't have to be.
I don't look at child porn so it doesn't really matter.
Does that NOT apply to viwing images from a far distant webcam (as
intimated by 'nospam')?
a streaming webcam would put the video in memory.
How can I view something stored "in memory"?
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 12:14:35 -0000, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
Am 14.02.23 um 10:46 schrieb Commander Kinsey:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Define "upload to the internet".
I thought that was clear. Send data to another computer on the internet.
David Brooks expressed precisely :
On 15/02/2023 11:36, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-02-15 09:50, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks wrote :
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Ken Blake has brought this to us :
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500, FromTheRafters<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk? >>>>>>>>Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a >>>>>>> disk somewhere on the Internet.
I see no reference to which kind of storage gets used by the
receiving system. I see no mention of "disk" in any of the
definitions for "uploading to the internet" I have found.
Okay, if that definition is acceptable, which it is not to me,
there is still the code red worm which made its way around the
internet by uploading itself to systems without using any slow
storage at all.
If he was asking whether a program can upload data to the Internet >>>>>>> without writing to a local disk on the computer the program is
running
on, yes, of course it can. But what he meant isn't clear. If that's >>>>>>> what he meant, that's what he should have said.
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was
talking about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./ >>>>> I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard
drive.
Does that NOT apply to viwing images from a far distant webcam (as
intimated by 'nospam')?
My drone streams video. It has no disk. My android device receives
the signal and decrypts it and displays it on the screen, it has no
disk either. I have it save the video to my Google Drive which I
strongly suspect has a disk.
Flash memory is considered "disk" :-)
I agree with that, Carlos.
You might have noticed that in my answers I tried to avoid this
language. I call RAM, L1, L2, and L3 caches fast storage and the rest
slow storage no matter the storage media. If my drone had a "disk", it wouldn't be able to fly.
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 08:58:01 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
wrote:
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a disk >>somewhere on the Internet.
Now that you know that a remote disk* doesn't have to be involved at
all, I'm curious to understand why you thought otherwise?
*Just as a local disk doesn't have to be involved.
Data can be generated
and moved to another system without being stored at either end.
Every time your computer boots it 'downloads' BIOS or UEFI firmware >decompression code from its storage in xxROM and executes it which
further allows it to 'download' from the boot harddrive or whatever.
Every time that you 'save' something, it is actually being uploaded to
your harddrive.
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 11:14:27 -0000, Mr. Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> wrote:
On 14/2/2023 5:46 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
How could the data be stored without a disk then?
I meant writing it to the disk on the sending end. Say my computer had done some calculations, then sent your computer a file of the results. Can it be done without writing to my disk first?
On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 04:10:22 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Every time your computer boots it 'downloads' BIOS or UEFI firmware
decompression code from its storage in xxROM and executes it which
further allows it to 'download' from the boot harddrive or whatever.
Every time that you 'save' something, it is actually being uploaded to
your harddrive.
Not as far as I'm concerned. Our definitions of "download" and
"upload" are clearly very different.
On 2023-02-15 13:57, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks expressed precisely :
On 15/02/2023 11:36, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-02-15 09:50, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks wrote :
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Ken Blake has brought this to us :
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500,
FromTheRafters<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk? >>>>>>>>>Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a >>>>>>>> disk somewhere on the Internet.
I see no reference to which kind of storage gets used by the receiving >>>>>>> system. I see no mention of "disk" in any of the definitions for >>>>>>> "uploading to the internet" I have found.
Okay, if that definition is acceptable, which it is not to me, there >>>>>>> is still the code red worm which made its way around the internet by >>>>>>> uploading itself to systems without using any slow storage at all. >>>>>>>
If he was asking whether a program can upload data to the Internet >>>>>>>> without writing to a local disk on the computer the program is >>>>>>>> running
on, yes, of course it can. But what he meant isn't clear. If that's >>>>>>>> what he meant, that's what he should have said.
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was
talking about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./ >>>>>> I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard >>>>>> drive.
Does that NOT apply to viwing images from a far distant webcam (as >>>>>> intimated by 'nospam')?
My drone streams video. It has no disk. My android device receives the >>>>> signal and decrypts it and displays it on the screen, it has no disk >>>>> either. I have it save the video to my Google Drive which I strongly >>>>> suspect has a disk.
Flash memory is considered "disk" :-)
I agree with that, Carlos.
You might have noticed that in my answers I tried to avoid this language. I >> call RAM, L1, L2, and L3 caches fast storage and the rest slow storage no
matter the storage media. If my drone had a "disk", it wouldn't be able to >> fly.
If by disk you mean "hard disk with rotating plates using magnetism methods for storage", then you are probably right.
But to the operating system, a flash card is a disk. If you are using Windows, it will get assigned a letter, like "D:".
On Feb 15, 2023 at 9:22:12 AM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote <tsj0rp$2u9in$1@dont-email.me>:
It happens that Carlos E. R. formulated :
On 2023-02-15 13:57, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks expressed precisely :
On 15/02/2023 11:36, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-02-15 09:50, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks wrote :
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Ken Blake has brought this to us :
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500,
FromTheRafters<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk? >>>>>>>>>>>Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a >>>>>>>>>> disk somewhere on the Internet.
I see no reference to which kind of storage gets used by the >>>>>>>>> receiving system. I see no mention of "disk" in any of the
definitions for "uploading to the internet" I have found.
Okay, if that definition is acceptable, which it is not to me, there >>>>>>>>> is still the code red worm which made its way around the internet by >>>>>>>>> uploading itself to systems without using any slow storage at all. >>>>>>>>>
If he was asking whether a program can upload data to the Internet >>>>>>>>>> without writing to a local disk on the computer the program is >>>>>>>>>> running
on, yes, of course it can. But what he meant isn't clear. If that's >>>>>>>>>> what he meant, that's what he should have said.
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was >>>>>>>>> talking about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./ >>>>>>>> I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard >>>>>>>> drive.
Does that NOT apply to viwing images from a far distant webcam (as >>>>>>>> intimated by 'nospam')?
My drone streams video. It has no disk. My android device receives the >>>>>>> signal and decrypts it and displays it on the screen, it has no disk >>>>>>> either. I have it save the video to my Google Drive which I strongly >>>>>>> suspect has a disk.
Flash memory is considered "disk" :-)
I agree with that, Carlos.
You might have noticed that in my answers I tried to avoid this language. >>>> I call RAM, L1, L2, and L3 caches fast storage and the rest slow storage >>>> no matter the storage media. If my drone had a "disk", it wouldn't be able >>>> to fly.
If by disk you mean "hard disk with rotating plates using magnetism methods >>> for storage", then you are probably right.
But to the operating system, a flash card is a disk. If you are using
Windows, it will get assigned a letter, like "D:".
My D drive is a disc, not a disk. Let's go a few rounds about that. :)
I think in the context of the question here, the idea of a disk is storage that is not erased on a reboot.
It happens that Carlos E. R. formulated :
On 2023-02-15 13:57, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks expressed precisely :
On 15/02/2023 11:36, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-02-15 09:50, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks wrote :
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Ken Blake has brought this to us :
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500,
FromTheRafters<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk? >>>>>>>>>>Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a >>>>>>>>> disk somewhere on the Internet.
I see no reference to which kind of storage gets used by the receiving >>>>>>>> system. I see no mention of "disk" in any of the definitions for >>>>>>>> "uploading to the internet" I have found.
Okay, if that definition is acceptable, which it is not to me, there >>>>>>>> is still the code red worm which made its way around the internet by >>>>>>>> uploading itself to systems without using any slow storage at all. >>>>>>>>
If he was asking whether a program can upload data to the Internet >>>>>>>>> without writing to a local disk on the computer the program is >>>>>>>>> running
on, yes, of course it can. But what he meant isn't clear. If that's >>>>>>>>> what he meant, that's what he should have said.
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was >>>>>>>> talking about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./ >>>>>>> I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard >>>>>>> drive.
Does that NOT apply to viwing images from a far distant webcam (as >>>>>>> intimated by 'nospam')?
My drone streams video. It has no disk. My android device receives the >>>>>> signal and decrypts it and displays it on the screen, it has no disk >>>>>> either. I have it save the video to my Google Drive which I strongly >>>>>> suspect has a disk.
Flash memory is considered "disk" :-)
I agree with that, Carlos.
You might have noticed that in my answers I tried to avoid this language. I >>> call RAM, L1, L2, and L3 caches fast storage and the rest slow storage no >>> matter the storage media. If my drone had a "disk", it wouldn't be able to >>> fly.
If by disk you mean "hard disk with rotating plates using magnetism methods >> for storage", then you are probably right.
But to the operating system, a flash card is a disk. If you are using
Windows, it will get assigned a letter, like "D:".
My D drive is a disc, not a disk. Let's go a few rounds about that. :)
In article <_f2HL.840737$iS99.234927@fx16.iad>, David Brooks <DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
apparently you're very concerned what someone might find.
You are absolutely mistaken. All images on my iMac are held in Apple's
iCloud. Apple scan them to look for illegal material - secretly, of course.
no they don't, and apple has stated that they have cancelled their
plans for csam scanning, making icloud a 'safe' place for such
material.
on 2/15/2023, Snit supposed :
On Feb 15, 2023 at 9:22:12 AM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
<tsj0rp$2u9in$1@dont-email.me>:
It happens that Carlos E. R. formulated :
On 2023-02-15 13:57, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks expressed precisely :
On 15/02/2023 11:36, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-02-15 09:50, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks wrote :
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Ken Blake has brought this to us :
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500,
FromTheRafters<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a >>>>>>>>>>> disk somewhere on the Internet.
I see no reference to which kind of storage gets used by the >>>>>>>>>> receiving system. I see no mention of "disk" in any of the >>>>>>>>>> definitions for "uploading to the internet" I have found.
Okay, if that definition is acceptable, which it is not to me, there >>>>>>>>>> is still the code red worm which made its way around the internet by >>>>>>>>>> uploading itself to systems without using any slow storage at all. >>>>>>>>>>
If he was asking whether a program can upload data to the Internet >>>>>>>>>>> without writing to a local disk on the computer the program is >>>>>>>>>>> running
on, yes, of course it can. But what he meant isn't clear. If that's >>>>>>>>>>> what he meant, that's what he should have said.
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was >>>>>>>>>> talking about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./ >>>>>>>>> I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard >>>>>>>>> drive.
Does that NOT apply to viwing images from a far distant webcam (as >>>>>>>>> intimated by 'nospam')?
My drone streams video. It has no disk. My android device receives the >>>>>>>> signal and decrypts it and displays it on the screen, it has no disk >>>>>>>> either. I have it save the video to my Google Drive which I strongly >>>>>>>> suspect has a disk.
Flash memory is considered "disk" :-)
I agree with that, Carlos.
You might have noticed that in my answers I tried to avoid this language. >>>>> I call RAM, L1, L2, and L3 caches fast storage and the rest slow storage >>>>> no matter the storage media. If my drone had a "disk", it wouldn't be able
to fly.
If by disk you mean "hard disk with rotating plates using magnetism methods
for storage", then you are probably right.
But to the operating system, a flash card is a disk. If you are using
Windows, it will get assigned a letter, like "D:".
My D drive is a disc, not a disk. Let's go a few rounds about that. :)
I think in the context of the question here, the idea of a disk is storage >> that is not erased on a reboot.
Fine, it doesn't matter as I answered with "slow storage" which covers
most types of non-volatile storage and their various abstractions.
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 22:15:43 -0600, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid>
wrote:
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 08:58:01 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
wrote:
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500, FromTheRafters >>><FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a disk >>>somewhere on the Internet.
Now that you know that a remote disk* doesn't have to be involved at
all, I'm curious to understand why you thought otherwise?
Because my definition of "upload" means writing to a disk at the place
being uploaded to.
*Just as a local disk doesn't have to be involved.
I agree with that.
Data can be generated
and moved to another system without being stored at either end.
Yes, but to me, it's not "uploading" unless it's to a disk at the >destination.
On Feb 15, 2023 at 9:44:33 AM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote <tsj25l$2udtt$1@dont-email.me>:
on 2/15/2023, Snit supposed :
On Feb 15, 2023 at 9:22:12 AM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
<tsj0rp$2u9in$1@dont-email.me>:
It happens that Carlos E. R. formulated :
On 2023-02-15 13:57, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks expressed precisely :
On 15/02/2023 11:36, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-02-15 09:50, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks wrote :
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Ken Blake has brought this to us :
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500,
FromTheRafters<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a >>>>>>>>>>>> disk somewhere on the Internet.
I see no reference to which kind of storage gets used by the >>>>>>>>>>> receiving system. I see no mention of "disk" in any of the >>>>>>>>>>> definitions for "uploading to the internet" I have found. >>>>>>>>>>>
Okay, if that definition is acceptable, which it is not to me, there
is still the code red worm which made its way around the internet by
uploading itself to systems without using any slow storage at all. >>>>>>>>>>>
If he was asking whether a program can upload data to the Internet >>>>>>>>>>>> without writing to a local disk on the computer the program is >>>>>>>>>>>> running
on, yes, of course it can. But what he meant isn't clear. If that's
what he meant, that's what he should have said.
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was >>>>>>>>>>> talking about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./ >>>>>>>>>> I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard >>>>>>>>>> drive.
Does that NOT apply to viwing images from a far distant webcam (as >>>>>>>>>> intimated by 'nospam')?
My drone streams video. It has no disk. My android device receives the
signal and decrypts it and displays it on the screen, it has no disk >>>>>>>>> either. I have it save the video to my Google Drive which I strongly >>>>>>>>> suspect has a disk.
Flash memory is considered "disk" :-)
I agree with that, Carlos.
You might have noticed that in my answers I tried to avoid this language.
I call RAM, L1, L2, and L3 caches fast storage and the rest slow storage >>>>>> no matter the storage media. If my drone had a "disk", it wouldn't be able
to fly.
If by disk you mean "hard disk with rotating plates using magnetism methods
for storage", then you are probably right.
But to the operating system, a flash card is a disk. If you are using >>>>> Windows, it will get assigned a letter, like "D:".
My D drive is a disc, not a disk. Let's go a few rounds about that. :)
I think in the context of the question here, the idea of a disk is storage >>> that is not erased on a reboot.
Fine, it doesn't matter as I answered with "slow storage" which covers
most types of non-volatile storage and their various abstractions.
Fair enough.
On 15.02.23 1:22, David Brooks wrote:
On 14/02/2023 21:17, nospam wrote:Install a ramdisk.
In article <vHSGL.909957$9sn9.819376@fx17.iad>, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
there is no engraving.
the image is be stored in memory, for as long as it's viewed.
Was Dustin Cook lying when he claimed that he could find child porn on a
computer?
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard
drive.
your imagination is wrong.
it *could* be on the hard drive, but it doesn't have to be.
I don't look at child porn so it doesn't really matter.
Does that NOT apply to viwing images from a far distant webcam (as
intimated by 'nospam')?
a streaming webcam would put the video in memory.
How can I view something stored "in memory"?
Put some data there.
Voila!! Readable data in memory!!!!
Ken Blake wrote :actually being uploaded to your harddrive.
