Sort of a memory dump from last night whilst I can still remember any of
it ...
The goal was to give Mum (92) a bigger screen / newer iPhone to
accompany her iPad ... with with the phone on a Smarty contract rather
than just PAYG with mobile data turned off on her older iPhone so that
her grand-kids could communicate with her wherever she was (inc on
holiday because my BIL and Sister don't know how to re-connect her to
any temporary WiFi etc).
(Following advice here) I initially restored an iCloud backup off the
old phone onto the new and that seemed to go ok. I couldn't do much with Whatsapp because she and the other kit were 30 miles away.
After sorting out wireless charging stands, cables and cases and running
/ testing the phone for a while here, we went over yesterday and long / short, I gave up trying to migrate Whatsapp off her old iPhone because
it said we needed to free up more space to be able to backup the chat
history and we didn't have the space. Also I wasn't sure if we could
actually restore the full chat history to what would be both a different phone number and physical phone so we have just set it up straight on
the new phone and just notified the few contacts of the changes and
asked then to adjust any groups etc. From the things I read it didn't
even seem that it would restore any media with the chat text so have
just left it with her old phone / account as is (so she can reference it
if she needs) and she can request anything to be sent to the new phone
if she needs.
With everything that was going I didn't really get to spend too much
time getting her up to speed with the 11. I got her to send some
Whatapps and make / receive some calls and she seemed able but she isn't particularly accurate with her touch use and some things didn't seem
very 'friendly'.
Like, when I phoned her she got a very small indication at the top right
that she cancelled twice before accepting and when she did accept she
then had to also select 'speaker'. I'm not sure if she would be able to
hear the phone without having it on speaker, or, she might be able to bluetooth it to her hearing aids (as she had with the old phone) but I
don't know how often she ever took a call that way?
Is there any way you can make the call indication 'bigger' and is there
a way to set a default (phone / speaker / bluetooth) to speaker as I
think speaker / hands-free may be most useful to her?
Also I think we might need to turn off as many of the gestures as
possible and just leave the basic ones as I saw her opening swiping all
sorts of stuff she didn't intend. I think an 'Old / basic phone' mode
might do it. ;-)
How do you turn it off (not that she needs to as such).
She asked if there was any form of instruction with the phone but I';m
not sure there is anything that she would actually read, understand so
use and if there was something (printable) for the phone, I'm guessing
most of the questions would be in / around the apps? If there is a
'iPhone 11 with the current iOS for the non technical that is less than
10 pages it might be worth me getting her that. Previously no tech book
or helped has actually helped.
From a personal POV, I'm not sure if it's just the apps (mainly
Whatsapp) or that in combination with the phone / iOS but I found it
SOOOO confusing and messy. It was often purely poke and hope for me to
get anything to do what I wanted and so I was no use when trying to show
her anything as nothing seemed to work the same way twice. Like is there
a 'back' button / action / swipe and it seemed that I had to just close
(with an upsweep from the bottom on the little line) to be able to
'start again' to get back to where I was hoping. This is all in
comparison with any of it on an old Samsung Galaxy S7 where it all just
seems far more efficient (but obviously I'm used to that). I'm hoping
Mum with get used to it in time.
I'm not sure where we ended up on the iPad. I left her old Whatsapp app
(that might have been a 3rd party Whatsapp Messenger thing) sill on her
old account and added a shortcut to Whatsapp web (as advised here
previously) and you could therefore use either.
The idea is to slowly wean her off her old phone onto her new and
hopefully the phone will be good enough stand alone for most things if
the iPad isn't able to log in for any reason.
Cheers, T i m
She asked if there was any form of instruction with the phone but I';m
not sure there is anything that she would actually read, understand so
use and if there was something (printable) for the phone, I'm guessing
most of the questions would be in / around the apps? If there is a
'iPhone 11 with the current iOS for the non technical that is less than
10 pages it might be worth me getting her that. Previously no tech book
or helped has actually helped.
If you look in the Apple Book Store, you should be able to find the Manuals for IOS and iPasOS. The first of these should be reasonably relevant, depending on which version of IOS you're (she's) using.
If you look in the Apple Book Store, you should be able to find the Manuals for IOS and iPasOS. The first of these should be reasonably relevant, depending on which version of IOS you're (she's) using.
Thanks for that. So I Google 'Apple Books' and it takes me here:
https://www.apple.com/uk/apple-books/
It looks like it's accessible by an app?
I'll have to see if I can install it on Mums old iPad that I have here.
In article <jujqqdFcramU3@mid.individual.net>, T i m <individual@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
If you look in the Apple Book Store, you should be able to find the Manuals >>> for IOS and iPasOS. The first of these should be reasonably relevant,Thanks for that. So I Google 'Apple Books' and it takes me here:
depending on which version of IOS you're (she's) using.
https://www.apple.com/uk/apple-books/
It looks like it's accessible by an app?
I'll have to see if I can install it on Mums old iPad that I have here.
there are downloadable pdfs and online html versions
<https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/download-or-bookmark-the-user-gu ide-iph3bf43c08/ios>
there are downloadable pdfs and online html versions
<https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/download-or-bookmark-the-user-gu ide-iph3bf43c08/ios>
I'm not sure how easy it will be to get Mum to answer the 'What iOS
version' question but I would have updated it to the latest available so
that may help someone advise.
Also, I couldn't actually see where I could download the PDF but again,
it might be available via the Book Store app?
In article <juknq0Fi6s1U2@mid.individual.net>, T i m <individual@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
there are downloadable pdfs and online html versions
<https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/download-or-bookmark-the-user-gu >>> ide-iph3bf43c08/ios>
I'm not sure how easy it will be to get Mum to answer the 'What iOS
version' question but I would have updated it to the latest available so
that may help someone advise.
they're not *that* different. mostly, an option might be in a slightly different place or has a slightly different name. a few new ones might
be available.
I'm not sure how easy it will be to get Mum to answer the 'What iOS
version' question but I would have updated it to the latest available so >> that may help someone advise.
they're not *that* different. mostly, an option might be in a slightly different place or has a slightly different name. a few new ones might
be available.
Catering for older people's needs highlights to me that even the smallest change is very disruptive. My mum learns by rote so moving things around stops her being able to do things.
This is why manuals for iOS are pointless as within a few weeks/months they are out of date.
On 28/11/2022 13:24, nospam wrote:
In article <jujqqdFcramU3@mid.individual.net>, T i m
<individual@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
If you look in the Apple Book Store, you should be able to find the ManualsThanks for that. So I Google 'Apple Books' and it takes me here:
for IOS and iPasOS. The first of these should be reasonably relevant,
depending on which version of IOS you're (she's) using.
https://www.apple.com/uk/apple-books/
It looks like it's accessible by an app?
I'll have to see if I can install it on Mums old iPad that I have here.
there are downloadable pdfs and online html versions
<https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/download-or-bookmark-the-user-gu
ide-iph3bf43c08/ios>
I'm not sure how easy it will be to get Mum to answer the 'What iOS
version' question but I would have updated it to the latest available so
that may help someone advise.
Also, I couldn't actually see where I could download the PDF but again,
it might be available via the Book Store app?
Cheers, T i m
In article <tm4dbe$27qi6$1@dont-email.me>, Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
wrote:
I'm not sure how easy it will be to get Mum to answer the 'What iOS
version' question but I would have updated it to the latest available so >>>> that may help someone advise.
they're not *that* different. mostly, an option might be in a slightly
different place or has a slightly different name. a few new ones might
be available.
Catering for older people's needs highlights to me that even the smallest
change is very disruptive. My mum learns by rote so moving things around
stops her being able to do things.
very little moves around, for exactly that reason.
the differences are mostly minor, which are unlikely to be used by most people, and someone is helping anyway.
This is why manuals for iOS are pointless as within a few weeks/months they >> are out of date.
changes don't happen anywhere near that often.
I have always obtained copies from the Book Store, via the Books app, which should be on the iPhone by default.
And no, it doesn't seem to change much with time.
Given how good Apple is (supposed to be with) UI's (they have never
worked for me or our daughter), you would think there would be a 'Basic
mode' that shut off all the features that are very likely to make things
much more complicated?
She asked if there was any form of instruction with the phone but I';m
not sure there is anything that she would actually read, understand so
use and if there was something (printable) for the phone, I'm guessing
most of the questions would be in / around the apps? If there is a
'iPhone 11 with the current iOS for the non technical that is less than
10 pages it might be worth me getting her that. Previously no tech book
or helped has actually helped.
From a personal POV, I'm not sure if it's just the apps (mainly
Whatsapp) or that in combination with the phone / iOS but I found it
SOOOO confusing and messy. It was often purely poke and hope for me to
get anything to do what I wanted and so I was no use when trying to show
her anything as nothing seemed to work the same way twice. Like is there
a 'back' button / action / swipe and it seemed that I had to just close
(with an upsweep from the bottom on the little line) to be able to
'start again' to get back to where I was hoping. This is all in
comparison with any of it on an old Samsung Galaxy S7 where it all just
seems far more efficient (but obviously I'm used to that). I'm hoping
Mum with get used to it in time.
