Hi All,

Mum has a fairly new (well, a couple of years) iPad and uses it mainly
for Whatsapp, talking to her extended family, as a camera and a games
platform but because is is only a Wifi model seems to rely entirely on
her iPhone, that she now only uses to keep Whatsapp working on the iPad. ;-(

So, if she was to buy an iPad with mobile connectivity, would she be
able to use that directly, discarding the iPhone and so not keep getting
'cut off' and having to wait to see one of the technical side of the
family to link the iPad to the phone to get her online again?

Ir should she be able to use her existing WiFi iPad without the iPhone
in a way that doesn't regularly need any technical intervention please?

Cheers, T i m


--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

T i m <eternal@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

Hi All,

Mum has a fairly new (well, a couple of years) iPad and uses it mainly
for Whatsapp, talking to her extended family, as a camera and a games platform but because is is only a Wifi model seems to rely entirely on
her iPhone, that she now only uses to keep Whatsapp working on the iPad. ;-(

So, if she was to buy an iPad with mobile connectivity, would she be
able to use that directly, discarding the iPhone and so not keep getting
'cut off' and having to wait to see one of the technical side of the
family to link the iPad to the phone to get her online again?

Ir should she be able to use her existing WiFi iPad without the iPhone
in a way that doesn't regularly need any technical intervention please?

I suspect not: https://www.theverge.com/2022/1/28/22906747/whatsapp-ipad-app-release
so the iPad is stuck with the model where it just forwards the message to
the iPhone to send.

Because of the way iOS and iPadOS have diverged, I think you can't simply install the phone app on the iPad. If you could do that, you'd just need a
way for the iPad to receive the registration text that confirms your number, which wouldn't necessarily need mobile service directly (on Android I think
you can type the code into the app, that you received on another phone).

Or I suppose there's jailbreaking...

Theo

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <1Dz*PLyRy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

Mum has a fairly new (well, a couple of years) iPad and uses it mainly
for Whatsapp, talking to her extended family, as a camera and a games platform but because is is only a Wifi model seems to rely entirely on
her iPhone, that she now only uses to keep Whatsapp working on the iPad. ;-(

So, if she was to buy an iPad with mobile connectivity, would she be
able to use that directly, discarding the iPhone and so not keep getting 'cut off' and having to wait to see one of the technical side of the
family to link the iPad to the phone to get her online again?

Ir should she be able to use her existing WiFi iPad without the iPhone
in a way that doesn't regularly need any technical intervention please?

I suspect not: https://www.theverge.com/2022/1/28/22906747/whatsapp-ipad-app-release
so the iPad is stuck with the model where it just forwards the message to
the iPhone to send.

Because of the way iOS and iPadOS have diverged, I think you can't simply install the phone app on the iPad.

iphone apps (that aren't iphone/iapd universal) can be installed on
ipads and will run in compatibility mode, either actual size or 2x.

an exception is if the app needs hardware not present, such as a gps,
which a wifi ipad does not have, or if it's explicitly blocked by the
app developer.

another issue is that a cellular ipad technically has a phone number
for cellular, but it's *only* data. voice calls and text messages do
not work, so any apps that send a confirmation to the device's phone
number will fail, however, if a different number can be provided, it
should work.

If you could do that, you'd just need a
way for the iPad to receive the registration text that confirms your number, which wouldn't necessarily need mobile service directly (on Android I think you can type the code into the app, that you received on another phone).

Or I suppose there's jailbreaking...

don't do that.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 24/06/2022 21:26, T i m wrote:

Hi All,

Mum has a fairly new (well, a couple of years) iPad and uses it mainly for Whatsapp, talking to her extended family, as a camera and a games platform but
because is is only a Wifi model seems to rely entirely on her iPhone, that she
now only uses to keep Whatsapp working on the iPad. ;-(

So, if she was to buy an iPad with mobile connectivity, would she be able to use that directly, discarding the iPhone and so not keep getting 'cut off' and
having to wait to see one of the technical side of the family to link the iPad
to the phone to get her online again?

Ir should she be able to use her existing WiFi iPad without the iPhone in a way that doesn't regularly need any technical intervention please?

Cheers, T i m

The only way that would work is if you could convince everyone involved to use facetime otherwise you need the phone number associated with the phone.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

David Kennedy wrote:

On 24/06/2022 21:26, T i m wrote:

Hi All,

Mum has a fairly new (well, a couple of years) iPad and uses it mainly
for Whatsapp, talking to her extended family, as a camera and a games
platform but because is is only a Wifi model seems to rely entirely on
her iPhone, that she now only uses to keep Whatsapp working on the
iPad. ;-(

So, if she was to buy an iPad with mobile connectivity, would she be
able to use that directly, discarding the iPhone and so not keep
getting 'cut off' and having to wait to see one of the technical side
of the family to link the iPad to the phone to get her online again?

Ir should she be able to use her existing WiFi iPad without the iPhone
in a way that doesn't regularly need any technical intervention please?

Cheers, T i m

The only way that would work is if you could convince everyone involved
to use facetime otherwise you need the phone number associated with the phone.

Is it possible to run Whatsapp on the iPhone? So no need for the iPad.


--
Graham J

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 25/06/2022 06:31, David Kennedy wrote:

On 24/06/2022 21:26, T i m wrote:

Hi All,

Mum has a fairly new (well, a couple of years) iPad and uses it mainly
for Whatsapp, talking to her extended family, as a camera and a games
platform but because is is only a Wifi model seems to rely entirely on
her iPhone, that she now only uses to keep Whatsapp working on the
iPad. ;-(

So, if she was to buy an iPad with mobile connectivity, would she be
able to use that directly, discarding the iPhone and so not keep
getting 'cut off' and having to wait to see one of the technical side
of the family to link the iPad to the phone to get her online again?

Ir should she be able to use her existing WiFi iPad without the iPhone
in a way that doesn't regularly need any technical intervention please?

Cheers, T i m

The only way that would work is if you could convince everyone involved
to use facetime otherwise you need the phone number associated with the phone.

Thanks guys,

So it seems like it's a bit of a non starter.

The shame is that when Mum lived this way we (any of us pretty well)
could sort out her technical glitches but now she's living with my
luddite sister and BIL who simply don't seem to care enough to want to
bother to even try to help her (at 92 and knowing how important it is to
her), she now ends up being 'offline' to her extended family for long
periods. ;-(

I have even talked my Mum though re-linking the iPad to her iPhone
Whatsapp account over the phone ... and I don't have an iPhone nor iPad
and she's fairly hard of hearing and isn't really 'technical'. This is particularly tricky when things are time sensitive, like being able to
scan in the QR code on the iPhone after getting it up on the iPad etc.

Saying that, I've just taken over her old iPad but because the in-laws
got someone else to help Mum get back on line, it looks like they
changed her Apple account password and now that's locked out awaiting authentication. ;-(

Maybe if we could find her a(n Apple) phablet of some sort, would that
tick all the right boxes? Be a phone for the Whatsapp whilst being a
tablet for her photos and games?

Very few of the family have Apple phones and so I think Facetime would
be out of the question. Skype might work though (Mum uses IM and video
calling) but she also still uses the Portal I got her at the beginning
of lockdown and I think that also uses Whatsapp (or Facebook) and I'm
not sure how many of the extended family still have Skype.

Cheers, T i m


--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 25/06/2022 08:09, Graham J wrote:

David Kennedy wrote:

On 24/06/2022 21:26, T i m wrote:

Hi All,

Mum has a fairly new (well, a couple of years) iPad and uses it
mainly for Whatsapp, talking to her extended family, as a camera and
a games platform but because is is only a Wifi model seems to rely
entirely on her iPhone, that she now only uses to keep Whatsapp
working on the iPad. ;-(

So, if she was to buy an iPad with mobile connectivity, would she be
able to use that directly, discarding the iPhone and so not keep
getting 'cut off' and having to wait to see one of the technical side
of the family to link the iPad to the phone to get her online again?

Ir should she be able to use her existing WiFi iPad without the
iPhone in a way that doesn't regularly need any technical
intervention please?

Cheers, T i m

The only way that would work is if you could convince everyone
involved to use facetime otherwise you need the phone number
associated with the phone.

Is it possible to run Whatsapp on the iPhone?  So no need for the iPad.

Yes, and she does, but the screen is small (compared with her iPad

anyway) and she uses the iPad as a camera for the same reason. She also
plays Rummykub on her iPad, again, no fun on her iPhone 6 (or whatever
it is) screen.

When Dad was alive he did all the technical stuff (with my help in many
cases). When he died and she was on her own, we were only a 10 min walk
away and saw her regularly so she would just hand me stuff on arrival
and I would sort it for her. ;-)

Now she's 1/2 hour away and living with the luddites, (sister and BIL)
she has to rely on the grandson coming round and he doesn't that often.

So as I mentioned elsewhere, if there was an Apple phablet, that might
cover enough of the baes well enough to be a solution (given she rarely
if ever uses her iPhone as a phone these days as she's seldom on her own
and now has a GPS / mobile based panic fob thing).

I don't think the luddites are actively trying to isolate her as
probably 50% of the family are from 'their' side and who also use
Whatsapp to stay in touch with their granny / great granny? ;-(

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:

David Kennedy wrote:

On 24/06/2022 21:26, T i m wrote:

Hi All,

Mum has a fairly new (well, a couple of years) iPad and uses it mainly
for Whatsapp, talking to her extended family, as a camera and a games
platform but because is is only a Wifi model seems to rely entirely on
her iPhone, that she now only uses to keep Whatsapp working on the
iPad. ;-(

So, if she was to buy an iPad with mobile connectivity, would she be
able to use that directly, discarding the iPhone and so not keep
getting 'cut off' and having to wait to see one of the technical side
of the family to link the iPad to the phone to get her online again?

Ir should she be able to use her existing WiFi iPad without the iPhone
in a way that doesn't regularly need any technical intervention please?

Cheers, T i m

The only way that would work is if you could convince everyone involved
to use facetime otherwise you need the phone number associated with the
phone.

Is it possible to run Whatsapp on the iPhone? So no need for the iPad.

WhatsApp is intended to run on a mobile phone. There is a desktop version
but it works via a mobile phone.

<https://www.macworld.com/article/671953/how-to-get-whatsapp-on-a-mac.html/amp>

--
Cheers, Alan

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 25/06/2022 08:18, Alan B wrote:

Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:

David Kennedy wrote:

On 24/06/2022 21:26, T i m wrote:

Hi All,

Mum has a fairly new (well, a couple of years) iPad and uses it mainly >>>> for Whatsapp, talking to her extended family, as a camera and a games
platform but because is is only a Wifi model seems to rely entirely on >>>> her iPhone, that she now only uses to keep Whatsapp working on the
iPad. ;-(

So, if she was to buy an iPad with mobile connectivity, would she be
able to use that directly, discarding the iPhone and so not keep
getting 'cut off' and having to wait to see one of the technical side
of the family to link the iPad to the phone to get her online again?

Ir should she be able to use her existing WiFi iPad without the iPhone >>>> in a way that doesn't regularly need any technical intervention please? >>>>
Cheers, T i m

The only way that would work is if you could convince everyone involved
to use facetime otherwise you need the phone number associated with the
phone.

Is it possible to run Whatsapp on the iPhone? So no need for the iPad.

WhatsApp is intended to run on a mobile phone. There is a desktop version
but it works via a mobile phone.

<https://www.macworld.com/article/671953/how-to-get-whatsapp-on-a-mac.html/amp>

Yeah, both our daughter and myself regularly use Whatsapp via the PC
version and we have also used it via the Web and it's not very often we
have to re-link the PC's to our Whatapp accounts via a phones.

I think part of the issue with Mum is that she does get about, either
where she's now living with luddite sister and BIL, back at the house
(till sale completes very soon) or sleepovers at the grandkids and she
tends to 'dab' at things on her iPad to make things happen / go away and
so may not be giving the best answers in every instance.

If a phablet would work and if easier to get in Android than Apple,
whilst we could do that we made good use of the iCloud for syncing
photos between her iPhone and iPad, and backups in general. If she can
drop the iPhone I guess we can arrange a similar (backup) setup for an
Android device, like Dropbox?

The frustration (for me and her) is it was all going pretty well, apart
from the occasional Whatsapp re-linking and maybe re-booting the router
or iPad but now, with lack of any real technical assistance on hand ... ;-(

Now don't get me wrong, she's not just stuck in her room, she goes out
with them on coach trips on her own etc but she still likes to keep in
touch with her extended family and because of her hearing issues, IM
with pictures and voice chats are actually better for her than a phone conversation, or even face to face.

Daughter, partner and dog are currently in the Lake District and sending
granny regular updates of their activities (they did Scafell Pike
yesterday for instance). Well, they are sending them to our little
Whatsapp group but only granny isn't getting them. ;-(

I guess what I'm saying is this, whilst quite trivial in the bigger
picture level it's quite important to this 92 year old lady (who has
probably moved from the home / garden she loved because of Covid) and I
would love to find her a more stable solution. I don't think money is a
real object but I think if it was all in one device it would be best.

Cheers, T i m

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

T i m wrote:

[]

Snip tale of woe ...

Is there somebody in this ng who lives nearby who could play the part of "honorary grandson", and call in whenever necessary to fix things?


