I haven't really being paying attention to how television works these days so
I would appreciate some advice on my options.

For the last couple of decades I've had broadband, telephone and TV from
Virgin Media.

Nowadays, the phone is only used to receive calls from scammers.

We occasionally watch television, but usually it's on-demand.

I understand that most TV services now don't actually receive broadcasts at
all - they just receive streams over broadband, even for live television.

That's unlike the Virgin Media service I have right now, that does receive broadcasts via the fibre connection.

Many of newer services have a TV box that is essentially the same as an Apple TV box - a streaming box. All it does is connect to the Internet. (Presumably you could even do without such a box if you had a new-enough television, which I don't.)

Is all that correct? Is broadcast television all over? (And if so I wonder
what the CO2 impact must be of all that streaming.)

Daniele

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On 6 Oct 2024 at 4:19:19 PM BST, "Theo" <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

Is all that correct? Is broadcast television all over? (And if so I wonder >> what the CO2 impact must be of all that streaming.)

It's moving to streaming eventually, but broadcast is still there. It's not clear how streaming compares with having a giant transmitter throwing out hundreds of kW of RF.

Speaking as one who's spent the last couple of days up a ladder installing a new aerial, I really hope it's not all over :)

We've been without live TV for a few weeks (old aerial fell apart) , and actually i've been surprised at how much I've missed it, given that we watch very little that isn't streamed. Maybe it's an age thing though...
--
TimH
pull tooth to reply by email

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D.M. Procida <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:

I haven't really being paying attention to how television works these days so I would appreciate some advice on my options.

For the last couple of decades I've had broadband, telephone and TV from Virgin Media.

Nowadays, the phone is only used to receive calls from scammers.

We occasionally watch television, but usually it's on-demand.

I understand that most TV services now don't actually receive broadcasts at all - they just receive streams over broadband, even for live television.

That's unlike the Virgin Media service I have right now, that does receive broadcasts via the fibre connection.

Many of newer services have a TV box that is essentially the same as an Apple TV box - a streaming box. All it does is connect to the Internet. (Presumably you could even do without such a box if you had a new-enough television, which
I don't.)

Is all that correct? Is broadcast television all over? (And if so I wonder what the CO2 impact must be of all that streaming.)

Seems that way doesn’t it?

We still use the old YouView boxes, as well as a couple of AppleTVs (one
4K, one HD).

We tend to use the aerial feed to the YV boxes for the advert based
programmes. Recording them the traditional way is the only way to skip
adverts without paying a subscription.

I do have a ‘smart’ Samsung TV, but find the built in apps are nothing like as good as the versions on a streaming box (especially the 4K Apple TV).
They also have a habit of giving them a short shelf life too, so they can struggle to perform, or even become non-functional (unless you upgrade the
TV of course).

For that reason our watching is either aerial feed to YV box, or streaming
via AppleTV. It’s just two apps on the TV then.

But, yes, the providers are generally dropping aerial services now. I was looking at EE lately, as they’re now basically BT, and we already have PlusNet (who are also owned by BT) broadband at present. They actually
offer NowTV as their streaming service, and an AppleTV as their standard
box.

I believe even Sky don’t offer satellite options anymore, and Sky Stream
and Glass are what’s offered now.

To be honest, I just find the current state of the TV supply extremely frustrating. The number of subscriptions, and extra hidden fees to get no (rather ‘reduced’, more usually) adverts, and even proper HD (not even 4K), feels like we’re being horribly exploited.

I can see why so many try the ‘dodgy’ media devices.

--
Andy H

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D.M. Procida <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:

I understand that most TV services now don't actually receive broadcasts at all - they just receive streams over broadband, even for live television.

Yes, if by 'TV services' you mean Netflix et al.

That's unlike the Virgin Media service I have right now, that does receive broadcasts via the fibre connection.

Some of the services like BBC iPlayer do receive live (streamed) broadcasts. It's a popular route for watching live sport.

Many of newer services have a TV box that is essentially the same as an
Apple TV box - a streaming box. All it does is connect to the Internet. (Presumably you could even do without such a box if you had a new-enough television, which I don't.)

Most of the services are apps that run on a variety of such boxes. ie you chose your box manufacturer and then download the app for the service you
want to run. The box is plugged into an HDMI port on your TV. If you want
to sign up for a new service it's just installing a new app, not a new box.

The Apple TV box is a good choice as a number of other vendors are very keen
on pushing ads, to the extent they'll snoop on your viewing behaviour to
build an ad profile of you. It is more expensive than them though.

