My clock radio came on very early this morning and there was a short
article about woman and technology.
Paraphrasing: "I recently spoke to a professor at a university who has
just patented a new indoor solar panel. This means we no longer have to rely on solar panels on the roof but we can get useful power indoors
from our LED bulbs"
My clock radio came on very early this morning and there was a short
article about woman and technology.
Paraphrasing: "I recently spoke to a professor at a university who has
just patented a new indoor solar panel. This means we no longer have to rely on solar panels on the roof but we can get useful power indoors
from our LED bulbs"
My clock radio came on very early this morning and there was a short
article about woman and technology.
Paraphrasing: "I recently spoke to a professor at a university who has
just patented a new indoor solar panel. This means we no longer have to rely on solar panels on the roof but we can get useful power indoors
from our LED bulbs"
On 02/12/2024 08:43, alan_m wrote:
My clock radio came on very early this morning and there was a short >>article about woman and technology.
Paraphrasing: "I recently spoke to a professor at a university who has
just patented a new indoor solar panel. This means we no longer have to >>rely on solar panels on the roof but we can get useful power indoors from >>our LED bulbs"
I run all my electric heating from an indoor solar panel illuminated by a
3W LED. Hell I even run the LED off it. Saves a fortune!.
On 02/12/2024 in message <MBg3P.30965$sAi9.2949@fx11.ams4> Andy Bennett wrote:
On 02/12/2024 08:43, alan_m wrote:
My clock radio came on very early this morning and there was a short
article about woman and technology.
Paraphrasing: "I recently spoke to a professor at a university who has
just patented a new indoor solar panel. This means we no longer have to >>> rely on solar panels on the roof but we can get useful power indoors from >>> our LED bulbs"
I run all my electric heating from an indoor solar panel illuminated by a
3W LED. Hell I even run the LED off it. Saves a fortune!.
Wow, that sounds like a fantastic idea, any particular make of solar panel more efficient than others :-)
On 2024-12-02 08:43, alan_m wrote:
My clock radio came on very early this morning and there was a short
article about woman and technology.
Paraphrasing: "I recently spoke to a professor at a university who has
just patented a new indoor solar panel. This means we no longer have to
rely on solar panels on the roof but we can get useful power indoors
from our LED bulbs"
I do that! My calculator works very well.
On 02/12/2024 in message <MBg3P.30965$sAi9.2949@fx11.ams4> Andy Bennett wrote:
On 02/12/2024 08:43, alan_m wrote:
My clock radio came on very early this morning and there was a short >>article about woman and technology.
Paraphrasing: "I recently spoke to a professor at a university who has
just patented a new indoor solar panel. This means we no longer have
to rely on solar panels on the roof but we can get useful power
indoors from our LED bulbs"
I run all my electric heating from an indoor solar panel illuminated by
a 3W LED. Hell I even run the LED off it. Saves a fortune!.
Wow, that sounds like a fantastic idea, any particular make of solar
panel more efficient than others :-)
On 2 Dec 2024 at 14:06:04 GMT, ""Jeff Gaines"" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
Woss this I see in the Times today that Merc are going to put some special paint on their car roofs to generate volts?
<nib wrote:Brilliant!
On 2024-12-02 08:43, alan_m wrote:
My clock radio came on very early this morning and there was a short
article about woman and technology.
Paraphrasing: "I recently spoke to a professor at a university who has
just patented a new indoor solar panel. This means we no longer have to >>> rely on solar panels on the roof but we can get useful power indoors
from our LED bulbs"
I do that! My calculator works very well.
I had a cheap calculator very similar to this
<https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314432415177>
When it stopped working, I opened it up. The solar panel was
merely a slip of paper printed to look like a solar cell.
Elsewhere a button cell was hidden.
Chris
On 2 Dec 2024 at 14:06:04 GMT, ""Jeff Gaines"" <jgnewsid@outlook.com>
wrote:
On 02/12/2024 in message <MBg3P.30965$sAi9.2949@fx11.ams4> Andy Bennett
wrote:
On 02/12/2024 08:43, alan_m wrote:
My clock radio came on very early this morning and there was a short
article about woman and technology.
Paraphrasing: "I recently spoke to a professor at a university who
has just patented a new indoor solar panel. This means we no longer
have to rely on solar panels on the roof but we can get useful power
indoors from our LED bulbs"
I run all my electric heating from an indoor solar panel illuminated
by a 3W LED. Hell I even run the LED off it. Saves a fortune!.
Wow, that sounds like a fantastic idea, any particular make of solar
panel more efficient than others :-)
Woss this I see in the Times today that Merc are going to put some
special paint on their car roofs to generate volts?
In article <xn0ou335t2x3da3009@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines ><jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
On 02/12/2024 in message <MBg3P.30965$sAi9.2949@fx11.ams4> Andy Bennett >>wrote:
On 02/12/2024 08:43, alan_m wrote:
My clock radio came on very early this morning and there was a short >>>>article about woman and technology.
Paraphrasing: "I recently spoke to a professor at a university who has >>>>just patented a new indoor solar panel. This means we no longer have >>>>to rely on solar panels on the roof but we can get useful power
indoors from our LED bulbs"
I run all my electric heating from an indoor solar panel illuminated by
a 3W LED. Hell I even run the LED off it. Saves a fortune!.
Wow, that sounds like a fantastic idea, any particular make of solar
panel more efficient than others :-)
I think he's invented another perpetual motion machine. ;-)
My clock radio came on very early this morning and there was a short article about woman and technology.
Paraphrasing: "I recently spoke to a professor at a university who has just patented a new indoor solar panel.
This means we no longer have to rely on solar panels on the roof but we can get useful power indoors from our LED bulbs"
On Mon, 12/2/2024 3:43 AM, alan_m wrote:
My clock radio came on very early this morning and there was a short article about woman and technology.
Paraphrasing: "I recently spoke to a professor at a university who has just patented a new indoor solar panel.
This means we no longer have to rely on solar panels on the roof but we can get useful power indoors from our LED bulbs"
There was something invented in 2019 like that, only
it is a very low power device. Any time a technology article
won't tell you the current output, you know it's not for
your electric fire or anything. It's a polymer replacement
for polycrystalline silicon. And as you would expect from
such a device, it's not going to have the same lifespan
as the polycrystalline one (it might need stabilizers to
make it last longer).
https://www.thepatent.news/indoor-solar-panels-for-ai-and-domotic/
And it might be enough to power an IOT spy device. With a longer
range radio than a Bluetooth. A "mote" patiently waits until
it collects enough energy from the local environment, to make
a radio transmission. It might be measuring the air temperature
every ten minutes for example.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LoRa
No, if you put enough polymer panels together, it doesn't run an electric fire.