T i m <individual@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
She asked if there was any form of instruction with the phone but I';m
not sure there is anything that she would actually read, understand so
use and if there was something (printable) for the phone, I'm guessing
most of the questions would be in / around the apps? If there is a
'iPhone 11 with the current iOS for the non technical that is less than
10 pages it might be worth me getting her that. Previously no tech book
or helped has actually helped.
I would suggest, and recommend, some of the Take Control series of books:
https://www.takecontrolbooks.com
They do have a Black Friday sale running still at the moment. Even with
years of Apple ownership and experience, these are still useful references, and I own a few of them.
From a personal POV, I'm not sure if it's just the apps (mainly
Whatsapp) or that in combination with the phone / iOS but I found it
SOOOO confusing and messy. It was often purely poke and hope for me to
get anything to do what I wanted and so I was no use when trying to show
her anything as nothing seemed to work the same way twice. Like is there
a 'back' button / action / swipe and it seemed that I had to just close
(with an upsweep from the bottom on the little line) to be able to
'start again' to get back to where I was hoping. This is all in
comparison with any of it on an old Samsung Galaxy S7 where it all just
seems far more efficient (but obviously I'm used to that). I'm hoping
Mum with get used to it in time.
I fail to see how the reference to the non-Apple devices is helping in any way.
We know how much you don’t like Apple OS design, so no need to keep reminding us ;-)
(Equally I really hate the Android UI, and underlying
privacy and security issues, but mentioning that has no relevance).
On 28/11/2022 13:01, John Hill wrote:
<snip>
Thanks for that. So I Google 'Apple Books' and it takes me here:She asked if there was any form of instruction with the phone but I';m
not sure there is anything that she would actually read, understand so
use and if there was something (printable) for the phone, I'm guessing
most of the questions would be in / around the apps? If there is a
'iPhone 11 with the current iOS for the non technical that is less than
10 pages it might be worth me getting her that. Previously no tech book
or helped has actually helped.
If you look in the Apple Book Store, you should be able to find the Manuals >> for IOS and iPasOS. The first of these should be reasonably relevant,
depending on which version of IOS you're (she's) using.
https://www.apple.com/uk/apple-books/
It looks like it's accessible by an app?
I'll have to see if I can install it on Mums old iPad that I have here.
On 28 Nov 2022 at 13:19:09 GMT, T i m wrote:
On 28/11/2022 13:01, John Hill wrote:
<snip>
Thanks for that. So I Google 'Apple Books' and it takes me here:She asked if there was any form of instruction with the phone but I';m >>>> not sure there is anything that she would actually read, understand so >>>> use and if there was something (printable) for the phone, I'm guessing >>>> most of the questions would be in / around the apps? If there is a
'iPhone 11 with the current iOS for the non technical that is less than >>>> 10 pages it might be worth me getting her that. Previously no tech book >>>> or helped has actually helped.
If you look in the Apple Book Store, you should be able to find the Manuals >>> for IOS and iPasOS. The first of these should be reasonably relevant,
depending on which version of IOS you're (she's) using.
https://www.apple.com/uk/apple-books/
It looks like it's accessible by an app?
I'll have to see if I can install it on Mums old iPad that I have here.
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but I always use the system search if I'm
stuck - most of the time it takes me to where I need to be.
FWIW, I've found (having taught IT to many never-touched-a-keyboard adults) 2 things: >
* Some people find learning IT incredibly stressful - not least because most children are more adept than themselves. Ther's no easy way round that IMHO over than patience and understanding.
* Avoid demonstrating how it's done - refer the user (your mum) to step-by-step instructions and leave them to do it.
Saw many IT teachers zoom
around the desktop 'doing it', leaving the student clueless.
I think manuals etc. might not work too well in your situation.
Sorry if you
know all of this and more :-)
T i m <individual@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
Given how good Apple is (supposed to be with) UI's (they have never
worked for me or our daughter), you would think there would be a 'Basic
mode' that shut off all the features that are very likely to make things
much more complicated?
You may find what you're looking for in the accessibility options. In iOS they are very extensive, however, I'm not familiar with them so can't guide you I'm afraid.
The problem here is that she is undergoing tests for dementia, Mum is 92
and just can't remember that sort of thing (but will recite everything
she did that week). ;-)
Given how good Apple is (supposed to be with) UI's (they have never
worked for me or our daughter), you would think there would be a 'Basic
mode' that shut off all the features that are very likely to make things
much more complicated?
It's bad enough just handing someone like that a smart phone with the
picture all nicely set up for them ... ;-(
[Another iOS UI rant: for a long time the soft keyboard didn't switch
to showing uppercase letters when shift was engaged. So, when entering a password where the thing you were typing was obscured by stars, you couldn't tell if you were in uppercase or lowercase mode, unless you observed the brief flash-up of the letters.
how hard can it
be to transfer my old image to a new lockscreen config behind the scenes?
We did pair her last iPhone to her hearing aids so we can investigate
that open when we see her next.
If that was the case, it might make more sense that it asks how to deal
with the audio when receiving a call, phone / speaker / hearing aids etc.
On 02/12/2022 12:25, Andy Hewitt wrote:
T i m <individual@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
She asked if there was any form of instruction with the phone but I';m
not sure there is anything that she would actually read, understand so
use and if there was something (printable) for the phone, I'm guessing
most of the questions would be in / around the apps? If there is a
'iPhone 11 with the current iOS for the non technical that is less than
10 pages it might be worth me getting her that. Previously no tech book
or helped has actually helped.
I would suggest, and recommend, some of the Take Control series of books:
https://www.takecontrolbooks.com
Cheers. IU think the problem with users like
this is they often don't know what question to ask to be able to get
near the right answer, something that 'online' help can sometimes help
better with with it's 'Did you mean ...'
From a personal POV, I'm not sure if it's just the apps (mainly
Whatsapp) or that in combination with the phone / iOS but I found it
SOOOO confusing and messy. It was often purely poke and hope for me to
get anything to do what I wanted and so I was no use when trying to show >>> her anything as nothing seemed to work the same way twice. Like is there >>> a 'back' button / action / swipe and it seemed that I had to just close
(with an upsweep from the bottom on the little line) to be able to
'start again' to get back to where I was hoping. This is all in
comparison with any of it on an old Samsung Galaxy S7 where it all just
seems far more efficient (but obviously I'm used to that). I'm hoping
Mum with get used to it in time.
I fail to see how the reference to the non-Apple devices is helping in any >> way.
Because it was an observation commenting on a UI that is supposed to be
more intuitive than others (as you go on to cite),
isn't intuitive to
the likes of me, in spite of being 'fairly technical'? Maybe that
statement that I don't (and never have, in spite of playing with Apple products since the SE) found it particularly intuitive (nor to the non-technical people I'm generally trying to help presumably) was also a
plea to see if there was a way of making it 'easier', especially for
someone like my 90 year old Mum?
We know how much you don’t like Apple OS design, so no need to keep
reminding us ;-)
The funny thing is though. If I was a fully paid up and bent over Apple Fanboy <g>, I could complain about all sorts of aspects about Apple and
their products here and the chances are you (in particular it seems)
wouldn't be triggered? ;-)
(Equally I really hate the Android UI, and underlying
privacy and security issues, but mentioning that has no relevance).
Where did I say I 'hated' anything about Apple or their UI's?
I cited a specific example of where I found it unfriendly and in many
cases when I have done similar in the past, many Apple fans have agreed
with me?
So, on that very point ... Luddite sister actually tried to help Mum
with her iPhone by connecting the WiFi (potentially not needed as she
should have mobile data but maybe there is no 3 (Smarty) there) wherever
they were staying on holiday right now and sent me a Whatsapp message
from her (Android) phone saying she's made the connection but now
couldn't work out how to go 'back'?
I did find, edit and print a crib sheet for some of the gestures for her
11 but again, I'm not sure it's something that would be carried and so available when needed? ;-(.
Unfortunately I think the best way for Mum to learn would be to have
some direct and regular (to start with especially) mentoring but I don't think (and you aren't going to like me stating this fact), any of the
wider family have an iPhone. Some have iPads but they don't have all the phone features or UI as this iPhone 11 that we could use some real
skillz with.
On 3 Dec 2022 at 16:47:54 GMT, "T i m" <individual@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
We did pair her last iPhone to her hearing aids so we can investigate
that open when we see her next.
If that was the case, it might make more sense that it asks how to deal
with the audio when receiving a call, phone / speaker / hearing aids etc.
