On Wed, 11/20/2024 4:25 PM, Andrew wrote:
I bought an upgrade package (*)from Novatech, Portsmouth back
in 2011 which allowed them to sell a Win 7 Pro OEM disk,
but I chose to install the 32 bit version back then because
I still had an expensive Nikon slide scanner that did not
have 64 bit drivers.
This has now upgraded my PC to a Win 10 Pro 32 bit installation
which, AFAIK still only uses 3Gb out of the 4Gb installed.
Adding another 4Gb ram is apparently pointless with a
32 bit install.
(*) Gigabyte 880m M/B + 4Gb DDR3? + x6 1055T AMD
Windows PRo 7 OEM Upgrade
4GB Address License +-------------------+
| PCI Bus 256MB |
+-------------------+
| PCIe Bus 256MB+ |
| Video Card Amount |
+-------------------+
| Mapped system RAM | <=== Insert 4GB of RAM,
| | see 3.25GB if your
+-------------------+ video card has little VRAM
Back in the day, if you had a 2GB video card,
it ruined your available System RAM value.
Strictly speaking, a 32 bit OS could use the 64GB PAE
mapping option that Intel invented in the
Pentium III era. But each program would still have
a 2GB limit, and so you could run 32 programs of 2GB
each if your 64GB machine had a 32 bit OS that understands
how to use PAE. A program like 32-bit Thunderbird, would
still have a 2GB limit.
*******
The hardware has the ability to hoist RAM. That means,
if it wanted, it can have a chunk from 0-3GB, a 1GB "hole"
for the busses, then lift the last gigabyte between
4GB-5GB in the address space. But 32-bit Windows won't
do that (the memory hoisted to 4GB-5GB is ignored).
Such hoisting is done on 64 bit OSes. You would have
RAM from 0-3GB, RAM from 4GB-5GB, for a total of 4GB
of physical RAM mapped to the address space.
*******
The rules have changed a bit for W10/W11, in that
W10 being the last OS with a 32-bit version, when
Win10 32-bit uses an 8GB video card, the video card
does not cause the OS to die on the spot. It seems
an 8GB video card, only 2GB of it is mapped. I don't
know any more about it, except to watch for the behavior
(of a video card apparently not being entirely mapped).
Paul
On 22/11/2024 21:18, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 11/20/2024 4:25 PM, Andrew wrote:
I bought an upgrade package (*)from Novatech, Portsmouth back
in 2011 which allowed them to sell a Win 7 Pro OEM disk,
but I chose to install the 32 bit version back then because
I still had an expensive Nikon slide scanner that did not
have 64 bit drivers.
This has now upgraded my PC to a Win 10 Pro 32 bit installation
which, AFAIK still only uses 3Gb out of the 4Gb installed.
Adding another 4Gb ram is apparently pointless with a
32 bit install.
(*) Gigabyte 880m M/B + 4Gb DDR3? + x6 1055T AMD
Windows PRo 7 OEM Upgrade
4GB Address License +-------------------+
| PCI Bus 256MB |
+-------------------+
| PCIe Bus 256MB+ |
| Video Card Amount |
+-------------------+
| Mapped system RAM | <=== Insert 4GB of RAM,
| | see 3.25GB if your
+-------------------+ video card has little VRAM
Back in the day, if you had a 2GB video card,
it ruined your available System RAM value.
Strictly speaking, a 32 bit OS could use the 64GB PAE
mapping option that Intel invented in the
Pentium III era. But each program would still have
a 2GB limit, and so you could run 32 programs of 2GB
each if your 64GB machine had a 32 bit OS that understands
how to use PAE. A program like 32-bit Thunderbird, would
still have a 2GB limit.
*******
The hardware has the ability to hoist RAM. That means,
if it wanted, it can have a chunk from 0-3GB, a 1GB "hole"
for the busses, then lift the last gigabyte between
4GB-5GB in the address space. But 32-bit Windows won't
do that (the memory hoisted to 4GB-5GB is ignored).