Next, the boffins will work on an "indoor windmill"
with kilowatt output. You know, for those strong
sustained winds in the house. Whoosh.
But this sort of thing is more of a "pure" research than
an "applied" research. The scientists won't be quitting
their day job, to start making those.
Paul
On 02/12/2024 15:01, Chris J Dixon wrote:
<nib wrote:
On 2024-12-02 08:43, alan_m wrote:
My clock radio came on very early this morning and there was a short
article about woman and technology.
Paraphrasing: "I recently spoke to a professor at a university who has >>>> just patented a new indoor solar panel. This means we no longer
have to
rely on solar panels on the roof but we can get useful power indoors
from our LED bulbs"
I do that! My calculator works very well.
I had a cheap calculator very similar to this
<https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314432415177>
When it stopped working, I opened it up. The solar panel was
merely a slip of paper printed to look like a solar cell.
Elsewhere a button cell was hidden.
Like those old '12 transistor' radios where 5 of them were soldered to
pads that went nowhere and didn't work when you tested them...
On 02/12/2024 08:43, alan_m wrote:
My clock radio came on very early this morning and there was a short
article about woman and technology.
Paraphrasing: "I recently spoke to a professor at a university who has
just patented a new indoor solar panel. This means we no longer have
to rely on solar panels on the roof but we can get useful power
indoors from our LED bulbs"
I run all my electric heating from an indoor solar panel illuminated by
a 3W LED. Hell I even run the LED off it. Saves a fortune!.
On 2 Dec 2024 at 14:06:04 GMT, ""Jeff Gaines"" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
On 02/12/2024 in message <MBg3P.30965$sAi9.2949@fx11.ams4> Andy Bennett
wrote:
On 02/12/2024 08:43, alan_m wrote:
My clock radio came on very early this morning and there was a short
article about woman and technology.
Paraphrasing: "I recently spoke to a professor at a university who has >>>> just patented a new indoor solar panel. This means we no longer have to >>>> rely on solar panels on the roof but we can get useful power indoors from >>>> our LED bulbs"
I run all my electric heating from an indoor solar panel illuminated by a >>> 3W LED. Hell I even run the LED off it. Saves a fortune!.
Wow, that sounds like a fantastic idea, any particular make of solar panel >> more efficient than others :-)
Woss this I see in the Times today that Merc are going to put some special paint on their car roofs to generate volts?
On 02/12/2024 11:11, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 02/12/2024 08:43, alan_m wrote:
My clock radio came on very early this morning and there was a short
article about woman and technology.
Paraphrasing: "I recently spoke to a professor at a university who
has just patented a new indoor solar panel. This means we no longer
have to rely on solar panels on the roof but we can get useful power
indoors from our LED bulbs"
I run all my electric heating from an indoor solar panel illuminated
by a 3W LED. Hell I even run the LED off it. Saves a fortune!.
Bit like having an electric fan to power a sailing ship :)
In article <xn0ou335t2x3da3009@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
On 02/12/2024 in message <MBg3P.30965$sAi9.2949@fx11.ams4> Andy Bennett
wrote:
On 02/12/2024 08:43, alan_m wrote:
My clock radio came on very early this morning and there was a short
article about woman and technology.
Paraphrasing: "I recently spoke to a professor at a university who has >>>> just patented a new indoor solar panel. This means we no longer have
to rely on solar panels on the roof but we can get useful power
indoors from our LED bulbs"
I run all my electric heating from an indoor solar panel illuminated by
a 3W LED. Hell I even run the LED off it. Saves a fortune!.
Wow, that sounds like a fantastic idea, any particular make of solar
panel more efficient than others :-)
I think he's invented another perpetual motion machine. ;-)
On 02/12/2024 14:26, Tim Streater wrote:
On 2 Dec 2024 at 14:06:04 GMT, ""Jeff Gaines"" <jgnewsid@outlook.com>
Woss this I see in the Times today that Merc are going to put some
special
paint on their car roofs to generate volts?
You mean wolts, surely :-)
On 02/12/2024 11:11, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 02/12/2024 08:43, alan_m wrote:
My clock radio came on very early this morning and there was a short
article about woman and technology.
Paraphrasing: "I recently spoke to a professor at a university who has
just patented a new indoor solar panel. This means we no longer have
to rely on solar panels on the roof but we can get useful power
indoors from our LED bulbs"
I run all my electric heating from an indoor solar panel illuminated by
a 3W LED. Hell I even run the LED off it. Saves a fortune!.
Bit like having an electric fan to power a sailing ship :)
On Mon, 02 Dec 2024 19:35:30 +0000, Jim the Geordie wrote:
On 02/12/2024 11:11, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 02/12/2024 08:43, alan_m wrote:
My clock radio came on very early this morning and there was a short
article about woman and technology.
Paraphrasing: "I recently spoke to a professor at a university who has >>>> just patented a new indoor solar panel. This means we no longer have >>>> to rely on solar panels on the roof but we can get useful power
indoors from our LED bulbs"
I run all my electric heating from an indoor solar panel illuminated by
a 3W LED. Hell I even run the LED off it. Saves a fortune!.
Bit like having an electric fan to power a sailing ship :)
https://youtu.be/uKXMTzMQWjo
On Mon, 02 Dec 2024 19:35:30 +0000, Jim the Geordie wrote:
On 02/12/2024 11:11, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 02/12/2024 08:43, alan_m wrote:
My clock radio came on very early this morning and there was a short
article about woman and technology.
Paraphrasing: "I recently spoke to a professor at a university who has >>>> just patented a new indoor solar panel. This means we no longer have >>>> to rely on solar panels on the roof but we can get useful power
indoors from our LED bulbs"
I run all my electric heating from an indoor solar panel illuminated by
a 3W LED. Hell I even run the LED off it. Saves a fortune!.
Bit like having an electric fan to power a sailing ship :)
https://youtu.be/uKXMTzMQWjo
On 03/12/2024 10:54, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Mon, 02 Dec 2024 19:35:30 +0000, Jim the Geordie wrote:
On 02/12/2024 11:11, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 02/12/2024 08:43, alan_m wrote:
My clock radio came on very early this morning and there was a short >>>>> article about woman and technology.