I'm not sure what Whatsapp does in calls, but standard iThing behaviour
is to default to whatever was used last, if the devices last used are
active to connect to. Then falls back to local mic+speaker.
On 29/11/2022 23:59, Chris wrote:
T i m <individual@spaced.me.uk> wrote:Thanks. We didn't have the time we needed to spend much time getting Mum
Given how good Apple is (supposed to be with) UI's (they have never
worked for me or our daughter), you would think there would be a 'Basic
mode' that shut off all the features that are very likely to make things >>> much more complicated?
You may find what you're looking for in the accessibility options. In iOS
they are very extensive, however, I'm not familiar with them so can't guide >> you I'm afraid.
up to speed on her new iPhone 11 but did want to get it to her before
they all went on holiday.
T i m <individual@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
On 02/12/2022 12:25, Andy Hewitt wrote:
T i m <individual@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
She asked if there was any form of instruction with the phone but I';m >>>> not sure there is anything that she would actually read, understand so >>>> use and if there was something (printable) for the phone, I'm guessing >>>> most of the questions would be in / around the apps? If there is a
'iPhone 11 with the current iOS for the non technical that is less than >>>> 10 pages it might be worth me getting her that. Previously no tech book >>>> or helped has actually helped.
I would suggest, and recommend, some of the Take Control series of books: >>>
https://www.takecontrolbooks.com
Cheers. IU think the problem with users like
this is they often don't know what question to ask to be able to get
near the right answer, something that 'online' help can sometimes help
better with with it's 'Did you mean ...'
How about getting one of these and copying out just bits of text that you feel could be helpful (they do allow that within reason). Have you checked them out to see if they might be helpful?
From a personal POV, I'm not sure if it's just the apps (mainly
Whatsapp) or that in combination with the phone / iOS but I found it
SOOOO confusing and messy. It was often purely poke and hope for me to >>>> get anything to do what I wanted and so I was no use when trying to show >>>> her anything as nothing seemed to work the same way twice. Like is there >>>> a 'back' button / action / swipe and it seemed that I had to just close >>>> (with an upsweep from the bottom on the little line) to be able to
'start again' to get back to where I was hoping. This is all in
comparison with any of it on an old Samsung Galaxy S7 where it all just >>>> seems far more efficient (but obviously I'm used to that). I'm hoping
Mum with get used to it in time.
I fail to see how the reference to the non-Apple devices is helping in any >>> way.
Because it was an observation commenting on a UI that is supposed to be
more intuitive than others (as you go on to cite),
Yes, I find that to be so IMHO (but I wasn’t citing it).
isn't intuitive to
the likes of me, in spite of being 'fairly technical'? Maybe that
statement that I don't (and never have, in spite of playing with Apple
products since the SE) found it particularly intuitive (nor to the
non-technical people I'm generally trying to help presumably) was also a
plea to see if there was a way of making it 'easier', especially for
someone like my 90 year old Mum?
Perhaps that’s why both of us find the respective UIs either intuitive or not. We have only ‘played’ with the alternatives, (as you have stated that’s what you do).
We know how much you don’t like Apple OS design, so no need to keep
reminding us ;-)
The funny thing is though. If I was a fully paid up and bent over Apple
Fanboy <g>, I could complain about all sorts of aspects about Apple and
their products here and the chances are you (in particular it seems)
wouldn't be triggered? ;-)
Again, I fail to see how helpful that comment is.
And, FWIW, I’m not
particularly a ‘fanboy’ (at least no more than you are an Android ‘fanboy’).
If I had a need, or desire, to change platforms, I have no
compulsion in doing so with regards to supporting any particular company. I only use Apple devices and services simply because they do what I need. I have no need to consider anything else.
(Equally I really hate the Android UI, and underlying
privacy and security issues, but mentioning that has no relevance).
Where did I say I 'hated' anything about Apple or their UI's?
I didn’t say you did hate Apple, although you do complain enough about it here, so it’s easy to be mistaken that you do.
I said *I* hated the Android UI (and yeah, I have used it sometimes), and
the other parts that I mentioned. But that’s just me. I hate Windows too ;-)
I cited a specific example of where I found it unfriendly and in many
cases when I have done similar in the past, many Apple fans have agreed
with me?
No problem with that. Of course it’s not all perfect. What is?
So, on that very point ... Luddite sister actually tried to help Mum
with her iPhone by connecting the WiFi (potentially not needed as she
should have mobile data but maybe there is no 3 (Smarty) there) wherever
they were staying on holiday right now and sent me a Whatsapp message
from her (Android) phone saying she's made the connection but now
couldn't work out how to go 'back'?
Hmm, I would have just turned off the Wi-Fi. Or a quick click gets you to ‘forget this network’.
I did find, edit and print a crib sheet for some of the gestures for her
11 but again, I'm not sure it's something that would be carried and so
available when needed? ;-(.
Yes, a crib sheet can be handy, although as you say, they don’t always carry them, or remember where they put it.
Unfortunately I think the best way for Mum to learn would be to have
some direct and regular (to start with especially) mentoring but I don't
think (and you aren't going to like me stating this fact), any of the
wider family have an iPhone. Some have iPads but they don't have all the
phone features or UI as this iPhone 11 that we could use some real
skillz with.
Indeed, being taught by someone who is familiar with a device, and it’s UI, and perhaps someone that is happy to use it, rather than wishing it was a different OS, might be the better solution.
Seems to me it could be just best to get her an Android phone, then she’ll have exponentially more help available.
On 03/12/2022 21:24, Andy Hewitt wrote:
How about getting one of these and copying out just bits of text that you
feel could be helpful (they do allow that within reason). Have you
checked
them out to see if they might be helpful?
No, I haven't and didn't know you could (without buying them?) but I
repeat, how would she then find and potentially understand such
instructions? How often might she need to use them as the often used
things aren't generally a problem in any case? Would she have them with
her when she needs them (like would she take them on holiday) etc etc?
Given the time, what we have found to be the most effective (and by
'most' I mean 5%) is to get her to write whatever notes she needs in her
own words as we go though important stuff step by step. It's only 5%
because of the above (her not keeping them available or referring to
them again). ;-(
Because it was an observation commenting on a UI that is supposed to be
more intuitive than others (as you go on to cite),
Yes, I find that to be so IMHO (but I wasn’t citing it).
Of course you do and why you comment on *my* (only?) honest opinions. If
you personally suggested that you 'hate' Android for real world
practical reasons then I'd agree with you. ;-)
And how often do I post here for it to be 'enough'. What seems strange
(to me anyway) is that *I* initiated the upgrade of mums iPhones, *I* initiated the upgrade of mums iPad, I pay for her iCloud account, all
because I believe that it was the best solution for *her*. Not just from
a practical POV but from a emotional / historic POV because Dad was an
'Apple fanboy' and so Mum was keen to follow in his footsteps because he
was her husband.
It would be far easier for me to have got her an Android phone becauseOK, I get that, if it's not broke, and all that.
she would be able to get better support all round but I'd then also need
to arrange other syncing of photos between her iPhone and iPad and
arrange other backup yada yada. Given she now lives with Ludites and a
fair way from me (and with my Mrs now being diagnosed for dementia) I
want something that she's at least familiar with conceptually and over
at least 10 years now in the hope she can work enough out on her own.
So, on that very point ... Luddite sister actually tried to help Mum
with her iPhone by connecting the WiFi (potentially not needed as she
should have mobile data but maybe there is no 3 (Smarty) there) wherever >>> they were staying on holiday right now and sent me a Whatsapp message
from her (Android) phone saying she's made the connection but now
couldn't work out how to go 'back'?
Hmm, I would have just turned off the Wi-Fi. Or a quick click gets you to
‘forget this network’.
Why would you have turned off the free access to WiFi when it would be
1) free and 2) potentially more reliable than the 3 service out there?
Indeed, being taught by someone who is familiar with a device, and
it’s UI,
and perhaps someone that is happy to use it, rather than wishing it was a
different OS, might be the better solution.
He he. Strangely I (personally) don't 'wish it was a different OS' for
the reasons I have given above, I just with the OS that I believe
provides the best solution for my Mum, was at least useable by anyone
without it being any more difficult or any harder for most people than anything else? ;-(
See above.
Seems to me it could be just best to get her an Android phone, then
she’ll
have exponentially more help available.
The next step would be to use her new iPhone 11 as a mobile hotspot for
her iPad so she would be able to use her iPad for Whatsapp wherever she
was but I felt that might be a step two sometime later (and partly why
we got her the bigger iPhone to do away with her reliance on her iPad
for Whatsapp etc).
on 04/12/2022 10:59, T i m wrote:
On 03/12/2022 21:24, Andy Hewitt wrote:
How about getting one of these and copying out just bits of text that
you
feel could be helpful (they do allow that within reason). Have you
checked
them out to see if they might be helpful?