Such hoisting is done on 64 bit OSes. You would have
RAM from 0-3GB, RAM from 4GB-5GB, for a total of 4GB
of physical RAM mapped to the address space.
*******
The rules have changed a bit for W10/W11, in that
W10 being the last OS with a 32-bit version, when
Win10 32-bit uses an 8GB video card, the video card
does not cause the OS to die on the spot. It seems
an 8GB video card, only 2GB of it is mapped. I don't
know any more about it, except to watch for the behavior
(of a video card apparently not being entirely mapped).
Paul
I do have an nVidia GEForce 210 video card with 1024MB
ram, bought new in PC worlds sale in Jan 2015, but never
installed. It says PCIe 2.0 on the box.
Manual says it needs a 300 watt power supply but elsewhere
it says that it needs 18amps @ 12v.
The PS in my PC dates back to 1996-ish (I think) and says -
ADVANCE MPT-400
400 watts max
+3.3v 22A purple
+12V 15A yellow <<<< too low
-12V 0.8A blue
+5V 35A red
-5V 0.5A white
+5vSB 3A brown
+3.3V & +5V combined load 210 watts
+3.3V, 5V & +12V combined load 380 watts
P.G. (Orange), PS-ON (Gray), GND (Black)
Not withstanding the 12V deficiency of -3A,
would installing this card release more PC ram
for use by Win10 etc ?.
I may be tempting fate by installing this card. This
power supply seems to be hanging on really well after
so many yearsand its the PC that I use for online banking,
ISA & SIPP stuff and I don't want it to expire in smoke.
Andrew
On 22/11/2024 21:18, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 11/20/2024 4:25 PM, Andrew wrote:
I bought an upgrade package (*)from Novatech, Portsmouth back
in 2011 which allowed them to sell a Win 7 Pro OEM disk,
but I chose to install the 32 bit version back then because
I still had an expensive Nikon slide scanner that did not
have 64 bit drivers.
This has now upgraded my PC to a Win 10 Pro 32 bit installation
which, AFAIK still only uses 3Gb out of the 4Gb installed.
Adding another 4Gb ram is apparently pointless with a
32 bit install.
(*) Gigabyte 880m M/B + 4Gb DDR3? + x6 1055T AMD
Windows PRo 7 OEM Upgrade
4GB Address License +-------------------+
| PCI Bus 256MB |
+-------------------+
| PCIe Bus 256MB+ |
| Video Card Amount |
+-------------------+
| Mapped system RAM | <=== Insert 4GB of RAM,
| | see 3.25GB if your
+-------------------+ video card has
little VRAM
Back in the day, if you had a 2GB video card,
it ruined your available System RAM value.
Strictly speaking, a 32 bit OS could use the 64GB PAE
mapping option that Intel invented in the
Pentium III era. But each program would still have
a 2GB limit, and so you could run 32 programs of 2GB
each if your 64GB machine had a 32 bit OS that understands
how to use PAE. A program like 32-bit Thunderbird, would
still have a 2GB limit.
*******
The hardware has the ability to hoist RAM. That means,
if it wanted, it can have a chunk from 0-3GB, a 1GB "hole"
for the busses, then lift the last gigabyte between
4GB-5GB in the address space. But 32-bit Windows won't
do that (the memory hoisted to 4GB-5GB is ignored).
Such hoisting is done on 64 bit OSes. You would have
RAM from 0-3GB, RAM from 4GB-5GB, for a total of 4GB
of physical RAM mapped to the address space.
*******
The rules have changed a bit for W10/W11, in that
W10 being the last OS with a 32-bit version, when
Win10 32-bit uses an 8GB video card, the video card
does not cause the OS to die on the spot. It seems
an 8GB video card, only 2GB of it is mapped. I don't
know any more about it, except to watch for the behavior
(of a video card apparently not being entirely mapped).
Paul
I do have an nVidia GEForce 210 video card with 1024MB
ram, bought new in PC worlds sale in Jan 2015, but never
installed. It says PCIe 2.0 on the box.