On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 04:10:22 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Every time your computer boots it 'downloads' BIOS or UEFI firmware decompression code from its storage in xxROM and executes it which further allows it to 'download' from the boot harddrive or whatever. Every time that you 'save' something, it is
Not as far as I'm concerned. Our definitions of "download" and
"upload" are clearly very different.
Let's put this part you snipped back in context:
I said "Perhaps scientific method is involved."
Meaning the language changes as the technology evolves.
It *used to be* ( <-- emphasized this time to be clearer) that "upload" simply meant 'send to slow storage (disk or tape)' which was physically located upstairs in the building away from the actual computer room.
I am not suggesting that it is my view *today*, only that your apparent view of "the cloud" as a "disk" is not that far-fetched considering storage as a service is now so widely used.
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 22:15:43 -0600, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid>
wrote:
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 08:58:01 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
wrote:
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a disk
somewhere on the Internet.
Now that you know that a remote disk* doesn't have to be involved at
all, I'm curious to understand why you thought otherwise?
Because my definition of "upload" means writing to a disk at the place
being uploaded to.
*Just as a local disk doesn't have to be involved.
I agree with that.
Data can be generated
and moved to another system without being stored at either end.
Yes, but to me, it's not "uploading" unless it's to a disk at the destination.
How can I view something stored "in memory"?
On 15/02/2023 17:15, Snit wrote:
On Feb 15, 2023 at 9:44:33 AM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
<tsj25l$2udtt$1@dont-email.me>:
on 2/15/2023, Snit supposed :
On Feb 15, 2023 at 9:22:12 AM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
<tsj0rp$2u9in$1@dont-email.me>:
It happens that Carlos E. R. formulated :I think in the context of the question here, the idea of a disk is storage >>>> that is not erased on a reboot.
On 2023-02-15 13:57, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks expressed precisely :
On 15/02/2023 11:36, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-02-15 09:50, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks wrote :
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Ken Blake has brought this to us :
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500,
FromTheRafters<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a >>>>>>>>>>>>> disk somewhere on the Internet.
I see no reference to which kind of storage gets used by the >>>>>>>>>>>> receiving system. I see no mention of "disk" in any of the >>>>>>>>>>>> definitions for "uploading to the internet" I have found. >>>>>>>>>>>>
Okay, if that definition is acceptable, which it is not to me, there
is still the code red worm which made its way around the internet by
uploading itself to systems without using any slow storage at all. >>>>>>>>>>>>
If he was asking whether a program can upload data to the Internet
without writing to a local disk on the computer the program is >>>>>>>>>>>>> running
on, yes, of course it can. But what he meant isn't clear. If that's
what he meant, that's what he should have said.
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was >>>>>>>>>>>> talking about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard >>>>>>>>>>> drive.
Does that NOT apply to viwing images from a far distant webcam (as >>>>>>>>>>> intimated by 'nospam')?
My drone streams video. It has no disk. My android device receives the
signal and decrypts it and displays it on the screen, it has no disk >>>>>>>>>> either. I have it save the video to my Google Drive which I strongly >>>>>>>>>> suspect has a disk.
Flash memory is considered "disk" :-)
I agree with that, Carlos.
You might have noticed that in my answers I tried to avoid this language.
I call RAM, L1, L2, and L3 caches fast storage and the rest slow storage
no matter the storage media. If my drone had a "disk", it wouldn't be able
to fly.
If by disk you mean "hard disk with rotating plates using magnetism methods
for storage", then you are probably right.
But to the operating system, a flash card is a disk. If you are using >>>>>> Windows, it will get assigned a letter, like "D:".
My D drive is a disc, not a disk. Let's go a few rounds about that. :) >>>>
Fine, it doesn't matter as I answered with "slow storage" which covers
most types of non-volatile storage and their various abstractions.
Fair enough.
If I can search for and find an item on my iMac, I consider that it has
been stored therein.
On 2/15/2023 11:30 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:actually being uploaded to your harddrive.
Ken Blake wrote :
On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 04:10:22 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Every time your computer boots it 'downloads' BIOS or UEFI firmware decompression code from its storage in xxROM and executes it which further allows it to 'download' from the boot harddrive or whatever. Every time that you 'save' something, it is
Not as far as I'm concerned. Our definitions of "download" and
"upload" are clearly very different.
Let's put this part you snipped back in context:
I said "Perhaps scientific method is involved."
Meaning the language changes as the technology evolves.
It *used to be* ( <-- emphasized this time to be clearer) that "upload" simply meant 'send to slow storage (disk or tape)' which was physically located upstairs in the building away from the actual computer room.
I am not suggesting that it is my view *today*, only that your apparent view of "the cloud" as a "disk" is not that far-fetched considering storage as a service is now so widely used.
"Upload" and "Download" are remote terminologies.
Attempts to pervert the meaning, by later generations, won't work.
On 15/02/2023 17:15, Snit wrote:
On Feb 15, 2023 at 9:44:33 AM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
<tsj25l$2udtt$1@dont-email.me>:
on 2/15/2023, Snit supposed :
On Feb 15, 2023 at 9:22:12 AM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
<tsj0rp$2u9in$1@dont-email.me>:
It happens that Carlos E. R. formulated :I think in the context of the question here, the idea of a disk is
On 2023-02-15 13:57, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks expressed precisely :
On 15/02/2023 11:36, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-02-15 09:50, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks wrote :
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Ken Blake has brought this to us :
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500,
FromTheRafters<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disk?
Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to >>>>>>>>>>>>> a
disk somewhere on the Internet.
I see no reference to which kind of storage gets used by the >>>>>>>>>>>> receiving system. I see no mention of "disk" in any of the >>>>>>>>>>>> definitions for "uploading to the internet" I have found. >>>>>>>>>>>>
Okay, if that definition is acceptable, which it is not to me, >>>>>>>>>>>> there
is still the code red worm which made its way around the internet >>>>>>>>>>>> by
uploading itself to systems without using any slow storage at >>>>>>>>>>>> all.
If he was asking whether a program can upload data to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Internet
without writing to a local disk on the computer the program is >>>>>>>>>>>>> running
on, yes, of course it can. But what he meant isn't clear. If >>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
what he meant, that's what he should have said.
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was >>>>>>>>>>>> talking about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on >>>>>>>>>>> one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer
/somewhere./
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's >>>>>>>>>>> hard
drive.
Does that NOT apply to viwing images from a far distant webcam (as >>>>>>>>>>> intimated by 'nospam')?
My drone streams video. It has no disk. My android device receives >>>>>>>>>> the
signal and decrypts it and displays it on the screen, it has no >>>>>>>>>> disk
either. I have it save the video to my Google Drive which I >>>>>>>>>> strongly
suspect has a disk.
Flash memory is considered "disk" :-)
I agree with that, Carlos.
You might have noticed that in my answers I tried to avoid this
language.
I call RAM, L1, L2, and L3 caches fast storage and the rest slow >>>>>>> storage
no matter the storage media. If my drone had a "disk", it wouldn't be >>>>>>> able
to fly.
If by disk you mean "hard disk with rotating plates using magnetism >>>>>> methods
for storage", then you are probably right.
But to the operating system, a flash card is a disk. If you are using >>>>>> Windows, it will get assigned a letter, like "D:".
My D drive is a disc, not a disk. Let's go a few rounds about that. :) >>>>
storage
that is not erased on a reboot.
Fine, it doesn't matter as I answered with "slow storage" which covers
most types of non-volatile storage and their various abstractions.
Fair enough.
If I can search for and find an item on my iMac, I consider that it has been stored therein.
On 2023-02-15, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
On 2/15/2023 11:30 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:
Ken Blake wrote :
On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 04:10:22 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Every time your computer boots it 'downloads' BIOS or UEFI firmware
decompression code from its storage in xxROM and executes it which
further allows it to 'download' from the boot harddrive or whatever. >>>>> Every time that you 'save' something, it is actually being uploaded to >>>>> your harddrive.
Not as far as I'm concerned. Our definitions of "download" and
"upload" are clearly very different.
Let's put this part you snipped back in context:
I said "Perhaps scientific method is involved."
Meaning the language changes as the technology evolves.
It *used to be* ( <-- emphasized this time to be clearer) that "upload"
simply meant 'send to slow storage (disk or tape)' which was physically
located upstairs in the building away from the actual computer room.
I am not suggesting that it is my view *today*, only that your apparent
view of "the cloud" as a "disk" is not that far-fetched considering storage >>> as a service is now so widely used.
"Upload" and "Download" are remote terminologies.
Attempts to pervert the meaning, by later generations, won't work.
If 'men' can now have a baby... it can work ;)
on 2/15/2023, David Brooks supposed :
On 15/02/2023 17:15, Snit wrote:
On Feb 15, 2023 at 9:44:33 AM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
<tsj25l$2udtt$1@dont-email.me>:
on 2/15/2023, Snit supposed :
On Feb 15, 2023 at 9:22:12 AM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
<tsj0rp$2u9in$1@dont-email.me>:
It happens that Carlos E. R. formulated :
On 2023-02-15 13:57, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks expressed precisely :
On 15/02/2023 11:36, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-02-15 09:50, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks wrote :
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Ken Blake has brought this to us :
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500,
FromTheRafters<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> writing to disk?
Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* >>>>>>>>>>>>>> writing to a
disk somewhere on the Internet.
I see no reference to which kind of storage gets used by the >>>>>>>>>>>>> receiving system. I see no mention of "disk" in any of the >>>>>>>>>>>>> definitions for "uploading to the internet" I have found. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
Okay, if that definition is acceptable, which it is not to >>>>>>>>>>>>> me, there
is still the code red worm which made its way around the >>>>>>>>>>>>> internet by
uploading itself to systems without using any slow storage >>>>>>>>>>>>> at all.
If he was asking whether a program can upload data to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Internet
without writing to a local disk on the computer the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> program is
running
on, yes, of course it can. But what he meant isn't clear. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If that's
what he meant, that's what he should have said.
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he >>>>>>>>>>>>> was
talking about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an >>>>>>>>>>>> image on one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer >>>>>>>>>>>> /somewhere./
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on >>>>>>>>>>>> one's hard
drive.
Does that NOT apply to viwing images from a far distant >>>>>>>>>>>> webcam (as
intimated by 'nospam')?
My drone streams video. It has no disk. My android device >>>>>>>>>>> receives the
signal and decrypts it and displays it on the screen, it has >>>>>>>>>>> no disk
either. I have it save the video to my Google Drive which I >>>>>>>>>>> strongly
suspect has a disk.
Flash memory is considered "disk" :-)
I agree with that, Carlos.
You might have noticed that in my answers I tried to avoid this >>>>>>>> language.
I call RAM, L1, L2, and L3 caches fast storage and the rest slow >>>>>>>> storage
no matter the storage media. If my drone had a "disk", it
wouldn't be able
to fly.
If by disk you mean "hard disk with rotating plates using
magnetism methods
for storage", then you are probably right.
But to the operating system, a flash card is a disk. If you are
using
Windows, it will get assigned a letter, like "D:".
My D drive is a disc, not a disk. Let's go a few rounds about
that. :)
I think in the context of the question here, the idea of a disk is
storage
that is not erased on a reboot.
Fine, it doesn't matter as I answered with "slow storage" which covers >>>> most types of non-volatile storage and their various abstractions.
Fair enough.
If I can search for and find an item on my iMac, I consider that it
has been stored therein.
You can see BIOS settings and such, but that is also not a disk.
On Feb 15, 2023 at 10:48:08 AM MST, "David Brooks" wrote <sV8HL.543274$gGD7.442676@fx11.iad>:
On 15/02/2023 17:15, Snit wrote:
On Feb 15, 2023 at 9:44:33 AM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
<tsj25l$2udtt$1@dont-email.me>:
on 2/15/2023, Snit supposed :
On Feb 15, 2023 at 9:22:12 AM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
<tsj0rp$2u9in$1@dont-email.me>:
It happens that Carlos E. R. formulated :I think in the context of the question here, the idea of a disk is storage
On 2023-02-15 13:57, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks expressed precisely :
On 15/02/2023 11:36, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-02-15 09:50, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks wrote :
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Ken Blake has brought this to us :
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500,
FromTheRafters<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a
disk somewhere on the Internet.
I see no reference to which kind of storage gets used by the >>>>>>>>>>>>> receiving system. I see no mention of "disk" in any of the >>>>>>>>>>>>> definitions for "uploading to the internet" I have found. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
Okay, if that definition is acceptable, which it is not to me, there
is still the code red worm which made its way around the internet by
uploading itself to systems without using any slow storage at all.
If he was asking whether a program can upload data to the Internet
without writing to a local disk on the computer the program is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> running
on, yes, of course it can. But what he meant isn't clear. If that's
what he meant, that's what he should have said.
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was >>>>>>>>>>>>> talking about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard
drive.
Does that NOT apply to viwing images from a far distant webcam (as >>>>>>>>>>>> intimated by 'nospam')?
My drone streams video. It has no disk. My android device receives the
signal and decrypts it and displays it on the screen, it has no disk
either. I have it save the video to my Google Drive which I strongly
suspect has a disk.
Flash memory is considered "disk" :-)
I agree with that, Carlos.
You might have noticed that in my answers I tried to avoid this language.
I call RAM, L1, L2, and L3 caches fast storage and the rest slow storage
no matter the storage media. If my drone had a "disk", it wouldn't be able
to fly.
If by disk you mean "hard disk with rotating plates using magnetism methods
for storage", then you are probably right.
But to the operating system, a flash card is a disk. If you are using >>>>>>> Windows, it will get assigned a letter, like "D:".
My D drive is a disc, not a disk. Let's go a few rounds about that. :) >>>>>
that is not erased on a reboot.
Fine, it doesn't matter as I answered with "slow storage" which covers >>>> most types of non-volatile storage and their various abstractions.
Fair enough.
If I can search for and find an item on my iMac, I consider that it has
been stored therein.
Or on a drive it is connected to. OK.
In article <QS8HL.543272$gGD7.106088@fx11.iad>, David Brooks <DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
apparently you're very concerned what someone might find.
You are absolutely mistaken. All images on my iMac are held in Apple's >>>> iCloud. Apple scan them to look for illegal material - secretly, of course.
no they don't, and apple has stated that they have cancelled their
plans for csam scanning, making icloud a 'safe' place for such
material.
You actually /believe/ what Apple say?!!
apple is a public company and making false claims can get them into a
whole lot of trouble.
but if you think their public statement about csam is in any way false,
then provide evidence that supports your position.
apparently you're very concerned what someone might find.
You are absolutely mistaken. All images on my iMac are held in Apple's
iCloud. Apple scan them to look for illegal material - secretly, of course.
no they don't, and apple has stated that they have cancelled their
plans for csam scanning, making icloud a 'safe' place for such
material.
You actually /believe/ what Apple say?!!
apparently you're very concerned what someone might find.
You are absolutely mistaken. All images on my iMac are held in Apple's >>>> iCloud. Apple scan them to look for illegal material - secretly, of
course.
no they don't, and apple has stated that they have cancelled their
plans for csam scanning, making icloud a 'safe' place for such
material.
You actually /believe/ what Apple say?!!
apple is a public company and making false claims can get them into a
whole lot of trouble.