No, I haven't and didn't know you could (without buying them?) but I
repeat, how would she then find and potentially understand such
instructions? How often might she need to use them as the often used
things aren't generally a problem in any case? Would she have them
with her when she needs them (like would she take them on holiday) etc
etc?
No, you have to buy them, but if you really need something as a manual
for an Apple device, there's not much else that's better than these.
Given the time, what we have found to be the most effective (and by
'most' I mean 5%) is to get her to write whatever notes she needs in
her own words as we go though important stuff step by step. It's only
5% because of the above (her not keeping them available or referring
to them again). ;-(
Well, as far as I can see, your options for learning something, are to
use a manual, buy a better manual (that's not a new thing), get someone
to teach you (and remember what you're taught), or learn by trial and
error.
Of course the learning by personal tuition, and writing stuff down is a
good method. But all of this falls apart if there's a fundamental
failure to work with any of that.
Usually it's a matter of doing things often enough they become second
nature.
Because it was an observation commenting on a UI that is supposed to be >>>> more intuitive than others (as you go on to cite),
Yes, I find that to be so IMHO (but I wasn’t citing it).
Of course you do and why you comment on *my* (only?) honest opinions.
If you personally suggested that you 'hate' Android for real world
practical reasons then I'd agree with you. ;-)
Not at all, my commenting is only because you don't need to keep
mentioning those opinions every time you ask a question about an Apple device.
This is, after all, a dedicated Apple device forum, and quite frankly, I don't really care to hear about the Android system at all.
If I did, I
would join one of those forums.
And how often do I post here for it to be 'enough'. What seems strange
(to me anyway) is that *I* initiated the upgrade of mums iPhones, *I*
initiated the upgrade of mums iPad, I pay for her iCloud account, all
because I believe that it was the best solution for *her*. Not just
from a practical POV but from a emotional / historic POV because Dad
was an 'Apple fanboy' and so Mum was keen to follow in his footsteps
because he was her husband.
It seems you mention you don't find the Apple UI intuitive in just about
ever posting, that's all.
(all the other Android vs OS conversation I snipped, simply because it's obviously only ever going to end up as a circular XX vs XX argument, and really, I don't care, which is why I just get irritated when I see those comments in your posts).
It would be far easier for me to have got her an Android phone because
she would be able to get better support all round but I'd then also
need to arrange other syncing of photos between her iPhone and iPad
and arrange other backup yada yada. Given she now lives with Ludites
and a fair way from me (and with my Mrs now being diagnosed for
dementia) I want something that she's at least familiar with
conceptually and over at least 10 years now in the hope she can work
enough out on her own.
OK, I get that, if it's not broke, and all that.
So, on that very point ... Luddite sister actually tried to help Mum
with her iPhone by connecting the WiFi (potentially not needed as she
should have mobile data but maybe there is no 3 (Smarty) there)
wherever
they were staying on holiday right now and sent me a Whatsapp message
from her (Android) phone saying she's made the connection but now
couldn't work out how to go 'back'?
Hmm, I would have just turned off the Wi-Fi. Or a quick click gets
you to
‘forget this network’.
Why would you have turned off the free access to WiFi when it would be
1) free and 2) potentially more reliable than the 3 service out there?
I thought you were saying they wanted to return to the mobile network!
It's a flick of a (software) switch to activate or deactivate either.
To be honest, if anyone can't work out that much, then we have no hope.
Indeed, being taught by someone who is familiar with a device, and
it’s UI,
and perhaps someone that is happy to use it, rather than wishing it
was a
different OS, might be the better solution.
He he. Strangely I (personally) don't 'wish it was a different OS' for
the reasons I have given above, I just with the OS that I believe
provides the best solution for my Mum, was at least useable by anyone
without it being any more difficult or any harder for most people than
anything else? ;-(
See above.
Seems to me it could be just best to get her an Android phone, then
she’ll
have exponentially more help available.
All things considered, it could still be the better option, either way
you seem to be going through some transitional pain. Would that be worth considering as a short term loss for long term gain?
The next step would be to use her new iPhone 11 as a mobile hotspot
for her iPad so she would be able to use her iPad for Whatsapp
wherever she was but I felt that might be a step two sometime later
(and partly why we got her the bigger iPhone to do away with her
reliance on her iPad for Whatsapp etc).
Yes, that's what I do too. I chose a non-SIM based iPad with the
intention of the the phone to piggy back onto the mobile network. It
works fine. Just click on the Wi-Fi Settings option, and your phone
appears as a network you can choose.
You need to make sure your provider
allows for tethering - I think some might still charge for this.
On 04/12/2022 13:39, Andy Hewitt wrote:
Well, as far as I can see, your options for learning something, are to
use a manual, buy a better manual (that's not a new thing), get
someone to teach you (and remember what you're taught), or learn by
trial and error.
I think that options one and one(a) (reading manuals) aren't going to be
that much use to Mum and have never really been a solution to me,
outside of any hidden / specifics I need to look up, rather than
explore. The mentoring is ok (for Mum) if it can be offered piecemeal
and on demand (not practical as no one we are aware of that is very
local to Mum is an Apple user) so it's likely to be a combo of trial and error with some tech questions by me here as / when something I can't
explore through myself.
Usually it's a matter of doing things often enough they become second
nature.
Indeed. She can swash-buckle her way to the desired solution in most
cases, as long as it doesn't require any actually managed input (like a password or ID).
This is, after all, a dedicated Apple device forum, and quite frankly,
I don't really care to hear about the Android system at all.
I don't think I was ever actually talking *about* the android 'system',
I was only likely comparing my experience with both by way of comparison?
If I did, I would join one of those forums.
Strangely enough ... I've never owned or read a manual on Android or
any of my phones, nor joined any Android forum or newsgroup (that I
remember) so had to ask a question on it. I have had questions but have always been able to find answers online.
It seems you mention you don't find the Apple UI intuitive in just
about ever posting, that's all.
The chances are I'm only posting here when I have an issue and that
issue is often only an issue to me because it's not intuitive, something
it should be considering these are generally 'user level' devices we are talking about? Surely 40 years in IT support and helping all sorts of
people with all sorts of kit most my life wouldn't make the Apple UI
*more* difficult to me (and given I'm only involved because someone else can't make it work either)?
(all the other Android vs OS conversation I snipped, simply because
it's obviously only ever going to end up as a circular XX vs XX
argument, and really, I don't care, which is why I just get irritated
when I see those comments in your posts).
Then may I suggest you simply ignore them as they aren't posted to piss
you or anyone else off but as a comparison as to what I might be trying
to do and what I might expect to see / do on *any* system?
Like, should the phone answer / deny buttons be tiny and in the top rh corner? Or is it a setting or what. That was a clue for you or anyone to
say 'No, they shouldn't be like that, they should be like on your
Android phone and big easy to use buttons, are you sure you haven't
turned XYZ mode on by mistake'?
Why would you have turned off the free access to WiFi when it would
be 1) free and 2) potentially more reliable than the 3 service out
there?
I thought you were saying they wanted to return to the mobile network!
Nooo. ;-) They have turned up at a holiday place in Wales, it has WiFi, sister managed to connect Mums phone to it ok but then couldn't get out
of that screen because there is no obvious 'back' route / button. ;-(
It's a flick of a (software) switch to activate or deactivate either.
Sure.
To be honest, if anyone can't work out that much, then we have no hope.
Quite (but it wasn't the need / case in this case). ;-)
All things considered, it could still be the better option, either way
you seem to be going through some transitional pain. Would that be
worth considering as a short term loss for long term gain?
That would include even more expense, especially if we couldn't easily
share / sync the pictures between Android phone and iPad and I had to
set up another cloud backup / synch service and get her an Android
tablet.
One point in Apples favour there is the integrated service (one
thing they are good at, from the whole iPOd / iTunes / Store thing) and
I've not tried to set up similar between Android devices.
The next step would be to use her new iPhone 11 as a mobile hotspot
for her iPad so she would be able to use her iPad for Whatsapp
wherever she was but I felt that might be a step two sometime later
(and partly why we got her the bigger iPhone to do away with her
reliance on her iPad for Whatsapp etc).
Yes, that's what I do too. I chose a non-SIM based iPad with the
intention of the the phone to piggy back onto the mobile network. It
works fine. Just click on the Wi-Fi Settings option, and your phone
appears as a network you can choose.
Yup, just like Android but I question the use of the word 'just' for my
92 year old Mum. ;-)
You need to make sure your provider allows for tethering - I think
some might still charge for this.
It's Smarty in this case and I don't believe they do.
Also, I think the Whatsapp app has grown more tolerant over the time,
like the number of concurrently connected devices going from 2 (phone + summat) to 4 or so and I think I saw something about it not needing the
phone to be online for the web version to still function,once linked
(*part* of her original issue using the iPad and the iPhone I think).