--
Graham J

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

T i m <eternal@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

On 25/06/2022 08:18, Alan B wrote:

Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:

David Kennedy wrote:

On 24/06/2022 21:26, T i m wrote:

Hi All,

Mum has a fairly new (well, a couple of years) iPad and uses it mainly >>>>> for Whatsapp, talking to her extended family, as a camera and a games >>>>> platform but because is is only a Wifi model seems to rely entirely on >>>>> her iPhone, that she now only uses to keep Whatsapp working on the
iPad. ;-(

So, if she was to buy an iPad with mobile connectivity, would she be >>>>> able to use that directly, discarding the iPhone and so not keep
getting 'cut off' and having to wait to see one of the technical side >>>>> of the family to link the iPad to the phone to get her online again? >>>>>
Ir should she be able to use her existing WiFi iPad without the iPhone >>>>> in a way that doesn't regularly need any technical intervention please? >>>>>
Cheers, T i m

The only way that would work is if you could convince everyone involved >>>> to use facetime otherwise you need the phone number associated with the >>>> phone.

Is it possible to run Whatsapp on the iPhone? So no need for the iPad.

WhatsApp is intended to run on a mobile phone. There is a desktop version
but it works via a mobile phone.

<https://www.macworld.com/article/671953/how-to-get-whatsapp-on-a-mac.html/amp>

Yeah, both our daughter and myself regularly use Whatsapp via the PC
version and we have also used it via the Web and it's not very often we
have to re-link the PC's to our Whatapp accounts via a phones.

I think part of the issue with Mum is that she does get about, either
where she's now living with luddite sister and BIL, back at the house
(till sale completes very soon) or sleepovers at the grandkids and she
tends to 'dab' at things on her iPad to make things happen / go away and
so may not be giving the best answers in every instance.

If a phablet would work and if easier to get in Android than Apple,
whilst we could do that we made good use of the iCloud for syncing
photos between her iPhone and iPad, and backups in general. If she can
drop the iPhone I guess we can arrange a similar (backup) setup for an Android device, like Dropbox?

The frustration (for me and her) is it was all going pretty well, apart
from the occasional Whatsapp re-linking and maybe re-booting the router
or iPad but now, with lack of any real technical assistance on hand ... ;-(

Now don't get me wrong, she's not just stuck in her room, she goes out
with them on coach trips on her own etc but she still likes to keep in
touch with her extended family and because of her hearing issues, IM
with pictures and voice chats are actually better for her than a phone conversation, or even face to face.

Daughter, partner and dog are currently in the Lake District and sending granny regular updates of their activities (they did Scafell Pike
yesterday for instance). Well, they are sending them to our little
Whatsapp group but only granny isn't getting them. ;-(

I guess what I'm saying is this, whilst quite trivial in the bigger
picture level it's quite important to this 92 year old lady (who has
probably moved from the home / garden she loved because of Covid) and I
would love to find her a more stable solution. I don't think money is a
real object but I think if it was all in one device it would be best.

Yes a difficult situation for her and I’m sure we all sympathise . I guess
a very large mobile phone might suffice especially if money isn’t a
problem. But is there one big enough? I don’t know if this guide helps.

<https://www.tomsguide.com/best-picks/best-big-phones>

--
Cheers, Alan

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 25/06/2022 09:01, Graham J wrote:

T i m wrote:

[]

Snip tale of woe ...

Is there somebody in this ng who lives nearby who could play the part of "honorary grandson", and call in whenever necessary to fix things?

Now that's a good idea (thanks). ;-)

Upminster anyone?

That would be a good solution when she's at what will be her home base
and I think the younger members of the family should be capable when
she's out and about.

Cheers, T i m



--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 25/06/2022 09:05, Alan B wrote:

T i m <eternal@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

<snip>

I guess what I'm saying is this, whilst quite trivial in the bigger
picture level it's quite important to this 92 year old lady (who has
probably moved from the home / garden she loved because of Covid) and I
would love to find her a more stable solution. I don't think money is a
real object but I think if it was all in one device it would be best.

Yes a difficult situation for her and I’m sure we all sympathise .

I get very frustrated at the 'we don't do technology' attitude of sister
and BIL and especially where my mums involvement is concerned. I mean, I
even suggested to Mum that they take note when someone helps them next
time so they can simply repeat the stapes parrot fashion but (Mum even)
shut that conversation down pretty quickly like not only was it a non
starter, but that grownups should be expected to have to do such a thing
if they choose not to, even when it was obviously very important?

Maybe it's because I've spent my entire life in IT Support / training
of some kind and am a 'people pleaser' (when it comes to technical /
practical thing) that I simply can't understand their attitude and would
really love to find / provide a technical solution that works around *them*.

I guess

a very large mobile phone might suffice especially if money isn’t a problem.

Well, I know she can afford to buy what she likes, it's just if she
would spend serious money on such a thing (old school attitude to
spending money on herself) and us being sure she wouldn't end up in the
same boat?

But is there one big enough?

Well she recently had both cataracts done and so I think her eyes are reasonably good and I think she can still see the iPhone screen ok.
Using Whatsapp on her iPhone is something I know she does still do but
that is also 'broken' at the moment and I don't know why. It can
sometimes be something like it's gone flat, she's charged it up but
forgotten the difference between waking a phone from standby and turning
it on from cold (my Mrs does the same on her SGS8). It seems no point
writing notes to cover such events as I've yet to have my Mum (or Mrs)
keep / read them.

I don’t know if this guide helps.

<https://www.tomsguide.com/best-picks/best-big-phones>

Thanks, I'll give them a read later ... I still have lots of stuff to
remove from her house before the 28th ... ;-(

Cheers, T i m


--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 24/06/2022 21:26, T i m wrote:

Hi All,

Mum has a fairly new (well, a couple of years) iPad and uses it mainly
for Whatsapp, talking to her extended family, as a camera and a games platform but because is is only a Wifi model seems to rely entirely on
her iPhone, that she now only uses to keep Whatsapp working on the iPad.
;-(

So, if she was to buy an iPad with mobile connectivity, would she be
able to use that directly, discarding the iPhone and so not keep getting
'cut off' and having to wait to see one of the technical side of the
family to link the iPad to the phone to get her online again?

Ir should she be able to use her existing WiFi iPad without the iPhone
in a way that doesn't regularly need any technical intervention please?

Hi Tim,

I'm assuming she only uses text chat in WhatsApp on the iPad? As far as
I can see, there is no way to use Video chat outside using a phone.

WhatsApp do specify that it is a 'telephony' service, and does need
telephone hardware in order to work.

BTW, you don't need any apps at all to make it work on other devices, it
works just as well through a browser (perfectly fine using Safari here).

However, I do use WhatsPad Chat myself (although that seems to be no
longer available in the App Store, it still works on my iPad). And from
that search, it does seem you can get apps that support video chat,
although I don't know how reliable it is, as it's probably a workaround.

They simply seem to represent themselves as a browser anyway, the one I
use shows up as a Chrome browser.

I know WhatsApp have been working on a native iPad app, but it's been
much longer arriving than initially expected (was supposed to have been
here by last autumn). I suspect it's been more complicated to get
working than expected.

The problem is with the way WhatsApp works, it's not an issue with the
iPad per se.

As others have said, why not just consider ditching the iPad altogether,
and just go for a large screen iPhone. That's the way to simplify
everything, as it won't need all that registering devices with a QR code malarkey.

I suppose there is Skype (although I don't have anyone else I know that
uses that anymore), or perhaps see if the family are open to trying alternatives, such as Telegram perhaps.

Oh, and Facetime is cross platform now:

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT212619

So that could be an option, maybe :-).

There's also the Facebook Messenger option too. That works without the Telephony restrictions, and offers native support across devices, along
with video chats.

Not that I'm a fan of that, as I try to feed Meta with as little of my
personal life as I can - only stuff my family posts breaks that. But as
I see it, they're all run by Meta anyway, I double there's little to
lose by using Messenger over WhatsApp.

Of course there's plenty of options, and ways around it all, but I do understand the biggest obstacle you have is the end user (been there and
got a few T-shirts out of it ;-)).

All the best.

--
Andy H

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

T i m <eternal@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

But is there one big enough?

Well she recently had both cataracts done and so I think her eyes are reasonably good and I think she can still see the iPhone screen ok.
Using Whatsapp on her iPhone is something I know she does still do but
that is also 'broken' at the moment and I don't know why. It can
sometimes be something like it's gone flat, she's charged it up but
forgotten the difference between waking a phone from standby and turning
it on from cold (my Mrs does the same on her SGS8). It seems no point
writing notes to cover such events as I've yet to have my Mum (or Mrs)
keep / read them.

I don’t know if this guide helps.

<https://www.tomsguide.com/best-picks/best-big-phones>

Thanks, I'll give them a read later ... I still have lots of stuff to
remove from her house before the 28th ... ;-(

As someone who has tried to get technophobic people going on both Android
and iOS, I think Android is likely to just complicate matters further - but maybe there's something to be said if everyone else is on the same platform
so they can better help out. (Assuming they're on a similar 'flavour' of Android - there can be differences across brands). There might also be a Teamviewer style thing which can run on Android that doesn't exist for
iPadOS.

It's worth mentioning that many Samsung tablets are fully fledged phones,
able to do SMS and make/receive calls. So you might not need a 'phone', a tablet would potentially do the job as well. From 2021: https://www.phonearena.com/news/7-tablets-with-phone-functionality-you-can-call-them-giant-smartphones_id59182

The Android tablet market is a bit tumbleweed anyway - Samsung, Lenovo,
one or two Xiaomi, and then no-brand Chinese landfill-ware (plus Amazon,
which isn't full Android). So Samsung is probably the best choice anyway.

If you want to stick with iPhone an XS Max is £250 refurb, if that's big enough: https://www.musicmagpie.co.uk/store/products/apple-iphone-xs-max-64gb-silver-unlocked

Theo

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 25 Jun 2022 at 08:20:08 BST, T i m wrote:

The only way that would work is if you could convince everyone involved
to use facetime otherwise you need the phone number associated with the
phone.

Thanks guys,

So it seems like it's a bit of a non starter.

I've looked into this and find the apps that use the web interface work - or
at least Whatspad Chat that's on my iPad does (but I can't see it on the app store so maybe it's discontinued). I think there might be a risk allowing a
3rd party app access to all that Whatsapp hoovers up. There's also an official beta out, so I'd expect something at some point - but wouldn't be holding breath.

(Good to see you're still about btw - uk.diy is still much the same :-))
--
Cheers, Rob

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 25/06/2022 13:18, RJH wrote:

On 25 Jun 2022 at 08:20:08 BST, T i m wrote:

The only way that would work is if you could convince everyone involved
to use facetime otherwise you need the phone number associated with the
phone.

Thanks guys,

So it seems like it's a bit of a non starter.

I've looked into this and find the apps that use the web interface work - or at least Whatspad Chat that's on my iPad does (but I can't see it on the app store so maybe it's discontinued). I think there might be a risk allowing a 3rd party app access to all that Whatsapp hoovers up. There's also an official
beta out, so I'd expect something at some point - but wouldn't be holding breath.

I only generally get to see Mums iPad/phone when we meet up and
something has gone wrong.

I managed (painfully with my Sister and over Whatsapp) to assertain that
Mums iPhone was now on 'but' showing an unexpected screen when they open Whatsapp. Sister sent me a photo of it and Mum was just in the settings
screen? I suggested they click on 'Chats' (the one with the little red
10 by it) and she then told me it was fixed. <sigh>

The iPad is still offline Mum asked if she could Portal me 10 mins ago
and as yet, nothing.

(Good to see you're still about btw -

Well thank you very much for that (and likewise etc). ;-)

uk.diy is still much the same :-))

On one hand I miss uk.diy (of all forums / newsgroups) and there have
been plenty of times I have had questions that would have been easily
answered by the good folk there. And I guess it was that suitability
that also made it more frustrating when discussing, especially with
those I otherwise respected, how some were happy to knowingly cause
animals to suffer and die, whilst trying to suggest they also loved
animals (only loved to eat, wear, exploit or entertain then I'm guessing).

Here I'm already an outsider so nothing lost. ;-)

Look after yerself mate.

Cheers, T i m


--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 25/06/2022 10:47, Andy Hewitt wrote:

On 24/06/2022 21:26, T i m wrote:

Hi All,

Mum has a fairly new (well, a couple of years) iPad and uses it mainly
for Whatsapp, talking to her extended family, as a camera and a games
platform but because is is only a Wifi model seems to rely entirely on
her iPhone, that she now only uses to keep Whatsapp working on the
iPad. ;-(

So, if she was to buy an iPad with mobile connectivity, would she be
able to use that directly, discarding the iPhone and so not keep
getting 'cut off' and having to wait to see one of the technical side
of the family to link the iPad to the phone to get her online again?

Ir should she be able to use her existing WiFi iPad without the iPhone
in a way that doesn't regularly need any technical intervention please?

Hi Tim,

Hi Andy!

I'm assuming she only uses text chat in WhatsApp on the iPad? As far as
I can see, there is no way to use Video chat outside using a phone.

Text and viewing pictures and links, yes.

WhatsApp do specify that it is a 'telephony' service, and does need
telephone hardware in order to work.

Yes, that was the bit I was hoping to check out with the idea of an iPad running a phone SIM. I didn't think it would make it a phone / phablet
but it wouldn't matter (in a general sense) as she rarely uses the phone
as a phone etc.

BTW, you don't need any apps at all to make it work on other devices, it works just as well through a browser (perfectly fine using Safari here).

Agreed. If I'm ever a guest on a PC and want to access Whatsapp that's
what I generally do (and know it will log me out of all other /
additional (to the phone) devices.

However, I do use WhatsPad Chat myself (although that seems to be no
longer available in the App Store, it still works on my iPad). And from
that search, it does seem you can get apps that support video chat,
although I don't know how reliable it is, as it's probably a workaround.

With mum we try to keep it KISS for obvious reasons. ;-)

They simply seem to represent themselves as a browser anyway, the one I
use shows up as a Chrome browser.

Noted.