Who is going to catch them out?
but if you think their public statement about csam is in any way false, then provide evidence that supports your position.
Apple claims that Macs do not get infected by viruses.
Your video card generates an output signal from the contents of memory.
I have no idea how I could view that.
On 2/14/23 18:22, David Brooks wrote:
[snip]
How can I view something stored "in memory"?
Your video card generates an output signal from the contents of memory.
On 15/02/2023 17:54, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 2/14/23 18:22, David Brooks wrote:
[snip]
How can I view something stored "in memory"?
Your video card generates an output signal from the contents of memory.
I have no idea how I could view that.
On 15/02/2023 18:37, FromTheRafters wrote:
on 2/15/2023, David Brooks supposed :
On 15/02/2023 17:15, Snit wrote:
On Feb 15, 2023 at 9:44:33 AM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
<tsj25l$2udtt$1@dont-email.me>:
on 2/15/2023, Snit supposed :
On Feb 15, 2023 at 9:22:12 AM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
<tsj0rp$2u9in$1@dont-email.me>:
It happens that Carlos E. R. formulated :I think in the context of the question here, the idea of a disk is >>>>>> storage
On 2023-02-15 13:57, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks expressed precisely :
On 15/02/2023 11:36, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-02-15 09:50, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks wrote :
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Ken Blake has brought this to us :
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500,
FromTheRafters<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disk?
Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to a
disk somewhere on the Internet.
I see no reference to which kind of storage gets used by the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> receiving system. I see no mention of "disk" in any of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitions for "uploading to the internet" I have found. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Okay, if that definition is acceptable, which it is not to me, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> there
is still the code red worm which made its way around the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> internet by
uploading itself to systems without using any slow storage at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> all.
If he was asking whether a program can upload data to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Internet
without writing to a local disk on the computer the program is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> running
on, yes, of course it can. But what he meant isn't clear. If >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
what he meant, that's what he should have said.
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was >>>>>>>>>>>>>> talking about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on >>>>>>>>>>>>> one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer >>>>>>>>>>>>> /somewhere./
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's >>>>>>>>>>>>> hard
drive.
Does that NOT apply to viwing images from a far distant webcam >>>>>>>>>>>>> (as
intimated by 'nospam')?
My drone streams video. It has no disk. My android device >>>>>>>>>>>> receives the
signal and decrypts it and displays it on the screen, it has no >>>>>>>>>>>> disk
either. I have it save the video to my Google Drive which I >>>>>>>>>>>> strongly
suspect has a disk.
Flash memory is considered "disk" :-)
I agree with that, Carlos.
You might have noticed that in my answers I tried to avoid this >>>>>>>>> language.
I call RAM, L1, L2, and L3 caches fast storage and the rest slow >>>>>>>>> storage
no matter the storage media. If my drone had a "disk", it wouldn't >>>>>>>>> be able
to fly.
If by disk you mean "hard disk with rotating plates using magnetism >>>>>>>> methods
for storage", then you are probably right.
But to the operating system, a flash card is a disk. If you are using >>>>>>>> Windows, it will get assigned a letter, like "D:".
My D drive is a disc, not a disk. Let's go a few rounds about that. :) >>>>>>
that is not erased on a reboot.
Fine, it doesn't matter as I answered with "slow storage" which covers >>>>> most types of non-volatile storage and their various abstractions.
Fair enough.
If I can search for and find an item on my iMac, I consider that it has
been stored therein.
You can see BIOS settings and such, but that is also not a disk.
I've never seen BIOS settings on my iMac.
I've never seen BIOS settings on my iMac.
From: https://www.softwaretestinghelp.com/how-to-open-bios/ ====================================
Opening BIOS In Mac
Turn off your Macbook.
Power it on.
Now hold down command and option keys and letters O and F before
the system starts up.
In article <tsk076$31m8v$1@dont-email.me>, FromTheRafters <FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
I've never seen BIOS settings on my iMac.
From: https://www.softwaretestinghelp.com/how-to-open-bios/
====================================
Opening BIOS In Mac
macs do not have a bios.
68k macs did not have anything.
powerpc macs have open firmware.
intel macs have uefi.
apple silicon macs have an apple custom bootloader.
Turn off your Macbook.
Power it on.
Now hold down command and option keys and letters O and F before
the system starts up.
o & f is for open firmware.
On 2/15/2023 6:24 PM, David Brooks wrote:
On 15/02/2023 17:54, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 2/14/23 18:22, David Brooks wrote:
[snip]
How can I view something stored "in memory"?
Your video card generates an output signal from the contents of memory.
I have no idea how I could view that.
Main memory and video card memory are different things.
This is just an illustration and not a particularly good one.
This is the usage of a Hex Editor to examine Main Memory.
Notice how restricted you are on where you can look. There
are permissions involved, and to have completely open access
would be a security violation (malware could do it and so on).
  [Picture]
  https://i.postimg.cc/SRthgVDg/hex-editor-open-main-memory.gif
So while we are given some access, the access is far from complete.
*******
In the good ole days, you could go anywhere in there. It was
yeehaw ridem cowboy. You could read or write anywhere. You
could crash the computer by loading crap into it.
This is where I got to learn what the uninitialized DRAM memory
pattern looks like. It isn't random. It has rectangular sections
of 1's and 0's, but some of the bits would be flipped, so it
kinda looked like dilapidated billboards in there.
Program space had the binary you might expect (like in the picture).
Modern systems have virtual to physical memory mapping. That's
why, in the picture example, the address is so weird. Those 1's
in the upper bits of the address are not being used. Only a portion
of the address matters to mainboard hardware.
I don't think I've ever seen a utility for dumping video card
memory. There are definitely areas of video card memory that
are blocked on purpose. Like where they decode Hollywood movies
is blocked.
*******
Let's say David has applied a screen locker to his computer, but
the computer is still powered. We have David in handcuffs in the
hallway, and are using our search warrant to examine some of Davids computers.
We lay the police department PC, with its Firewire port, next to
Davids machine. A Firewire cable is then run between machines.
If your machine has a Firewire port, you are exposed.
Using Firewire RDMA mode, you can dump the entire main memory and
store it on the police computer. For a poorly written OS, the password
for Davids screen locker, may still be in main memory. Badabing, we're in!
There are at least two hardware interfaces that support this,
and a little more effort has been put into blocking the newer one.
The older one (Firewire) might still be exposed. But that's what
Remote Direct Memory Access (RDMA) is capable of.
There is a potential for limitations.
https://linux-kernel.vger.kernel.narkive.com/tc6j9bxt/patch-firewire-enable-remote-dma-above-4-gb
Lots of fun.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMA_attack
  "Examples of connections that may allow DMA in some exploitable form include
   FireWire, CardBus, ExpressCard, Thunderbolt, USB 4.0, PCI, PCI-X,
and PCI Express."
On PCI Express, there can be a functional block missing that prevents this. Not every set of wires you see, is potentially attack-able.
On some platforms, Thunderbolt is already plugged.
The status of the IOMMU may play a part in this too,
something else to research.
On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 08:51:33 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 22:15:43 -0600, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote: >>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 08:58:01 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote: >>>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500, FromTheRafters <FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a disk >>>> somewhere on the Internet.
Now that you know that a remote disk* doesn't have to be involved at
all, I'm curious to understand why you thought otherwise?
Because my definition of "upload" means writing to a disk at the place
being uploaded to.
And that was my question. I was wondering how you had arrived at that definition. Uploading and downloading involve moving data from one place
to another, but I don't understand how a disk/storage found its way into
the equation as a requirement. That shouldn't have happened.
*Just as a local disk doesn't have to be involved.
I agree with that.
Data can be generated
and moved to another system without being stored at either end.
Yes, but to me, it's not "uploading" unless it's to a disk at the
destination.
That's precisely the part I'm asking about. Why would a disk (or other storage) need to be involved? If you transfer data from a local system
to a remote system and it doesn't get stored somewhere, did you not just upload it?
On 2/15/2023 11:30 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:
Ken Blake wrote :
On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 04:10:22 -0500, FromTheRafters
<F...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Different words are used for activities in the
local sphere of influence ("only a microsecond away").
Processors have instructions called "Load" and "Store"
as examples.
"Upload" and "Download" is an old style client-server activity.
"Put" and "Get", "Push" or "Pull", are additional terms used
to clarify which end may have been the client, and which end
the server.
In article <tskv5k$37h9e$1@dont-email.me>, FromTheRafters <FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
From: https://www.softwaretestinghelp.com/how-to-open-bios/
====================================
Opening BIOS In Mac
macs do not have a bios.
I didn't write that,
i didn't say you did. the link is still there.
and to their credit they do state that it is
"technically" not the same. Still, many opt to call anything 'like
BIOS' BIOS.
many do, but they're wrong.
macs definitely don't have the typical bios settings interface.
Simply an example of the common misuse of terms.
yep.
On 15/02/2023 20:41, nospam wrote:
In article <QS8HL.543272$gGD7....@fx11.iad>, David Brooks <Dav...@a.new.address> wrote:
apparently you're very concerned what someone might find.
You are absolutely mistaken. All images on my iMac are held in Apple's >>>> iCloud. Apple scan them to look for illegal material - secretly, of course.
no they don't, and apple has stated that they have cancelled their
plans for csam scanning, making icloud a 'safe' place for such
material.
You actually /believe/ what Apple say?!!
apple is a public company and making false claims can get them into aWho is going to catch them out?
whole lot of trouble.
but if you think their public statement about csam is in any way false, then provide evidence that supports your position.Apple claims that Macs do not get infected by viruses.
Independent experts like Patrick Wardle disagree.
Do have a read at his wesite here and learn more about this subject:- https://www.securemac.com/news/objective-by-the-sea-5-0-highlights
--
Kind regards,
David
From: https://www.softwaretestinghelp.com/how-to-open-bios/
====================================
Opening BIOS In Mac
macs do not have a bios.
I didn't write that,
and to their credit they do state that it is
"technically" not the same. Still, many opt to call anything 'like
BIOS' BIOS.
Simply an example of the common misuse of terms.
I have never professed to being a technical whizz - but I DO like to use
my computers without fear of nasty consequences!
--
Kind regards,
David
On Feb 16, 2023 at 6:17:11 AM MST, "nospam" wrote <160220230817119238%nospam@nospam.invalid>:
In article <tskv5k$37h9e$1@dont-email.me>, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
From: https://www.softwaretestinghelp.com/how-to-open-bios/
====================================
Opening BIOS In Mac
macs do not have a bios.
I didn't write that,
i didn't say you did. the link is still there.
and to their credit they do state that it is
"technically" not the same. Still, many opt to call anything 'like
BIOS' BIOS.
many do, but they're wrong.
macs definitely don't have the typical bios settings interface.
To me that is the big difference. If they had a similar interface and someone used the wrong term I would not be too concerned. Maybe a simple correction but whatever. But Macs simply do not have the same settings.
In article <tskv5k$37h9e$1@dont-email.me>, FromTheRafters <FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
From: https://www.softwaretestinghelp.com/how-to-open-bios/
====================================
Opening BIOS In Mac
macs do not have a bios.
I didn't write that,
i didn't say you did. the link is still there.
and to their credit they do state that it is
"technically" not the same. Still, many opt to call anything 'like
BIOS' BIOS.
many do, but they're wrong.
macs definitely don't have the typical bios settings interface.
Simply an example of the common misuse of terms.
yep.
From: https://www.softwaretestinghelp.com/how-to-open-bios/
====================================
Opening BIOS In Mac
macs do not have a bios.
I didn't write that,
i didn't say you did. the link is still there.
I wasn't trying to be accusatory, just clear.
and to their credit they do state that it is
"technically" not the same. Still, many opt to call anything 'like
BIOS' BIOS.
many do, but they're wrong.
I agree.
macs definitely don't have the typical bios settings interface.
Simply an example of the common misuse of terms.
yep.
Snit wrote :
On Feb 16, 2023 at 6:17:11 AM MST, "nospam" wrote
<160220230817119238%nospam@nospam.invalid>:
In article <tskv5k$37h9e$1@dont-email.me>, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
From: https://www.softwaretestinghelp.com/how-to-open-bios/
====================================
Opening BIOS In Mac
macs do not have a bios.
I didn't write that,
i didn't say you did. the link is still there.
and to their credit they do state that it is
"technically" not the same. Still, many opt to call anything 'like
BIOS' BIOS.
many do, but they're wrong.
macs definitely don't have the typical bios settings interface.
To me that is the big difference. If they had a similar interface and someone
used the wrong term I would not be too concerned. Maybe a simple correction >> but whatever. But Macs simply do not have the same settings.
But the same purpose, bootstrapping. So maybe we should just call it
BIOS -- which is again different from CMOS Setup which provides an
interface to "volatile" storage which seems to be what you are talking
about being so 'different'.
I stressed volatile above because that CMOS circuit it often called non-volatile memory by 'the masses'.
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 11:14:27 -0000, Mr. Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> wrote:
On 14/2/2023 5:46 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
How could the data be stored without a disk then?
I meant writing it to the disk on the sending end. Say my computer had done some calculations, then sent your computer a file of the results. Can it be done without writing to my disk first?
On 2023-02-15 18:36, Char Jackson wrote:
Why would a disk (or other
storage) need to be involved? If you transfer data from a local system
to a remote system and it doesn't get stored somewhere, did you not just
upload it?
I don't usually call that "upload" but transfer, send, transmit... it is >volatile information. Upload to me has a context of permanency.
Why would a disk (or other
storage) need to be involved? If you transfer data from a local system
to a remote system and it doesn't get stored somewhere, did you not just >> upload it?
I don't usually call that "upload" but transfer, send, transmit... it is >volatile information. Upload to me has a context of permanency.
I guess I use the more technically correct definitions. If I initiate a
data transfer from 'here' to 'there', I've uploaded it. If I initiate a
data transfer from 'there' to 'here', I've downloaded it. Other terms
can apply equally, I suppose.
In either case, how the data is stored, or
even whether it gets stored and for how long, is an entirely different question, not directly related to the transfer itself.
I understand that language is fluid, of course, so there's room to accommodate everyone.
In article <8q5tuht9554eqnugg532n5vfnbf02bbb4t@4ax.com>, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote:
Why would a disk (or other
storage) need to be involved? If you transfer data from a local system >>>> to a remote system and it doesn't get stored somewhere, did you not just >>>> upload it?
I don't usually call that "upload" but transfer, send, transmit... it is >>> volatile information. Upload to me has a context of permanency.
I guess I use the more technically correct definitions. If I initiate a
data transfer from 'here' to 'there', I've uploaded it. If I initiate a
data transfer from 'there' to 'here', I've downloaded it. Other terms
can apply equally, I suppose.
that doesn't take into account the type of device.
for example, initiating a firmware update from a computer to a
peripheral is downloading.
in some cases, the transfer is bidirectional, such as initiating a sync operation, which will copy changes on both devices to each other.
In either case, how the data is stored, or
even whether it gets stored and for how long, is an entirely different
question, not directly related to the transfer itself.
true.
although the data transferred is usually stored somewhere, it doesn't
have to be.
I understand that language is fluid, of course, so there's room to
accommodate everyone.
language does evolve, and it becomes difficult to communicate when
people use different definitions (not just for this either).