Like, should the phone answer / deny buttons be tiny and in the top rh corner? Or is it a setting or what. That was a clue for you or anyone to
say 'No, they shouldn't be like that, they should be like on your
Android phone and big easy to use buttons, are you sure you haven't
turned XYZ mode on by mistake'?
OK,, understood. Although I must admit, I have always preferred having a proper old fashioned printed manual if I was going to have one.
I mention these book because they're written by knowledgable people,
well respected in the Apple user community, and they write them based on actual use of the products. They contain lots of additional information
that isn't included in the official documentations (such as tips on
stuff that doesn't work as expected).
OK, it doesn't come across like like, it's just sounding like a whinge :-/.
I just find the continued use of the word 'unintuitive' to not be very helpful, or even accurate.
That's just an individual perception.
As a
point, the Apple systems have probably been regarded as some of the most intuitive stuff ever creative with regard to tech stuff.
All it is, is that you, or other non-iOS users, simply don't know how something works.
It's not a new concept, I've spent a lot of time
rooting around in various systems looking for basic settings, they're
usually there somewhere, but not always in an easy place to find.
From what I've experienced, Apple seems to have made more of that easy
than anyone. Stuff that's more hidden is usually stuff that you
shouldn't need to mess with anyway.
To be honest, if you're personally finding something 'unintuitive' with
an Apple product, and it's genuinely something that could be made
better, then why not tell Apple - they have a customer feedback system,
so if enough users complain of the same thing, it's possible they might change it in future.
https://www.apple.com/feedback/
(all the other Android vs OS conversation I snipped, simply because
it's obviously only ever going to end up as a circular XX vs XX
argument, and really, I don't care, which is why I just get irritated
when I see those comments in your posts).
Then may I suggest you simply ignore them as they aren't posted to
piss you or anyone else off but as a comparison as to what I might be
trying to do and what I might expect to see / do on *any* system?
That's only any use if the people you're asking have the same reference point. As it is, as a non-Android user, I have no idea what you're
talking about. It only has the affect of 'pissing off'.
Like, should the phone answer / deny buttons be tiny and in the top rh
corner? Or is it a setting or what. That was a clue for you or anyone
to say 'No, they shouldn't be like that, they should be like on your
Android phone and big easy to use buttons, are you sure you haven't
turned XYZ mode on by mistake'?
OK, now you see, this is what's happened, the 'unintuitive' thing is
just a distraction (which is really my point).
That's is just a simple setting. Which I fail to see as unintuitive.
It's annoying for sure, but not unintuitive. It's not possible to have
so many settings on a modern device without putting them into some kind
of order.
Now to me, that's logically inside the 'Settings' icon. It's a problem
with the Phone settings, so I'd look in the Phone item in the Settings
list. There's an item called 'Incoming Calls' with 'Banner' next to it. Select that, and you can change 'Banner' to 'Full Screen'.
Would that be helpful?
I believe that was something that changed with iOS16. Maybe not to
everyone's taste for sure, but it does have a user preference available
to revert back to the old way.
Why would you have turned off the free access to WiFi when it would
be 1) free and 2) potentially more reliable than the 3 service out
there?
I thought you were saying they wanted to return to the mobile network!
Nooo. ;-) They have turned up at a holiday place in Wales, it has
WiFi, sister managed to connect Mums phone to it ok but then couldn't
get out of that screen because there is no obvious 'back' route /
button. ;-(
OK, understand that now. I guess they probably came across one of those annoying third party 'insecure network' login screens.
That's something
that's not an Apple thing,
and proprietary to whatever software the
hotel has implemented. I've seen those too, and they can be a bit crap. Usually you just go back to the home screen once you're logged in (but
that's about the information they put on that screen).
It's a flick of a (software) switch to activate or deactivate either.
Sure.
To be honest, if anyone can't work out that much, then we have no hope.
Quite (but it wasn't the need / case in this case). ;-)
Yes, I see that now.
Yeah, I was thinking more of changing all the devices to Android. But as
you say, it's a bit of work to transfer everything over, and syncing
stuff like that is not as 'intuitive' on the Android system ;-).
Although I would probably set it all up in an Amazon account and use
their cloud system. Although I dislike it due to privacy concerns.
One point in Apples favour there is the integrated service (one thing
they are good at, from the whole iPOd / iTunes / Store thing) and I've
not tried to set up similar between Android devices.
Indeed so, and that's a big reason I stick with Apple nowadays. I use
almost all of their iCloud system (Music, TV, News, Drive, Photos and
Email, Family Sharing and such). The integration of that lot is pretty
good.
Also, I think the Whatsapp app has grown more tolerant over the time,
like the number of concurrently connected devices going from 2 (phone
+ summat) to 4 or so and I think I saw something about it not needing
the phone to be online for the web version to still function,once
linked (*part* of her original issue using the iPad and the iPhone I
think).
Not yet, we're still waiting for a proper WhatsApp app for the iPad.
They promised it about 18 months ago, but still no sign. I just use a
link in Safari, and use their Web version (tip, set up a Reading List
page as a quick link).
Not yet, we're still waiting for a proper WhatsApp app for the iPad.
They promised it about 18 months ago, but still no sign. I just use a
link in Safari, and use their Web version (tip, set up a Reading List
page as a quick link).
Is there any evidence Apple actually listens to this feedback?
They are notorious for the wall of silence when contacted about other
things.
On 04/12/2022 22:59, T i m wrote:
Like, should the phone answer / deny buttons be tiny and in the top rh
corner? Or is it a setting or what. That was a clue for you or anyone to
say 'No, they shouldn't be like that, they should be like on your
Android phone and big easy to use buttons, are you sure you haven't
turned XYZ mode on by mistake'?
That's the bit that confuses me, I normally get red and green buttons
centre bottom of the display.
On 04/12/2022 22:59, T i m wrote:
On 04/12/2022 13:39, Andy Hewitt wrote:
Well, as far as I can see, your options for learning something, are to
use a manual, buy a better manual (that's not a new thing), get
someone to teach you (and remember what you're taught), or learn by
trial and error.
I think that options one and one(a) (reading manuals) aren't going to be that much use to Mum and have never really been a solution to me,
outside of any hidden / specifics I need to look up, rather than
explore. The mentoring is ok (for Mum) if it can be offered piecemeal
and on demand (not practical as no one we are aware of that is very
local to Mum is an Apple user) so it's likely to be a combo of trial and error with some tech questions by me here as / when something I can't explore through myself.
The chances are I'm only posting here when I have an issue and that
issue is often only an issue to me because it's not intuitive, something
it should be considering these are generally 'user level' devices we are talking about? Surely 40 years in IT support and helping all sorts of people with all sorts of kit most my life wouldn't make the Apple UI
*more* difficult to me (and given I'm only involved because someone else can't make it work either)?
I just find the continued use of the word 'unintuitive' to not be very helpful, or even accurate. That's just an individual perception. As a
point, the Apple systems have probably been regarded as some of the most intuitive stuff ever creative with regard to tech stuff.
To be honest, if you're personally finding something 'unintuitive' with
an Apple product, and it's genuinely something that could be made
better, then why not tell Apple - they have a customer feedback system,
so if enough users complain of the same thing, it's possible they might change it in future.
https://www.apple.com/feedback/
Not yet, we're still waiting for a proper WhatsApp app for the iPad.
They promised it about 18 months ago, but still no sign. I just use a
link in Safari, and use their Web version (tip, set up a Reading List
page as a quick link).
Andy Hewitt <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:
Not yet, we're still waiting for a proper WhatsApp app for the iPad.
They promised it about 18 months ago, but still no sign. I just use a
link in Safari, and use their Web version (tip, set up a Reading List
page as a quick link).
Yes that would be very useful as I use my iPad far more than my iPhone. I don’t use WhatsApp that much but certain members of my family insist on using it so one feels the need to comply!
On 05/12/2022 06:58, Andy Hewitt wrote:
<snip for relevance>
OK,, understood. Although I must admit, I have always preferred having a
proper old fashioned printed manual if I was going to have one.
Agreed. I used to pay extra to get my Kitcar club mag in printed form
but they were pushing us to to go 'electronic' for several reasons and
so I did as requested. Now it comes monthly via an eMail attachment and
I never read it. ;-(
I mention these book because they're written by knowledgable people,
well respected in the Apple user community, and they write them based on
actual use of the products. They contain lots of additional information
that isn't included in the official documentations (such as tips on
stuff that doesn't work as expected).
OK, I might give one a go but I have a horrible feeling it will remain unused. I'm not a reader. I find reading (for fun) slow and difficult
because I probably have ADHD or some other 'issue' and so will only read
(for fun) because there is nothing better to do (like when commuting on
the train). I even less enjoy 'reading' instruction manuals as I
generally get to p80/100 before I learn *anything* I couldn't or haven't found out by exploring.
<snip>
OK, it doesn't come across like like, it's just sounding like a whinge :-/.