I know WhatsApp have been working on a native iPad app, but it's been
much longer arriving than initially expected (was supposed to have been
here by last autumn). I suspect it's been more complicated to get
working than expected.

I have to admit it's all a bit hazy as I haven't really spent much time
with Mum since she joined the in-laws Covid bubble, and so not seem much
of her iPad either. All I know is she has a Whatsapp icon on her home
screen and that she normally uses it on her iPad (rather than iPhone) to
IM with us. If she calls me from her Portal and mine isn't on I can take
the call and video chat on my phone.

The problem is with the way WhatsApp works, it's not an issue with the
iPad per se.

Understood, outside of there not being a dedicated app etc.

As others have said, why not just consider ditching the iPad altogether,
and just go for a large screen iPhone. That's the way to simplify
everything, as it won't need all that registering devices with a QR code malarkey.

No, it was / is a good idea and a logical one once we have accepted that
the iPad can't (currently) run without piggy-backing on a phone (account).

Funnily enough, after reading the replies here I looked in our local CEX
shop window and there was a s/h iPhone 12 Pro in the window but was £750
or summat! I think a similarly sized Samsung of some sort was nearly
half that.

I suppose there is Skype (although I don't have anyone else I know that
uses that anymore),

Yeah, up till recently I only had 2 people using Skype and now it's just
one (to a mate in the USA)

or perhaps see if the family are open to trying

alternatives, such as Telegram perhaps.

I installed Telegram a while back as I was trying to use it for
notifications from my Home Automation (Home Assistant) system. I think
it worked and a few mates have popped up on Telegram but none of them so
far have used it?

Oh, and Facetime is cross platform now:

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT212619

So that could be an option, maybe :-).

Oooh, that's interesting Andy, I'll check that out. ;-)

There's also the Facebook Messenger option too. That works without the Telephony restrictions, and offers native support across devices, along
with video chats.

Yes, I have used that a few times.

Not that I'm a fan of that, as I try to feed Meta with as little of my personal life as I can - only stuff my family posts breaks that.

Agreed (same here).

But as
I see it, they're all run by Meta anyway, I double there's little to
lose by using Messenger over WhatsApp.

Quite. I just think Whatsapp is a bit more like ICQ in it's utility,
even if it is as questionable as FB behind the scenes. ;-(

Of course there's plenty of options, and ways around it all, but I do understand the biggest obstacle you have is the end user (been there and
got a few T-shirts out of it ;-)).

Yes, and I think I remember with the various groups you help to support.
And that's part of the issue isn't it, we appreciate the fact that these
people are trying / willing to keep up with the times and that they
appreciate and try to embrace the benefits such connectivity can give
... so it's even more frustrating (for them and us) when it doesn't
work. It's especially so when we don't hear about it not working or get
the chance / opportunity to do something about it.

All the best.

And you Andy. ;-)

Cheers, T i m


--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 25/06/2022 11:28, Theo wrote:

T i m <eternal@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

But is there one big enough?

Well she recently had both cataracts done and so I think her eyes are
reasonably good and I think she can still see the iPhone screen ok.
Using Whatsapp on her iPhone is something I know she does still do but
that is also 'broken' at the moment and I don't know why. It can
sometimes be something like it's gone flat, she's charged it up but
forgotten the difference between waking a phone from standby and turning
it on from cold (my Mrs does the same on her SGS8). It seems no point
writing notes to cover such events as I've yet to have my Mum (or Mrs)
keep / read them.

I don’t know if this guide helps.

<https://www.tomsguide.com/best-picks/best-big-phones>

Thanks, I'll give them a read later ... I still have lots of stuff to
remove from her house before the 28th ... ;-(

As someone who has tried to get technophobic people going on both Android
and iOS, I think Android is likely to just complicate matters further

Agreed, even if someone has just 'gotten used to' doing stuff Apple /
Android way.

- but
maybe there's something to be said if everyone else is on the same platform so they can better help out.

Strangely, whilst there is some of that here for sure, I don't really
need an iPad/phone here because I have Google.

Years ago I helped a mate set up his new VHS recorder and TV over the
phone whilst he read out the instructions to me? Go figure. ;-)

(Assuming they're on a similar 'flavour' of
Android - there can be differences across brands). There might also be a Teamviewer style thing which can run on Android that doesn't exist for iPadOS.

Only as the controlling client (or other non Android / iOS machines),
not the host I don't think Theo.

It's worth mentioning that many Samsung tablets are fully fledged phones, able to do SMS and make/receive calls. So you might not need a 'phone', a tablet would potentially do the job as well. From 2021: https://www.phonearena.com/news/7-tablets-with-phone-functionality-you-can-call-them-giant-smartphones_id59182

I'll check that out. Funnily (as mentioned elsewhere) I was checking out
some of the bigger iPhone iPhablets? in CEX this morning but realised
they aren't the same format as her 10" iPad, much longer and thinner.
She really loves using her iPad as a camera / photo display and even
takes in on the coach trips to share stuff with her fellow travellers.
Not bad for a 92 year old who only came to 'tech' fairly late in life.

The Android tablet market is a bit tumbleweed anyway - Samsung, Lenovo,
one or two Xiaomi, and then no-brand Chinese landfill-ware (plus Amazon, which isn't full Android).

Yeah, I was trying to get some basic app on a mates Fire the other day.

So Samsung is probably the best choice anyway.

For me (for Mum) the 'best choice' would be one that replicates her
usage of her iPad as closely as possible without the requirement for any additional kit (eg, iPhone) but what retaining any familiarity she does
have with said tech and continuation of the O2 PAYG SIM and iCloud for
backups etc.

If you want to stick with iPhone an XS Max is £250 refurb, if that's big enough: https://www.musicmagpie.co.uk/store/products/apple-iphone-xs-max-64gb-silver-unlocked

(That didn't work for me but I found the XS max). We would have to see
one in the flesh but whilst I can see her using it more than she
currently does her iPhone (as a mini tablet) I'm not sure she would
willingly give up her 10" iPad as that's the second thing she packs when
going out, after her meds. ;-)

As long as we can continue automatically syncing her photos between iPad
and iPhone then at least she can use the Maxi iPhone easier as it's
bigger etc.

Update. Mum eventually came up on the Portal and as we had got her
iPhone back on Whatsapp earlier (she was just in the settings screen
<doh>), I sorta guided her (she was doing the bulk of it herself) though re-linking her iPad to her Whatsapp account and after a few goes
(watching her point the screen of the iPhone at the screen of the iPad
was quite amusing) she announced Whatsapp was back online on the iPad. ;-)

I ran the idea of a bigger phone / phablet and initially it was 'no
thanks ... I don't want to make it more complicated' but I then
explained why the idea was that it actually made it less complicated and specifically in ways that really mattered to her and left her with that thought. ;-)

So whilst she's back online for now, I'd like to know what happens to
take it offline and will continue to look into this phablet solution for
her.

Thanks to all for your help and advice.

Cheers, T i m

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

T i m wrote:

[snip]

So whilst she's back online for now, I'd like to know what happens to
take it offline and will continue to look into this phablet solution for
her.

Given that "everybody" says that Apple stuff "just works" I too would be interested as to why her connection between the iPad and iPhone fails.
I think you need to go there and try to break it. There may be some unfortunate sequence of events that causes the problem.

Can you explain again why an iPad with a phone SIM in it won't meet her requirements? Particularly since she doesn't actually use the iPhone
for ordinary voice calls?


--
Graham J

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 25/06/2022 21:32, T i m wrote:

On 25/06/2022 10:47, Andy Hewitt wrote:

I'm assuming she only uses text chat in WhatsApp on the iPad? As far
as I can see, there is no way to use Video chat outside using a phone.

Text and viewing pictures and links, yes.

Righto, so a full WhatsApp version isn't the priority here then.

WhatsApp do specify that it is a 'telephony' service, and does need
telephone hardware in order to work.

Yes, that was the bit I was hoping to check out with the idea of an iPad running a phone SIM. I didn't think it would make it a phone / phablet
but it wouldn't matter (in a general sense) as she rarely uses the phone
as a phone etc.

I was basically quoting from WhatsApp's own info I've read in the past (couldn't remember the exact location of that now though).

BTW, you don't need any apps at all to make it work on other devices,
it works just as well through a browser (perfectly fine using Safari
here).

Agreed. If I'm ever a guest on a PC and want to access Whatsapp that's
what I generally do (and know it will log me out of all other /
additional (to the phone) devices.

Does it? It doesn't do that here!

[..]

I know WhatsApp have been working on a native iPad app, but it's been
much longer arriving than initially expected (was supposed to have
been here by last autumn). I suspect it's been more complicated to get
working than expected.

I have to admit it's all a bit hazy as I haven't really spent much time
with Mum since she joined the in-laws Covid bubble, and so not seem much
of her iPad either. All I know is she has a Whatsapp icon on her home
screen and that she normally uses it on her iPad (rather than iPhone) to
IM with us. If she calls me from her Portal and mine isn't on I can take
the call and video chat on my phone.

I'm a bit confused about this 'Portal'. That seems to be something on a technical level on a par with using WhatsApp - clearly that's been set
up somehow? As we know the iPad versions of WhatsApp don't support
video, so I'm simply looking for clarity here, as to what you're using
for this.

[..]

Funnily enough, after reading the replies here I looked in our local CEX
shop window and there was a s/h iPhone 12 Pro in the window but was £750
or summat! I think a similarly sized Samsung of some sort was nearly
half that.

Yes, CEX are OK, and I've bought some excellent products from them in
the past. They are quite expensive though.

More recently I've had equally good success buying from the following:

https://www.envirofone.com/en-gb/buy/apple/search

These do tend to send them out with almost knackered batteries (they
read 80%+, but don't hold charge very well), but they do replace them
under their warranty with no quibble.

Most recently I bought my current iPhone 8 from these guys:

https://qwikfone.com/collections/refurbished-iphones

It came in very nice condition, and with a new 100% battery fitted.

As for brand comparison, IIRC the new prices aren't a million miles
apart (for the same product market level), but the differences in used
values might be telling. I know which I'd rather go for, but then I also
have my own reasons for sticking to Apple stuff (I don't have particular
brand loyalty, but for me, they fit in with my own preferred system
setup here, as well as my own preferences for security and privacy).

 or perhaps see if the family are open to trying

alternatives, such as Telegram perhaps.

I installed Telegram a while back as I was trying to use it for
notifications from my Home Automation (Home Assistant) system. I think
it worked and a few mates have popped up on Telegram but none of them so
far have used it?

I haven't bothered myself, and as far as I know, neither have any of the family/friends.

There's also the Facebook Messenger option too. That works without the
Telephony restrictions, and offers native support across devices,
along with video chats.

Yes, I have used that a few times.

It's mainly people contacting me, otherwise it never gets used.

But as I see it, they're all run by Meta anyway, I double there's
little to lose by using Messenger over WhatsApp.

Quite. I just think Whatsapp is a bit more like ICQ in it's utility,
even if it is as questionable as FB behind the scenes. ;-(

Indeed so. I'm not sure if they're fixed the privacy issue with the Chat
Backup system yet, although to be honest, I'm not concerned. I leave
that turned off, as I don't really archive old chats anyway. I auto
store photos and cull those I don't want to keep.

Of course there's plenty of options, and ways around it all, but I do
understand the biggest obstacle you have is the end user (been there
and got a few T-shirts out of it ;-)).

Yes, and I think I remember with the various groups you help to support.
And that's part of the issue isn't it, we appreciate the fact that these people are trying / willing to keep up with the times and that they appreciate and try to embrace the benefits such connectivity can give
... so it's even more frustrating (for them and us) when it doesn't
work. It's especially so when we don't hear about it not working or get
the chance / opportunity to do something about it.

It's not so bad when they're nearby, but when they're miles away, it
becomes more difficult, or impossible. It can also be made worse when
none-tech savvy friends or family interfere too :-/.

Fortunately the only person I need to do tech support for now, lives
with me :-), and I've gradually got her onto Apple stuff too ;-). Which,
joking apart, does make life easier (as the tech is understood, and we
can so easily family share everything).

--
Andy H

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:

Given that "everybody" says that Apple stuff "just works" I too would be interested as to why her connection between the iPad and iPhone fails.
I think you need to go there and try to break it. There may be some unfortunate sequence of events that causes the problem.

It's not primarily Apple that's the problem, it's the clunky way WhatsApp
does it.

(it has its root in the way they do end to end encryption, as strictly
one device to one device communication)

I don't know what's breaking it, but simply having the phone have a flat battery would do it. Which is not unlikely if you never use the phone for anything and wouldn't notice it was low.

Can you explain again why an iPad with a phone SIM in it won't meet her requirements? Particularly since she doesn't actually use the iPhone
for ordinary voice calls?

That's no standalone WhatsApp app for iPad so, outside of jailbreaking, you can't do it.

(there are apps which are a wrapper for the website, but they still need the phone)

Theo

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 26/06/2022 07:51, Graham J wrote:

T i m wrote:

[snip]

So whilst she's back online for now, I'd like to know what happens to
take it offline and will continue to look into this phablet solution
for her.

Given that "everybody" says that Apple stuff "just works" I too would be interested as to why her connection between the iPad and iPhone fails.

Whilst I too would be interested Graham, I have lived most my life in IT Support and only really got the opportunity to learn such things over
time. Eg. A customer has a quantity of people sitting about idle because
their Stat-Mux link is down, they are rarely willing to let me faff
about trying to duplicate the problem, they just want it going and then
the kit left alone and I wasn't going to volunteer to go back after
hours. ;-)

I
think you need to go there and try to break it.  There may be some unfortunate sequence of events that causes the problem.