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
On 14/02/2023 10:46, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
I don't think so.
If a program collects data it will be written onto a disk.
An upload will be happening from the data on this disk.
Fokke Nauta
On 14/02/2023 10:46, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
I don't think so.
If a program collects data it will be written onto a disk.
An upload will be happening from the data on this disk.
Fokke Nauta
On 2/17/2023 3:57 PM, Fokke Nauta wrote:
On 14/02/2023 10:46, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
I don't think so.
If a program collects data it will be written onto a disk.
An upload will be happening from the data on this disk.
Fokke Nauta
In an FTP session, you can invoke an interactive
shell command (with the bang symbol) and pipe the output into "|put".
I did this on a Ubuntu PowerPC LiveDVD session. I'm using
the spirit of that command, and changing the interactive
shell command to a non-disk supply of random numbers, just for you.
This is from memory, as I have no entry in my Notes file for this.
  ftp ftp.distant.com
  binary
  cd mathoddity
  !"dd if=/dev/random bs=1M count=1000" |put myrandomnumbers.bin
An upload does not have to be from a file. You can pipe
a generator into an upload.
  Paul
Fokke Nauta explained :
On 14/02/2023 10:46, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
I don't think so.
If a program collects data it will be written onto a disk.
An upload will be happening from the data on this disk.
Fokke Nauta
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/security/intelligence/fileless-threats?view=o365-worldwide
Fokke Nauta explained :
On 14/02/2023 10:46, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
I don't think so.
If a program collects data it will be written onto a disk.
An upload will be happening from the data on this disk.
Fokke Nauta
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/security/intelligence/fileless-threats?view=o365-worldwide
On 17/02/2023 21:35, FromTheRafters wrote:
Fokke Nauta explained :
On 14/02/2023 10:46, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
I don't think so.
If a program collects data it will be written onto a disk.
An upload will be happening from the data on this disk.
Fokke Nauta
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/security/intelligence/fileless-threats?view=o365-worldwide
A very interesting article, FTR.
Thank you. ?
David Brooks expressed precisely :
On 17/02/2023 21:35, FromTheRafters wrote:
Fokke Nauta explained :
On 14/02/2023 10:46, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
I don't think so.
If a program collects data it will be written onto a disk.
An upload will be happening from the data on this disk.
Fokke Nauta
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/security/intelligence/fileless-threats?view=o365-worldwide
A very interesting article, FTR.
Thank you. ?
I had already mentioned the CodeRed worm, which wasn't mentioned there,
but is mentioned here.
https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/news/2021/10/what-is-fileless-malware
The great granddaddy of fileless malware.
On 19/02/2023 23:45, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks expressed precisely :
On 17/02/2023 21:35, FromTheRafters wrote:
Fokke Nauta explained :
On 14/02/2023 10:46, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
I don't think so.
If a program collects data it will be written onto a disk.
An upload will be happening from the data on this disk.
Fokke Nauta
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/security/intelligence/fileless-threats?view=o365-worldwide
A very interesting article, FTR.
Thank you. ?
I had already mentioned the CodeRed worm, which wasn't mentioned
there, but is mentioned here.
https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/news/2021/10/what-is-fileless-malware
The great *granddaddy* of fileless malware. <----- *Oops*! *I missed that*!
Thanks again.
The unusual behaviour I noticed was, in fact, caused by a faulty wired
mouse plugged into a USB socket on the back of my iMac!
I even wrote a thread about it! https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254623665
On 14/02/2023 16:32, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 15:33:14 -0000, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
on 2/14/2023, Commander Kinsey supposed :
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 14:45:20 -0000, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org>
wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
Is it ever done?
Most live CDs I have seen have RAMDisk or virtualdisk which is actually
just fast storage pretending to be slow storage.
My short answer above was due to this having even existed.
https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2021/07/15/the-code-red-worm-20-years-on-what-have-we-learned/
It sent and executed 'code as data' to be mishandled by the vulnerable
system's data execution vulnerability. So, it is a program uploading
data to another computer which *might* have the needed vulnerability to
execute it and send it onward while not writing to disk.
Does that mean an AV wouldn't check it as it's not written to disk?
What an interesting thought!
The AV I've been using scans ONLY disks and folders!
On Feb 14, 2023 at 9:19:27 AM MST, "David Brooks" wrote <kwOGL.621554$Tcw8.564215@fx10.iad>:
On 14/02/2023 15:07, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 11:14:27 -0000, Mr. Man-wai Chang
<toylet.toylet@gmail.com> wrote:
On 14/2/2023 5:46 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
How could the data be stored without a disk then?
I meant writing it to the disk on the sending end. Say my computer had
done some calculations, then sent your computer a file of the results.
Can it be done without writing to my disk first?
Where would the information be stored on your computer BEFORE you
elected to send it?
It would have to be stored somewhere -- but usually that somewhere is RAM.
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 16:24:25 -0000, Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Feb 14, 2023 at 9:19:27 AM MST, "David Brooks" wrote <kwOGL.621554$Tcw8....@fx10.iad>:
On 14/02/2023 15:07, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 11:14:27 -0000, Mr. Man-wai Chang
<toylet...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 14/2/2023 5:46 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
How could the data be stored without a disk then?
I meant writing it to the disk on the sending end. Say my computer had >>> done some calculations, then sent your computer a file of the results. >>> Can it be done without writing to my disk first?
Where would the information be stored on your computer BEFORE you
elected to send it?
It would have to be stored somewhere -- but usually that somewhere is RAM.
Amazing how many folk don't know the difference between RAM and disk (not that David's one).
Most people get it when you compare it to a human's short term and long term memory.
When you go to sleep , you forget most of the day's events unless you commit them to long term memory, usually while dreaming to confuse matters.
Ah, now I know what SNIT stands for, it was in your organisation header. I thought it was a nickname.
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 16:24:25 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
On Feb 14, 2023 at 9:19:27 AM MST, "David Brooks" wrote
<kwOGL.621554$Tcw8.564215@fx10.iad>:
On 14/02/2023 15:07, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 11:14:27 -0000, Mr. Man-wai Chang
<toylet.toylet@gmail.com> wrote:
On 14/2/2023 5:46 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
How could the data be stored without a disk then?
I meant writing it to the disk on the sending end. Say my computer had >>>> done some calculations, then sent your computer a file of the results. >>>> Can it be done without writing to my disk first?
Where would the information be stored on your computer BEFORE you
elected to send it?
It would have to be stored somewhere -- but usually that somewhere is RAM.
Amazing how many folk don't know the difference between RAM and disk (not that David's one).
Most people get it when you compare it to a human's short term and long
term memory. When you go to sleep , you forget most of the day's events unless you commit them to long term memory, usually while dreaming to confuse matters.
Ah, now I know what SNIT stands for, it was in your organisation header.
I thought it was a nickname.
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Ken Blake has brought this to us :
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a disk
somewhere on the Internet.
I see no reference to which kind of storage gets used by the receiving
system. I see no mention of "disk" in any of the definitions for
"uploading to the internet" I have found.
Okay, if that definition is acceptable, which it is not to me, there is
still the code red worm which made its way around the internet by
uploading itself to systems without using any slow storage at all.
If he was asking whether a program can upload data to the Internet
without writing to a local disk on the computer the program is running
on, yes, of course it can. But what he meant isn't clear. If that's
what he meant, that's what he should have said.
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard drive.
Does that NOT apply to viwing images from a far distant webcam (as
intimated by 'nospam')?
I've watched snowgate cameras in Scotland to see if a road is closed in winter.
I doubt my browser is writing that live stream to disk.
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks <DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Ken Blake has brought this to us :
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a disk >>>> somewhere on the Internet.
I see no reference to which kind of storage gets used by the receiving
system. I see no mention of "disk" in any of the definitions for
"uploading to the internet" I have found.
Okay, if that definition is acceptable, which it is not to me, there is
still the code red worm which made its way around the internet by
uploading itself to systems without using any slow storage at all.
If he was asking whether a program can upload data to the Internet
without writing to a local disk on the computer the program is running >>>> on, yes, of course it can. But what he meant isn't clear. If that's
what he meant, that's what he should have said.
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard
drive.
Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears if
you cut the power.
Does that NOT apply to viwing images from a far distant webcam (as
intimated by 'nospam')?
I've watched snowgate cameras in Scotland to see if a road is closed in winter. I doubt my browser is writing that live stream to disk.
If you browse a normal webpage consisting of text and a few images, your browser could write that to a cache to make it load faster next time.
But it doesn't have to. It could take the jpg from the internet and put
it into the display RAM.
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks <DavidB@a.new.address>
wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was talking >>>> about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard drive. >>Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears if you >> cut the power.
Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was
talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't
mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. Your
browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was
saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you
play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement.
Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never
actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard
drive.
Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears
if you cut the power.
Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD.
Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was
another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks <DavidB@a.new.address> >>>> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was talking >>>>>> about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a
photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't mean >> it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. Your browser
possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was saying "If you >> see it on your computer, it is there already." If you play a copyrighted
video file, it is there, if you move it from there to another directory,
you might be liable for copyright infringement.
Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never actually >> have the 'whole thing' at any time.
All understood.
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard
drive.
Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears if >>>> you cut the power.
Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD.
Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
On 2/26/2023 6:34 AM, dgb wrote:
Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was
another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
In Firefox, in about:config, you can set the cache so it is implemented
in RAM, instead of on your hard drive. When the power goes off, the
cache contents are then lost, and the cache is clean the next time
you boot up and run Firefox.
More than one browser supports this. There are other browsers that
cache to disk or cache to RAM.
There is also a setting for the size of the RAM cache area.
You can make it big or small.
*******
For about $40,000 , you can build a computer that has 2TB of RAM
(like 16 x 128GB sticks).
Which is the same size as some of the hard drives.
In this picture, they've built themselves a 1TB of RAM computer.
It's a machine with 160 cores (like 80 physical plus hyperthreaded).
The Task Manager shows the 160 cores, and the Task Manager
is running in "heat map" mode. The colour of a square, indicates
the percent CPU usage. Above 64 squares, the computer behaves
"a bit weird" and you need the Workstation version of Windows to
get the full horsepower ("processor groups"). Otherwise, the
scheduler doesn't work exactly right. And that heat map is
a bit lop-sided, so maybe they are running the wrong SKU of Windows.
https://web.archive.org/web/20131016050240im_/http://hothardware.com/newsimages/Item19303/Win8Perf.png
Paul
On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was
talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a
photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't
mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. Your
browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was
saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you
play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to
another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement.
Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never
actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
All understood.
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard >>>>> drive.
Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears
if you cut the power.
Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD.
Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was
another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks <DavidB@a.new.address> >>> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was talking >>>>> about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing
a photo on your screen means that you downloaded it
. By download I
don't mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory.
Your browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I
was saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If
you play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from
there to another directory, you might be liable for copyright
infringement.
Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never
actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard drive. >>>Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears if you
cut the power.
Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD.
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:34:30 +0000, dgb <dgbisat@gmail.com> wrote:
On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was
talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a >>> photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't
mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. Your
browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was
saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you
play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to >>> another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement.
Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never
actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
All understood.
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard >>>>>> drive.
Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears >>>>> if you cut the power.
Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD.
Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was
another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
"storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
For about $40,000 , you can build a computer that has 2TB of RAM
(like 16 x 128GB sticks).
Do 128GB RAM sticks exist?
Are they $2500 each?
Are there motherboards
with 16 RAM slots?
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:34:30 +0000, dgb <dgbisat@gmail.com> wrote:
On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was
talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a >>> photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't
mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. Your
browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was
saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you
play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to >>> another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement.
Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never
actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
All understood.
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard >>>>>> drive.
Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears >>>>> if you cut the power.
Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD.
Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was
another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
"storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:12:44 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks <DavidB@a.new.address> >>>> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was talking >>>>>> about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing
a photo on your screen means that you downloaded it
It doesn't mean that to me. If you copy a photo from your phone or
camera to your computer, that copying isn't what I would call a
download. It's much more like an upload as far as I'm concerned.
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:34:30 +0000, dgb <dgbisat@gmail.com> wrote:
On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was
talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a >>> photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't
mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. Your
browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was
saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you
play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to >>> another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement.
Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never
actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
All understood.
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard >>>>>> drive.
Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears >>>>> if you cut the power.
Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD.
Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was
another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
"storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
"storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
Did you know that the cache on the processor, can
be used to store program variables ?
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:34:30 +0000, dgb <dgbisat@gmail.com> wrote:
On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was
talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a >>> photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't
mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. Your
browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was
saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you
play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to >>> another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement.
Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never
actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
All understood.
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard >>>>>> drive.
Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears >>>>> if you cut the power.
Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD.
Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was
another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
"storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
Ken Blake explained on 2/26/2023 :
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:12:44 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks <DavidB@a.new.address> >>>>> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was talking >>>>>>> about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing
a photo on your screen means that you downloaded it
It doesn't mean that to me. If you copy a photo from your phone or
camera to your computer, that copying isn't what I would call a
download. It's much more like an upload as far as I'm concerned.
To me it's just a copy.
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:12:44 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks <DavidB@a.new.address> >>>> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was talking >>>>>> about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing
a photo on your screen means that you downloaded it
It doesn't mean that to me. If you copy a photo from your phone or
camera to your computer, that copying isn't what I would call a
download. It's much more like an upload as far as I'm concerned.
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:54:55 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:34:30 +0000, dgb <dgbisat@gmail.com> wrote:
On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a >>>> photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't >>>> mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. YourAgreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was >>>>>>>> talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./ >>>>
browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was
saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you
play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to >>>> another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement.
Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never
actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
All understood.
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard >>>>>>> drive.
Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears >>>>>> if you cut the power.
Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD.
Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was
another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
"storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
For most of the first year that I had only a Commodore64, RAM was the
only type of storage that I had available. I finally added a Datassette (cassette tape storage), but before that I just kept the C64 powered on
so that I wouldn't lose my programs. So for me, and from an early age,
RAM is definitely a type of storage, even more so once RAM drives came
along.
The ZX81 was like that. Cassette recorder, some sorta FSK audio.
It would take ten or fifteen minutes to load chess.
I had 16KB of RAM (just so I could use chess).
You can see I've always been a "max RAM" guy :-)
No expense was spared.
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 16:42:35 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Ken Blake explained on 2/26/2023 :
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:12:44 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks <DavidB@a.new.address> >>>>>> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing >>>> a photo on your screen means that you downloaded itAgreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was >>>>>>>> talking about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./ >>>>
It doesn't mean that to me. If you copy a photo from your phone or
camera to your computer, that copying isn't what I would call a
download. It's much more like an upload as far as I'm concerned.
To me it's just a copy.
To me, too, but if I had to give it a ***load name, I'd call it an
upload.
In article <tthhcj$36qrb$1@dont-email.me>, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
The ZX81 was like that. Cassette recorder, some sorta FSK audio.
It would take ten or fifteen minutes to load chess.
I had 16KB of RAM (just so I could use chess).