Paraphrasing: "I recently spoke to a professor at a university who has >>>>> just patented a new indoor solar panel. This means we no longer have >>>>> to rely on solar panels on the roof but we can get useful power
indoors from our LED bulbs"
I run all my electric heating from an indoor solar panel illuminated by >>>> a 3W LED. Hell I even run the LED off it. Saves a fortune!.
Bit like having an electric fan to power a sailing ship :)
https://youtu.be/uKXMTzMQWjo
Chuck the sail, just use the fan - much more efficient.
On 03/12/2024 14:03, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 03/12/2024 10:54, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Mon, 02 Dec 2024 19:35:30 +0000, Jim the Geordie wrote:
On 02/12/2024 11:11, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 02/12/2024 08:43, alan_m wrote:
My clock radio came on very early this morning and there was a short >>>>>> article about woman and technology.
Paraphrasing: "I recently spoke to a professor at a university who has >>>>>> just patented a new indoor solar panel. This means we no longer have >>>>>> to rely on solar panels on the roof but we can get useful power
indoors from our LED bulbs"
I run all my electric heating from an indoor solar panel illuminated by >>>>> a 3W LED. Hell I even run the LED off it. Saves a fortune!.
Bit like having an electric fan to power a sailing ship :)
https://youtu.be/uKXMTzMQWjo
Chuck the sail, just use the fan - much more efficient.
Then it'll just go backwards.
On 03/12/2024 10:54, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Mon, 02 Dec 2024 19:35:30 +0000, Jim the Geordie wrote:
On 02/12/2024 11:11, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 02/12/2024 08:43, alan_m wrote:
My clock radio came on very early this morning and there was a short >>>>> article about woman and technology.
Paraphrasing: "I recently spoke to a professor at a university who has >>>>> just patented a new indoor solar panel. This means we no longer have >>>>> to rely on solar panels on the roof but we can get useful power
indoors from our LED bulbs"
I run all my electric heating from an indoor solar panel illuminated by >>>> a 3W LED. Hell I even run the LED off it. Saves a fortune!.
Bit like having an electric fan to power a sailing ship :)
https://youtu.be/uKXMTzMQWjo
They seem to have forgotten that a sail is an aerofoil and not just a
wind catcher.
On Mon, 02 Dec 2024 14:26:34 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:
On 2 Dec 2024 at 14:06:04 GMT, ""Jeff Gaines"" <jgnewsid@outlook.com>
wrote:
On 02/12/2024 in message <MBg3P.30965$sAi9.2949@fx11.ams4> Andy Bennett
wrote:
On 02/12/2024 08:43, alan_m wrote:
My clock radio came on very early this morning and there was a short >>>>> article about woman and technology.
Paraphrasing: "I recently spoke to a professor at a university who
has just patented a new indoor solar panel. This means we no longer >>>>> have to rely on solar panels on the roof but we can get useful power >>>>> indoors from our LED bulbs"
I run all my electric heating from an indoor solar panel illuminated
by a 3W LED. Hell I even run the LED off it. Saves a fortune!.
Wow, that sounds like a fantastic idea, any particular make of solar
panel more efficient than others :-)
Woss this I see in the Times today that Merc are going to put some
special paint on their car roofs to generate volts?
On the "genius of modern life*" with the ever-fragrant Hannah Fry, they
did show a Dutch bloke who had developed that and produced a car with it.
It all sounded wonderful. Then you recall the BBC also thought DAB was
going to rule the world.
*Yet another 60 minute programme from 10 of content.
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car and how
there was no (fuel) cost in running it when below (I can't remember
the exact figure) 40mph because the electric motor cut in.
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as
'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, err, where
is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean it's just a
petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission?
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 11:10:00 +0000, Theo wrote:
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as
'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, err, where
is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean it's just a
petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission?
All I know is that the car of choice for Uber drivers round here (well
over half that I have taken) is a Prius.
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car and how
there was no (fuel) cost in running it when below (I can't remember
the exact figure) 40mph because the electric motor cut in.
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as 'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, err, where is the energy
coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean it's just a petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission?
See also the ads for an 'electrified driving experience' when it's just a petrol car with a hybrid system stuffed in it.
At least with solar on a car roof you can add a few EV miles a day which is not nothing, especially if you live somewhere sunnier than the UK. It's
also handy in keeping things topped up if you don't use the car very much - runs the alarm, etc. The more efficient the car is, the more range you get from solar charging.
Theo
I would expect that even on a summers day you would at best get 5kWh out
of a 'sun roof'
That really isn't very much.
And in winter the square root of sweet fanny adams - which is much less.
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 11:10:00 +0000, Theo wrote:
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as
'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, err, where
is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean it's just a
petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission?
All I know is that the car of choice for Uber drivers round here (well
over half that I have taken) is a Prius.
On 04/12/2024 12:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I would expect that even on a summers day you would at best get 5kWh out of a 'sun roof'
That really isn't very much.
And in winter the square root of sweet fanny adams - which is much less.
How susceptible are solar panels to vibration? How long are they likely to survive after the vehicle has encountered a few potholes?
On 04/12/2024 11:10, Theo wrote:
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car and how
there was no (fuel) cost in running it when below (I can't remember
the exact figure) 40mph because the electric motor cut in.
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as 'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, err, where is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean it's just a petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission?
See also the ads for an 'electrified driving experience' when it's just a petrol car with a hybrid system stuffed in it.
TBH a hybrid cars makes a lot of sense for people who live in towns and suburbia. Short journeys and a lot of stop start.
My supermakert run is a round trip of 25 miles though.
On Wed, 12/4/2024 7:45 AM, alan_m wrote:
On 04/12/2024 12:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I would expect that even on a summers day you would at best get 5kWh out of a 'sun roof'
That really isn't very much.
And in winter the square root of sweet fanny adams - which is much less.
How susceptible are solar panels to vibration? How long are they likely to survive after the vehicle has encountered a few potholes?
It's just a bad idea.
Think about the sum total of all insults a car faces.
That idea is just asking for trouble. A hail storm,
with golf-ball sized hail, is an example.
https://i0.wp.com/eos.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Hailstone-2.5-inch-diameter-SW-of-Glendive-Montana-Credit-John-T-Allen-sized-for-Eos.jpg?w=820&ssl=1
https://islanddetailandcolor.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Repairing-Hail-Damage-1366x717.jpg
Even the Musk solar roof (glass finish), is
damaged in a heavy enough hail. The solar roof is a laminate, and
not just a conventional panel "glued" to a metal sheet or something.