Then may I suggest you reset your whinge thresholds, especially where I
am concerned (it seems) as the vast majority of people posting here are whinging about something and something Apple! ;-)
This is what I was saying about you and your triggers re me (in
particular). It's like because you don't get a positive check on my
Apple Paid Up Membership club, my motives are in some way different to
anyone else here when they aren't. I am trying to help someone who IS a
paid up Apple Club Member so it's her you should be seeing when I ask anything on her behalf here. ;-)
<snip>
I just find the continued use of the word 'unintuitive' to not be very
helpful, or even accurate.
When to the users who don't find the Apple UI intuitive that's exactly
what it is?
eg. I've only just retired my Mac Mini that you may remember I have been running with XP / Tiger for a good few years now. The Mini is still
running (minus the obligate dead optical drive). So, it was very easy to switch between OSX and XP and yet I rarely actually used OSX because not
only did it not work with as much hardware as XP, I didn't find the UI
as logical as XP and even though I tried many many times, and have had
to use it many many times whilst helping others (esp my Dad from his SE
to his CRT iMacs etc), it never became any more logical / intuitive,
even though I would say I was reasonably familiar with it.
EVEN to the point of the floating menu concept and how apps and system settings behaved differently for no reason given by even the most loyal
Apple user.
Am I saying therefore that any alternative OS or solution was 'better'
or 'superior' in any way? No, just that IMHO, the Apple stuff was less intuitive and where such often resulted me having to ask and the more
honest Apple users here conceeding 'yes, it is a bit weird'.
And I'm not even talking about things like not being easily able to
generate a text file on the desktop (right click, new, text doc etc).
Now *obviously* you and anyone who finds Windows / Linux 'unintuitive'
may well prefer the logic of the Apple UI's but that's their right isn't it?
Whilst this may be an Apple focussed group, it isn't an Apple *advocacy* group?
All it is, is that you, or other non-iOS users, simply don't know how
something works.
Well yes, however, given I've never read a Windows or Android guide or manual, how come I'm not constantly getting stuck with them?
See, what you (respectfully) don't seem to be able to accept /
comprehend ios that 'people are different' and because my neurological
makeup isn't the same as yours, I may not see things as you do and so
what I see is a very different thing to you. If I have ADHD, maybe my tolerance to things not being obvious, intuitive, especially things that
are 'regarded as being just that' aren't ... to me ... and all those who
feel the exact same way?
To be honest, if you're personally finding something 'unintuitive' with
an Apple product, and it's genuinely something that could be made
better, then why not tell Apple - they have a customer feedback system,
so if enough users complain of the same thing, it's possible they might
change it in future.
https://www.apple.com/feedback/
Because I'm not an Apple user and as you have confirmed the 'Apple way'
is obviously 'different' to say the MS / Android way so it's not for me
to offer feedback.
That's only any use if the people you're asking have the same reference
point. As it is, as a non-Android user, I have no idea what you're
talking about. It only has the affect of 'pissing off'.
But again you aren't the only person on here but do seem to be the only person who seems boithered by me / this issue?
Maybe the others also have or look after Android / Windows users or run
both themselves so don't have your 'anti' of the others (you stated you 'hated' Android for your own reasons etc)?
Like, should the phone answer / deny buttons be tiny and in the top rh
corner? Or is it a setting or what. That was a clue for you or anyone
to say 'No, they shouldn't be like that, they should be like on your
Android phone and big easy to use buttons, are you sure you haven't
turned XYZ mode on by mistake'?
OK, now you see, this is what's happened, the 'unintuitive' thing is
just a distraction (which is really my point).
See above. No distraction, real actual honest experience.
That's is just a simple setting. Which I fail to see as unintuitive.
It wasn't the idea it being a setting that wasn't unintuitive, it was
that the default action was as it was, virtually unusable to my Mum or
even 'most people' when taken in a real-world phone usage situation
(like you hear it ringing in your pocket, get it out and then try to
touch the tiny green icon next to the equally tiny red one). Mum denied
two calls before she answered one and she was sitting in the lounge with
the phone already in her hand!
Now to me, that's logically inside the 'Settings' icon. It's a problem
with the Phone settings, so I'd look in the Phone item in the Settings
list. There's an item called 'Incoming Calls' with 'Banner' next to it.
Select that, and you can change 'Banner' to 'Full Screen'.
Would that be helpful?
Of course ... now wouldn't that have been easier to do the first time
round? <weg>
Maybe I'm just used (from 10 years running a 'Telephone Help Desk' in particular) in listening though all the frustration, anger and
peripheral information and cutting to the bits I can actually deal with.
I believe that was something that changed with iOS16. Maybe not to
everyone's taste for sure, but it does have a user preference available
to revert back to the old way.
Do you not feel, that given the old way IS more useful, that IT should
have been left that way, even if alternatives were also available? Do
that seem logical, an intuitive thing to do to you OOI?
OK, understand that now. I guess they probably came across one of those
annoying third party 'insecure network' login screens.
Nope. She made the wireless connection (prompted by me over Whatsapp on
her Android phone) and couldn't get out of THAT screen. She couldn't
because there was no obvious 'back' button. She didn't know you had to upsweep the liute line at the bottom to close, go back (or whatever it actually does).
That's something
that's not an Apple thing,
Nope, it was (see above). Even if the 'button' is a virtual button,
there is still a 'button' on the phones we use.
and proprietary to whatever software the
hotel has implemented. I've seen those too, and they can be a bit crap.
Usually you just go back to the home screen once you're logged in (but
that's about the information they put on that screen).
Once you know HOW to go back to the home screen? When testing the 11 I
found myself pressing the side button, dabbing the screen in various
places before stumbling on what appeared to close the app, rather than
going 'back'. However, clumsy though that was, it seemed to allow us to
do what we wanted (of sorts) so we resigned ourselves to doing it that
way. Obviously Mum hadn't let my sister in on the secret. ;-)
Yeah, I was thinking more of changing all the devices to Android. But as
you say, it's a bit of work to transfer everything over, and syncing
stuff like that is not as 'intuitive' on the Android system ;-).
I'll (happily) take your word for that as I've never tried.
Although I would probably set it all up in an Amazon account and use
their cloud system. Although I dislike it due to privacy concerns.
Ok. Never really considered 'privacy' when it comes to Mums pictures. ;-)
One point in Apples favour there is the integrated service (one thing
they are good at, from the whole iPOd / iTunes / Store thing) and I've
not tried to set up similar between Android devices.
Indeed so, and that's a big reason I stick with Apple nowadays. I use
almost all of their iCloud system (Music, TV, News, Drive, Photos and
Email, Family Sharing and such). The integration of that lot is pretty
good.
And the only cloud based solution I used to use with any seriousness was Dropbox and only because I got a large boost in space free with a
Samsung phone. It was handy that it uploaded / backed-up my pictures to
the cloud but it then ran out of space so not really used it for a few
years now.
<snip>
Also, I think the Whatsapp app has grown more tolerant over the time,
like the number of concurrently connected devices going from 2 (phone
+ summat) to 4 or so and I think I saw something about it not needing
the phone to be online for the web version to still function,once
linked (*part* of her original issue using the iPad and the iPhone I
think).
Not yet, we're still waiting for a proper WhatsApp app for the iPad.
Yeah. I put 'a' Whatsapp messenger App on that she's been using for a
while and now also a link to the Web based interface as a desktop
shortcut (so two 'Whatsapps' but gave her some continuity / crossover).
They promised it about 18 months ago, but still no sign. I just use a
link in Safari, and use their Web version (tip, set up a Reading List
page as a quick link).
A reading list?
Andy Hewitt <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:
On 04/12/2022 22:59, T i m wrote:
On 04/12/2022 13:39, Andy Hewitt wrote:
Well, as far as I can see, your options for learning something, are to >>>> use a manual, buy a better manual (that's not a new thing), get
someone to teach you (and remember what you're taught), or learn by
trial and error.
I think that options one and one(a) (reading manuals) aren't going to be >>> that much use to Mum and have never really been a solution to me,
outside of any hidden / specifics I need to look up, rather than
explore. The mentoring is ok (for Mum) if it can be offered piecemeal
and on demand (not practical as no one we are aware of that is very
local to Mum is an Apple user) so it's likely to be a combo of trial and >>> error with some tech questions by me here as / when something I can't
explore through myself.
Having been doing something similar recently, what I've done is set up an
old tablet (Surface Pro 2) with FydeOS, which is a version of ChromeOS that can run Android apps. I could have bought a Chromebook/tablet for an out of the box experience, but I thought I'd give this a go first.