Manual says it needs a 300 watt power supply but elsewhere
it says that it needs 18amps @ 12v.
The PS in my PC dates back to 1996-ish (I think) and says -
ADVANCE MPT-400
400 watts max
+3.3v 22A purple
+12V 15A yellow <<<< too low
-12V 0.8A blue
+5V 35A red
-5V 0.5A white
+5vSB 3A brown
+3.3V & +5V combined load 210 watts
+3.3V, 5V & +12V combined load 380 watts
P.G. (Orange), PS-ON (Gray), GND (Black)
Not withstanding the 12V deficiency of -3A,
would installing this card release more PC ram
for use by Win10 etc ?.
I may be tempting fate by installing this card. This
power supply seems to be hanging on really well after
so many yearsand its the PC that I use for online banking,
ISA & SIPP stuff and I don't want it to expire in smoke.
Andrew
On Wed, 11/27/2024 3:56 PM, Andrew wrote:
On 22/11/2024 21:18, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 11/20/2024 4:25 PM, Andrew wrote:
I bought an upgrade package (*)from Novatech, Portsmouth back
in 2011 which allowed them to sell a Win 7 Pro OEM disk,
but I chose to install the 32 bit version back then because
I still had an expensive Nikon slide scanner that did not
have 64 bit drivers.
This has now upgraded my PC to a Win 10 Pro 32 bit installation
which, AFAIK still only uses 3Gb out of the 4Gb installed.
Adding another 4Gb ram is apparently pointless with a
32 bit install.
(*) Gigabyte 880m M/B + 4Gb DDR3? + x6 1055T AMD
Windows PRo 7 OEM Upgrade
4GB Address License +-------------------+
| PCI Bus 256MB | >>> +-------------------+
| PCIe Bus 256MB+ |
| Video Card Amount |
+-------------------+
| Mapped system RAM | <=== Insert 4GB of RAM,
| | see 3.25GB if your
+-------------------+ video card has little VRAM
Back in the day, if you had a 2GB video card,
it ruined your available System RAM value.
Strictly speaking, a 32 bit OS could use the 64GB PAE
mapping option that Intel invented in the
Pentium III era. But each program would still have
a 2GB limit, and so you could run 32 programs of 2GB
each if your 64GB machine had a 32 bit OS that understands
how to use PAE. A program like 32-bit Thunderbird, would
still have a 2GB limit.
*******
The hardware has the ability to hoist RAM. That means,
if it wanted, it can have a chunk from 0-3GB, a 1GB "hole"
for the busses, then lift the last gigabyte between
4GB-5GB in the address space. But 32-bit Windows won't
do that (the memory hoisted to 4GB-5GB is ignored).
Such hoisting is done on 64 bit OSes. You would have
RAM from 0-3GB, RAM from 4GB-5GB, for a total of 4GB
of physical RAM mapped to the address space.
*******
The rules have changed a bit for W10/W11, in that
W10 being the last OS with a 32-bit version, when
Win10 32-bit uses an 8GB video card, the video card
does not cause the OS to die on the spot. It seems
an 8GB video card, only 2GB of it is mapped. I don't
know any more about it, except to watch for the behavior
(of a video card apparently not being entirely mapped).
Paul
I do have an nVidia GEForce 210 video card with 1024MB
ram, bought new in PC worlds sale in Jan 2015, but never
installed. It says PCIe 2.0 on the box.
Manual says it needs a 300 watt power supply but elsewhere
it says that it needs 18amps @ 12v.
The PS in my PC dates back to 1996-ish (I think) and says -
ADVANCE MPT-400
400 watts max
+3.3v 22A purple
+12V 15A yellow <<<< too low
-12V 0.8A blue
+5V 35A red
-5V 0.5A white
+5vSB 3A brown
+3.3V & +5V combined load 210 watts
+3.3V, 5V & +12V combined load 380 watts
P.G. (Orange), PS-ON (Gray), GND (Black)
Not withstanding the 12V deficiency of -3A,
would installing this card release more PC ram
for use by Win10 etc ?.