It's a decent attempt at a rugged solution.
https://www.weddleandsons.com/blog/tesla-solar-roof-vs-traditional-panels-md5bn
"The solar tiles on a solar roof are rated for ANSI FM 4473 Class 3 hail resistance.
This means that the solar tiles have been tested in a formal testing environment
where 1.75in ice balls are launched five feet away at just below 72 m.p.h."
Yet, there are reports of users having some tiles replaced under warranty
for this kind of hail damage (Texas). I've had only a couple golf ball
hail hit the roof, and that's *loud*. Most of our hail here, is the
corn kernel kind. The golf ball one, only lasted for 20 seconds, before
it changed over. And the balls weren't all that dense, fortunately.
I looked out the window, and saw them hitting the road out front of
the house, and bouncing up.
Some areas, *every* hail storm is the golf ball kind. It wipes out crops.
It smashes windshields. In some cases, you may not be able to get
insurance for that damage, because it happens every year with regularity.
If you get dings in the finish, you just leave them. But the
broken windshields must be replaced (or you'll get a road citation).
If a car company is doing this, and it's not an after-market addition,
the car company must ensure it will work for everyone. Not just the
people in "ideal parts of the country". It must also work in a hell-hole.
Example:
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/tesla-cybertruck-may-be-bulletproof-but-hail-will-damage-its-windshield-232416.html
"The owner, who (based on his Reddit nickname) might be named Xander Hud,
parked his Cybertruck at a supermarket in Austin [Tx] when a sudden hailstorm hit.
The pictures shared online show chunks of ice as big as two inches scattered
on the ground. While the stainless steel body was fine after being hit by hail,
the windshield cracked [that's a HUGE windshield by the way]. To the owner's
disappointment, none of the other vehicles parked next to the Cybertruck had
windshield damage. Instead, they had lots of dings on their body.
"
The windshield is so big on the Cybertruck, the wiper blade is
a large floppy appendage tied to a wiper motor.
And like that article mentions, windshields crack easily, if installed incorrectly. A windshield must only be "bedded" and resting on compound,
NOT on the steel frame, NOT on raised rusted humps. A rusty hump under
a windshield, you'll lose the windshield about once a year.
Paul
On 04/12/2024 11:10, Theo wrote:
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:TBH a hybrid cars makes a lot of sense for people who live in towns and suburbia. Short journeys and a lot of stop start.
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car and how
there was no (fuel) cost in running it when below (I can't remember
the exact figure) 40mph because the electric motor cut in.
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as 'self-charging >> hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, err, where is the energy
coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean it's just a petrol car with a
slightly more efficient transmission?
See also the ads for an 'electrified driving experience' when it's just a
petrol car with a hybrid system stuffed in it.
My supermakert run is a round trip of 25 miles though.
On 04/12/2024 12:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I would expect that even on a summers day you would at best get 5kWh out
of a 'sun roof'
That really isn't very much.
And in winter the square root of sweet fanny adams - which is much less.
How susceptible are solar panels to vibration? How long are they likely
to survive after the vehicle has encountered a few potholes?
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car and how there
was no (fuel) cost in running it when below (I can't remember the exact
figure) 40mph because the electric motor cut in.
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as
'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, err, where
is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean it's just a
petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission?
On 4 Dec 2024 at 12:29:39 GMT, "The Natural Philosopher" <tnp@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
On 04/12/2024 11:10, Theo wrote:
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:TBH a hybrid cars makes a lot of sense for people who live in towns and
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car and how
there was no (fuel) cost in running it when below (I can't remember
the exact figure) 40mph because the electric motor cut in.
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as 'self-charging >>> hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, err, where is the energy
coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean it's just a petrol car with a
slightly more efficient transmission?
See also the ads for an 'electrified driving experience' when it's just a >>> petrol car with a hybrid system stuffed in it.
suburbia. Short journeys and a lot of stop start.
My supermakert run is a round trip of 25 miles though.
Don't they deliver?
On 04/12/2024 14:31, Tim Streater wrote:
Don't they deliver?Yes, but I need to get out of the house sometimes...and you get good
deals in store
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 11:10:00 +0000, Theo wrote:
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car and how there
was no (fuel) cost in running it when below (I can't remember the exact
figure) 40mph because the electric motor cut in.
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as
'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, err, where
is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean it's just a
petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission?
A lot of the charging is regenerative. Not all, of course, but quite a
bit.
On 4 Dec 2024 at 11:46:40 GMT, "Jethro_uk" <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 11:10:00 +0000, Theo wrote:
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as
'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, err,
where is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean it's
just a petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission?
All I know is that the car of choice for Uber drivers round here (well
over half that I have taken) is a Prius.
And taxis round here tend to be Toyota Auris hybrid. Which gets you a
very decent mileage around town.
On Wed, 12/4/2024 6:46 AM, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 11:10:00 +0000, Theo wrote:Some Uber drivers are driving "rentals" (arranged through Uber). What
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as
'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, err,
where is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean it's
just a petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission?
All I know is that the car of choice for Uber drivers round here (well
over half that I have taken) is a Prius.
does the rental company that supplies Uber, prefer ?
*******
The Prius is the preferred taxi car here at least, in this city. A
typical arrangement, is two or three taxi drivers share one car.
This allows the vehicle and the taxi "plate" to be shared as an expense,
by the individuals buying into the share.
It means the car is driving 24 hours a day.
On 04/12/2024 15:14, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 11:10:00 +0000, Theo wrote:But that ultimately is simply recovering energy the fuel engine has put
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car and how there >>>> was no (fuel) cost in running it when below (I can't remember the exact >>>> figure) 40mph because the electric motor cut in.
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as
'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, err, where
is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean it's just a
petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission?
A lot of the charging is regenerative. Not all, of course, but quite a
bit.
in... Simply avoids wasting all the braking energy as heat.
On 04/12/2024 15:14, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 11:10:00 +0000, Theo wrote:
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car and how
there was no (fuel) cost in running it when below (I can't
remember the exact figure) 40mph because the electric motor cut
in.
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as
'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, err,
where is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean it's
just a petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission?
A lot of the charging is regenerative. Not all, of course, but
quite a bit.
But that ultimately is simply recovering energy the fuel engine has
put in... Simply avoids wasting all the braking energy as heat.
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 08:11:50 -0500, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 12/4/2024 6:46 AM, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 11:10:00 +0000, Theo wrote:Some Uber drivers are driving "rentals" (arranged through Uber).