I think it used to happen (possibly over two iPads and two iPhones) at
her own house, the difference there being one of us was often popping in
so 1) she was seeing us anyway and 2) we would be able to sort it out
fairly quickly. As mentioned elsewhere it could simply be a sequence of
events / finger trouble. Like, say the router has locked up and
something can't connect and it comes up with some bogus massage about
not being able to log in, do you want to 'do something technical' and
her stabbing 'Yes' (in the hope it will fix it). Then when the router is
reset (by us going round and checking the connectivity or asking her if
she can get onto the Internet etc), she's already disconnected Whatsapp etc?

(It was funny as I'd go round there, sit down somewhere and would be
handed the iPhone / iPad / some other tech kit and be expected to fix it
while she was making me a cuppa / sandwitch). ;-)

Can you explain again why an iPad with a phone SIM in it won't meet her requirements?  Particularly since she doesn't actually use the iPhone
for ordinary voice calls?

I think others have explained it here and it's to do with a tablet with
a phone SIM in it not being a phone, it's just a mobile smart device
that's using some of the features the SIM can offer (data, SMS) but not
the one that Whatsapp needs to consider the iPad an acceptable primary
device? <shrug>

Cheers, T i m



--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 26/06/2022 08:49, Andy Hewitt wrote:

On 25/06/2022 21:32, T i m wrote:

On 25/06/2022 10:47, Andy Hewitt wrote:

I'm assuming she only uses text chat in WhatsApp on the iPad? As far
as I can see, there is no way to use Video chat outside using a phone.

Text and viewing pictures and links, yes.

Righto, so a full WhatsApp version isn't the priority here then.

Agreed, however, I think accessing it via the web adds another layer of complexity over running it as an app. It wouldn't for you or I, but I
think it would her.

It's like when people ask me to help them access their eMail because
their POP / SMTP client is coming up with a password issue and I suggest
they check it via webmail (to see if they can authenticate that way). In
most cases they haven't already tried and in most cases I would have
suggested that to them previously.


<snip>

Agreed. If I'm ever a guest on a PC and want to access Whatsapp that's
what I generally do (and know it will log me out of all other /
additional (to the phone) devices.

Does it? It doesn't do that here!

On my Windows PC's yeah. Main PC here is my main access to Whatsapp when
at home. If I go up into the study and am doing some 3D printing or
somesuch and want to use Whatsapp on the PC up there, when I sign in
there it will sign me out downstairs and has always done that across a
range of PC's?

[..]

I know WhatsApp have been working on a native iPad app, but it's been
much longer arriving than initially expected (was supposed to have
been here by last autumn). I suspect it's been more complicated to
get working than expected.

I have to admit it's all a bit hazy as I haven't really spent much
time with Mum since she joined the in-laws Covid bubble, and so not
seem much of her iPad either. All I know is she has a Whatsapp icon on
her home screen and that she normally uses it on her iPad (rather than
iPhone) to IM with us. If she calls me from her Portal and mine isn't
on I can take the call and video chat on my phone.

I'm a bit confused about this 'Portal'. That seems to be something on a technical level on a par with using WhatsApp - clearly that's been set
up somehow? As we know the iPad versions of WhatsApp don't support
video, so I'm simply looking for clarity here, as to what you're using
for this.

Sorry Andy, it's a product, 'Facebook Portal', a dedicated video
conferencing tablet that has brilliant audio (perfect for Mum as she's
hard of hearing), a tracking camera (so you don't have to worry about
keeping yourself in shot, or including others when they enter the scene)
and is easy to use (so Mum can tap on contacts, select our name and
click on Video call).

We bough one for Mum and got 3 others for the family when we all first
went into lockdown and for the first time ever I saw mum looking weak /
lonely. It has been suggested (by the other family members) that the
Portals were game changers.

[..]

Funnily enough, after reading the replies here I looked in our local
CEX shop window and there was a s/h iPhone 12 Pro in the window but
was £750 or summat! I think a similarly sized Samsung of some sort was
nearly half that.

Yes, CEX are OK, and I've bought some excellent products from them in
the past. They are quite expensive though.

Did I see correctly and note there was a 24 month warrantee on those
sorts of product?

More recently I've had equally good success buying from the following:

https://www.envirofone.com/en-gb/buy/apple/search

These do tend to send them out with almost knackered batteries (they
read 80%+, but don't hold charge very well), but they do replace them
under their warranty with no quibble.

Most recently I bought my current iPhone 8 from these guys:

https://qwikfone.com/collections/refurbished-iphones

It came in very nice condition, and with a new 100% battery fitted.

As for brand comparison, IIRC the new prices aren't a million miles
apart (for the same product market level), but the differences in used
values might be telling. I know which I'd rather go for, but then I also
have my own reasons for sticking to Apple stuff (I don't have particular brand loyalty, but for me, they fit in with my own preferred system
setup here, as well as my own preferences for security and privacy).

Understood. We mainly went Apple with Mum wasa because Dad was an Apple
user and so it was a form of respect / continuity for her and we felt it
would best serve her needs. I still believe that is the case (if you
include the iCloud etc), even though none of the other family members
have Apple devices.

  or perhaps see if the family are open to trying

alternatives, such as Telegram perhaps.

I installed Telegram a while back as I was trying to use it for
notifications from my Home Automation (Home Assistant) system. I think
it worked and a few mates have popped up on Telegram but none of them
so far have used it?

I haven't bothered myself, and as far as I know, neither have any of the family/friends.

;-)

There's also the Facebook Messenger option too. That works without
the Telephony restrictions, and offers native support across devices,
along with video chats.

Yes, I have used that a few times.

It's mainly people contacting me, otherwise it never gets used.

Likewise.



<snip>

Yes, and I think I remember with the various groups you help to support.
And that's part of the issue isn't it, we appreciate the fact that
these people are trying / willing to keep up with the times and that
they appreciate and try to embrace the benefits such connectivity can
give ... so it's even more frustrating (for them and us) when it
doesn't work. It's especially so when we don't hear about it not
working or get the chance / opportunity to do something about it.

It's not so bad when they're nearby, but when they're miles away, it
becomes more difficult, or impossible. It can also be made worse when none-tech savvy friends or family interfere too :-/.

Quite! Like in this case the nephew who seems to have reset her Apple ID password (and I got the notification email but knew Mum was having
issues and so likely him dealing with it, couldn't remember if he had
done so or what it was! Luckily daughter remembered something about it
and he had circulated the new password on their Whatsapp group but had
even got the case of the first letter wrong! At least I can now get into
her old iPad and hope to reset it and get back into her O2 account with assistance from Mum over the portals (so she can read out and access
codes etc).

Fortunately the only person I need to do tech support for now, lives
with me :-), and I've gradually got her onto Apple stuff too ;-). Which, joking apart, does make life easier (as the tech is understood, and we
can so easily family share everything).

No, absolutely, it's just that the UI logic IS very different to say
Android and for some of us we simply find the Apple UI illogical? It's
not even that we find the alternatives entirely intuitive, just that
they aren't counter intuitive somehow?

I have played with Apple gear quite a bit over the years (often with the
help of the good folk here) and still jump between Windows, Linux and
Android quite a bit and find them all similarly 'logical' by comparison.

My (trusty) XP Mac Mini is mostly retired now and running on an i5 home
made with W10. I don't seem to have any kit that is Windows 11
compatible so not had chance to try that yet.

I may well do soon as a mate wanted a couple of new laptops setup for
his sons.

Cheers, T i m

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Andy Hewitt <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:

On 25/06/2022 21:32, T i m wrote:

Funnily enough, after reading the replies here I looked in our local CEX shop window and there was a s/h iPhone 12 Pro in the window but was £750 or summat! I think a similarly sized Samsung of some sort was nearly
half that.

Yes, CEX are OK, and I've bought some excellent products from them in
the past. They are quite expensive though.

I've also had a good experience with CEX (not for phones), and the last few phones have been from MusicMagpie without any problems. I've found MM price slightly better than ebay private sales, and of course you get a refurb with warranty as well. (not that I've needed it)

More recently I've had equally good success buying from the following:

https://www.envirofone.com/en-gb/buy/apple/search

These do tend to send them out with almost knackered batteries (they
read 80%+, but don't hold charge very well), but they do replace them
under their warranty with no quibble.

Most recently I bought my current iPhone 8 from these guys:

https://qwikfone.com/collections/refurbished-iphones

It came in very nice condition, and with a new 100% battery fitted.

Also worth mentioning:
https://www.backmarket.co.uk/
who are a marketplace for independent phone shops that do their own refurbs.
I haven't tried them but they look comparable.

As for brand comparison, IIRC the new prices aren't a million miles
apart (for the same product market level), but the differences in used
values might be telling. I know which I'd rather go for, but then I also
have my own reasons for sticking to Apple stuff (I don't have particular brand loyalty, but for me, they fit in with my own preferred system
setup here, as well as my own preferences for security and privacy).

Samsung have a weird pricing strategy where they price the phone high to
begin with, and then after 6 months the new phone street price is often half the sticker price. That's roughly an 'early adopter tax', and it makes the depreciation look much worse than it actually is if you refrain from buying
the thing until 6 months after launch.

Theo

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 26/06/2022 09:51, Theo wrote:

Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:

Given that "everybody" says that Apple stuff "just works" I too would be
interested as to why her connection between the iPad and iPhone fails.
I think you need to go there and try to break it. There may be some
unfortunate sequence of events that causes the problem.

It's not primarily Apple that's the problem, it's the clunky way WhatsApp does it.

(it has its root in the way they do end to end encryption, as strictly
one device to one device communication)

I don't know what's breaking it, but simply having the phone have a flat battery would do it. Which is not unlikely if you never use the phone for anything and wouldn't notice it was low.

I think that is highly likely in this case Theo.

Mum sees her iPad as her primary device and so is fairly diligent in
keeping it charged. As you say, the only time she uses the phone is when
she can't get her iPad on Whatsapp and that could (as you suggest)
simply be because she's let the iPhone go flat. Doh!

<snip>

Cheers, T i m

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 26/06/2022 10:10, Theo wrote:

Andy Hewitt <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:

On 25/06/2022 21:32, T i m wrote:

Funnily enough, after reading the replies here I looked in our local CEX >>> shop window and there was a s/h iPhone 12 Pro in the window but was £750 >>> or summat! I think a similarly sized Samsung of some sort was nearly
half that.

Yes, CEX are OK, and I've bought some excellent products from them in
the past. They are quite expensive though.

I've also had a good experience with CEX (not for phones), and the last few phones have been from MusicMagpie without any problems. I've found MM price slightly better than ebay private sales, and of course you get a refurb with warranty as well. (not that I've needed it)

More recently I've had equally good success buying from the following:

https://www.envirofone.com/en-gb/buy/apple/search

These do tend to send them out with almost knackered batteries (they
read 80%+, but don't hold charge very well), but they do replace them
under their warranty with no quibble.

Most recently I bought my current iPhone 8 from these guys:

https://qwikfone.com/collections/refurbished-iphones

It came in very nice condition, and with a new 100% battery fitted.

Also worth mentioning:
https://www.backmarket.co.uk/
who are a marketplace for independent phone shops that do their own refurbs. I haven't tried them but they look comparable.

As for brand comparison, IIRC the new prices aren't a million miles
apart (for the same product market level), but the differences in used
values might be telling. I know which I'd rather go for, but then I also
have my own reasons for sticking to Apple stuff (I don't have particular
brand loyalty, but for me, they fit in with my own preferred system
setup here, as well as my own preferences for security and privacy).

Samsung have a weird pricing strategy where they price the phone high to begin with, and then after 6 months the new phone street price is often half the sticker price. That's roughly an 'early adopter tax', and it makes the depreciation look much worse than it actually is if you refrain from buying the thing until 6 months after launch.

Theo

(Thanks for the feedback Andy. I will be investigating this closer when
Mums house empty / sale is complete, due on the 28th!)

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 26/06/2022 10:09, T i m wrote:

On 26/06/2022 08:49, Andy Hewitt wrote:

[..]

Righto, so a full WhatsApp version isn't the priority here then.

Agreed, however, I think accessing it via the web adds another layer of complexity over running it as an app. It wouldn't for you or I, but I
think it would her.

Not necessarily. Once set up correctly. it shouldn't be any different at
all.

It's recommended usage is to add the Bookmark from Safari onto the
Homescreen. Once this is done, it's just a matter of clicking onto it,
as with any app.

The UI within the browser is actually identical.

It's like when people ask me to help them access their eMail because
their POP / SMTP client is coming up with a password issue and I suggest
they check it via webmail (to see if they can authenticate that way). In
most cases they haven't already tried and in most cases I would have suggested that to them previously.

Again, you can place the bookmark onto the Homescreen, so it's just a
single click away. They probably wouldn't even be aware they've used the browser.

<snip>

Agreed. If I'm ever a guest on a PC and want to access Whatsapp
that's what I generally do (and know it will log me out of all other
/ additional (to the phone) devices.

Does it? It doesn't do that here!

On my Windows PC's yeah. Main PC here is my main access to Whatsapp when
at home. If I go up into the study and am doing some 3D printing or
somesuch and want to use Whatsapp on the PC up there, when I sign in
there it will sign me out downstairs and has always done that across a
range of PC's?

Strange, all my stuff has stayed logged in on all devices.

[..]

I'm a bit confused about this 'Portal'. That seems to be something on
a technical level on a par with using WhatsApp - clearly that's been
set up somehow? As we know the iPad versions of WhatsApp don't support
video, so I'm simply looking for clarity here, as to what you're using
for this.

Sorry Andy, it's a product, 'Facebook Portal', a dedicated video
conferencing tablet that has brilliant audio (perfect for Mum as she's
hard of hearing), a tracking camera (so you don't have to worry about
keeping yourself in shot, or including others when they enter the scene)
and is easy to use (so Mum can tap on contacts, select our name and
click on Video call).