You can see I've always been a "max RAM" guy :-)
apparently not, since there was a 64k module, which i had, along with assorted other modules.
one of those modules had a serial port, to which i connected a modem
and went online. lower case letters were reverse video of upper case
letters which made stuff somewhat illegible. another problem was the 32 character lines, which meant that a line of text from the remote system
would often wrap to 2 and sometimes 3 lines.
No expense was spared.
mine was all free :)
The ZX81 had a few issues with memory decoding. When you plugged
in the 16KB module, that seemed to disable the onboard SRAM.
It's possible your module would have some holes punched
in the address space.
But at the time, for the money, it was a good toy.
On 2/26/2023 7:39 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:54:55 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:34:30 +0000, dgb <dgbisat@gmail.com> wrote:
On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a >>>>> photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't >>>>> mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. Your >>>>> browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was >>>>> saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you >>>>> play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to >>>>> another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement.Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was >>>>>>>>> talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./ >>>>>
Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never
actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
All understood.
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard >>>>>>>> drive.
Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears >>>>>>> if you cut the power.
Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD.
Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was
another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
"storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
For most of the first year that I had only a Commodore64, RAM was the
only type of storage that I had available. I finally added a Datassette
(cassette tape storage), but before that I just kept the C64 powered on
so that I wouldn't lose my programs. So for me, and from an early age,
RAM is definitely a type of storage, even more so once RAM drives came
along.
The ZX81 was like that. Cassette recorder, some sorta FSK audio.
It would take ten or fifteen minutes to load chess.
I had 16KB of RAM (just so I could use chess).
On 2/15/2023 11:30 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:actually being uploaded to your harddrive.
Ken Blake wrote :
On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 04:10:22 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Every time your computer boots it 'downloads' BIOS or UEFI firmware decompression code from its storage in xxROM and executes it which further allows it to 'download' from the boot harddrive or whatever. Every time that you 'save' something, it is
Not as far as I'm concerned. Our definitions of "download" and
"upload" are clearly very different.
Let's put this part you snipped back in context:
I said "Perhaps scientific method is involved."
Meaning the language changes as the technology evolves.
It *used to be* ( <-- emphasized this time to be clearer) that "upload" simply meant 'send to slow storage (disk or tape)' which was physically located upstairs in the building away from the actual computer room.
I am not suggesting that it is my view *today*, only that your apparent view of "the cloud" as a "disk" is not that far-fetched considering storage as a service is now so widely used.
"Upload" and "Download" are remote terminologies.
Attempts to pervert the meaning, by later generations, won't work.
Different words are used for activities in the
local sphere of influence ("only a microsecond away").
Processors have instructions called "Load" and "Store"
as examples.
"Upload" and "Download" is an old style client-server activity.
"Put" and "Get", "Push" or "Pull", are additional terms used
to clarify which end may have been the client, and which end
the server.
To fully characterize an OS, you take two computers, you put
a server on each machine. There are four tests to run, where
the machine servers files, or it does Put or Get to the
server on the other machine. The four bandwidth numbers, give
you a complete characterization of the performance of the OS.
This was necessary on Win2K, which had a 40MB/sec limit on GbE
network cables. In some cases, it was the brand of networking
chip which was the limitation, but in the case I investigated,
the OS itself seemed to be slow at the job. Whether tripling
the CPU speed would have fixed this, I didn't have the kit to
test that at the time. But that is an example of doing a
client-server characterization.
*******
And this silly thread happened, because the OP would not phrase
his question properly. The scenario is like this:
"I'm torrenting stuff I should not be torrenting.
How can I do this, and not get caught?"
As it turns out, there can be a legal entanglement, without
anyone kicking down your door and examining hard drives. This
is one of the reasons you don't leave an open Wifi running
at your house.
When the movie the "Hurt Locker" was released, download activity
was logged on some honey pot. When the lawyers got an IP, went
to the ISP and discovered "who used 11.22.33.44 on April 9 3:12AM",
they would send a shakedown letter.
"Pay us $1500 by Friday, and we won't take you to court.
Maximum possible penalty per infraction at court is $300,000."
They didn't even waste their time kicking down doors on those.
Ordinarily, using a LiveDVD to run your torrent client, storing
the files in RAM, if you kick out the power plug when the police
show up, that gives you a reasonable chance of not having
physical evidence. Until you transfer it out of RAM, and
onto persistent media.
But if you fear the trip to court
a la Hurt Locker style, just the fact you did it is enough
reason for a demand letter to show up. Whether this is classified
as barratry or extortion today, I do not know. I have not heard
of any demand letter cases recently.
Char Jackson wrote on 2/16/2023 2:28 PM:
On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 13:14:55 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-02-15 18:36, Char Jackson wrote:
Why would a disk (or other
storage) need to be involved? If you transfer data from a local system >>>> to a remote system and it doesn't get stored somewhere, did you not just >>>> upload it?
I don't usually call that "upload" but transfer, send, transmit... it is >>> volatile information. Upload to me has a context of permanency.
I guess I use the more technically correct definitions. If I initiate a
data transfer from 'here' to 'there', I've uploaded it. If I initiate a
data transfer from 'there' to 'here', I've downloaded it. Other terms
can apply equally, I suppose. In either case, how the data is stored, or
even whether it gets stored and for how long, is an entirely different
question, not directly related to the transfer itself.
I understand that language is fluid, of course, so there's room to
accommodate everyone.
I don't get too concerned about the differences in terminology for data
that goes in one or another direction.
If something pushes it(data) to another device or a device requests it
from another device the receiving device/hardware obtaining the info/data
is downloading while the sending device is uploading.
Akin to material balance - in/out, up/down....something is always
accumulated in one or both directions.
Cross posting to useless trolling group removed.
On 2023-02-15 18:36, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 08:51:33 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote: >>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 22:15:43 -0600, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote: >>>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 08:58:01 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500, FromTheRafters <FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk? >>>>>>Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a disk >>>>> somewhere on the Internet.
Now that you know that a remote disk* doesn't have to be involved at
all, I'm curious to understand why you thought otherwise?
Because my definition of "upload" means writing to a disk at the place
being uploaded to.
And that was my question. I was wondering how you had arrived at that
definition. Uploading and downloading involve moving data from one place
to another, but I don't understand how a disk/storage found its way into
the equation as a requirement. That shouldn't have happened.
*Just as a local disk doesn't have to be involved.
I agree with that.
Data can be generated
and moved to another system without being stored at either end.
Yes, but to me, it's not "uploading" unless it's to a disk at the
destination.
That's precisely the part I'm asking about. Why would a disk (or other
storage) need to be involved? If you transfer data from a local system
to a remote system and it doesn't get stored somewhere, did you not just
upload it?
I don't usually call that "upload" but transfer, send, transmit... it is volatile information. Upload to me has a context of permanency.
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:34:30 +0000, dgb <dgb...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
<Dav...@a.new.address> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was
talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a >> photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't
mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. Your
browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was
saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you
play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to >> another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement.
Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never
actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
All understood.
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard >>>>> drive.
Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears >>>> if you cut the power.
Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD.
Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM wasRAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
"storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 12:14:55 -0000, Carlos E.R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-02-15 18:36, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 08:51:33 -0700, Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> wrote:
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 22:15:43 -0600, Char Jackson <no...@none.invalid> wrote:
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 08:58:01 -0700, Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> wrote:
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:45:20 -0500, FromTheRafters <F...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote :
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk? >>>>>>Yes.
No, of course not. Uploading to the Internet *means* writing to a disk >>>>> somewhere on the Internet.
Now that you know that a remote disk* doesn't have to be involved at >>>> all, I'm curious to understand why you thought otherwise?
Because my definition of "upload" means writing to a disk at the place >>> being uploaded to.
And that was my question. I was wondering how you had arrived at that
definition. Uploading and downloading involve moving data from one place >> to another, but I don't understand how a disk/storage found its way into >> the equation as a requirement. That shouldn't have happened.
*Just as a local disk doesn't have to be involved.
I agree with that.
Data can be generated
and moved to another system without being stored at either end.
Yes, but to me, it's not "uploading" unless it's to a disk at the
destination.
That's precisely the part I'm asking about. Why would a disk (or other
storage) need to be involved? If you transfer data from a local system
to a remote system and it doesn't get stored somewhere, did you not just >> upload it?
I don't usually call that "upload" but transfer, send, transmit... it is volatile information. Upload to me has a context of permanency.
What if you don't know what the other end is going to do with it?
And if you're driving your car to a destination and you're not going to park it there, is it no longer travel? Learn basic English.
On 17/02/2023 21:35, FromTheRafters wrote:
Fokke Nauta explained :
On 14/02/2023 10:46, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
I don't think so.
If a program collects data it will be written onto a disk.
An upload will be happening from the data on this disk.
Fokke Nauta
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/security/intelligence/fileless-threats?view=o365-worldwide
A very interesting article, FTR.
Thank you. 🙂
David Brooks expressed precisely :
On 17/02/2023 21:35, FromTheRafters wrote:
Fokke Nauta explained :
On 14/02/2023 10:46, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
I don't think so.
If a program collects data it will be written onto a disk.
An upload will be happening from the data on this disk.
Fokke Nauta
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/security/intelligence/fileless-threats?view=o365-worldwide
A very interesting article, FTR.
Thank you. ?
I had already mentioned the CodeRed worm, which wasn't mentioned there,
but is mentioned here.
https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/news/2021/10/what-is-fileless-malware
The great granddaddy of fileless malware.
On 19/02/2023 23:45, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks expressed precisely :
On 17/02/2023 21:35, FromTheRafters wrote:
Fokke Nauta explained :
On 14/02/2023 10:46, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
I don't think so.
If a program collects data it will be written onto a disk.
An upload will be happening from the data on this disk.
Fokke Nauta
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/security/intelligence/fileless-threats?view=o365-worldwide
A very interesting article, FTR.
Thank you. ?
I had already mentioned the CodeRed worm, which wasn't mentioned there,
but is mentioned here.
https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/news/2021/10/what-is-fileless-malware
The great granddaddy of fileless malware.
Thanks again.
The unusual behaviour I noticed was, in fact, caused by a faulty wired
mouse plugged into a USB socket on the back of my iMac!
I even wrote a thread about it! https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254623665
On 2/17/2023 3:57 PM, Fokke Nauta wrote:
On 14/02/2023 10:46, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
I don't think so.
If a program collects data it will be written onto a disk.
An upload will be happening from the data on this disk.
Fokke Nauta
In an FTP session, you can invoke an interactive
shell command (with the bang symbol)
and pipe the output into "|put".
I did this on a Ubuntu PowerPC LiveDVD session. I'm using
the spirit of that command, and changing the interactive
shell command to a non-disk supply of random numbers, just for you.
This is from memory, as I have no entry in my Notes file for this.
ftp ftp.distant.com
binary
cd mathoddity
!"dd if=/dev/random bs=1M count=1000" |put myrandomnumbers.bin
An upload does not have to be from a file. You can pipe
a generator into an upload.
The original [MS] email program from them, Outlook Express (or Outhouse Distress as everyone called it) could actually run a program without user intervention. You simply looked at the email and the virus started running. What fucking numpty came upwith that idea?
"Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
The original [MS] email program from them, Outlook Express
(or Outhouse Distress as everyone called it)
Admittedly, our adoration for Microsoft over the years has been here
and there. But I will stand by them being the forefront of desktop
personal computing, to date with Windows 11, fuck the BS about staying
with Win10, who cares about their history with buggy software,
they
are a pioneer in the industry, they are American ingenuity at work,
If people want Linux they can run Linux,
and not have to deal with
Microsoft's shit,
I did too for a couple years when Win10 was bad, but
I'm back with MS, now.
On Wed, 01 Mar 2023 08:54:14 -0500, Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote: >>"Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
Admittedly, our adoration for Microsoft over the years has been here
"Adoration"? I've never adored Microsoft. I've never even come close
to adoring them.
They do some things well, some things not so well, and some things
terribly. By and large, I think they do a much better job with Windows
than they do with application and utility programs.
and there. But I will stand by them being the forefront of desktop >>personal computing, to date with Windows 11, fuck the BS about staying
with Win10, who cares about their history with buggy software,
I care. A company's history is usually a good prediction about what is
to come.
I don't think staying with Window 10 is a good idea for most people,
but I don't think a recommendation to do that is BS.
To me, Windows 10 was a great improvement over Windows 8 and 8.1. Yes,
I think Windows 11 is even better, especially with added third-party
programs such as Start 11. But that doesn't mean Windows 10 was bad.
they
are a pioneer in the industry, they are American ingenuity at work,
Ingenuity? Maybe years ago, but not for a long time.
and not have to deal with
Microsoft's shit,
Deal with Microsoft's shit? It's not necessary to run Linux to avoid
the thing you don't like about Windows. There are lots of third-party >programs that can improve almost very version. Avoid shit by running
better programs.
I'll just mention a few third-party programs that I use that quickly
come to mind:
Start 11
WinAeroTweaker
Everything
Revo Uninstaller
Firefox
Thunderbird
Forte Agent
KeePassXC
EnPass
WordPerfect
Notepad++
Foxit
Paint.net
Moffsoft Calculator
Wizmouse
Wizkey
Printkey
(and others)
If there are any on the above list that you or anyone else here don't
know, I recommend that you at least give them a try. I know that not
everyone prefers the same things I do, but it's hard to know whether >something is better if you haven't tried it.
I did too for a couple years when Win10 was bad, but
I'm back with MS, now.
Again, I don't think Windows 10 was bad, but I do think 11 is better.
On Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:19:19 -0000, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
On 2/17/2023 3:57 PM, Fokke Nauta wrote:
On 14/02/2023 10:46, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
I don't think so.
If a program collects data it will be written onto a disk.
An upload will be happening from the data on this disk.
Fokke Nauta
In an FTP session, you can invoke an interactive
shell command (with the bang symbol)
The what symbol?
On 2/25/2023 11:36 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
I've watched snowgate cameras in Scotland to see if a road is closed in winter.
I doubt my browser is writing that live stream to disk.
Not so fast, good sir.
I have plucked movie segments out of that cache. There are some
tricks necessary to make a movie from them, however.
When you examine the cache, the oversized files are the movie
segments. The timestamps on them should reflect they're being
pooped out as the movie plays.
If a video wrapper is of a certain type, that does not support
rewind, then it could be coded to NOT dump to cache.
Typically, stuff goes to cache.
The cache is of finite size. You can set the size in about:config.
You can also adjust Firefox so the cache is only implemented in
RAM, and when you exit Firefox, the cache is gone.
Other browsers also have cache controls (even Internet Explorer).
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 09:08:30 -0000, Paul <nos...@needed.invalid> wrote:
On 2/25/2023 11:36 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
I've watched snowgate cameras in Scotland to see if a road is closed in winter.
I doubt my browser is writing that live stream to disk.
Not so fast, good sir.
I have plucked movie segments out of that cache. There are some
tricks necessary to make a movie from them, however.
When you examine the cache, the oversized files are the movie
segments. The timestamps on them should reflect they're being
pooped out as the movie plays.
If a video wrapper is of a certain type, that does not support
rewind, then it could be coded to NOT dump to cache.
Typically, stuff goes to cache.