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as
'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, err,
where is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean it's
just a petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission?
All I know is that the car of choice for Uber drivers round here
(well over half that I have taken) is a Prius.
What does the rental company that supplies Uber, prefer ?
*******
The Prius is the preferred taxi car here at least, in this city. A
typical arrangement, is two or three taxi drivers share one car.
This allows the vehicle and the taxi "plate" to be shared as an
expense, by the individuals buying into the share.
It means the car is driving 24 hours a day.
I am still thinking that when self driving cars finally emerge, they
will highlight the lunacy of leaving a car on a drive 90% of the time.
On 4 Dec 2024 at 12:29:39 GMT, "The Natural Philosopher" <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/12/2024 11:10, Theo wrote:
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:TBH a hybrid cars makes a lot of sense for people who live in towns
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car and how
there was no (fuel) cost in running it when below (I can't remember
the exact figure) 40mph because the electric motor cut in.
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as
'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, err,
where is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean it's
just a petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission?
See also the ads for an 'electrified driving experience' when it's
just a petrol car with a hybrid system stuffed in it.
and suburbia. Short journeys and a lot of stop start.
My supermakert run is a round trip of 25 miles though.
Don't they deliver?
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 16:59:35 -0000 (UTC)
Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 08:11:50 -0500, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 12/4/2024 6:46 AM, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 11:10:00 +0000, Theo wrote:Some Uber drivers are driving "rentals" (arranged through Uber).
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as
'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, err,
where is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean it's
just a petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission?
All I know is that the car of choice for Uber drivers round here
(well over half that I have taken) is a Prius.
What does the rental company that supplies Uber, prefer ?
*******
The Prius is the preferred taxi car here at least, in this city. A
typical arrangement, is two or three taxi drivers share one car.
This allows the vehicle and the taxi "plate" to be shared as an
expense, by the individuals buying into the share.
It means the car is driving 24 hours a day.
I am still thinking that when self driving cars finally emerge, they
will highlight the lunacy of leaving a car on a drive 90% of the time.
Have you heard the US expression 'It's only a rental'? Many people will
want the use of a car that's clean and undamaged.
What I noticed, in my commuting days, is that everyone wants to use
their cars at the same time. And don't suggest staggering hours of
work, as that would need to be by a lot more than two or three hours,
and the schools, shops etc. would have to match... at least all the
civil servants are off the road.
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 16:59:35 -0000 (UTC)
Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
Have you heard the US expression 'It's only a rental'? Many people will
want the use of a car that's clean and undamaged.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/12/2024 11:10, Theo wrote:Doesn't have to be town/suburbia, we are out in the country but town
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:TBH a hybrid cars makes a lot of sense for people who live in towns and
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car and how
there was no (fuel) cost in running it when below (I can't remember
the exact figure) 40mph because the electric motor cut in.
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as 'self-charging >>> hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, err, where is the energy
coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean it's just a petrol car with a
slightly more efficient transmission?
See also the ads for an 'electrified driving experience' when it's just a >>> petrol car with a hybrid system stuffed in it.
suburbia. Short journeys and a lot of stop start.
and back is mostly within our hybrid's electric range.
That's about what our hybrid does on battery after charging overnight,
My supermakert run is a round trip of 25 miles though.
even if the last few miles are on petrol most of the distance would be
on battery charged by cheap, overnight, electricity.
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 16:04:03 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/12/2024 15:14, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 11:10:00 +0000, Theo wrote:But that ultimately is simply recovering energy the fuel engine has
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car and how
there was no (fuel) cost in running it when below (I can't
remember the exact figure) 40mph because the electric motor cut
in.
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as
'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, err,
where is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean it's
just a petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission?
A lot of the charging is regenerative. Not all, of course, but
quite a bit.
put in... Simply avoids wasting all the braking energy as heat.
Yes, but that's quite a big advantage for city and motorway driving and
for very hilly areas.
Clive Sinclair understood that, and the C5 had regenerative braking.
On Wed, 12/4/2024 2:13 PM, Joe wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 16:04:03 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/12/2024 15:14, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 11:10:00 +0000, Theo wrote:But that ultimately is simply recovering energy the fuel engine has
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car and how
there was no (fuel) cost in running it when below (I can't
remember the exact figure) 40mph because the electric motor cut
in.
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as
'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, err,
where is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean it's
just a petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission?
A lot of the charging is regenerative. Not all, of course, but
quite a bit.
put in... Simply avoids wasting all the braking energy as heat.
Yes, but that's quite a big advantage for city and motorway driving and
for very hilly areas.
Clive Sinclair understood that, and the C5 had regenerative braking.
It's unfortunate that there isn't a table listing
the minimum regeneration speed.
At least one car, the motors don't need excitation, to be
turned into generators. That particular car, regenerates
all the way down to 0 MPH (on a flat surface).
But other cars, they need like 5kW for excitation, and when
the regeneration energy becomes 4.9kW, the car computer
switches the regen off (removes the excitation) and
switches to the friction brake. Such cars don't have the
same "mileage efficiency", and you can see this sometimes
in reviewer descriptions of the usage of the car, and
what is recorded on the dash for consumption.
While the "round trip" has a quoted efficiency, the
minimum regen speed also has quite an impact on how
useful the regen is. At lower speeds, there isn't a lot
of energy being returned to the battery, so if everything
below 10MPH was not used, that's not a big deal. But
cars that stop regen at 30MPH, that's not so good.
EBikes hardly ever have regen. It simplifies the design.
If you brake via regen suddenly enough, the output power
is three times the normal acceleration power. This
can be hard on the charge/discharge electronics.
In some cases, they can't actually absorb all the returned
energy. If you reduce speed a bit slower, the regen is a
better match for the charging capability. If you reduce speed
too slowly, it may not counterbalance the excitation power
required.
On a diesel electric locomotive (North American version),
the regen when braking on a hill is fed into a resistive
grid, which has a large fan for cooling. But now that
a "battery car" is being added to some, the regen when
it happens, can be fed to the battery car. The battery
car is used for haulage in the final miles into a city, to
cut down on diesel pollution within city limits.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/f0e42bccb2ba69adb33eff2924d4ce1b0e7ecb8c/0_173_7952_4774/master/7952.jpg?width=1140&dpr=2&s=none&crop=none
While that one looks like a yard engine, there is also a
version with engine-battery-engine, for larger loads.