We bough one for Mum and got 3 others for the family when we all first
went into lockdown and for the first time ever I saw mum looking weak / lonely. It has been suggested (by the other family members) that the
Portals were game changers.

Right, understand now.

Yeah, I would rather use two paper cups and some string, or smoke
signals, than let Facebook anywhere near my house with that much
technology ;-).

[..]

Yes, CEX are OK, and I've bought some excellent products from them in
the past. They are quite expensive though.

Did I see correctly and note there was a 24 month warrantee on those
sorts of product?

Yes, you did.

[..]

Fortunately the only person I need to do tech support for now, lives
with me :-), and I've gradually got her onto Apple stuff too ;-).
Which, joking apart, does make life easier (as the tech is understood,
and we can so easily family share everything).

No, absolutely, it's just that the UI logic IS very different to say
Android and for some of us we simply find the Apple UI illogical? It's
not even that we find the alternatives entirely intuitive, just that
they aren't counter intuitive somehow?

You are weird ;-).

I actually disagree. I don't think the UI is all that different between
them all nowadays. As for the Apple UI being illogical? Wow, that's
unusual (you are in danger of being accused of 'Apple Bashing' now :-)).

As far as I have experienced, and I use Windows at work, Apple at home,
and we do have an Android tablet (wife uses that just for Kindle
reading), and I do occasionally dabble in Linux (even recently), there's
very little between them as far as being intuitive goes, IMHO - at least
in every day usage.

If you looking at getting settings right, and problem solving, then
jeez, I doubt anything holds a candle to Windows as to how
counter-intuitive that can be.

I have played with Apple gear quite a bit over the years (often with the
help of the good folk here) and still jump between Windows, Linux and
Android quite a bit and find them all similarly 'logical' by comparison.

With any of them, it's just a matter of learning your way around them.
And to be fair, if you can manage fine with Linux, then MacOS is very
similar (it can be near identical if you pick the right Linux distro),
even more so if you are familiar with CLI.

Your logic there doesn't really make sense, unless you're just having a
dig at Apple.

Of course we have our own preferences, but there's certainly more than
the UI to my choice of platform. I certainly wouldn't have a problem
using any of these systems with regard to UI alone.

But, take into account security and privacy, and integration into a multi-device system, then it really is hard to beat (not saying it's
perfect, for sure).

I'm actually annoyed, and concerned, about the 'do-gooders' trying to
open up the App store, and other ways Apple does use a closed system.
For me, this is one of the main reasons I do choose it over other
systems. I want things to be closed in, and difficult to hack, or sneak
in malicious code, or be able to invade my privacy. If they lose that,
then I would have a less compelling reason to stick with Apple.

Cheers.

--
Andy H

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Andy Hewitt <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:

On 26/06/2022 10:09, T i m wrote:

On 26/06/2022 08:49, Andy Hewitt wrote:

[..]

Righto, so a full WhatsApp version isn't the priority here then.

Agreed, however, I think accessing it via the web adds another layer of complexity over running it as an app. It wouldn't for you or I, but I
think it would her.

Not necessarily. Once set up correctly. it shouldn't be any different at
all.

It's recommended usage is to add the Bookmark from Safari onto the Homescreen. Once this is done, it's just a matter of clicking onto it,
as with any app.

The UI within the browser is actually identical.

Does it ever re-authenticate with the phone? I think that's the concern:
you set it up on the iPad, and then after a while it says 'we haven't seen
the phone lately, we sent it a code, please enter it here'. Which some may
not cope with. If the phone is turned off because the battery is flat, it
may well decide it hasn't checked in lately and needs to do that.

(in particular those who learn how to use things by rote - this button does this, etc - and taking them off-piste is a recipe for trouble)

You are weird ;-).

I actually disagree. I don't think the UI is all that different between
them all nowadays. As for the Apple UI being illogical? Wow, that's
unusual (you are in danger of being accused of 'Apple Bashing' now :-)).

OK, here we go :-)

The one thing I find utterly illogical about iOS is the global 'settings'
app. On every other computer ever, settings live inside the app they are
for. Maybe it's 'Preferences' or 'Properties' or 'Configuration' or
something, but it's always there - eg macOS standardises how to find it.

But on iOS I have to come *out* of the app I want to change the settings
for, go back to the home screen, find the Settings app, and then find the
app I've just been in out of the hundred in the list. There seems to be no
way for apps to say 'take me to the settings for this app' from inside the
app.

(which is not to say Android's hamburger menus are any more obvious, having their own flaws)

Another one is how rotation lock only locks in portrait mode, and to lock in landscape you have to enable accessibility features and have the
accessibility blob onscreen at all times. But then half of Apple's apps
don't work in landscape. Still, give them time, it's only been 15 years.

</rant>

I'm actually annoyed, and concerned, about the 'do-gooders' trying to
open up the App store, and other ways Apple does use a closed system.
For me, this is one of the main reasons I do choose it over other
systems. I want things to be closed in, and difficult to hack, or sneak
in malicious code, or be able to invade my privacy. If they lose that,
then I would have a less compelling reason to stick with Apple.

The thing is, that's the exact source of the problem in this thread. If you could sideload, you could take the WhatsApp iOS .ipa, modify its flags to
make it compatible with iPad, and then you could sideload it. You'd have to self-sign it but it would work. But, because Apple have locked that down,
the only route to doing that is jailbreaking.

This is not hypothetical: there are tools to do exactly that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbfehig_NT4

(If sideloading was enabled, nobody is forcing you to use it, so your
privacy would not be affected)

Theo

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <1Dz*wBHRy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

The one thing I find utterly illogical about iOS is the global 'settings' app. On every other computer ever, settings live inside the app they are for. Maybe it's 'Preferences' or 'Properties' or 'Configuration' or something, but it's always there - eg macOS standardises how to find it.

the theory is that settings should be in one place, rather than as you describe, with different names in each app, in different places in each
of their user interfaces.

unfortunately, developers did not all agree, so now you have a mix of
where to find settings. sometimes it's in the app, sometimes it's in
settings and in some cases, both the app *and* settings.

But on iOS I have to come *out* of the app I want to change the settings
for, go back to the home screen, find the Settings app, and then find the
app I've just been in out of the hundred in the list. There seems to be no way for apps to say 'take me to the settings for this app' from inside the app.

there is, and some apps do exactly that. it's actually quite simple.

unfortunately, a lot of apps (not just ios) are written by people who
don't know what they're doing and not interested in doing quality work.

(which is not to say Android's hamburger menus are any more obvious, having their own flaws)

nothing is perfect.

Another one is how rotation lock only locks in portrait mode, and to lock in landscape you have to enable accessibility features and have the accessibility blob onscreen at all times. But then half of Apple's apps don't work in landscape. Still, give them time, it's only been 15 years.

some apps do not make sense for landscape mode. other apps do not make
sense in portrait mode.

games are the obvious example, with custom graphics for a specific
orientation.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 26/06/2022 14:12, Theo wrote:

Andy Hewitt <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:

[..]

It's recommended usage is to add the Bookmark from Safari onto the
Homescreen. Once this is done, it's just a matter of clicking onto it,
as with any app.

The UI within the browser is actually identical.

Does it ever re-authenticate with the phone? I think that's the concern:
you set it up on the iPad, and then after a while it says 'we haven't seen the phone lately, we sent it a code, please enter it here'. Which some may not cope with. If the phone is turned off because the battery is flat, it may well decide it hasn't checked in lately and needs to do that.

(in particular those who learn how to use things by rote - this button does this, etc - and taking them off-piste is a recipe for trouble)

Yes, it works the same way, as the apps only pretend to be a browser,
and use WhatsApp in Web mode.

My thought is that this might actually simplify things slightly, as
you've not needed to download another app, but the operation of WhatsApp
is exactly the same, albeit you might still have to occasionally
re-register it.

OTOH, it might also happen less often, as I think some of this might
have been caused by app updates.

It may be that the user does just have to learn the process of
registering the device on the account.

You are weird ;-).

I actually disagree. I don't think the UI is all that different between
them all nowadays. As for the Apple UI being illogical? Wow, that's
unusual (you are in danger of being accused of 'Apple Bashing' now :-)).

OK, here we go :-)

The one thing I find utterly illogical about iOS is the global 'settings' app. On every other computer ever, settings live inside the app they are for. Maybe it's 'Preferences' or 'Properties' or 'Configuration' or something, but it's always there - eg macOS standardises how to find it.

Not entirely sure all of that is down to Apple.

In both iOS and MacOS, software developers have been known to put their preferences in different places. I've seen third party Preference panels appearing in the MacOS System Preferences panel, as well as Preferences
in the apps themselves.

There's also some mixed usage in iOS too, where some apps do have their preferences within the apps, or they may put them into the Settings
panel - or even a bit of both.

Apple does seem more consistent, where all System Preferences are in the
System Preferences panel in MacOS, and all Apple stuff has preferences
in the Settings panel in iOS.

But on iOS I have to come *out* of the app I want to change the settings
for, go back to the home screen, find the Settings app, and then find the
app I've just been in out of the hundred in the list. There seems to be no way for apps to say 'take me to the settings for this app' from inside the app.

There are plenty of apps that actually do that, and have a 'back to...'
button to click on at the top left.

(which is not to say Android's hamburger menus are any more obvious, having their own flaws)

Another one is how rotation lock only locks in portrait mode, and to lock in landscape you have to enable accessibility features and have the accessibility blob onscreen at all times. But then half of Apple's apps don't work in landscape. Still, give them time, it's only been 15 years.

Which half? my iPad is pretty much permanently in landscape mode, I only
find the very occasional third party app doesn't work that way round
(Polarr is one, no idea why they think that's a good idea for a photo
editor).

Can't say I've ever noticed the lock feature, I've never used it.

</rant>

I'm actually annoyed, and concerned, about the 'do-gooders' trying to
open up the App store, and other ways Apple does use a closed system.
For me, this is one of the main reasons I do choose it over other
systems. I want things to be closed in, and difficult to hack, or sneak
in malicious code, or be able to invade my privacy. If they lose that,
then I would have a less compelling reason to stick with Apple.

The thing is, that's the exact source of the problem in this thread. If you could sideload, you could take the WhatsApp iOS .ipa, modify its flags to make it compatible with iPad, and then you could sideload it. You'd have to self-sign it but it would work. But, because Apple have locked that down, the only route to doing that is jailbreaking.

This is not hypothetical: there are tools to do exactly that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbfehig_NT4

(If sideloading was enabled, nobody is forcing you to use it, so your
privacy would not be affected)

Yeah, I'm not interested in Jailbreaking my iPad Pro.

(OK, so I know I've hacked my iMac, but that's an old device that I
prevented being retired, but my iPad is my main device now, and actually
still under AppleCare cover).

No, I'm happy with my choices in choosing Apple Products, and have been
for 28 years. None of this stuff is new, it's how they've been, like,
forever. I'm more amazed that people still whine about and act surprised
all the time.

--
Andy H

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

T i m wrote:

On 26/06/2022 07:51, Graham J wrote:

T i m wrote:

[snip]

So whilst she's back online for now, I'd like to know what happens to
take it offline and will continue to look into this phablet solution
for her.

Given that "everybody" says that Apple stuff "just works" I too would
be interested as to why her connection between the iPad and iPhone fails.

Whilst I too would be interested Graham, I have lived most my life in IT Support and only really got the opportunity to learn such things over
time. Eg. A customer has a quantity of people sitting about idle because their Stat-Mux link is down, they are rarely willing to let me faff
about trying to duplicate the problem, they just want it going and then
the kit left alone and I wasn't going to volunteer to go back after
hours. ;-)

What I learnt doing similar support was that if you didn't fully
understand what caused the problem it would come back in spades and bite
you in the bum. So I would always go back after hours to find out the
cause of that sort of problem.

Customers would therefore come back to me, because they knew I would fix
the problem properly.



--
Graham J

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Andy Hewitt wrote:

[snip]

No, absolutely, it's just that the UI logic IS very different to say
Android and for some of us we simply find the Apple UI illogical? It's
not even that we find the alternatives entirely intuitive, just that
they aren't counter intuitive somehow?

No computer interface is intuitive - they all have to be learnt.

--
Graham J

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Theo wrote:

[snip]

That's no standalone WhatsApp app for iPad so, outside of jailbreaking, you can't do it.

What is it about Whatsapp that can't be done by Apple-compatible apps?



--
Graham J

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

T i m wrote:

On 26/06/2022 09:51, Theo wrote:

Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:

Given that "everybody" says that Apple stuff "just works" I too would be >>> interested as to why her connection between the iPad and iPhone fails.
I think you need to go there and try to break it.  There may be some
unfortunate sequence of events that causes the problem.

It's not primarily Apple that's the problem, it's the clunky way WhatsApp
does it.

(it has its root in the way they do end to end encryption, as strictly
one device to one device communication)

I don't know what's breaking it, but simply having the phone have a flat
battery would do it.  Which is not unlikely if you never use the phone
for
anything and wouldn't notice it was low.

I think that is highly likely in this case Theo.

Mum sees her iPad as her primary device and so is fairly diligent in
keeping it charged. As you say, the only time she uses the phone is when
she can't get her iPad on Whatsapp and that could (as you suggest)
simply be because she's let the iPhone go flat. Doh!

Seems like a fundamental design problem somewhere.

What happens after the iPhone is recharged? Does WhatsApp then work?
Or dos it faul because Mum has broken something while the iPhone was flat?

Is there any reason why Mum can't have the iPhone permanently connected
to its charger?


--
Graham J

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:

Andy Hewitt wrote:

No, I didn’t. Tim wrote that (just to be clear).