One nice thing about ChromeOS is that remote support is fairly easy:
1. Start the Chrome Remote Access app (I've pinned it to the taskbar)
2. Press 'Start a remote access session'
3. A 12 digit code is printed: tell that to your helper
4. The helper connects to the remote access site in their browser
5. On the tablet there's a popup saying helper-name@gmail.com
wants to connect
6. Press 'allow'
7. Now the helper can see your screen and has control over it
8. Helper can perform whatever the procedure is, talking you through as necessary
I've done remote access from laptop to tablet side by side, running the Google Maps android app, and performance is pretty good moving around the map, with only a tiny amount of lag and sharpness loss of the imagery.
I wish there was something like this for iOS, but there isn't.
Of course it
could be abused for nefarious purposes, but it is basically impossible to do remote support of iPads and iPhones if you can't see what's going on or have to relay actions by voice ('click the thing, no not that thing, the button that looks a bit like a fish, oh no you pressed the wrong one, we need to go back', etc)
The chances are I'm only posting here when I have an issue and that
issue is often only an issue to me because it's not intuitive, something >>> it should be considering these are generally 'user level' devices we are >>> talking about? Surely 40 years in IT support and helping all sorts of
people with all sorts of kit most my life wouldn't make the Apple UI
*more* difficult to me (and given I'm only involved because someone else >>> can't make it work either)?
I just find the continued use of the word 'unintuitive' to not be very
helpful, or even accurate. That's just an individual perception. As a
point, the Apple systems have probably been regarded as some of the most
intuitive stuff ever creative with regard to tech stuff.
IMO 'intuitive' is just code for 'like something you've used before'.
For example, swiping in from different edges of your phone isn't 'intuitive' unless you have experienced that on another device: it's a behaviour you
have to learn.
Once you've learnt it, you might try it on a new device to
see if it does anything. But somebody who hasn't used a phone before likely wouldn't think of doing it in a million years.
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On 04/12/2022 22:59, T i m wrote:
Like, should the phone answer / deny buttons be tiny and in the top rh
corner? Or is it a setting or what. That was a clue for you or anyone to >>> say 'No, they shouldn't be like that, they should be like on your
Android phone and big easy to use buttons, are you sure you haven't
turned XYZ mode on by mistake'?
That's the bit that confuses me, I normally get red and green buttons
centre bottom of the display.
I think it depends on the context. The big buttons appear on the Lock
Screen, but if you’re using the phone, it has the option to use either a small banner, or you can switch it back to the old full screen buttons.
In fact, ISTR some comments in the past about preferring them not to take over the whole screen.
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On 04/12/2022 22:59, T i m wrote:
Like, should the phone answer / deny buttons be tiny and in the top rh
corner? Or is it a setting or what. That was a clue for you or anyone to >>> say 'No, they shouldn't be like that, they should be like on your
Android phone and big easy to use buttons, are you sure you haven't
turned XYZ mode on by mistake'?
That's the bit that confuses me, I normally get red and green buttons
centre bottom of the display.
I think it depends on the context. The big buttons appear on the Lock
Screen,
but if you’re using the phone, it has the option to use either a
small banner,
or you can switch it back to the old full screen buttons.
In fact, ISTR some comments in the past about preferring them not to take over the whole screen.
On 04/12/2022 22:59, T i m wrote:
Like, should the phone answer / deny buttons be tiny and in the top rh
corner? Or is it a setting or what. That was a clue for you or anyone
to say 'No, they shouldn't be like that, they should be like on your
Android phone and big easy to use buttons, are you sure you haven't
turned XYZ mode on by mistake'?
That's the bit that confuses me, I normally get red and green buttons
centre bottom of the display.
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On 04/12/2022 22:59, T i m wrote:
Like, should the phone answer / deny buttons be tiny and in the top rh
corner? Or is it a setting or what. That was a clue for you or anyone to >>> say 'No, they shouldn't be like that, they should be like on your
Android phone and big easy to use buttons, are you sure you haven't
turned XYZ mode on by mistake'?
That's the bit that confuses me, I normally get red and green buttons
centre bottom of the display.
I think it depends on the context. The big buttons appear on the Lock
Screen, but if you’re using the phone, it has the option to use either a small banner, or you can switch it back to the old full screen buttons.
In fact, ISTR some comments in the past about preferring them not to take over the whole screen.
Phone locked - swipe to answer.
Phone unlocked - tap the button (the
locked/swipe thing is so you don't accidentaly press a button when it's
in a pocket or bag).
You can choose banner or full-screen for the button interface in
Settings -> Phone
T i m <individual@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
On 29/11/2022 23:59, Chris wrote:
T i m <individual@spaced.me.uk> wrote:Thanks. We didn't have the time we needed to spend much time getting Mum
Given how good Apple is (supposed to be with) UI's (they have never
worked for me or our daughter), you would think there would be a 'Basic >>>> mode' that shut off all the features that are very likely to make things >>>> much more complicated?
You may find what you're looking for in the accessibility options. In iOS >>> they are very extensive, however, I'm not familiar with them so can't guide >>> you I'm afraid.
up to speed on her new iPhone 11 but did want to get it to her before
they all went on holiday.
Given the amount of faff and time you've wasted on this why don't you just get her an android phone as clearly she nor you are able to achieve what is needed.
My mum had a samsung for years which she called her iphone.
On 05/12/2022 11:09, Andy Hewitt wrote:
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On 04/12/2022 22:59, T i m wrote:
Like, should the phone answer / deny buttons be tiny and in the top rh >>>> corner? Or is it a setting or what. That was a clue for you or
anyone to
say 'No, they shouldn't be like that, they should be like on your
Android phone and big easy to use buttons, are you sure you haven't
turned XYZ mode on by mistake'?
That's the bit that confuses me, I normally get red and green buttons
centre bottom of the display.
I think it depends on the context. The big buttons appear on the Lock
Screen, but if you’re using the phone, it has the option to use either a >> small banner, or you can switch it back to the old full screen buttons.
In fact, ISTR some comments in the past about preferring them not to take
over the whole screen.
That would explain it.
On 05/12/2022 11:09, Andy Hewitt wrote:
In fact, ISTR some comments in the past about preferring them not to takeStrange, given you have someone calling you at that time. ;-)
over the whole screen.
On 05/12/2022 12:40, Mark wrote:
<snip>
Phone locked - swipe to answer.
Is there any indication on the phone that that's what you need to do Mark
On 2022-12-05 13:42:42 +0000, T i m <individual@spaced.me.uk> said:
On 05/12/2022 12:40, Mark wrote:
<snip>
Phone locked - swipe to answer.
Is there any indication on the phone that that's what you need to do Mark
Yes - it says 'slide to answer'.
T i m <individual@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
On 05/12/2022 11:09, Andy Hewitt wrote:
In fact, ISTR some comments in the past about preferring them not to take >>> over the whole screen.Strange, given you have someone calling you at that time. ;-)
Why strange? It all depends on what your priority is at that time.
The
incoming call banner displays the caller ID, so you could make an easy decision not to answer.
I may have discounted the thought of the Apple UI way as just being
'Apple' and thought that might have been how it was on Mums older iPhone
so *she* would be used to it?
On 05/12/2022 13:56, Andy Hewitt wrote:
Strange, given you have someone calling you at that time. ;-)
Why strange? It all depends on what your priority is at that time.
Quite. For someone to ba calling my Mum it would have to be be fairly
urgent and she would be unlikely to intentionally ignore it under most circumstances (where it would be on).
Maybe it's because I've always been in 'support' I can't just ignore in incoming call (if I have the choice so when not driving etc).
TheWould that also be the persons name if they were in your contacts list?
incoming call banner displays the caller ID, so you could make an easy
decision not to answer.
Does this also not appear on the phone when you have big buttons enabled
OOI?
Of course if you’ve switched from a phone that had a ‘Home’ button, to one
without, it is of course different, but it’s still just a basic operation, that you need to know from the outset.
On 5 Dec 2022 at 12:12:03 GMT, "Andy Hewitt" <thewildrover@icloud.com>
wrote:
Of course if you’ve switched from a phone that had a ‘Home’ button, to one
without, it is of course different, but it’s still just a basic operation, >> that you need to know from the outset.
Did this last night with the mother in law. Her old iPhone recently fell
out of the upgrade cycle, and she said she'd rather swap to the new
style now while she's still got some brains left. She's 86 and can feel
she's slowing down and getting forgetful, and she was never tech-savvy
in the first place - regularly gets confused by her single TV remote.
Upgraded iPhone 7->13 and iPad Air 2->Air 2021 so that both her things
go from button to no-button. Neither are new, reallocated from my house
- I've gone back to my Xs Max and her Air 2.
Almost everything went along perfectly with device-to-device transfer
(three apps didn't - the perennial favourite arse WhatsApp, which
thankfully just needed to revalidate itself with an SMS; her mobile
phone provider's app which had to be manually logged in again; same for
the local library app).
We set up FaceID, which got her past the annoyance where her fingers are
so printless she can only use touchID about 50% of the time. The iPad I removed the lockscreen and it has a 'wake on open' magnetic latch case.