Paul
On 06/12/2024 13:12, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 06/12/2024 10:39, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 12/4/2024 2:13 PM, Joe wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 16:04:03 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/12/2024 15:14, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 11:10:00 +0000, Theo wrote:But that ultimately is simply recovering energy the fuel engine has
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car and how >>>>>>>> there was no (fuel) cost in running it when below (I can't
remember the exact figure) 40mph because the electric motor cut >>>>>>>> in.
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as
'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, err, >>>>>>> where is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean it's >>>>>>> just a petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission?
A lot of the charging is regenerative. Not all, of course, but
quite a bit.
put in... Simply avoids wasting all the braking energy as heat.
Yes, but that's quite a big advantage for city and motorway driving and >>>> for very hilly areas.
Clive Sinclair understood that, and the C5 had regenerative braking.
It's unfortunate that there isn't a table listing
the minimum regeneration speed.
At least one car, the motors don't need excitation, to be
turned into generators. That particular car, regenerates
all the way down to 0 MPH (on a flat surface).
But other cars, they need like 5kW for excitation, and when
the regeneration energy becomes 4.9kW, the car computer
switches the regen off (removes the excitation) and
switches to the friction brake. Such cars don't have the
same "mileage efficiency", and you can see this sometimes
in reviewer descriptions of the usage of the car, and
what is recorded on the dash for consumption.
While the "round trip" has a quoted efficiency, the
minimum regen speed also has quite an impact on how
useful the regen is. At lower speeds, there isn't a lot
of energy being returned to the battery, so if everything
below 10MPH was not used, that's not a big deal. But
cars that stop regen at 30MPH, that's not so good.
EBikes hardly ever have regen. It simplifies the design.
If you brake via regen suddenly enough, the output power
is three times the normal acceleration power. This
can be hard on the charge/discharge electronics.
In some cases, they can't actually absorb all the returned
energy. If you reduce speed a bit slower, the regen is a
better match for the charging capability. If you reduce speed
too slowly, it may not counterbalance the excitation power
required.
On a diesel electric locomotive (North American version),
the regen when braking on a hill is fed into a resistive
grid, which has a large fan for cooling. But now that
a "battery car" is being added to some, the regen when
it happens, can be fed to the battery car. The battery
car is used for haulage in the final miles into a city, to
cut down on diesel pollution within city limits.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/f0e42bccb2ba69adb33eff2924d4ce1b0e7ecb8c/0_173_7952_4774/master/7952.jpg?width=1140&dpr=2&s=none&crop=none
While that one looks like a yard engine, there is also a
version with engine-battery-engine, for larger loads.
Paul
No car regenerates down to 0mph. Simple physics. The motor in regen
mode simply does not have the flux reversal rate at low rpm to
generate any meaningful power/braking effect so friction brakes are
blended in to take over down to zero. Even T brand cars cannot break
the laws of physics.
A CVT would help by spinning the motor faster and faster as the speed decreased. And leaving it spinning when the car came to a halt ready to transfer the energy mack into motion.
On 06/12/2024 10:39, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 12/4/2024 2:13 PM, Joe wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 16:04:03 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/12/2024 15:14, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 11:10:00 +0000, Theo wrote:But that ultimately is simply recovering energy the fuel engine has
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car and how >>>>>> there was no (fuel) cost in running it when below (I can't
remember the exact figure) 40mph because the electric motor cut
in.
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as
'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, err,
where is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean it's >>>>> just a petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission?
A lot of the charging is regenerative. Not all, of course, but
quite a bit.
put in... Simply avoids wasting all the braking energy as heat.
Yes, but that's quite a big advantage for city and motorway driving and
for very hilly areas.
Clive Sinclair understood that, and the C5 had regenerative braking.
It's unfortunate that there isn't a table listing
the minimum regeneration speed.
At least one car, the motors don't need excitation, to be
turned into generators. That particular car, regenerates
all the way down to 0 MPH (on a flat surface).
But other cars, they need like 5kW for excitation, and when
the regeneration energy becomes 4.9kW, the car computer
switches the regen off (removes the excitation) and
switches to the friction brake. Such cars don't have the
same "mileage efficiency", and you can see this sometimes
in reviewer descriptions of the usage of the car, and
what is recorded on the dash for consumption.
While the "round trip" has a quoted efficiency, the
minimum regen speed also has quite an impact on how
useful the regen is. At lower speeds, there isn't a lot
of energy being returned to the battery, so if everything
below 10MPH was not used, that's not a big deal. But
cars that stop regen at 30MPH, that's not so good.
EBikes hardly ever have regen. It simplifies the design.
If you brake via regen suddenly enough, the output power
is three times the normal acceleration power. This
can be hard on the charge/discharge electronics.
In some cases, they can't actually absorb all the returned
energy. If you reduce speed a bit slower, the regen is a
better match for the charging capability. If you reduce speed
too slowly, it may not counterbalance the excitation power
required.
On a diesel electric locomotive (North American version),
the regen when braking on a hill is fed into a resistive
grid, which has a large fan for cooling. But now that
a "battery car" is being added to some, the regen when
it happens, can be fed to the battery car. The battery
car is used for haulage in the final miles into a city, to
cut down on diesel pollution within city limits.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/f0e42bccb2ba69adb33eff2924d4ce1b0e7ecb8c/0_173_7952_4774/master/7952.jpg?width=1140&dpr=2&s=none&crop=none
While that one looks like a yard engine, there is also a
version with engine-battery-engine, for larger loads.
Paul
No car regenerates down to 0mph. Simple physics. The motor in regen mode simply does not have the flux reversal rate at low rpm to generate any meaningful power/braking effect so friction brakes are blended in to
take over down to zero. Even T brand cars cannot break the laws of
physics.
On 06/12/2024 10:39, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 12/4/2024 2:13 PM, Joe wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 16:04:03 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/12/2024 15:14, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 11:10:00 +0000, Theo wrote:But that ultimately is simply recovering energy the fuel engine has
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car and how >>>>>>> there was no (fuel) cost in running it when below (I can't
remember the exact figure) 40mph because the electric motor cut
in.
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as
'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, err, >>>>>> where is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean it's >>>>>> just a petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission?
A lot of the charging is regenerative. Not all, of course, but
quite a bit.
put in... Simply avoids wasting all the braking energy as heat.
Yes, but that's quite a big advantage for city and motorway driving and
for very hilly areas.
Clive Sinclair understood that, and the C5 had regenerative braking.