[snip]

No, absolutely, it's just that the UI logic IS very different to say
Android and for some of us we simply find the Apple UI illogical? It's
not even that we find the alternatives entirely intuitive, just that
they aren't counter intuitive somehow?

No computer interface is intuitive - they all have to be learnt.

--
Andy H

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 26/06/2022 19:27, Graham J wrote:

<snip>

Mum sees her iPad as her primary device and so is fairly diligent in
keeping it charged. As you say, the only time she uses the phone is
when she can't get her iPad on Whatsapp and that could (as you
suggest) simply be because she's let the iPhone go flat. Doh!

Seems like a fundamental design problem somewhere.

It can appear to be a bit 'tender' sometimes I agree.

What happens after the iPhone is recharged?  Does WhatsApp then work? Or
dos it faul because Mum has broken something while the iPhone was flat?

I don't know and it would be difficult to find out, given the person
observing the situation (my 92 year old Mum).

Is there any reason why Mum can't have the iPhone permanently connected
to its charger?

Good point. I think the idea is that whilst she doesn't use the iPhone
as a phone, I think she sees it as a fallback device and can provide
Whatsapp when mobile?

I could suggest she leaves it on charge when she's staying home in my
sisters but again I don't really know how often it happens to know how
well that helps.

Cheers, T i m



--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 26/06/2022 19:21, Graham J wrote:

Theo wrote:

[snip]

That's no standalone WhatsApp app for iPad so, outside of
jailbreaking, you
can't do it.

What is it about Whatsapp that can't be done by Apple-compatible apps?

Potentially 'nothing', it's all about being compatible with the rest of
the world and on whatever hardware best suits your needs.

eg, I mainly use Whatsapp on my (Windows 10) PC but that is
authenticated via my Samsung Galaxy S7. The phone sometimes goes flat
and I don't generally have any disconnection issues here. However, I
would generally have the phone back on charge before running Whatsapp on
my PC.

Cheers, T i m

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <t9a8l2$3vufj$1@dont-email.me>, Graham J
<nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:

No computer interface is intuitive - they all have to be learnt.

some are, although they are generally single purpose devices.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 26/06/2022 19:24, Graham J wrote:

T i m wrote:

On 26/06/2022 07:51, Graham J wrote:

T i m wrote:

[snip]

So whilst she's back online for now, I'd like to know what happens
to take it offline and will continue to look into this phablet
solution for her.

Given that "everybody" says that Apple stuff "just works" I too would
be interested as to why her connection between the iPad and iPhone
fails.

Whilst I too would be interested Graham, I have lived most my life in
IT Support and only really got the opportunity to learn such things
over time. Eg. A customer has a quantity of people sitting about idle
because their Stat-Mux link is down, they are rarely willing to let me
faff about trying to duplicate the problem, they just want it going
and then the kit left alone and I wasn't going to volunteer to go back
after hours. ;-)

What I learnt doing similar support was that if you didn't fully
understand what caused the problem it would come back in spades and bite
you in the bum.

Then if that were the case then you would start to paint a bigger /
clearer picture?

  So I would always go back after hours to find out the

cause of that sort of problem.

I worked for a Co and had a life. ;-)

Customers would therefore come back to me, because they knew I would fix
the problem properly.

If something was black and white / predictable then 'of course' we would
do what it took (and I never walked away from a single fault in my 20
years in the field). Like, putting a data-scope on a link and 'catching'
the character sequence that caused our kit to lock up (predictably) when
the customer assured us that it wasn't present.

Or seeing a customer shuffle round a computer room, touch a reset switch
on the front of our kit and knock it out. Us trying similar back at base
and finding 'some' boxes didn't have a efficiently grounded front plate
and the static was being taken directly to the PCB and not ground. An additional grounding wire between the back of the reset switch and the
chassis soon fixed that (much to the discomfort of the customers arm). ;-)

But in most cases we simply weren't allowed to be on the customers
premises if there was a fault that only showed up every couple of
months, or certainly not until it was either more predictable / regular
and any logs had shown nothing (especially the MOD sites).

Also, the issue has really only started to be an issue since Mum has
moved in with my sister and the semi tekky nephew hasn't popped in for a
while.

As it happens with a couple of small prompts Mum managed to sort it
herself last night and so *maybe* she will be able to help herself if /
when it happens again. If it was happening very regularly then of course
we would see what we could do to look into it.

And part of that was why I asked here ... in case someone had seen
similar and determined a cause ... or if no one had, what might be put
into place to make the chances of it happening (for whatever reason it happened) less likely, like the phablet. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Andy Hewitt <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:

On 26/06/2022 14:12, Theo wrote:

Another one is how rotation lock only locks in portrait mode, and to lock in
landscape you have to enable accessibility features and have the accessibility blob onscreen at all times. But then half of Apple's apps don't work in landscape. Still, give them time, it's only been 15 years.

Which half? my iPad is pretty much permanently in landscape mode, I only
find the very occasional third party app doesn't work that way round
(Polarr is one, no idea why they think that's a good idea for a photo editor).

Of the default apps on iOS:

Clock, Weather, Stocks, App Store, Podcasts, Health, Home, Wallet, Find My, Shortcuts, Translate, Tips, Voice Memos, Compass, Music, FaceTime and Watch don't work in landscape

Calendar, Photos, Camera, Calculator, Maps, Reminders, Notes, Settings,
Mail, Messages, Safari, Files, Contacts do support landscape.


It should be said that some of the portrait apps I never use, so I'm only
going by the launch screen - some of them want me to accept T&C or whatever
on a portrait-only screen (and I'm not accepting T&C so can go no further). Without delving further I couldn't say if they do later on in the app - I'd have thought Facetime would support landscape for example, but at least the intro screen doesn't. But even basic apps I do use like App Store and
Weather don't do landscape.

No, I'm happy with my choices in choosing Apple Products, and have been
for 28 years. None of this stuff is new, it's how they've been, like, forever. I'm more amazed that people still whine about and act surprised
all the time.

It is frustrating when there's a simple thing you want to do (install
WhatsApp on a cellular iPad, like you can on an Android tablet) and It Can't
Be Done. For no good reason, It Just Can't.

Theo

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Theo wrote:

[snip]

Of the default apps on iOS:

Clock, Weather, Stocks, App Store, Podcasts, Health, Home, Wallet, Find My, Shortcuts, Translate, Tips, Voice Memos, Compass, Music, FaceTime and Watch don't work in landscape

Google Streetview opens in landscape mode, but occupies only the centre
third of the available screen. Rotating the iPad to portrait the app
then rotates, nearly filling the screen. But in neither case does it
grow to fill the screen as I would like it to, like other apps.

Reolink app (for IP camera) displays OK in landscape, but has to be
manually rotated to portrait to give all its menu options (lights,
settings).




--
Graham J

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 26/06/2022 22:02, Theo wrote:

Andy Hewitt <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:

On 26/06/2022 14:12, Theo wrote:

Another one is how rotation lock only locks in portrait mode, and to lock in
landscape you have to enable accessibility features and have the
accessibility blob onscreen at all times. But then half of Apple's apps >>> don't work in landscape. Still, give them time, it's only been 15 years. >>

Which half? my iPad is pretty much permanently in landscape mode, I only
find the very occasional third party app doesn't work that way round
(Polarr is one, no idea why they think that's a good idea for a photo
editor).

Of the default apps on iOS:

Clock, Weather, Stocks, App Store, Podcasts, Health, Home, Wallet, Find My, Shortcuts, Translate, Tips, Voice Memos, Compass, Music, FaceTime and Watch don't work in landscape.

They do on my iPad here (we are discussing the use of an iPad BTW).

Of course some of those don't exist on an iPad, but everything there
that's on the iPad, does work in Landscape mode (I just tried them all).

As for on the iPhone, that's not a bother for me, I use that in portrait
mode mostly, as that's how it happens to fit into my hand the best. The exceptions are the odd game, or when I take a landscape mode photo.

Calendar, Photos, Camera, Calculator, Maps, Reminders, Notes, Settings,
Mail, Messages, Safari, Files, Contacts do support landscape.

Yeah, they all can benefit from it in fact the calculator turns into a scientific calculator in landscape mode.

Many of the apps do have contextual changes depending on orientation.

It should be said that some of the portrait apps I never use, so I'm only going by the launch screen - some of them want me to accept T&C or whatever on a portrait-only screen (and I'm not accepting T&C so can go no further). Without delving further I couldn't say if they do later on in the app - I'd have thought Facetime would support landscape for example, but at least the intro screen doesn't. But even basic apps I do use like App Store and Weather don't do landscape.

So, how does it limit their usability?

For most of these, an iPhone is usually held in the hand, in portrait orientation, that just makes ergonomic sense.

No, I'm happy with my choices in choosing Apple Products, and have been
for 28 years. None of this stuff is new, it's how they've been, like,
forever. I'm more amazed that people still whine about and act surprised
all the time.

It is frustrating when there's a simple thing you want to do (install WhatsApp on a cellular iPad, like you can on an Android tablet) and It Can't Be Done. For no good reason, It Just Can't.

But you can use WhatsApp on an iPad. I do. Indeed, mine is a WiFi only
model, and it still works.

Just go buy an Android if it works better for you! Along with the
malware and privacy protection software it'll need too ;-). It could be
cheaper too.

--
Andy H

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:

Andy Hewitt wrote:

[snip]

No, absolutely, it's just that the UI logic IS very different to say
Android and for some of us we simply find the Apple UI illogical? It's
not even that we find the alternatives entirely intuitive, just that
they aren't counter intuitive somehow?

No computer interface is intuitive - they all have to be learnt.

It didn't take me long to learn the 'desktop' interface of OS6 in the
1980s - without recourse to the training video or any manuals.


--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 25. Jun 2022 at 22:32:23 CEST, "T i m" <eternal@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

I installed Telegram a while back as I was trying to use it for
notifications from my Home Automation (Home Assistant) system. I think
it worked and a few mates have popped up on Telegram but none of them so
far have used it?

Heavy Telegram user here.
Been using it for years and can highly recommend it.
Easy to use, native Apps for iPhone, iPad, Android, Mac, Windows, Linux,
...
You can do voice calls, send attachments, ...
No hassle if you change your phone or get a new number.

(Plus: I never touch anything from meta when it can be avoided. But that´s just me :-)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 27/06/2022 09:24, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:

Andy Hewitt wrote:

[snip]

No, absolutely, it's just that the UI logic IS very different to say
Android and for some of us we simply find the Apple UI illogical? It's >>>> not even that we find the alternatives entirely intuitive, just that
they aren't counter intuitive somehow?

No computer interface is intuitive - they all have to be learnt.

It didn't take me long to learn the 'desktop' interface of OS6 in the
1980s - without recourse to the training video or any manuals.

How do you think you would cope with macOS Monterey Version 12.4? (the
current OS)

Btw, I can use WhatsApp on my iMac, iPad Pro and my iPhone SE.

--
Kind regards,
David

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2022-06-26, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

It is frustrating when there's a simple thing you want to do (install WhatsApp on a cellular iPad, like you can on an Android tablet) and It Can't Be Done. For no good reason, It Just Can't.

I very occasionally use Whatsapp as certain family members insist on
using it. The iPad beta app testers group is not accepting new
people right now when I enquired yesterday but the web interface works
OK as long as my iPhone is on.

--
Cheers, Alan

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Am 27.06.22 um 10:53 schrieb Bernd Froehlich:

On 25. Jun 2022 at 22:32:23 CEST, "T i m" <eternal@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

I installed Telegram a while back as I was trying to use it for
notifications from my Home Automation (Home Assistant) system. I think
it worked and a few mates have popped up on Telegram but none of them so
far have used it?

Heavy Telegram user here.
Been using it for years and can highly recommend it.
Easy to use, native Apps for iPhone, iPad, Android, Mac, Windows, Linux,
...
You can do voice calls, send attachments, ...
No hassle if you change your phone or get a new number.

(Plus: I never touch anything from meta when it can be avoided. But that´s just me :-)

There are many others that can do the same easily and do not spy on me
like Telegram does.

--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Am 27.06.22 um 15:54 schrieb David Brooks:

On 27/06/2022 09:24, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

It didn't take me long to learn the 'desktop' interface of OS6 in the
1980s - without recourse to the training video or any manuals.

How do you think you would cope with macOS Monterey Version 12.4? (the current OS)

Nobody has to "learn" an OS per se.
In case you know how to operate a computer you can use them all.

I use Mac, Windows, several Linux versions, iOS and Android. With the
exception of how to install Linux some 15 years ago I hardly ever
"learnt" anything about the OSs.

In case of question DuckDuckGo is my friend.


--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 27/06/2022 16:19, Joerg Lorenz wrote:

Am 27.06.22 um 15:54 schrieb David Brooks:

On 27/06/2022 09:24, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

It didn't take me long to learn the 'desktop' interface of OS6 in the
1980s - without recourse to the training video or any manuals.

How do you think you would cope with macOS Monterey Version 12.4? (the
current OS)

Nobody has to "learn" an OS per se.
In case you know how to operate a computer you can use them all.

I use Mac, Windows, several Linux versions, iOS and Android. With the exception of how to install Linux some 15 years ago I hardly ever
"learnt" anything about the OSs.

In case of question DuckDuckGo is my friend.

I'm much like you, Joerg, with the exception of Android! ;-)

I don't understand why folk with Apple computers do not run THE most
up-to-date operating system. Monterey does everything I ask it to do.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Am 27.06.22 um 17:26 schrieb David Brooks:

On 27/06/2022 16:19, Joerg Lorenz wrote:

I use Mac, Windows, several Linux versions, iOS and Android. With the
exception of how to install Linux some 15 years ago I hardly ever
"learnt" anything about the OSs.