The cache is of finite size. You can set the size in about:config.
You can also adjust Firefox so the cache is only implemented in
RAM, and when you exit Firefox, the cache is gone.
Ah, to hide things from the police!
Other browsers also have cache controls (even Internet Explorer).
That's not a browser that's an abomination. It's like using notepad to write a letter.
On 2/26/2023 6:34 AM, dgb wrote:
Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was
another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
In Firefox, in about:config, you can set the cache so it is implemented
in RAM, instead of on your hard drive. When the power goes off, the
cache contents are then lost, and the cache is clean the next time
you boot up and run Firefox.
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks <DavidB@a.new.address>
wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was talking >>>>> about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing
a photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I
don't mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory.
Your browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I
was saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If
you play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from
there to another directory, you might be liable for copyright
infringement.
Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never
actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
On 26/02/2023 19:54, Ken Blake wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:34:30 +0000, dgb <dgbisat@gmail.com> wrote:
On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a >>>> photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't >>>> mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. YourAgreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was >>>>>>>> talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./ >>>>
browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was
saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you
play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to >>>> another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement.
Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never
actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
All understood.
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard >>>>>>> drive.
Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears >>>>>> if you cut the power.
Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD.
Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was
another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
"storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
Agreed. Most folk store things on either their own hard drive or in The
Cloud and, with a Mac, on a Time Machine back-up drive too.
On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 16:22:37 -0000, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 01:08:18 -0500, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:
On 2/26/2023 7:39 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:54:55 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:34:30 +0000, dgb <dgbisat@gmail.com> wrote:
On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing aAgreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was >>>>>>>>>>> talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./ >>>>>>>
photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't >>>>>>> mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. Your >>>>>>> browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was >>>>>>> saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you >>>>>>> play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to
another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement. >>>>>>>
Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never >>>>>>> actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
All understood.
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard >>>>>>>>>> drive.
Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears >>>>>>>>> if you cut the power.
Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD.
Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was >>>>>> another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
"storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
For most of the first year that I had only a Commodore64, RAM was the
only type of storage that I had available. I finally added a Datassette >>>> (cassette tape storage), but before that I just kept the C64 powered on >>>> so that I wouldn't lose my programs. So for me, and from an early age, >>>> RAM is definitely a type of storage, even more so once RAM drives came >>>> along.
The ZX81 was like that. Cassette recorder, some sorta FSK audio.
It would take ten or fifteen minutes to load chess.
I had 16KB of RAM (just so I could use chess).
I never had a ZX81, nor any other kind of PC before the early days of
the IBM XT, but I did play chess on several different computers my
friends had. In my experience, those programs were always terrible,
and I could beat them easily.
These days, it's the other way around, of course. There are several
programs that are much better than I ever was; I have a couple--Fritz
and Rybka. There are even a few that can beat almost anyone.
I thought there are now programs which can beat the grandmaster?
It happens that Ken Blake formulated :
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:34:30 +0000, dgb <dgbisat@gmail.com> wrote:
On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a >>>> photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't >>>> mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. YourAgreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was >>>>>>>> talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./ >>>>
browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was
saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you
play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to >>>> another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement.
Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never
actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
All understood.
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard >>>>>>> drive.
Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears >>>>>> if you cut the power.
Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD.
Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was
another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
"storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
Even RAM is storage, just fast storage. It's okay that you have
different meanings for words though, I can cope. :)
On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 01:08:18 -0500, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:
On 2/26/2023 7:39 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:54:55 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:34:30 +0000, dgb <dgbisat@gmail.com> wrote:
On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a >>>>>> photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't >>>>>> mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. Your >>>>>> browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was >>>>>> saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you >>>>>> play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to >>>>>> another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement. >>>>>>Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was >>>>>>>>>> talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./ >>>>>>
Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never
actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
All understood.
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard >>>>>>>>> drive.
Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears >>>>>>>> if you cut the power.
Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD.
Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was
another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
"storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
For most of the first year that I had only a Commodore64, RAM was the
only type of storage that I had available. I finally added a Datassette
(cassette tape storage), but before that I just kept the C64 powered on
so that I wouldn't lose my programs. So for me, and from an early age,
RAM is definitely a type of storage, even more so once RAM drives came
along.
The ZX81 was like that. Cassette recorder, some sorta FSK audio.
It would take ten or fifteen minutes to load chess.
I had 16KB of RAM (just so I could use chess).
I never had a ZX81, nor any other kind of PC before the early days of
the IBM XT, but I did play chess on several different computers my
friends had. In my experience, those programs were always terrible,
and I could beat them easily.
These days, it's the other way around, of course. There are several
programs that are much better than I ever was; I have a couple--Fritz
and Rybka. There are even a few that can beat almost anyone.
On 2/26/2023 7:39 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:54:55 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:34:30 +0000, dgb <dgbisat@gmail.com> wrote:
On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a >>>>> photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't >>>>> mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. Your >>>>> browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was >>>>> saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you >>>>> play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to >>>>> another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement.Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was >>>>>>>>> talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./ >>>>>
Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never
actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
All understood.
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard >>>>>>>> drive.
Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears >>>>>>> if you cut the power.
Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD.
Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was
another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
"storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
For most of the first year that I had only a Commodore64, RAM was the
only type of storage that I had available. I finally added a Datassette
(cassette tape storage), but before that I just kept the C64 powered on
so that I wouldn't lose my programs. So for me, and from an early age,
RAM is definitely a type of storage, even more so once RAM drives came
along.
The ZX81 was like that. Cassette recorder, some sorta FSK audio.
It would take ten or fifteen minutes to load chess.
I had 16KB of RAM (just so I could use chess).
On Mar 12, 2023 at 4:19:09 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote ><op.11pu171umvhs6z@ryzen.home>:
On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 16:22:37 -0000, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote: >>
On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 01:08:18 -0500, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:
On 2/26/2023 7:39 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:54:55 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> >>>>> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:34:30 +0000, dgb <dgbisat@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>
On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was >>>>>>>>>>>> talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a
photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't >>>>>>>> mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. Your >>>>>>>> browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was >>>>>>>> saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you >>>>>>>> play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to
another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement. >>>>>>>>
Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never >>>>>>>> actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
All understood.
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard >>>>>>>>>>> drive.
Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears >>>>>>>>>> if you cut the power.
Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD.
Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was >>>>>>> another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
"storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
For most of the first year that I had only a Commodore64, RAM was the >>>>> only type of storage that I had available. I finally added a Datassette >>>>> (cassette tape storage), but before that I just kept the C64 powered on >>>>> so that I wouldn't lose my programs. So for me, and from an early age, >>>>> RAM is definitely a type of storage, even more so once RAM drives came >>>>> along.
The ZX81 was like that. Cassette recorder, some sorta FSK audio.
It would take ten or fifteen minutes to load chess.
I had 16KB of RAM (just so I could use chess).
I never had a ZX81, nor any other kind of PC before the early days of
the IBM XT, but I did play chess on several different computers my
friends had. In my experience, those programs were always terrible,
and I could beat them easily.
These days, it's the other way around, of course. There are several
programs that are much better than I ever was; I have a couple--Fritz
and Rybka. There are even a few that can beat almost anyone.
I thought there are now programs which can beat the grandmaster?
Yup. Not sure if they do it 100% of the time, but they are damned good.
On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 23:22:47 GMT, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Mar 12, 2023 at 4:19:09 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
<op.11pu171umvhs6z@ryzen.home>:
On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 16:22:37 -0000, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote: >>>
On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 01:08:18 -0500, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:
On 2/26/2023 7:39 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:54:55 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> >>>>>> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:34:30 +0000, dgb <dgbisat@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>
On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was >>>>>>>>>>>>> talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a
photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't
mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. Your >>>>>>>>> browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was >>>>>>>>> saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you >>>>>>>>> play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to
another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement. >>>>>>>>>
Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never >>>>>>>>> actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
All understood.
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard
drive.
Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears
if you cut the power.
Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD.
Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was >>>>>>>> another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that >>>>>>> "storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
For most of the first year that I had only a Commodore64, RAM was the >>>>>> only type of storage that I had available. I finally added a Datassette >>>>>> (cassette tape storage), but before that I just kept the C64 powered on >>>>>> so that I wouldn't lose my programs. So for me, and from an early age, >>>>>> RAM is definitely a type of storage, even more so once RAM drives came >>>>>> along.
The ZX81 was like that. Cassette recorder, some sorta FSK audio.
It would take ten or fifteen minutes to load chess.
I had 16KB of RAM (just so I could use chess).
I never had a ZX81, nor any other kind of PC before the early days of
the IBM XT, but I did play chess on several different computers my
friends had. In my experience, those programs were always terrible,
and I could beat them easily.
These days, it's the other way around, of course. There are several
programs that are much better than I ever was; I have a couple--Fritz
and Rybka. There are even a few that can beat almost anyone.
I thought there are now programs which can beat the grandmaster?
Yup. Not sure if they do it 100% of the time, but they are damned good.
Yes, Alpha Zero and Stockfish.
On 3/1/2023 8:25 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:19:19 -0000, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
On 2/17/2023 3:57 PM, Fokke Nauta wrote:
On 14/02/2023 10:46, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Can a program upload data to the internet without writing to disk?
I don't think so.
If a program collects data it will be written onto a disk.
An upload will be happening from the data on this disk.
Fokke Nauta
In an FTP session, you can invoke an interactive
shell command (with the bang symbol)
The what symbol?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shebang_%28Unix%29
Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :[....]
We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
access stored program machines with attached background storage.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
Memory is about storage.
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 21:26:40 -0000, FromTheRafters <FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
It happens that Ken Blake formulated :
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:34:30 +0000, dgb <dgbisat@gmail.com> wrote:
On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a >>>>> photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't >>>>> mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. Your >>>>> browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was >>>>> saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you >>>>> play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to >>>>> another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement.Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was >>>>>>>>> talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on >>>>>>>> one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./ >>>>>
Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never
actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
All understood.
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard >>>>>>>> drive.
Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears >>>>>>> if you cut the power.
Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD.
Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was
another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
"storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
Even RAM is storage, just fast storage. It's okay that you have
different meanings for words though, I can cope. :)
I can put an apple in my hand, or I can put it in the cupboard. Only one of those is storing the apple.
These days, it's the other way around, of course. There are several >>>>>> programs that are much better than I ever was; I have a couple--Fritz >>>>>> and Rybka. There are even a few that can beat almost anyone.
I thought there are now programs which can beat the grandmaster?
Yup. Not sure if they do it 100% of the time, but they are damned good. >>>
Yes, Alpha Zero and Stockfish.
Is Stockfish one of the ones that beats the best? I did not know that. I knew
it was good.
I think only some of the time. Apparently Alpha Zero is better.
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 21:26:40 -0000, FromTheRafters <FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
It happens that Ken Blake formulated :
RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
"storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
Even RAM is storage, just fast storage. It's okay that you have
different meanings for words though, I can cope. :)
I can put an apple in my hand, or I can put it in the cupboard. Only one of those is storing the apple.
On Mar 12, 2023 at 4:42:03 PM MST, "Ken Blake" wrote ><jlos0i5c97uj7gv7nilem6k7m13m44imn9@4ax.com>:
On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 23:22:47 GMT, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Mar 12, 2023 at 4:19:09 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
<op.11pu171umvhs6z@ryzen.home>:
On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 16:22:37 -0000, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 01:08:18 -0500, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:
On 2/26/2023 7:39 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:54:55 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> >>>>>>> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:34:30 +0000, dgb <dgbisat@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>
On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was >>>>>>>>>>>>>> talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a
photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't
mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. Your >>>>>>>>>> browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was >>>>>>>>>> saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you >>>>>>>>>> play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to
another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement. >>>>>>>>>>
Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never >>>>>>>>>> actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
All understood.
Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was >>>>>>>>> another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard
drive.
Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears
if you cut the power.
Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD. >>>>>>>>>
RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that >>>>>>>> "storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
For most of the first year that I had only a Commodore64, RAM was the >>>>>>> only type of storage that I had available. I finally added a Datassette >>>>>>> (cassette tape storage), but before that I just kept the C64 powered on >>>>>>> so that I wouldn't lose my programs. So for me, and from an early age, >>>>>>> RAM is definitely a type of storage, even more so once RAM drives came >>>>>>> along.
The ZX81 was like that. Cassette recorder, some sorta FSK audio.
It would take ten or fifteen minutes to load chess.
I had 16KB of RAM (just so I could use chess).
I never had a ZX81, nor any other kind of PC before the early days of >>>>> the IBM XT, but I did play chess on several different computers my
friends had. In my experience, those programs were always terrible,
and I could beat them easily.
These days, it's the other way around, of course. There are several
programs that are much better than I ever was; I have a couple--Fritz >>>>> and Rybka. There are even a few that can beat almost anyone.
I thought there are now programs which can beat the grandmaster?
Yup. Not sure if they do it 100% of the time, but they are damned good.
Yes, Alpha Zero and Stockfish.
Is Stockfish one of the ones that beats the best? I did not know that. I knew >it was good.
On 3/12/2023 7:15 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 21:26:40 -0000, FromTheRafters <FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
It happens that Ken Blake formulated :
RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
"storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
Even RAM is storage, just fast storage. It's okay that you have
different meanings for words though, I can cope. :)
I can put an apple in my hand, or I can put it in the cupboard. Only one of those is storing the apple.
Storage can be persistent or volatile.
Hard drive: persistent (I can still read a 20 year old hard drive)
Core memory: persistent
DRAM: volatile (upon power loss or loss of sync clock)
SRAM: volatile (upon power loss)
flash: persistent (ten years minimum, NOR or NAND)
The desktop mini sitting on a cart in a lab in university,
had core memory. You could load a program into core, and
on the spur of the moment, flip the power switch next to the
keyboard, yank the power cable out of the wall, and walk
the cart into a different lab room. Plug in. And your
program was still there, the cursor still pointing at
the line number you were editing. The students loved this!
There were never any fights over the machine. But there was
only one of those (an HP product).
This is persistent core memory, and it was sewn by hand, by some ladies. >Ladies with really good eyesight.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/KL_CoreMemory.jpg
There are enough wires through each core, to sustain "read" and "Write". >After a "write", the "read" operation can sense a 0 or 1 in there.
The timing is on the order of a microsecond or so. It's not a nanosecond device.
The reason we had to move away from that, is the ladies could not possibly >have sewn 64,000,000,000 * 8 to make my computer work :-) It was not
a scaleable technology.
On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :[....]
We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
access stored program machines with attached background storage.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
Memory is about storage.
How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
I know this because it's where my own late son, Nick, studied for HIS
Physics degree!
They'd only just invented transistOrs when I was learning about
electronics!
On 2023-03-13, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :[....]
We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
access stored program machines with attached background storage.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
Memory is about storage.
How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the
Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
I know this because it's where my own late son, Nick, studied for HIS
Physics degree!
I minored in physics and majored in electrical engineering. I was in the last class at that college
to be taught vacuum tubes, or valves as the Brits call them.
On 13/03/2023 21:10, pothead wrote:
On 2023-03-13, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :[....]