It's unfortunate that there isn't a table listing
the minimum regeneration speed.
At least one car, the motors don't need excitation, to be
turned into generators. That particular car, regenerates
all the way down to 0 MPH (on a flat surface).
But other cars, they need like 5kW for excitation, and when
the regeneration energy becomes 4.9kW, the car computer
switches the regen off (removes the excitation) and
switches to the friction brake. Such cars don't have the
same "mileage efficiency", and you can see this sometimes
in reviewer descriptions of the usage of the car, and
what is recorded on the dash for consumption.
While the "round trip" has a quoted efficiency, the
minimum regen speed also has quite an impact on how
useful the regen is. At lower speeds, there isn't a lot
of energy being returned to the battery, so if everything
below 10MPH was not used, that's not a big deal. But
cars that stop regen at 30MPH, that's not so good.
EBikes hardly ever have regen. It simplifies the design.
If you brake via regen suddenly enough, the output power
is three times the normal acceleration power. This
can be hard on the charge/discharge electronics.
In some cases, they can't actually absorb all the returned
energy. If you reduce speed a bit slower, the regen is a
better match for the charging capability. If you reduce speed
too slowly, it may not counterbalance the excitation power
required.
On a diesel electric locomotive (North American version),
the regen when braking on a hill is fed into a resistive
grid, which has a large fan for cooling. But now that
a "battery car" is being added to some, the regen when
it happens, can be fed to the battery car. The battery
car is used for haulage in the final miles into a city, to
cut down on diesel pollution within city limits.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/f0e42bccb2ba69adb33eff2924d4ce1b0e7ecb8c/0_173_7952_4774/master/7952.jpg?width=1140&dpr=2&s=none&crop=none
While that one looks like a yard engine, there is also a
version with engine-battery-engine, for larger loads.
Paul
No car regenerates down to 0mph. Simple physics. The motor in regen mode simply does not have the flux reversal rate at low rpm to generate any meaningful power/braking effect so friction brakes are blended in to
take over down to zero. Even T brand cars cannot break the laws of physics.
On 06/12/2024 13:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/12/2024 13:12, Andy Bennett wrote:It would but BEV's tend to have a fixed reduction gearbox typically 8 or
On 06/12/2024 10:39, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 12/4/2024 2:13 PM, Joe wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 16:04:03 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/12/2024 15:14, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 11:10:00 +0000, Theo wrote:But that ultimately is simply recovering energy the fuel engine has >>>>>> put in... Simply avoids wasting all the braking energy as heat.
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car and how >>>>>>>>> there was no (fuel) cost in running it when below (I can't
remember the exact figure) 40mph because the electric motor cut >>>>>>>>> in.
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as
'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, err, >>>>>>>> where is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean it's >>>>>>>> just a petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission?
A lot of the charging is regenerative. Not all, of course, but
quite a bit.
Yes, but that's quite a big advantage for city and motorway driving
and
for very hilly areas.
Clive Sinclair understood that, and the C5 had regenerative braking. >>>>>
It's unfortunate that there isn't a table listing
the minimum regeneration speed.
At least one car, the motors don't need excitation, to be
turned into generators. That particular car, regenerates
all the way down to 0 MPH (on a flat surface).
But other cars, they need like 5kW for excitation, and when
the regeneration energy becomes 4.9kW, the car computer
switches the regen off (removes the excitation) and
switches to the friction brake. Such cars don't have the
same "mileage efficiency", and you can see this sometimes
in reviewer descriptions of the usage of the car, and
what is recorded on the dash for consumption.
While the "round trip" has a quoted efficiency, the
minimum regen speed also has quite an impact on how
useful the regen is. At lower speeds, there isn't a lot
of energy being returned to the battery, so if everything
below 10MPH was not used, that's not a big deal. But
cars that stop regen at 30MPH, that's not so good.
EBikes hardly ever have regen. It simplifies the design.
If you brake via regen suddenly enough, the output power
is three times the normal acceleration power. This
can be hard on the charge/discharge electronics.
In some cases, they can't actually absorb all the returned
energy. If you reduce speed a bit slower, the regen is a
better match for the charging capability. If you reduce speed
too slowly, it may not counterbalance the excitation power
required.
On a diesel electric locomotive (North American version),
the regen when braking on a hill is fed into a resistive
grid, which has a large fan for cooling. But now that
a "battery car" is being added to some, the regen when
it happens, can be fed to the battery car. The battery
car is used for haulage in the final miles into a city, to
cut down on diesel pollution within city limits.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/f0e42bccb2ba69adb33eff2924d4ce1b0e7ecb8c/0_173_7952_4774/master/7952.jpg?width=1140&dpr=2&s=none&crop=none
While that one looks like a yard engine, there is also a
version with engine-battery-engine, for larger loads.
Paul
No car regenerates down to 0mph. Simple physics. The motor in regen
mode simply does not have the flux reversal rate at low rpm to
generate any meaningful power/braking effect so friction brakes are
blended in to take over down to zero. Even T brand cars cannot break
the laws of physics.
A CVT would help by spinning the motor faster and faster as the speed
decreased. And leaving it spinning when the car came to a halt ready
to transfer the energy mack into motion.
9:1. It would be an over complication v. known technology simple
friction brakes.
On 06/12/2024 13:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/12/2024 13:12, Andy Bennett wrote:It would but BEV's tend to have a fixed reduction gearbox typically 8 or
On 06/12/2024 10:39, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 12/4/2024 2:13 PM, Joe wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 16:04:03 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/12/2024 15:14, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 11:10:00 +0000, Theo wrote:But that ultimately is simply recovering energy the fuel engine has >>>>>> put in... Simply avoids wasting all the braking energy as heat.
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car and how >>>>>>>>> there was no (fuel) cost in running it when below (I can't
remember the exact figure) 40mph because the electric motor cut >>>>>>>>> in.
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as
'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, err, >>>>>>>> where is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean it's >>>>>>>> just a petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission?
A lot of the charging is regenerative. Not all, of course, but
quite a bit.
Yes, but that's quite a big advantage for city and motorway driving
and
for very hilly areas.
Clive Sinclair understood that, and the C5 had regenerative braking. >>>>>
It's unfortunate that there isn't a table listing
the minimum regeneration speed.
At least one car, the motors don't need excitation, to be
turned into generators. That particular car, regenerates
all the way down to 0 MPH (on a flat surface).