Sorted her charging space out with an iPad colour matching USB-C cable
and iPhone colour matching Lightning next to the Watch charger.
Converting to the new devices was then a matter of much reassurance and seeing that they're *exactly the same* on screen, except for the button
which is now replaced with a finger flick up from the bottom. Took her exactly three tries to settle into that change.
Today she's been happily texting and calling and hasn't asked any
questions about the things at all, so that seems pretty solid.
I wish there was something like this for iOS, but there isn't.
Now that is genius, I hadn't thought of that. My wife does get confused
with the connections too (only 61). She was wondering why something
wasn't charging, and the connection was 'a bit floppy', not too long
ago. She was putting a Lightning connector into a USB-C port (although
that wasn't an iDevice).
I have some enamel model paints here, so I might try painting the
connector bodies with some kind of coding.
On 04/12/2022 10:19, Chris wrote:
T i m <individual@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
On 29/11/2022 23:59, Chris wrote:
T i m <individual@spaced.me.uk> wrote:Thanks. We didn't have the time we needed to spend much time getting Mum >>> up to speed on her new iPhone 11 but did want to get it to her before
Given how good Apple is (supposed to be with) UI's (they have never
worked for me or our daughter), you would think there would be a 'Basic >>>>> mode' that shut off all the features that are very likely to make things >>>>> much more complicated?
You may find what you're looking for in the accessibility options. In iOS >>>> they are very extensive, however, I'm not familiar with them so can't guide
you I'm afraid.
they all went on holiday.
Given the amount of faff and time you've wasted on this why don't you just >> get her an android phone as clearly she nor you are able to achieve what is >> needed.
Not read the whole thread then Chris?
My mum had a samsung for years which she called her iphone.My Mum always refers to her iPhone and iPad as just that but I can see
why you might not have *bothered* putting your Mum straight. ;-)
Would that also be the persons name if they were in your contacts list?
Yes. If you make sure all your important contacts, like family members, friends, maybe doctor too, or any other contact that's likely to make a
call, are all in there, it will display their name as the caller on the screen.
Then if you see an unidentified number, then it'll be more likely to be
a cold caller/scammer. Although a lot of legit businesses still block
their own caller ID, and come up a withheld number (my own doctor does
this, annoyingly).
Does this also not appear on the phone when you have big buttons
enabled OOI?
As far as I can remember, I see a contact name, a number, or 'number withheld' message on any incoming call. It just happens, and I haven't
really taken much notice of the exact details to be fair, stuff just
works ;-).
On 5 Dec 2022 at 10:56:31 GMT, "Theo"
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
I wish there was something like this for iOS, but there isn't.
Facetime will allow support viewing of another iPhone/iPad screen, which
is 80% of the battle
Although of course it doesn't help. My wife's mum had dementia, and
before she went into care, it was common to find the TV remote in the freezer, or similar.
That's handy, although I haven't set the auto unlock thing, I still have
to swipe up. But I wish I'd gone with FaceID ages ago, it's so much
easier than fiddling with a thumb print (especially as I work outside,
and get grubby, damp and cold, which often makes my prints unreadable).
Sorted her charging space out with an iPad colour matching USB-C cable
and iPhone colour matching Lightning next to the Watch charger.
Now that is genius, I hadn't thought of that. My wife does get confused
with the connections too (only 61). She was wondering why something
wasn't charging, and the connection was 'a bit floppy', not too long
ago. She was putting a Lightning connector into a USB-C port (although
that wasn't an iDevice).
Did this last night with the mother in law. Her old iPhone recently fell
out of the upgrade cycle, and she said she'd rather swap to the new
style now while she's still got some brains left.
She's 86 and can feel
she's slowing down and getting forgetful, and she was never tech-savvy
in the first place - regularly gets confused by her single TV remote.
Upgraded iPhone 7->13 and iPad Air 2->Air 2021 so that both her things
go from button to no-button. Neither are new, reallocated from my house
- I've gone back to my Xs Max and her Air 2.
Almost everything went along perfectly with device-to-device transfer
We set up FaceID, which got her past the annoyance where her fingers are
so printless she can only use touchID about 50% of the time.
The iPad I
removed the lockscreen and it has a 'wake on open' magnetic latch case.
Sorted her charging space out with an iPad colour matching USB-C cable
and iPhone colour matching Lightning next to the Watch charger.
Converting to the new devices was then a matter of much reassurance and seeing that they're *exactly the same* on screen,
except for the button
which is now replaced with a finger flick up from the bottom. Took her exactly three tries to settle into that change.
Today she's been happily texting and calling and hasn't asked any
questions about the things at all, so that seems pretty solid.
except for the button
which is now replaced with a finger flick up from the bottom. Took her
exactly three tries to settle into that change.
It took Mum a bit longer but that could be because of the clear bumper
case I put on it for her? I
On 5 Dec 2022 at 17:51:19 GMT, "Andy Hewitt" <thewildrover@icloud.com>
wrote:
Now that is genius, I hadn't thought of that. My wife does get confused
with the connections too (only 61). She was wondering why something
wasn't charging, and the connection was 'a bit floppy', not too long
ago. She was putting a Lightning connector into a USB-C port (although
that wasn't an iDevice).
Gosh. Does that not shatter the tongue in the USB-C port?
I have some enamel model paints here, so I might try painting the
connector bodies with some kind of coding.
Happenstance that it was a white iPhone and black iPad made this trick a
lot easier :)
On 5 Dec 2022 at 10:56:31 GMT, "Theo"
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
I wish there was something like this for iOS, but there isn't.
Facetime will allow support viewing of another iPhone/iPad screen, which
is 80% of the battle
https://support.apple.com/en-me/HT212734
Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@usually.sessile.org> wrote:
On 5 Dec 2022 at 10:56:31 GMT, "Theo"
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
I wish there was something like this for iOS, but there isn't.
Facetime will allow support viewing of another iPhone/iPad screen, which
is 80% of the battle
https://support.apple.com/en-me/HT212734
It would help, but I fear that might also contribute to troubles:
"click <thing>, no not that, oh we're in the wrong screen, now go to the top left and click the back arrow, oh you missed that, ok let's start again..."
rapidly followed by patience being exhausted and the device being abandoned in a drawer.
Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@usually.sessile.org> wrote:
On 5 Dec 2022 at 10:56:31 GMT, "Theo"
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
I wish there was something like this for iOS, but there isn't.
Facetime will allow support viewing of another iPhone/iPad screen, which
is 80% of the battle
https://support.apple.com/en-me/HT212734
It would help, but I fear that might also contribute to troubles:
"click <thing>, no not that, oh we're in the wrong screen, now go to the top left and click the back arrow, oh you missed that, ok let's start again..."
rapidly followed by patience being exhausted and the device being abandoned in a drawer.
On 4 Dec 2022 at 10:23:09 GMT, "T i m" <individual@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
I may have discounted the thought of the Apple UI way as just being
'Apple' and thought that might have been how it was on Mums older iPhone
so *she* would be used to it?
The issue sounds like it's that both telephone and WhatsApp voice are in
use, and they have different answering and audio screens. There's fuck
all you can do about that, unfortunately. WhatsApp certainly don't care
about making native-look screens.
On 05/12/2022 17:11, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote:
On 4 Dec 2022 at 10:23:09 GMT, "T i m" <individual@spaced.me.uk> wrote:Understood, if that was the case and it certainly not the case in the
I may have discounted the thought of the Apple UI way as just being
'Apple' and thought that might have been how it was on Mums older iPhone >>> so *she* would be used to it?
The issue sounds like it's that both telephone and WhatsApp voice are in
use, and they have different answering and audio screens. There's fuck
all you can do about that, unfortunately. WhatsApp certainly don't care
about making native-look screens.
case of the tests I was doing with her the other day on the iPhone 11?
We were sat side by side, I *rang* her from my mobile and I saw the
small icon thing.
What I was saying is that *maybe* that's how it was all along on her old iPhone, just that I wasn't there when anyone rang her (and few people
did [1]) but from what Andy H got round to saying <g>, that it's the new default (by 'popular request') but you can still turn it back to
something that would likely be more useful to people actually / mostly
using it as 'a phone' and so give priority to that function.
Cheers, T i m
[1] The only time I have rung her mobile is when I get a call from her
panic button monitoring company and I try all the means of contacting
her or the close family to find out if she's ok or not before driving
there myself.
I did yet the distinction makes little difference to some people.
She now
has a real iphone.
[1] The only time I have rung her mobile is when I get a call from her
panic button monitoring company and I try all the means of contacting
her or the close family to find out if she's ok or not before driving
there myself.
Yes, there's also the lockscreen vs open UIs.
Plenty of ways to get it
confusing unfortunately.
Always the same green button/red button though,
I thiiiiiink?
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