We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
access stored program machines with attached background storage.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
Memory is about storage.
How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the
Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
I know this because it's where my own late son, Nick, studied for HIS
Physics degree!
I minored in physics and majored in electrical engineering. I was in the last class at that college
to be taught vacuum tubes, or valves as the Brits call them.
I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when I
was learning about electronics!
Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
through the heart of the pilot.
Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!
On 13/03/2023 21:10, pothead wrote:
On 2023-03-13, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :[....]
We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
access stored program machines with attached background storage.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
Memory is about storage.
How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the
Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
I know this because it's where my own late son, Nick, studied for HIS
Physics degree!
I minored in physics and majored in electrical engineering. I was in the
last class at that college
to be taught vacuum tubes, or valves as the Brits call them.
I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when I was learning about electronics!
Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
through the heart of the pilot.
Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!
I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when I was >> learning about electronics!
Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
through the heart of the pilot.
Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!
This was my favorite 'bad ass' machine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS
David Brooks submitted this idea :
On 13/03/2023 21:10, pothead wrote:
On 2023-03-13, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :[....]
We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
access stored program machines with attached background storage.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
Memory is about storage.
How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the
Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
I know this because it's where my own late son, Nick, studied for HIS
Physics degree!
I minored in physics and majored in electrical engineering. I was in
the last class at that college
to be taught vacuum tubes, or valves as the Brits call them.
I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when
I was learning about electronics!
Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
through the heart of the pilot.
Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!
This was my favorite 'bad ass' machine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS
On 14/03/2023 01:13, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks submitted this idea :
On 13/03/2023 21:10, pothead wrote:
On 2023-03-13, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :[....]
We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random >>>>>> access stored program machines with attached background storage.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
Memory is about storage.
How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the >>>>> Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
I know this because it's where my own late son, Nick, studied for HIS >>>>> Physics degree!
I minored in physics and majored in electrical engineering. I was in the >>>> last class at that college
to be taught vacuum tubes, or valves as the Brits call them.
I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when I >>> was learning about electronics!
Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
through the heart of the pilot.
Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!
This was my favorite 'bad ass' machine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS
Phenominal fire power!
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/transcoded/0/0a/CIWS_Test_USN.ogv/CIWS_Test_USN.ogv.1080p.webm
On Mar 13, 2023 at 6:13:18 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote <tuohnh$l1k$1@dont-email.me>:
I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when I was
learning about electronics!
Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
through the heart of the pilot.
Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!
This was my favorite 'bad ass' machine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS
Big expensive machine that misses more than it hits, and can be defeated by someone wearing a bullet proof vest.
https://youtu.be/Zsf38NYzo5Q
(I am, of course, kidding).
After serious thinking David Brooks wrote :
On 14/03/2023 01:13, FromTheRafters wrote:
David Brooks submitted this idea :
On 13/03/2023 21:10, pothead wrote:
On 2023-03-13, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :[....]
We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random >>>>>>> access stored program machines with attached background storage. >>>>>>>
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
Memory is about storage.
How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the >>>>>> Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
I know this because it's where my own late son, Nick, studied for HIS >>>>>> Physics degree!
I minored in physics and majored in electrical engineering. I was
in the last class at that college
to be taught vacuum tubes, or valves as the Brits call them.
I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters
when I was learning about electronics!
Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
through the heart of the pilot.
Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!
This was my favorite 'bad ass' machine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS
Phenomenal fire power!
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/transcoded/0/0a/CIWS_Test_USN.ogv/CIWS_Test_USN.ogv.1080p.webm
I had heard that the firing rate was 996 rounds in around 13 seconds,
also that the tracking radar could track seven targets at once, enabling
it to shoot the initial target into pieces and then target the pieces.
That's even more than Dustin and his Henry could muster. :)
On 14/03/2023 01:18, Snit wrote:
On Mar 13, 2023 at 6:13:18 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
<tuohnh$l1k$1@dont-email.me>:
I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when I was
learning about electronics!
Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
through the heart of the pilot.
Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!
This was my favorite 'bad ass' machine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS
Big expensive machine that misses more than it hits, and can be defeated by >> someone wearing a bullet proof vest.
https://youtu.be/Zsf38NYzo5Q
(I am, of course, kidding).
Nice clip! My wife cringes whenever I've suggested that we should use
such weapons on the myriad of small rubber boats crossing the English Channel!
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 16:42:35 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Ken Blake explained on 2/26/2023 :
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:12:44 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks <DavidB@a.new.address> >>>>>> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing >>>> a photo on your screen means that you downloaded itAgreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./ >>>>
It doesn't mean that to me. If you copy a photo from your phone or
camera to your computer, that copying isn't what I would call a
download. It's much more like an upload as far as I'm concerned.
To me it's just a copy.
To me, too, but if I had to give it a ***load name, I'd call it an
upload.
Ken Blake used his keyboard to write :
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 16:42:35 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Ken Blake explained on 2/26/2023 :
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:12:44 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks <DavidB@a.new.address> >>>>>>> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing >>>>> a photo on your screen means that you downloaded itAgreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was >>>>>>>>> talking about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./ >>>>>
It doesn't mean that to me. If you copy a photo from your phone or
camera to your computer, that copying isn't what I would call a
download. It's much more like an upload as far as I'm concerned.
To me it's just a copy.
To me, too, but if I had to give it a ***load name, I'd call it an
upload.
I guess I might too, since offload is not a computerese name.
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:51:57 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:12:44 -0500, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks <DavidB@a.new.address> >>>>> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was talking >>>>>>> about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing
a photo on your screen means that you downloaded it
It doesn't mean that to me. If you copy a photo from your phone or
camera to your computer, that copying isn't what I would call a
download. It's much more like an upload as far as I'm concerned.
To me, upload and download are the same operation, and in fact a single transfer can be both at the same time. The difference is in the location
of the observer, or perhaps the location of the entity that initiated
the transfer. One person's upload is another person's download.
On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 00:35:43 -0000, Char Jackson <no...@none.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:51:57 -0700, Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:12:44 -0500, FromTheRafters
<F...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks <Dav...@a.new.address> >>>>> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing >>> a photo on your screen means that you downloaded itAgreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./ >>>
It doesn't mean that to me. If you copy a photo from your phone or
camera to your computer, that copying isn't what I would call a
download. It's much more like an upload as far as I'm concerned.
To me, upload and download are the same operation, and in fact a single transfer can be both at the same time. The difference is in the location
of the observer, or perhaps the location of the entity that initiated
the transfer. One person's upload is another person's download.
I thought you were going to give us a lesson on relativity there.
On Wednesday, 15 March 2023 at 12:14:08 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 00:35:43 -0000, Char Jackson <no...@none.invalid> wrote: >>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:51:57 -0700, Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:12:44 -0500, FromTheRafters
<F...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks <Dav...@a.new.address> >>>>>>> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing >>>>> a photo on your screen means that you downloaded itAgreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's >>>>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./ >>>>>
It doesn't mean that to me. If you copy a photo from your phone or
camera to your computer, that copying isn't what I would call a
download. It's much more like an upload as far as I'm concerned.
To me, upload and download are the same operation, and in fact a single
transfer can be both at the same time. The difference is in the location >>> of the observer, or perhaps the location of the entity that initiated
the transfer. One person's upload is another person's download.
I thought you were going to give us a lesson on relativity there.
It's like asking whether the beer mug is half full or half empty, it depends on who's round it is.
On 15/03/2023 12:41, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 15 March 2023 at 12:14:08 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 00:35:43 -0000, Char Jackson <no...@none.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:51:57 -0700, Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> >>> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:12:44 -0500, FromTheRafters
<F...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks <Dav...@a.new.address>
wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing >>>>> a photo on your screen means that you downloaded it
It doesn't mean that to me. If you copy a photo from your phone or
camera to your computer, that copying isn't what I would call a
download. It's much more like an upload as far as I'm concerned.
To me, upload and download are the same operation, and in fact a single >>> transfer can be both at the same time. The difference is in the location >>> of the observer, or perhaps the location of the entity that initiated >>> the transfer. One person's upload is another person's download.
I thought you were going to give us a lesson on relativity there.
It's like asking whether the beer mug is half full or half empty, it depends on who's round it is.Sounds a bit Quantum to me! There's only beer in the glass if there is someone around to drink it.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 08:13:51 -0000, FromTheRafters <F...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:use this base 10 nonsense. Disks because they can cheat you out of some size, and Apple because they correctly assume their users are thick as fuck.
Ken Blake used his keyboard to write :
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 16:42:35 -0500, FromTheRafters
<F...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Ken Blake explained on 2/26/2023 :
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:12:44 -0500, FromTheRafters
<F...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks <Dav...@a.new.address>
wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was >>>>>>>>> talking about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing >>>>> a photo on your screen means that you downloaded it
It doesn't mean that to me. If you copy a photo from your phone or
camera to your computer, that copying isn't what I would call a
download. It's much more like an upload as far as I'm concerned.
To me it's just a copy.
To me, too, but if I had to give it a ***load name, I'd call it an
upload.
I guess I might too, since offload is not a computerese name.
That reminds me. Some morons have invented the word gibibyte, and think gigabyte should mean a billion bytes. No, computers work in base 2. A billion means nothing to a computer. A gigabyte is 1024^3 and that's final. Only disk manufacturers and Apple
On 15/03/2023 12:41, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 15 March 2023 at 12:14:08 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 00:35:43 -0000, Char Jackson <no...@none.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:51:57 -0700, Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:12:44 -0500, FromTheRafters
<F...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks <Dav...@a.new.address>
wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing >>>>>> a photo on your screen means that you downloaded itAgreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./ >>>>>>
It doesn't mean that to me. If you copy a photo from your phone or
camera to your computer, that copying isn't what I would call a
download. It's much more like an upload as far as I'm concerned.
To me, upload and download are the same operation, and in fact a single >>>> transfer can be both at the same time. The difference is in the location >>>> of the observer, or perhaps the location of the entity that initiated
the transfer. One person's upload is another person's download.
I thought you were going to give us a lesson on relativity there.
It's like asking whether the beer mug is half full or half empty, it depends
on who's round it is.
Sounds a bit Quantum to me! There's only beer in the glass if there is someone around to drink it.
Yup. Not sure if they do it 100% of the time, but they are damned good. >>>
Yes, Alpha Zero and Stockfish.
Is Stockfish one of the ones that beats the best? I did not know that. I knew
it was good.
It's on my phone! It failed to beat my dad's antique computer. Although my phone has a faster processor (stockfish will use all 8 cores, he only has 2), the shitty Samsung only has 2GB of RAM, he had 8. I didn't bother playing it against the new i5 computer I gave him with 64GB RAM.
On 3/12/2023 7:15 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 21:26:40 -0000, FromTheRafters <FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
It happens that Ken Blake formulated :
RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
"storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
Even RAM is storage, just fast storage. It's okay that you have
different meanings for words though, I can cope. :)
I can put an apple in my hand, or I can put it in the cupboard. Only one of those is storing the apple.
Storage can be persistent or volatile.
Hard drive: persistent (I can still read a 20 year old hard drive)
Core memory: persistent
DRAM: volatile (upon power loss or loss of sync clock)
SRAM: volatile (upon power loss)
flash: persistent (ten years minimum, NOR or NAND)
The desktop mini sitting on a cart in a lab in university,
had core memory. You could load a program into core, and
on the spur of the moment, flip the power switch next to the
keyboard, yank the power cable out of the wall, and walk
the cart into a different lab room. Plug in. And your
program was still there, the cursor still pointing at
the line number you were editing. The students loved this!
There were never any fights over the machine. But there was
only one of those (an HP product).
This is persistent core memory, and it was sewn by hand, by some ladies. Ladies with really good eyesight.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/KL_CoreMemory.jpg
There are enough wires through each core, to sustain "read" and "Write". After a "write", the "read" operation can sense a 0 or 1 in there.
The timing is on the order of a microsecond or so. It's not a nanosecond device.
The reason we had to move away from that, is the ladies could not possibly have sewn 64,000,000,000 * 8 to make my computer work :-) It was not
a scaleable technology.
A later technology, was magnetic bubble memory. While in many ways, it involves magnets, it has wires, the domains are in a solid and move
around. Yet, they are still persistent when the power goes off. The
bubbles do not collapse. The advantage of this idea, is the ladies
don't have to sew every bubble. You get a higher ratio of "bubbles"
to "wiring".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_memory
With regard to the DRAM entry, when a computer "sleeps", the memory
chips have power, but the voltage is slightly reduced. The device
is given an instruction for "Self Refresh" and as long as the
chip has a clock signal, a counter inside the DRAM, keeps track
of the rows and columns it needs to visit and do "refresh cycles".
The charge would drain off the floating gate, if the device remained completely passive (like an SRAM would be when sleeping), and the
charge on the gates is methodically refreshed. Perhaps the charge
is guaranteed to stay put for 64 microseconds or something. Whereas
if you stopped the recharging thing, "most" of the cells would retain
their contents for at least a second, or even longer. Refresh is
done faster, to "guarantee" the contents. When this is done
on your laptop, the DRAM remains warm and it is draining the
battery while this is going on. You can't "sleep" a laptop
forever, while it is "on battery". This is why, even in this state,
it's volatile, as the battery will eventually run out. And then
hibernation has to happen in a hurry (if you expect to keep the
RAM contents). Hibernation, records the RAM contents on the hard drive.
On Mar 12, 2023 at 4:42:03 PM MST, "Ken Blake" wrote <jlos0i5c97uj7gv7nilem6k7m13m44imn9@4ax.com>:
On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 23:22:47 GMT, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Mar 12, 2023 at 4:19:09 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
<op.11pu171umvhs6z@ryzen.home>:
On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 16:22:37 -0000, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 01:08:18 -0500, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:
On 2/26/2023 7:39 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:54:55 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> >>>>>>> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:34:30 +0000, dgb <dgbisat@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>
On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was >>>>>>>>>>>>>> talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a
photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't
mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. Your >>>>>>>>>> browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was >>>>>>>>>> saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you >>>>>>>>>> play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to
another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement. >>>>>>>>>>
Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never >>>>>>>>>> actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
All understood.
Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was >>>>>>>>> another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard
drive.
Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears
if you cut the power.
Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD. >>>>>>>>>
RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that >>>>>>>> "storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
For most of the first year that I had only a Commodore64, RAM was the >>>>>>> only type of storage that I had available. I finally added a Datassette >>>>>>> (cassette tape storage), but before that I just kept the C64 powered on >>>>>>> so that I wouldn't lose my programs. So for me, and from an early age, >>>>>>> RAM is definitely a type of storage, even more so once RAM drives came >>>>>>> along.
The ZX81 was like that. Cassette recorder, some sorta FSK audio.
It would take ten or fifteen minutes to load chess.
I had 16KB of RAM (just so I could use chess).
I never had a ZX81, nor any other kind of PC before the early days of >>>>> the IBM XT, but I did play chess on several different computers my
friends had. In my experience, those programs were always terrible,
and I could beat them easily.
These days, it's the other way around, of course. There are several
programs that are much better than I ever was; I have a couple--Fritz >>>>> and Rybka. There are even a few that can beat almost anyone.
I thought there are now programs which can beat the grandmaster?