Is all that correct? Is broadcast television all over? (And if so I wonder what the CO2 impact must be of all that streaming.)

It's moving to streaming eventually, but broadcast is still there. It's not clear how streaming compares with having a giant transmitter throwing out hundreds of kW of RF.

Theo

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David Kennedy <davidkennedygm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 06/10/2024 16:56, Andy H wrote:

To be honest, I just find the current state of the TV supply extremely frustrating. The number of subscriptions, and extra hidden fees to get no (rather ‘reduced’, more usually) adverts, and even proper HD (not even 4K),
feels like we’re being horribly exploited.

I can see why so many try the ‘dodgy’ media devices.

Should you not live in a large(ish) town and not have access to fibre etc. then often the only answer is satellite; whether FreeSat or other as the YouView transmitters are limited and buffering all the time can prove a little
frustrating.

Even if you have perfect broadband, there's still a lot that you can't get except via over the air. There's a new service called Freely which is like Freeview but via streaming not via the aerial, however it's only available
on a handful of new TVs so not terribly useful to most people. https://www.freely.co.uk/

Theo

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On 06/10/2024 17:33, Chris wrote:

D.M. Procida <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:

I haven't really being paying attention to how television works these days so
I would appreciate some advice on my options.

For the last couple of decades I've had broadband, telephone and TV from
Virgin Media.

Nowadays, the phone is only used to receive calls from scammers.

We occasionally watch television, but usually it's on-demand.

I understand that most TV services now don't actually receive broadcasts at >> all - they just receive streams over broadband, even for live television.

Not quite. BBC, ITV, Channel 4/5 and other broadcasters transmit all their live channels via the aerial.

That's unlike the Virgin Media service I have right now, that does receive >> broadcasts via the fibre connection.

Many of newer services have a TV box that is essentially the same as an Apple
TV box - a streaming box. All it does is connect to the Internet. (Presumably
you could even do without such a box if you had a new-enough television, which
I don't.)

Yes, so called smart TVs have the apps required to stream the various services; Netflix, Apple TV+, etc.

A dumb telly can be made smart with a dongle like a Fire stick or a Roku.

Is all that correct? Is broadcast television all over? (And if so I wonder >> what the CO2 impact must be of all that streaming.)

I'd say it's premature to say that broadcast TV is over. Freeview is still going strong, although it is mainly the older generations who watch it.

You are correct in all that you have said!

There are some dopey people here!!!

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On 6 Oct 2024, D.M. Procida wrote
(in article <lmfk74FqihuU1@mid.individual.net>):

I haven't really being paying attention to how television works these days so I would appreciate some advice on my options.

<snip>

I understand that most TV services now don't actually receive broadcasts at all - they just receive streams over broadband, even for live television.

It seems I *really* haven't been paying attention.

What's the difference between a live streamed broadcast and a stream of live television over broadband?

MST

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Martin S Taylor <correspondence@mraermtoivnestthaiyslor.com> wrote:

On 6 Oct 2024, D.M. Procida wrote
(in article <lmfk74FqihuU1@mid.individual.net>):

I haven't really being paying attention to how television works these days so
I would appreciate some advice on my options.

<snip>

I understand that most TV services now don't actually receive broadcasts at all - they just receive streams over broadband, even for live television.

It seems I *really* haven't been paying attention.

What's the difference between a live streamed broadcast and a stream of live television over broadband?

You can stream what comes in over your aerial, so you just get a non-stop
video stream - same adverts etc as everyone gets on a TV receiver. There are boxes that are basically an aerial to streaming converter.

But most 'streaming' TV isn't that - they're more or less a 'playout' box. There's the programme stream (football match or whatever) and then the network/platform decides how to mix it up. eg they show you personalised
ads based on your viewing habits, not the generic ads that everyone gets on
FTA TV.

It also means they can be selective about the content they show you - on FTA
TV you get everything that's broadcast, while with streaming TV they can
decide to not show you something if they want to make it pay per view, they didn't pay for the rights, or whatever.

American football in the US is notorious for this: people subscribe to their equivalent of Sky Sports, but it purposely doesn't show you any matches involving a team in your local area - because those rights have been sold to somebody else. Since they know where you are they can black out your local games.

Theo

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D.M. Procida <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:

I haven't really being paying attention to how television works these days so I would appreciate some advice on my options.

For the last couple of decades I've had broadband, telephone and TV from Virgin Media.