In case of question DuckDuckGo is my friend.

I'm much like you, Joerg, with the exception of Android! ;-)

I don't understand why folk with Apple computers do not run THE most up-to-date operating system. Monterey does everything I ask it to do.

Some users still have old 32bit-software in use they need and cannot
switch.


--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Am 27.06.22 um 18:42 schrieb David Brooks:

On 27/06/2022 16:47, Joerg Lorenz wrote:

Some users still have old 32bit-software in use they need and cannot
switch.

Thank you.

Can you, or someone else, demonstrate something that can be done using
old 32 bit software which cannot be accomplished with up-to-date software?

Unfortunately I can't. But in the German speaking NGs are several users
that deal with this issue. IIRC it is in the area of music and design.


--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 27/06/2022 16:47, Joerg Lorenz wrote:

Am 27.06.22 um 17:26 schrieb David Brooks:

On 27/06/2022 16:19, Joerg Lorenz wrote:

I use Mac, Windows, several Linux versions, iOS and Android. With the
exception of how to install Linux some 15 years ago I hardly ever
"learnt" anything about the OSs.

In case of question DuckDuckGo is my friend.

I'm much like you, Joerg, with the exception of Android! ;-)

I don't understand why folk with Apple computers do not run THE most
up-to-date operating system. Monterey does everything I ask it to do.

Some users still have old 32bit-software in use they need and cannot
switch.

Thank you.

Can you, or someone else, demonstrate something that can be done using
old 32 bit software which cannot be accomplished with up-to-date software?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Andy Hewitt <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:

Am 27.06.22 um 18:42 schrieb David Brooks:

On 27/06/2022 16:47, Joerg Lorenz wrote:

Some users still have old 32bit-software in use they need and cannot
switch.

Thank you.

Can you, or someone else, demonstrate something that can be done using
old 32 bit software which cannot be accomplished with up-to-date software? >>

Unfortunately I can't. But in the German speaking NGs are several users
that deal with this issue. IIRC it is in the area of music and design.

Not as significant nowadays, but MacSOUP probably still has a following. I’m sure there’s a few here that keep the older OS’s just for that.

I know of several people who use MacSOUP (and other 32 bit apps - not just newsreaders). Why is it necessary to demonstrate to some ignorant village
idiot why people use them. Each to his/her own.

--
Cheers, Alan

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:

Am 27.06.22 um 18:42 schrieb David Brooks:

On 27/06/2022 16:47, Joerg Lorenz wrote:

Some users still have old 32bit-software in use they need and cannot
switch.

Thank you.

Can you, or someone else, demonstrate something that can be done using
old 32 bit software which cannot be accomplished with up-to-date software?

Unfortunately I can't. But in the German speaking NGs are several users
that deal with this issue. IIRC it is in the area of music and design.

Not as significant nowadays, but MacSOUP probably still has a following.
I’m sure there’s a few here that keep the older OS’s just for that.

--
Andy H

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Alan B <alanrichardbarker@nospamgmail.com.invalid> wrote:

Andy Hewitt <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:

Am 27.06.22 um 18:42 schrieb David Brooks:

On 27/06/2022 16:47, Joerg Lorenz wrote:

Some users still have old 32bit-software in use they need and cannot >>>>> switch.

Thank you.

Can you, or someone else, demonstrate something that can be done using >>>> old 32 bit software which cannot be accomplished with up-to-date software? >>>

Unfortunately I can't. But in the German speaking NGs are several users
that deal with this issue. IIRC it is in the area of music and design.

Not as significant nowadays, but MacSOUP probably still has a following.
I’m sure there’s a few here that keep the older OS’s just for that.

I know of several people who use MacSOUP (and other 32 bit apps - not just newsreaders). Why is it necessary to demonstrate to some ignorant village idiot why people use them. Each to his/her own.

Fair enough :-)

To be honest, I still keep thinking about getting an old G4 box, with OS9,
just so I could play Chuck Yeager and Submarine Commander (can’t remember what that was called exactly now) again ;-).


--
Andy H

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Alan B <alanrichardbarker@nospamgmail.com.invalid> wrote:

Andy Hewitt <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:

[snip]

To be honest, I still keep thinking about getting an old G4 box, with OS9, >> just so I could play Chuck Yeager and Submarine Commander (can’t remember >> what that was called exactly now) again ;-).

I’ve managed to get OS 9 sort of running as a UTM virtual machine - but that may be the subject of a future topic here!

I did find that there was something about the graphics in Chuck Yeager, it
had to run on a native machine. It wouldn’t work properly even in Rosetta.
So I wouldn’t be hopeful in a VM.

--
Andy H

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Andy Hewitt <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:

[snip]

To be honest, I still keep thinking about getting an old G4 box, with OS9, just so I could play Chuck Yeager and Submarine Commander (can’t remember what that was called exactly now) again ;-).

I’ve managed to get OS 9 sort of running as a UTM virtual machine - but that may be the subject of a future topic here!

--
Cheers, Alan

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Andy Hewitt wrote:

[snip]

To be honest, I still keep thinking about getting an old G4 box, with OS9, just so I could play Chuck Yeager and Submarine Commander (can’t remember what that was called exactly now) again ;-).

I have one here - no monitor just a Power Mac G4 with a keyboard, no mouse.

Needs the user files to be erased, and the OS to be re-installed - I
have the disk for 9.2.1

I'm near Thetford in Norfolk - could you collect it?

Would it be worth £25 to you?


--
Graham J

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:

Andy Hewitt wrote:

[snip]

To be honest, I still keep thinking about getting an old G4 box, with OS9, >> just so I could play Chuck Yeager and Submarine Commander (can’t remember >> what that was called exactly now) again ;-).

I have one here - no monitor just a Power Mac G4 with a keyboard, no mouse.

Needs the user files to be erased, and the OS to be re-installed - I
have the disk for 9.2.1

I'm near Thetford in Norfolk - could you collect it?

Would it be worth £25 to you?

I would love to, but no, thank you. I’m in Yorkshire, it’d cost more in fuel than it’s worth. And I haven’t cleared it with the boss either :-O.

So tempting though.

Cheers.

--
Andy H

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Am 27.06.22 um 21:38 schrieb Andy Hewitt:

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:

Am 27.06.22 um 18:42 schrieb David Brooks:

On 27/06/2022 16:47, Joerg Lorenz wrote:

Some users still have old 32bit-software in use they need and cannot
switch.

Thank you.

Can you, or someone else, demonstrate something that can be done using
old 32 bit software which cannot be accomplished with up-to-date software? >>

Unfortunately I can't. But in the German speaking NGs are several users
that deal with this issue. IIRC it is in the area of music and design.

Not as significant nowadays, but MacSOUP probably still has a following. I’m sure there’s a few here that keep the older OS’s just for that.

I think there are alternatives to MacSoup. There are other programs that
do not have 64-bit-successors or viable solutions.



--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 28/06/2022 08:00, Joerg Lorenz wrote:

Am 27.06.22 um 21:38 schrieb Andy Hewitt:

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:

Am 27.06.22 um 18:42 schrieb David Brooks:

On 27/06/2022 16:47, Joerg Lorenz wrote:

Some users still have old 32bit-software in use they need and cannot >>>>> switch.

Thank you.

Can you, or someone else, demonstrate something that can be done using >>>> old 32 bit software which cannot be accomplished with up-to-date software? >>>

Unfortunately I can't. But in the German speaking NGs are several users
that deal with this issue. IIRC it is in the area of music and design.

Not as significant nowadays, but MacSOUP probably still has a following.
I’m sure there’s a few here that keep the older OS’s just for that.

I think there are alternatives to MacSoup.

Thunderbird (free) works well, as does UseNapp https://www.usenapp.com

There are other programs that
do not have 64-bit-successors or viable solutions.

I find it hard to believe that there are old facilities which cannot be replicated with up-to-date equipment and software.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:

Am 27.06.22 um 21:38 schrieb Andy Hewitt:

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:

Am 27.06.22 um 18:42 schrieb David Brooks:

On 27/06/2022 16:47, Joerg Lorenz wrote:

Some users still have old 32bit-software in use they need and cannot >>>>> switch.

Thank you.

Can you, or someone else, demonstrate something that can be done using >>>> old 32 bit software which cannot be accomplished with up-to-date software? >>>

Unfortunately I can't. But in the German speaking NGs are several users
that deal with this issue. IIRC it is in the area of music and design.

Not as significant nowadays, but MacSOUP probably still has a following.
I’m sure there’s a few here that keep the older OS’s just for that.

I think there are alternatives to MacSoup. There are other programs that
do not have 64-bit-successors or viable solutions.

It was simply an example. Of course there are alternatives, I use them
myself. I doubt there’s many programs that have not been upgraded, or replaced, if they had sufficient demand, and justification for the
development, then they’d exist. Certainly enough time has passed now for
that to happen.

Sadly, some of the developers simply didn’t have the resources to develop their software.

But what are we to expect, should be still just be using the old 6502
chips?

--
Andy H

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 28/06/2022 16:08, Andy Hewitt wrote:

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:

Am 27.06.22 um 21:38 schrieb Andy Hewitt:

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:

Am 27.06.22 um 18:42 schrieb David Brooks:

On 27/06/2022 16:47, Joerg Lorenz wrote:

Some users still have old 32bit-software in use they need and cannot >>>>>> switch.

Thank you.

Can you, or someone else, demonstrate something that can be done using >>>>> old 32 bit software which cannot be accomplished with up-to-date software?

Unfortunately I can't. But in the German speaking NGs are several users >>>> that deal with this issue. IIRC it is in the area of music and design.

Not as significant nowadays, but MacSOUP probably still has a following. >>> I’m sure there’s a few here that keep the older OS’s just for that. >>

I think there are alternatives to MacSoup. There are other programs that
do not have 64-bit-successors or viable solutions.

It was simply an example. Of course there are alternatives, I use them myself. I doubt there’s many programs that have not been upgraded, or replaced, if they had sufficient demand, and justification for the development, then they’d exist. Certainly enough time has passed now for that to happen.

I agree.

Sadly, some of the developers simply didn’t have the resources to develop their software.

But what are we to expect, should be still just be using the old 6502
chips?

No. Apple employs some of the best brains in the world. Anyone who
chooses to use an 'old' operating system in preference to the most up-
to-date 'proven' software, currently macOS Monterey Version 12.4, needs
to revise their thinking.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Andy Hewitt <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:

I think there are alternatives to MacSoup. There are other programs that
do not have 64-bit-successors or viable solutions.

It was simply an example. Of course there are alternatives, I use them myself. I doubt there’s many programs that have not been upgraded, or replaced, if they had sufficient demand, and justification for the development, then they’d exist. Certainly enough time has passed now for that to happen.

Sadly, some of the developers simply didn’t have the resources to develop their software.

But what are we to expect, should be still just be using the old 6502
chips?

Yes a lot of 32 bit apps are now unusable since Mojave. Going back to
Classic Mac OS, I remember Apple’s CyberDog which ran under the I’ll fated OpenDoc environment. It was a combined email & news client, web browser and probably other things too.

--
Cheers, Alan

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Alan B <alanrichardbarker@nospamgmail.com.invalid> wrote:

Andy Hewitt <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:

I think there are alternatives to MacSoup. There are other programs that >>> do not have 64-bit-successors or viable solutions.

It was simply an example. Of course there are alternatives, I use them
myself. I doubt there’s many programs that have not been upgraded, or
replaced, if they had sufficient demand, and justification for the
development, then they’d exist. Certainly enough time has passed now for >> that to happen.

Sadly, some of the developers simply didn’t have the resources to develop >> their software.

But what are we to expect, should be still just be using the old 6502
chips?

Yes a lot of 32 bit apps are now unusable since Mojave. Going back to
Classic Mac OS, I remember Apple’s CyberDog which ran under the I’ll fated
OpenDoc environment. It was a combined email & news client, web browser and probably other things too.

I meant to say they were not reprogrammed for 64 bit compatibility after Mojave!

--
Cheers, Alan

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Alan B <alanrichardbarker@nospamgmail.com.invalid> wrote:

Andy Hewitt <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:

I think there are alternatives to MacSoup. There are other programs that >>> do not have 64-bit-successors or viable solutions.

It was simply an example. Of course there are alternatives, I use them
myself. I doubt there’s many programs that have not been upgraded, or
replaced, if they had sufficient demand, and justification for the
development, then they’d exist. Certainly enough time has passed now for >> that to happen.

Sadly, some of the developers simply didn’t have the resources to develop >> their software.

But what are we to expect, should be still just be using the old 6502
chips?

Yes a lot of 32 bit apps are now unusable since Mojave. Going back to
Classic Mac OS, I remember Apple’s CyberDog which ran under the I’ll fated
OpenDoc environment. It was a combined email & news client, web browser and probably other things too.

Yeah, that last bit was just entirely sarcasm ;-)

Oh, I do miss CyberDod though, shame that didn’t go any further. OpenDoc
was also a great concept, poorly executed.

--
Andy H

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <t9fduo$1545f$1@dont-email.me>, Andy Hewitt <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:

Oh, I do miss CyberDod though, shame that didn¹t go any further. OpenDoc
was also a great concept, poorly executed.

it was deliberately killed by microsoft.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 27/06/2022 09:24, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:

Andy Hewitt wrote:

[snip]

No, absolutely, it's just that the UI logic IS very different to say
Android and for some of us we simply find the Apple UI illogical? It's >>>> not even that we find the alternatives entirely intuitive, just that
they aren't counter intuitive somehow?

No computer interface is intuitive - they all have to be learnt.