I may be tempting fate by installing this card. This
power supply seems to be hanging on really well after
so many yearsand its the PC that I use for online banking,
ISA & SIPP stuff and I don't want it to expire in smoke.
Andrew
Yes, that is an old supply.
How can I tell ? It has a -5V output on it.
Supplies back then, had more robust lower rails.
Whereas supplies today have a lot more +12V amps.
The 5V @ 35A will run an AthlonXP, with margin.
My Nforce2 board, runs the processor off +5V instead
of from +12V. That's why the +12V is relatively lame.
*******
The Geforce 210 is 31W TDP, and is slot powered. The Advance supply
would not have a PCIe 2x3 or 2x4 power connector. That came later
as a connector type.
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/geforce-210.c2020
TDP 31 W <=== This is a number we can use
Suggested PSU 200 W <=== Suggestions like this, are highly specious.
The slot has two power rails. It has 3.3V and 12V.
Using our vivid imaginations, we could assume 3.3V @ 3A for the RAM power. Leaving 21W from the load, to be satisfied by 12V @ 2A from the supply.
That means you have 12V @ 13A left.
You did not state what your processor was, and without a
motherboard make and model, I can't even fake it by looking
at the supported CPU table and picking out plumbs. If the
current motherboard on that ancient PSU is at all modern,
Intel has some pretty nasty behaviors, such as drawing 228W
during the turbo interval. Older equipment does not behave
that way. For example, I used to have an 89W Pentium4, and
I measured and it drew 89W. Later, the Core2 era,
the two Core2 65W processors I owned, one drew 36W,
one drew 43W max. These were using different geometry silicon,
so were not equal model numbers. On the newer stuff, you can turn
off turbo, if there is a reason to be doing that.
If that's a 65W processor (like my E8400 Core2 example),
then there would be no concern on a 12V @ 13A remaining output.
You'd have enough room for a couple drives, a DVD, and 6A for the CPU.
But just generally speaking, it's a supply from a different era,
and optimized for that era. That's why it has so much +5V on it.
I usually allocate 50W consumption on 3.3V and 5V, which
covers chipset and DIMM consumption. That's if you were wanting
to work out an estimate of "total system power". DIMM power is quoted/specified, using an "industry standard cycle mix". For example,
a write cycle (writing one cache line, of a cache line burst), the
DIMM might run at 4W for that cycle. Then drops back to 1W for
some of the lamer cycles. We end up with an "averaged" consumption
as our DIMM estimate. And the value is not 25W per DIMM, as some
genius proposed years ago.
The "warmest" RAM, was RAMBUS, where one chip was active at a time,
and connected via a high speed serial bus (the chips on the DIMM
were in a "chain"). Those had heat spreaders riveted to them, for the
purpose of moving a 4W hotspot, over more of the surface of the DIMM.
The RAM we use today, has uniform heat output over the chips, which is
why putting metal plates on them is unnecessary. During "active" cycles,
all the chips kick out heat. During "lame" cycles, the chips rest. And
the chip averages out the thermals over time, to some value. Autorefresh (sleep) draws about 1 watt per DIMM.
I just toss in 50W or so, for the intangible portion of consumption.
I've had idle computer numbers here, of 22W, so the number has dropped
with generation. The 50W value might have been good in the
SLI era (two PCIe slots for video, Northbridge chip draws a lot of power).
Paul
On 27/11/2024 20:56, Andrew wrote:
On 22/11/2024 21:18, Paul wrote:No.
On Wed, 11/20/2024 4:25 PM, Andrew wrote:
I bought an upgrade package (*)from Novatech, Portsmouth back
in 2011 which allowed them to sell a Win 7 Pro OEM disk,
but I chose to install the 32 bit version back then because
I still had an expensive Nikon slide scanner that did not
have 64 bit drivers.