Yup. Not sure if they do it 100% of the time, but they are damned good.
Yes, Alpha Zero and Stockfish.
Is Stockfish one of the ones that beats the best? I did not know that. I knew it was good.
On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 23:47:55 GMT, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Mar 12, 2023 at 4:42:03 PM MST, "Ken Blake" wrote
<jlos0i5c97uj7gv7nilem6k7m13m44imn9@4ax.com>:
On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 23:22:47 GMT, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Mar 12, 2023 at 4:19:09 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
<op.11pu171umvhs6z@ryzen.home>:
On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 16:22:37 -0000, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 01:08:18 -0500, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:
On 2/26/2023 7:39 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:54:55 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> >>>>>>>> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:34:30 +0000, dgb <dgbisat@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>
On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a
photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't
mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. Your
browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was
saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you
play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to
another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement. >>>>>>>>>>>
Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never >>>>>>>>>>> actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
All understood.
Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was >>>>>>>>>> another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive. >>>>>>>>>I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard
drive.
Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears
if you cut the power.
Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD. >>>>>>>>>>
RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that >>>>>>>>> "storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
For most of the first year that I had only a Commodore64, RAM was the >>>>>>>> only type of storage that I had available. I finally added a Datassette
(cassette tape storage), but before that I just kept the C64 powered on
so that I wouldn't lose my programs. So for me, and from an early age, >>>>>>>> RAM is definitely a type of storage, even more so once RAM drives came >>>>>>>> along.
The ZX81 was like that. Cassette recorder, some sorta FSK audio. >>>>>>> It would take ten or fifteen minutes to load chess.
I had 16KB of RAM (just so I could use chess).
I never had a ZX81, nor any other kind of PC before the early days of >>>>>> the IBM XT, but I did play chess on several different computers my >>>>>> friends had. In my experience, those programs were always terrible, >>>>>> and I could beat them easily.
These days, it's the other way around, of course. There are several >>>>>> programs that are much better than I ever was; I have a couple--Fritz >>>>>> and Rybka. There are even a few that can beat almost anyone.
I thought there are now programs which can beat the grandmaster?
Yup. Not sure if they do it 100% of the time, but they are damned good. >>>
Yes, Alpha Zero and Stockfish.
Is Stockfish one of the ones that beats the best? I did not know that. I knew
it was good.
I think only some of the time. Apparently Alpha Zero is better.
Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 21:26:40 -0000, FromTheRafters <FTR@nomail.afraid.org> >> wrote:
It happens that Ken Blake formulated :
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:34:30 +0000, dgb <dgbisat@gmail.com> wrote:
On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
dgb formulated the question :
On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:[...]
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
<DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a >>>>>> photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't >>>>>> mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. Your >>>>>> browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was >>>>>> saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you >>>>>> play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to >>>>>> another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement. >>>>>>Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was >>>>>>>>>> talking
about the source.
I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on >>>>>>>>> one's
computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./ >>>>>>
Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never
actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
All understood.
I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard >>>>>>>>> drive.
Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears >>>>>>>> if you cut the power.
Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD.
Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was
another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
"storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
Even RAM is storage, just fast storage. It's okay that you have
different meanings for words though, I can cope. :)
I can put an apple in my hand, or I can put it in the cupboard. Only one of >> those is storing the apple.
We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
access stored program machines with attached background storage.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
Memory is about storage.
On 13/03/2023 21:10, pothead wrote:
On 2023-03-13, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :[....]
We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
access stored program machines with attached background storage.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
Memory is about storage.
How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the
Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
I know this because it's where my own late son, Nick, studied for HIS
Physics degree!
I minored in physics and majored in electrical engineering. I was in the last class at that college
to be taught vacuum tubes, or valves as the Brits call them.
I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when I
was learning about electronics!
Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
through the heart of the pilot.
Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!
On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :[....]
We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
access stored program machines with attached background storage.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
Memory is about storage.
How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
I know this because it's where my own late son, Nick, studied for HIS
Physics degree!
On Mar 13, 2023 at 6:13:18 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote <tuohnh$l1k$1@dont-email.me>:
I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when I was
learning about electronics!
Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
through the heart of the pilot.
Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!
This was my favorite 'bad ass' machine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS
Big expensive machine that misses more than it hits, and can be defeated by someone wearing a bullet proof vest.
https://youtu.be/Zsf38NYzo5Q
(I am, of course, kidding).
On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 01:18:00 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mar 13, 2023 at 6:13:18 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
<tuohnh$l1k$1@dont-email.me>:
I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when I was
learning about electronics!
Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
through the heart of the pilot.
Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!
This was my favorite 'bad ass' machine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS
Big expensive machine that misses more than it hits, and can be defeated by >> someone wearing a bullet proof vest.
https://youtu.be/Zsf38NYzo5Q
(I am, of course, kidding).
That took a lot of bullets to not get that boat.
On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:01:45 -0000, David Brooks[....]
<DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :[....]
We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
access stored program machines with attached background storage.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
Memory is about storage.
How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the
Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
No I didn't, that was Dundee.
On 19/03/2023 22:05, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:01:45 -0000, David Brooks[....]
<DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :[....]
We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
access stored program machines with attached background storage.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
Memory is about storage.
How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the
Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
No I didn't, that was Dundee.
My apologies. Dundee is good for cakes, I know.
I had no idea that there was a University there.
Some great photos to explore, here:-no!7i1080!8i1349!4m6!3m5!1s0x48864144ab639cd3:0x94e43b1e384be52a!8m2!3d56.462018!4d-2.970721!16zL20vMDJmdnY
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dundee/@56.462018,-2.970721,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc%3Dw203-h253-k-
On Mar 19, 2023 at 3:09:41 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote <op.112qifp4mvhs6z@ryzen.home>:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 01:18:00 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote: >>
On Mar 13, 2023 at 6:13:18 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
<tuohnh$l1k$1@dont-email.me>:
I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when I was
learning about electronics!
Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
through the heart of the pilot.
Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!
This was my favorite 'bad ass' machine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS
Big expensive machine that misses more than it hits, and can be defeated by >>> someone wearing a bullet proof vest.
https://youtu.be/Zsf38NYzo5Q
(I am, of course, kidding).
That took a lot of bullets to not get that boat.
It did.
On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 23:06:24 -0000, David Brooks
<DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
On 19/03/2023 22:05, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:01:45 -0000, David Brooks[....]
<DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :[....]
We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
access stored program machines with attached background storage.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
Memory is about storage.
How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the
Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
No I didn't, that was Dundee.
My apologies. Dundee is good for cakes, I know.
I've corrected you on this before. You must be getting old.
I had no idea that there was a University there.
There is, there is also a College called Abertay, which pretends to be a University. As our then Dean Stephen Fry once said, "Dundee is a real University, from before the time when any school with a big enough
playground could claim to be one".
k-no!7i1080!8i1349!4m6!3m5!1s0x48864144ab639cd3:0x94e43b1e384be52a!8m2!3d56.462018!4d-2.970721!16zL20vMDJmdnYSome great photos to explore, here:-
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dundee/@56.462018,-2.970721,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc%3Dw203-h253-
Never actually seen any of those places, except the Tay Bridge I cycled
over many times, and perhaps the homeless guy on the bench. He once got drunk and kept trying to cuddle me at the bus stop. Once I gave him a
quid and two blokes told me off! I told them to go fuck themselves.
On 30/03/2023 11:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 23:06:24 -0000, David Brooks
<DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
On 19/03/2023 22:05, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:01:45 -0000, David Brooks[....]
<DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :[....]
We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random >>>>>> access stored program machines with attached background storage.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
Memory is about storage.
How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the >>>>> Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
No I didn't, that was Dundee.
My apologies. Dundee is good for cakes, I know.
I've corrected you on this before. You must be getting old.
Indeed. It's *MUCH* better than the alternative! ;-)
k-no!7i1080!8i1349!4m6!3m5!1s0x48864144ab639cd3:0x94e43b1e384be52a!8m2!3d56.462018!4d-2.970721!16zL20vMDJmdnYI had no idea that there was a University there.
There is, there is also a College called Abertay, which pretends to be a
University. As our then Dean Stephen Fry once said, "Dundee is a real
University, from before the time when any school with a big enough
playground could claim to be one".
I like the quote!
Some great photos to explore, here:-
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dundee/@56.462018,-2.970721,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc%3Dw203-h253-
Never actually seen any of those places, except the Tay Bridge I cycled
over many times, and perhaps the homeless guy on the bench. He once got
drunk and kept trying to cuddle me at the bus stop. Once I gave him a
quid and two blokes told me off! I told them to go fuck themselves.
Well, you would, wouldn't you?!!
Open your eyes next time you visit, eh?!!
On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 13:07:37 +0100, David Brooks
<DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
On 30/03/2023 11:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 23:06:24 -0000, David Brooks
<DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
On 19/03/2023 22:05, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:01:45 -0000, David Brooks[....]
<DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :[....]
We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random >>>>>>> access stored program machines with attached background storage. >>>>>>>
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
Memory is about storage.
How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the >>>>>> Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
No I didn't, that was Dundee.
My apologies. Dundee is good for cakes, I know.
I've corrected you on this before. You must be getting old.
Indeed. It's *MUCH* better than the alternative! ;-)
In the 21st century we shouldn't be dying in double digits. I'm
currently working on cancer research.
h253-k-no!7i1080!8i1349!4m6!3m5!1s0x48864144ab639cd3:0x94e43b1e384be52a!8m2!3d56.462018!4d-2.970721!16zL20vMDJmdnYI had no idea that there was a University there.
There is, there is also a College called Abertay, which pretends to be a >>> University. As our then Dean Stephen Fry once said, "Dundee is a real
University, from before the time when any school with a big enough
playground could claim to be one".
I like the quote!
Some great photos to explore, here:-
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dundee/@56.462018,-2.970721,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc%3Dw203-
Never actually seen any of those places, except the Tay Bridge I cycled
over many times, and perhaps the homeless guy on the bench. He once got >>> drunk and kept trying to cuddle me at the bus stop. Once I gave him a
quid and two blokes told me off! I told them to go fuck themselves.
Well, you would, wouldn't you?!!
Open your eyes next time you visit, eh?!!
I lived 11 miles from it for 25 years. I lived in the countryside,
similar sorta place to where you live, except no beach, but we did have
three reservoirs. I treated Dundee as a city you went to for shops, it served no aesthetic purpose.
On 08/04/2023 03:07, Commander Kinsey wrote:h253-k-no!7i1080!8i1349!4m6!3m5!1s0x48864144ab639cd3:0x94e43b1e384be52a!8m2!3d56.462018!4d-2.970721!16zL20vMDJmdnY
On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 13:07:37 +0100, David Brooks
<DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
On 30/03/2023 11:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 23:06:24 -0000, David Brooks
<DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Some great photos to explore, here:-
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dundee/@56.462018,-2.970721,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc%3Dw203-
Never actually seen any of those places, except the Tay Bridge I cycled >>>> over many times, and perhaps the homeless guy on the bench. He once got >>>> drunk and kept trying to cuddle me at the bus stop. Once I gave him a >>>> quid and two blokes told me off! I told them to go fuck themselves.
Well, you would, wouldn't you?!!
Open your eyes next time you visit, eh?!!
I lived 11 miles from it for 25 years. I lived in the countryside,
similar sorta place to where you live, except no beach, but we did have
three reservoirs. I treated Dundee as a city you went to for shops, it
served no aesthetic purpose.
Well I'm pleased to have been able to show you a little more of what's
on your doorstep. so to speak!
Do you now know all about Adam Duncan?
On Sat, 08 Apr 2023 08:40:19 +0100, David Brooksh253-k-no!7i1080!8i1349!4m6!3m5!1s0x48864144ab639cd3:0x94e43b1e384be52a!8m2!3d56.462018!4d-2.970721!16zL20vMDJmdnY
<DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
On 08/04/2023 03:07, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 13:07:37 +0100, David Brooks
<DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
On 30/03/2023 11:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 23:06:24 -0000, David Brooks
<DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Some great photos to explore, here:-
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dundee/@56.462018,-2.970721,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc%3Dw203-
Well, you would, wouldn't you?!!
Never actually seen any of those places, except the Tay Bridge I
cycled
over many times, and perhaps the homeless guy on the bench. He
once got
drunk and kept trying to cuddle me at the bus stop. Once I gave him a >>>>> quid and two blokes told me off! I told them to go fuck themselves. >>>>
Open your eyes next time you visit, eh?!!
I lived 11 miles from it for 25 years. I lived in the countryside,
similar sorta place to where you live, except no beach, but we did have
three reservoirs. I treated Dundee as a city you went to for shops, it >>> served no aesthetic purpose.
Well I'm pleased to have been able to show you a little more of what's
on your doorstep. so to speak!
Do you now know all about Adam Duncan?
A Google search for Adam Duncan finds someone who videoed a naked girl
in a bathtub (like a parent would never see such a thing), a captain in
the US Navy, a British Admiral born in 1731, a cricketer, a lawyer, a footballer, a.... let's narrow this search down a bit:
Ah, this chap? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Duncan,_1st_Viscount_Duncan#/media/File:Adam_Duncan,_1st_Viscount_Duncan_by_John_Hoppner.jpg
No, never heard of him.
On 23/04/2023 10:09, Commander Kinsey wrote:h253-k-no!7i1080!8i1349!4m6!3m5!1s0x48864144ab639cd3:0x94e43b1e384be52a!8m2!3d56.462018!4d-2.970721!16zL20vMDJmdnY
On Sat, 08 Apr 2023 08:40:19 +0100, David Brooks
<DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
On 08/04/2023 03:07, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 13:07:37 +0100, David Brooks
<DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
On 30/03/2023 11:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 23:06:24 -0000, David Brooks
<DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
Some great photos to explore, here:-
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dundee/@56.462018,-2.970721,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc%3Dw203-
Well, you would, wouldn't you?!!
Never actually seen any of those places, except the Tay Bridge I
cycled
over many times, and perhaps the homeless guy on the bench. He
once got
drunk and kept trying to cuddle me at the bus stop. Once I gave him a >>>>>> quid and two blokes told me off! I told them to go fuck themselves. >>>>>
Open your eyes next time you visit, eh?!!
I lived 11 miles from it for 25 years. I lived in the countryside,
similar sorta place to where you live, except no beach, but we did have >>>> three reservoirs. I treated Dundee as a city you went to for shops, it >>>> served no aesthetic purpose.
Well I'm pleased to have been able to show you a little more of what's
on your doorstep. so to speak!
Do you now know all about Adam Duncan?
A Google search for Adam Duncan finds someone who videoed a naked girl
in a bathtub (like a parent would never see such a thing), a captain in
the US Navy, a British Admiral born in 1731, a cricketer, a lawyer, a
footballer, a.... let's narrow this search down a bit:
Ah, this chap?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Duncan,_1st_Viscount_Duncan#/media/File:Adam_Duncan,_1st_Viscount_Duncan_by_John_Hoppner.jpg
No, never heard of him.
You pinpointed the correct fellow. 🙂
There is a statue of him in Dundee <rolls eyes>
https://uk.trip.com/travel-guide/attraction/dundee/adam-duncan-statue-55996916/
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