It didn't take me long to learn the 'desktop' interface of OS6 in the
1980s - without recourse to the training video or any manuals.

Quite, so you learnt it (without any training or resorting to any
instructions) because you were able to because it was intuitive to some
degree.

My test of a well designed product or application is the same as yours,
'can I use it easily without reading the instructions'?

I am re-learning my understanding of what's considered 'intuitive' as I
believe the Mrs is showing sings of some level of dementia.

For 30 of the years we have been she's been sharp and intelligent and
was able to see and understand things and situations ... but now it's
like living with a toddler, many things seem new / unknown to her and
there is little point trying to get her to re-learn anything as she will
have forgotten it within seconds.

So, she used to watch TV on her PC via Topfield PVR and video capture
card. Launch the capture card app, turn on the Topfield with it's remote
and minimise the app on the ads to play a game or check her mail. Then I observed her confusing the role of the mouse on the PC with the remote
on the PVR so tried to simplify the solution by using SichboPVR
(centralised TV Tuner / server / PVR) so she only needed the one input
tool, the mouse. Then we had a whole new set of issues that she wasn't
able to learn from by exploring (and we 'learn' an intuitive UI by
exploring > experience > memory) because she would forget what she did a
short time later. So, I worked with the Dev and we renamed the 'Library'
to 'Recordings' because to her, a Library was where you want to borrow a
book, not a collection of audio video files. We replaced the age old AV
control symbols with the words (like Pay / Pause / Stop) because she
didn't have to remember / translate those every time.

She sill doesn't really 'understand' the relationship between the three
columns displaying the recordings, the left being a menu of the high
level list, the middle being the content of any selected list and the
right being the specifics of the entry selected in the list. To her it
seems it's just the same thing in three places.

So, it's obvious that depending on ones experience and so / then how we
see things plus how easily we can learn and then retain the process /
outcome, that different UI's can be more or less logical / intuitive to
us than others.

Ignoring the known issues with any non Windows OS trying to function
with hardware primarily designed for a Window-centric world, or
sub-optimal variants of applications derived as a 'secondary' offering
to the Windows one, things like a menu that isn't attached to the actual application isn't intuitive to me. Or as mentioned elsewhere, 'settings'
that are sometimes here and sometimes there.

This isn't an observation on the technical abilities of each OS but the
ease of use of the UI as seen by different people.

I have never really had any issues finding my way round and making it do
what I want with Windows (from V3), Linux (GNOME, KDE, Cinnamon, MATE
DEs) and whilst I can generally get there on Apple OS / iOS, I find it
far less logical than I do pretty well any other.

*Maybe* that was because I first learned MSDOS then went to Windows on
DOS and that Windows works like a graphical interface to DOS? <shrug>

But them I'm someone who can 'see' machines like an exploded diagram but
can't really code in spite of trying over many years. Why was I able to
build a rowing boat in woodwork class when I was 15 (with no training)
when my classmates were struggling to make bookends?

Answer, we all have different abilities and can see / do things
different ways and just because one person finds something easy /
logical, doesn't mean everyone else can / should. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <3Dz*BhZRy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

One thing I'm sad about iOS 7's rejection of skeumorphism is that the skeumorphism was a good on-ramp for people to learn how to use the iPhone: the icons looked more like offline concepts: Contacts looked like a paper addressbook; Game Center had pictures of chess, baseball, etc rather than a selection of coloured blobs. Presumably Apple assumed that most people already had a phone by that point so the on-ramp wasn't needed, but it makes it harder for those who haven't used one before.

that was not done for any sort of on-ramp.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

T i m <eternal@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

My test of a well designed product or application is the same as yours,
'can I use it easily without reading the instructions'?

I am re-learning my understanding of what's considered 'intuitive' as I believe the Mrs is showing sings of some level of dementia.

Very sorry to hear that :(

She sill doesn't really 'understand' the relationship between the three columns displaying the recordings, the left being a menu of the high
level list, the middle being the content of any selected list and the
right being the specifics of the entry selected in the list. To her it
seems it's just the same thing in three places.

So, it's obvious that depending on ones experience and so / then how we
see things plus how easily we can learn and then retain the process / outcome, that different UI's can be more or less logical / intuitive to
us than others.

I'd describe 'intuitive' as a marketing buzzword meaning 'it works like something you've seen before'. A dial telephone wasn't 'intuitive', because there wasn't anything similar that people previously used (I think) -
somebody needed to show you. A push button telephone might have been 'intuitive' to somebody who has used a calculator before (or vice versa), because many of the ideas are transferable from one to the other.

So, for example, when faced with a device that has three buttons and a small display on it, if you've seen enough of these before you might guess that
one button is '+', one is '-', and one is 'advance' (to the next menu,
option, whatever). Perhaps further actions are achieved by holding down buttons. Most people will need to look at the instructions, but if you are familiar with how things like central heating programmers are typically operated you can perhaps operate it without instructions. It is only 'intuitive' to those people who have used something like this before and
have built up a model of how small-display widgets often operate.

I'd say the same about desktop operating systems. First of all you need to learn how the mouse works, but once you've worked that out you know you're supposed to click on things. But the idea of a menu bar is not obvious -
that clicking on 'File' brings up a list of things to do with files (if you even know what a file is). It's only if you already know that computers
have menus containing lists of actions you can do does a File menu start to
be an obvious thing.

One thing I'm sad about iOS 7's rejection of skeumorphism is that the skeumorphism was a good on-ramp for people to learn how to use the iPhone:
the icons looked more like offline concepts: Contacts looked like a paper addressbook; Game Center had pictures of chess, baseball, etc rather than a selection of coloured blobs. Presumably Apple assumed that most people
already had a phone by that point so the on-ramp wasn't needed, but it makes
it harder for those who haven't used one before.

Theo

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 29/06/2022 22:43, Theo wrote:

T i m <eternal@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

My test of a well designed product or application is the same as yours,
'can I use it easily without reading the instructions'?

I am re-learning my understanding of what's considered 'intuitive' as I
believe the Mrs is showing sings of some level of dementia.

Very sorry to hear that :(

Thanks for that Theo. It's very difficult for me as I'm not particularly 'sensitive' or 'accommodating' with such things. I'm used to dealing
with adults (IT Trainer for 7 years) where in general (especially those
there specifically to learn more technical stuff) they just take, absorb
and run with the information they are given. And I have always been
happy to give anyone the time / detail / level they need to try to
understand something but in this case, it's fairly futile because in the
main it doesn't work / stick. That said, if you can break every
instruction down into the smallest steps (and sometimes that's
impossible, like 'could you get me the screwdriver that's probably on
the right hand side of the wooden storage unit to the left in the
leanto', there is too much information there for her to remember (or
'picture') but any less information won't help her looking everywhere
else other than where the screwdriver is sitting. So if I'm on a mission
(as we have been over the last few weeks clearing Mums house / garage / workshop / shed / loft) I simply don't have the time nor the patience to
wait so it ends up with her just sitting down and watching me work. I
can't even invite any conversation because everything takes several
loops before she gets the answers she needs (which often aren't answers
to the questions she's asked) and again, that all takes time we simply
don't have. I can't leave her at home because I worry she'll fall or
hurt herself and she likes to be with me in general and to make sure I'm
ok. If something should happen I'm not sure she'd have the wherewithal
to phone for help.

It is very very sad to see how confused and frustrated she gets and I've
lost my life partner.

She sill doesn't really 'understand' the relationship between the three
columns displaying the recordings, the left being a menu of the high
level list, the middle being the content of any selected list and the
right being the specifics of the entry selected in the list. To her it
seems it's just the same thing in three places.

So, it's obvious that depending on ones experience and so / then how we
see things plus how easily we can learn and then retain the process /
outcome, that different UI's can be more or less logical / intuitive to
us than others.

I'd describe 'intuitive' as a marketing buzzword meaning 'it works like something you've seen before'. A dial telephone wasn't 'intuitive', because there wasn't anything similar that people previously used (I think) - somebody needed to show you. A push button telephone might have been 'intuitive' to somebody who has used a calculator before (or vice versa), because many of the ideas are transferable from one to the other.

I agree to a degree (and mentioned such in a reply somewhere).

However, I think I'd mix that with 'is it explorable' and if it is, then
it allows learning by experiment in which case it stands more of a
chance of the goal being achieved intuitively (even if it's not in the
most literal of definitions) versus having to be learned from
instruction or assistance.

Eg, You can get Fisher Price play-sets that include an old rotary
telephone dial and I have seen babies with no level of instruction
action the dial as if they were dialling a number. Now the chances are
they don't think they are establishing a voice link but the action or
turning the dial against a spring and watching it return is something
that can be completed by experiment.

If the dial was locked until you pressed a hidden button round the back
the 'chances are' the baby would never link those two actions
specifically, even if they stumbled upon it accidentally. We on the
other hand may well visually explore the unit, see a button that seems
to align with the back of the dial and see if it was linked.

So, for example, when faced with a device that has three buttons and a small display on it, if you've seen enough of these before you might guess that
one button is '+', one is '-', and one is 'advance' (to the next menu, option, whatever). Perhaps further actions are achieved by holding down buttons.

Sure.

Most people will need to look at the instructions, but if you are
familiar with how things like central heating programmers are typically operated you can perhaps operate it without instructions. It is only 'intuitive' to those people who have used something like this before and
have built up a model of how small-display widgets often operate.

True ... if you don't have an inquisitive mind and tenacious attitude,
assume that there could be some extra functionality by doing different
things. Like turning on/off smart devices by long holding the power
button. You might hold the button long enough to turn it on or off
because the developer would have worked out what sort of time people
might accept for that but not wanting them to accidentally reset the
device by making that action take so long you would be unlikely to do it
'by accident'.

Like when you press someones doorbell but don't hear anything you might
be tempted to press it harder, longer or wait to see if anyone comes to
the door, along with allowing for the fact it doesn't work (by flapping
the letterbox) or assuming they are out / out of earshot (back garden /
shed / garage).

My Dad *wrote* (a letter) to a Phone Co asking how to turn on his new
mobile phone (2s press) because of the reason you gave and because he
didn't have the approach I gave.

I'd say the same about desktop operating systems. First of all you need to learn how the mouse works, but once you've worked that out you know you're supposed to click on things. But the idea of a menu bar is not obvious - that clicking on 'File' brings up a list of things to do with files (if you even know what a file is). It's only if you already know that computers
have menus containing lists of actions you can do does a File menu start to be an obvious thing.

Well of course we have to assume a certain starting point but once we
have, I really do believe it's down to explorability. So say you start a Windows app the chances are you can explore the menu bar because it will
be attached to the app and you can read the options. Do the same on iOS
and you may be left in the lurch because you don't notice the menu has
changed and now represents the app in focus?

One thing I'm sad about iOS 7's rejection of skeumorphism is that the skeumorphism was a good on-ramp for people to learn how to use the iPhone: the icons looked more like offline concepts: Contacts looked like a paper addressbook; Game Center had pictures of chess, baseball, etc rather than a selection of coloured blobs. Presumably Apple assumed that most people already had a phone by that point so the on-ramp wasn't needed, but it makes it harder for those who haven't used one before.

Similar with the Eldy app:

http://www.eldy.eu/en/

Non computer explored people may not be ready to add an email address
and subject before writing their 'letter'. They would write the letter
and *then* put it in an envelope and *then* put the address on.

I see this disjointed menu thing tripping the Mrs up over and over
because obviously her ability to note / absorb / visually explore a
scene is now impaired.

Many a time I have asked her to do the simplest of tasks and it looks
like she's staring at the object in question but simply doesn't see it
because she doesn't recognise the thing from my instruction and / or
what she's looking at doesn't jump out in context, nor does relating
anything to any previous activity.

'Sorry, no, could you get the box *you* put there 5 minutes ago and that
I said I would be needing soon ...'

A good analogy is Alexa (or the early Alexa) V Google Home. Ask Google
Home the name of the current Queen of England then ask a supplementary
question requiring the retention of context like 'and what's the name of
her husband?'. GH will say 'Prince Charles' and Alex will say she
doesn't understand the question. My wife is now Alexa and how I see many
people struggling with many UI's, simply because they don't have the
right approach (experimentation).

Them: I don't know what to do?
Me: What have you tried?

Cheers, T i m


--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

T i m wrote:

[snip]

It is very very sad to see how confused and frustrated she gets and I've
lost my life partner.

That's very sad. How old is she?

My Dad *wrote* (a letter) to a Phone Co asking how to turn on his new
mobile phone (2s press) because of the reason you gave and because he
didn't have the approach I gave.

Apocryphally, a new user sent back his Windows PC because it took more
than 2 seconds to boot! Said: "It didn't work" !!!

In the days before PCs, when we used command lines, there was the
concept of "response time". Anything that took more than 2 seconds from hitting <return> was deemed poor design and would have to be re-worked.



--
Graham J

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 30/06/2022 10:47, Graham J wrote:

T i m wrote:

[snip]

It is very very sad to see how confused and frustrated she gets and
I've lost my life partner.

That's very sad.

Thanks, it is, for both of us. ;-(

  How old is she?

72?

My Dad *wrote* (a letter) to a Phone Co asking how to turn on his new
mobile phone (2s press) because of the reason you gave and because he
didn't have the approach I gave.

Apocryphally, a new user sent back his Windows PC because it took more
than 2 seconds to boot!  Said: "It didn't work" !!!

And given the speed of starting of tablets and phones you could see why
they might think that. ;-)

In the days before PCs, when we used command lines, there was the
concept of "response time".  Anything that took more than 2 seconds from hitting <return> was deemed poor design and would have to be re-worked.

Yeah, I can see that.

I believe it's also why we often have some form of 'launch notification'
on GUIs?

Cheers, T i m

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)