We were until recently but virgin Media ramped up their prices so we moved
to sky which also took an opportunity to retire the Apple router which would’ve been the bottleneck.

And generally simplified the network.

Nowadays, the phone is only used to receive calls from scammers.

We occasionally watch television, but usually it's on-demand.

I understand that most TV services now don't actually receive broadcasts at all - they just receive streams over broadband, even for live television.

The terrestrial absolutely do still transmit not sure about sky dishes?

That's unlike the Virgin Media service I have right now, that does receive broadcasts via the fibre connection.

Many of newer services have a TV box that is essentially the same as an Apple TV box - a streaming box. All it does is connect to the Internet. (Presumably you could even do without such a box if you had a new-enough television, which
I don't.)

Ish it’s a set up box much like your virgin media box or sky box.

Or smart TV’s which is all of them run apps and behave appleTV like if on
the clunky side and occasionally with some data spreading.

Is all that correct? Is broadcast television all over? (And if so I wonder what the CO2 impact must be of all that streaming.)

Oh huge!

We use AppleTV the device though have a fee subscription to Apple+ for
month or so, I generally only watch one subscription and let them lapse,
only exception is YouTube premium which stops the advertising as my
shattered vestibular system, finds the motion gives me vertigo and in
general I find the intensity cognitively exhausting so since I do like
number of channels it’s for me worth it.

Daniele

Roger Merriman

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On 9 Oct 2024 at 08:50:28 BST, "Martin S Taylor" <correspondence@mRaErMtOiVnEsTtHaIySlor.com> wrote:

On 6 Oct 2024, D.M. Procida wrote
(in article <lmfk74FqihuU1@mid.individual.net>):

I haven't really being paying attention to how television works these days so
I would appreciate some advice on my options.

<snip>

I understand that most TV services now don't actually receive broadcasts at >> all - they just receive streams over broadband, even for live television.

It seems I *really* haven't been paying attention.

What's the difference between a live streamed broadcast and a stream of live television over broadband?

TCP/IP, I guess.

A broadband streamed "broadcast" is something that the client asks for. "I
want such-and-such", and if it's available then the packets get sent to the client and have to make their way there over the network.

An actual broadcast is sent out by a transmitter over the air, and it's just there, and anyone with the right receiving equipment can pick it up, as long
as they can fish it out of the airwaves.

(I don't actually know what happens when the "air" is not literally the air, but glass fibre, or if for example there is any last-mile/last-metre
conversion to IP to deliver it into the home.

My Virgin Media box for example connects to the world via coax, so clearly there are converters/repeaters of some kind in the picture, and it also offers BBC iPlayer, so it must be able *also* to ask for particular streams.)

Daniele

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D.M. Procida <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:

An actual broadcast is sent out by a transmitter over the air, and it's just there, and anyone with the right receiving equipment can pick it up, as long as they can fish it out of the airwaves.

(I don't actually know what happens when the "air" is not literally the air, but glass fibre, or if for example there is any last-mile/last-metre conversion to IP to deliver it into the home.

My Virgin Media box for example connects to the world via coax, so clearly there are converters/repeaters of some kind in the picture, and it also offers
BBC iPlayer, so it must be able *also* to ask for particular streams.)

Originally analogue cable TV was just a very long aerial cable - the signals were sent on the coax just as you'd receive them from an aerial, and you'd
tune them with the knob on your TV like tuning aerial channels - only more
of them.

There was also encrypted analogue that needed a box to decrypt some
channels, but others were sent in the clear, and FM radio likewise.

Later, cable TV moved to digital - the same RF footprint as a analogue
channel, but digitally encoded to pack in more channels.

The same process happened when aerial TV went digital - the same RF
footprint but digitally encoded.

DOCSIS cable broadband uses a similar idea - take up an RF 'TV' channel and send internet traffic in that slot.

Analogue cable TV has been phased out, but the spectrum is still organised
on the basis of the analogue channel slots.

For their fibre, the earlier installs use 'RF over glass' (RFoG), which is
just the same RF channel slots but over a glass fibre rather than a copper wire. They convert fibre to copper in a box on your wall, and then it's
coax inside.

The newer (post-2021) installs are XGS-PON which is just regular fibre broadband (same as Cityfibre etc*), with no TV signal.


I'm not sure if Virgin are still using the RF channels for sending digital
TV data, or whether it's now sent over IP these days. I think the on-demand channels stuff is all IP.

Theo

[*] Openreach use GPON, which is a slower earlier standard

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