This has now upgraded my PC to a Win 10 Pro 32 bit installation
which, AFAIK still only uses 3Gb out of the 4Gb installed.
Adding another 4Gb ram is apparently pointless with a
32 bit install.
(*) Gigabyte 880m M/B + 4Gb DDR3? + x6 1055T AMD
Windows PRo 7 OEM Upgrade
4GB Address License +-------------------+
| PCI Bus 256MB | >>> +-------------------+
| PCIe Bus 256MB+ |
| Video Card Amount |
+-------------------+
| Mapped system RAM | <=== Insert 4GB of RAM,
| | see 3.25GB if your
+-------------------+ video card has
little VRAM
Back in the day, if you had a 2GB video card,
it ruined your available System RAM value.
Strictly speaking, a 32 bit OS could use the 64GB PAE
mapping option that Intel invented in the
Pentium III era. But each program would still have
a 2GB limit, and so you could run 32 programs of 2GB
each if your 64GB machine had a 32 bit OS that understands
how to use PAE. A program like 32-bit Thunderbird, would
still have a 2GB limit.
*******
The hardware has the ability to hoist RAM. That means,
if it wanted, it can have a chunk from 0-3GB, a 1GB "hole"
for the busses, then lift the last gigabyte between
4GB-5GB in the address space. But 32-bit Windows won't
do that (the memory hoisted to 4GB-5GB is ignored).
Such hoisting is done on 64 bit OSes. You would have
RAM from 0-3GB, RAM from 4GB-5GB, for a total of 4GB
of physical RAM mapped to the address space.
*******
The rules have changed a bit for W10/W11, in that
W10 being the last OS with a 32-bit version, when
Win10 32-bit uses an 8GB video card, the video card
does not cause the OS to die on the spot. It seems
an 8GB video card, only 2GB of it is mapped. I don't
know any more about it, except to watch for the behavior
(of a video card apparently not being entirely mapped).
Paul
I do have an nVidia GEForce 210 video card with 1024MB
ram, bought new in PC worlds sale in Jan 2015, but never
installed. It says PCIe 2.0 on the box.
Manual says it needs a 300 watt power supply but elsewhere
it says that it needs 18amps @ 12v.
The PS in my PC dates back to 1996-ish (I think) and says -
ADVANCE MPT-400
400 watts max
+3.3v 22A purple
+12V 15A yellow <<<< too low
-12V 0.8A blue
+5V 35A red
-5V 0.5A white
+5vSB 3A brown
+3.3V & +5V combined load 210 watts
+3.3V, 5V & +12V combined load 380 watts
P.G. (Orange), PS-ON (Gray), GND (Black)
Not withstanding the 12V deficiency of -3A,
would installing this card release more PC ram
for use by Win10 etc ?.
Ive used that card, It gives fast graphics but no more RAM
I may be tempting fate by installing this card. ThisIt wont suck full power just displaying winders.
power supply seems to be hanging on really well after
so many yearsand its the PC that I use for online banking,
ISA & SIPP stuff and I don't want it to expire in smoke.
If you want more ram fit more ram, or buy a better computer
Andrew
You cannot fit 'more ram' to a 32-bit Windows installation.
The next computer will be an M4 Mac mini
Andrew wrote:
You cannot fit 'more ram' to a 32-bit Windows installation.
The next computer will be an M4 Mac mini
You can't fit more RAM to those either, and it's silly money to buy the models that come with more RAM ... more SSD ... more cores ... faster NIC
On 28/11/2024 09:04, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
It wont suck full power just displaying winders.
If you want more ram fit more ram, or buy a better computer
You cannot fit 'more ram' to a 32-bit Windows installation.
The next computer will be an M4 Mac mini
Andrew
Andrew wrote:
You cannot fit 'more ram' to a 32-bit Windows installation.
The next computer will be an M4 Mac mini
You can't fit more RAM to those either, and it's silly money to buy the models that come with more RAM ... more SSD ... more cores ... faster NIC
I don't think it is possible to get a modern-ish pc with
support for firewire
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