But other cars, they need like 5kW for excitation, and when
the regeneration energy becomes 4.9kW, the car computer
switches the regen off (removes the excitation) and
switches to the friction brake. Such cars don't have the
same "mileage efficiency", and you can see this sometimes
in reviewer descriptions of the usage of the car, and
what is recorded on the dash for consumption.
While the "round trip" has a quoted efficiency, the
minimum regen speed also has quite an impact on how
useful the regen is. At lower speeds, there isn't a lot
of energy being returned to the battery, so if everything
below 10MPH was not used, that's not a big deal. But
cars that stop regen at 30MPH, that's not so good.
EBikes hardly ever have regen. It simplifies the design.
If you brake via regen suddenly enough, the output power
is three times the normal acceleration power. This
can be hard on the charge/discharge electronics.
In some cases, they can't actually absorb all the returned
energy. If you reduce speed a bit slower, the regen is a
better match for the charging capability. If you reduce speed
too slowly, it may not counterbalance the excitation power
required.
On a diesel electric locomotive (North American version),
the regen when braking on a hill is fed into a resistive
grid, which has a large fan for cooling. But now that
a "battery car" is being added to some, the regen when
it happens, can be fed to the battery car. The battery
car is used for haulage in the final miles into a city, to
cut down on diesel pollution within city limits.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/
f0e42bccb2ba69adb33eff2924d4ce1b0e7ecb8c/0_173_7952_4774/
master/7952.jpg?width=1140&dpr=2&s=none&crop=none
While that one looks like a yard engine, there is also a
version with engine-battery-engine, for larger loads.
Paul
No car regenerates down to 0mph. Simple physics. The motor in regen
mode simply does not have the flux reversal rate at low rpm to
generate any meaningful power/braking effect so friction brakes are
blended in to take over down to zero. Even T brand cars cannot break
the laws of physics.
A CVT would help by spinning the motor faster and faster as the speed
decreased. And leaving it spinning when the car came to a halt ready
to transfer the energy mack into motion.
9:1. It would be an over complication v. known technology simple
friction brakes.
On 2024-12-06 13:58, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 06/12/2024 13:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/12/2024 13:12, Andy Bennett wrote:It would but BEV's tend to have a fixed reduction gearbox typically 8
On 06/12/2024 10:39, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 12/4/2024 2:13 PM, Joe wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 16:04:03 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/12/2024 15:14, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 11:10:00 +0000, Theo wrote:But that ultimately is simply recovering energy the fuel engine has >>>>>>> put in... Simply avoids wasting all the braking energy as heat.
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:A lot of the charging is regenerative. Not all, of course, but >>>>>>>> quite a bit.
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car and how >>>>>>>>>> there was no (fuel) cost in running it when below (I can't >>>>>>>>>> remember the exact figure) 40mph because the electric motor cut >>>>>>>>>> in.
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as
'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, err, >>>>>>>>> where is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean it's >>>>>>>>> just a petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission? >>>>>>>>
Yes, but that's quite a big advantage for city and motorway
driving and
for very hilly areas.
Clive Sinclair understood that, and the C5 had regenerative braking. >>>>>>
It's unfortunate that there isn't a table listing
the minimum regeneration speed.
At least one car, the motors don't need excitation, to be
turned into generators. That particular car, regenerates
all the way down to 0 MPH (on a flat surface).
But other cars, they need like 5kW for excitation, and when
the regeneration energy becomes 4.9kW, the car computer
switches the regen off (removes the excitation) and
switches to the friction brake. Such cars don't have the
same "mileage efficiency", and you can see this sometimes
in reviewer descriptions of the usage of the car, and
what is recorded on the dash for consumption.
While the "round trip" has a quoted efficiency, the
minimum regen speed also has quite an impact on how
useful the regen is. At lower speeds, there isn't a lot
of energy being returned to the battery, so if everything
below 10MPH was not used, that's not a big deal. But
cars that stop regen at 30MPH, that's not so good.
EBikes hardly ever have regen. It simplifies the design.
If you brake via regen suddenly enough, the output power
is three times the normal acceleration power. This
can be hard on the charge/discharge electronics.
In some cases, they can't actually absorb all the returned
energy. If you reduce speed a bit slower, the regen is a
better match for the charging capability. If you reduce speed
too slowly, it may not counterbalance the excitation power
required.
On a diesel electric locomotive (North American version),
the regen when braking on a hill is fed into a resistive
grid, which has a large fan for cooling. But now that
a "battery car" is being added to some, the regen when
it happens, can be fed to the battery car. The battery
car is used for haulage in the final miles into a city, to
cut down on diesel pollution within city limits.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/
f0e42bccb2ba69adb33eff2924d4ce1b0e7ecb8c/0_173_7952_4774/
master/7952.jpg?width=1140&dpr=2&s=none&crop=none
While that one looks like a yard engine, there is also a
version with engine-battery-engine, for larger loads.
Paul
No car regenerates down to 0mph. Simple physics. The motor in regen
mode simply does not have the flux reversal rate at low rpm to
generate any meaningful power/braking effect so friction brakes are
blended in to take over down to zero. Even T brand cars cannot break
the laws of physics.
A CVT would help by spinning the motor faster and faster as the speed
decreased. And leaving it spinning when the car came to a halt ready
to transfer the energy mack into motion.
or 9:1. It would be an over complication v. known technology simple
friction brakes.
And don't forget that modern electric cars have loads of power
electronics that can make a boost converter so as the car slows it can
still generate enough volts to get charge back into the battery, unlike
old DC stuff which had to fiddle with series/parallel configuration and varying the field current.
nib
On 06/12/2024 14:13, nib wrote:
On 2024-12-06 13:58, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 06/12/2024 13:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/12/2024 13:12, Andy Bennett wrote:It would but BEV's tend to have a fixed reduction gearbox typically 8
On 06/12/2024 10:39, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 12/4/2024 2:13 PM, Joe wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 16:04:03 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/12/2024 15:14, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 11:10:00 +0000, Theo wrote:But that ultimately is simply recovering energy the fuel engine has >>>>>>>> put in... Simply avoids wasting all the braking energy as heat. >>>>>>>>
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:A lot of the charging is regenerative. Not all, of course, but >>>>>>>>> quite a bit.
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car and >>>>>>>>>>> how
there was no (fuel) cost in running it when below (I can't >>>>>>>>>>> remember the exact figure) 40mph because the electric motor cut >>>>>>>>>>> in.
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as >>>>>>>>>> 'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, err, >>>>>>>>>> where is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean >>>>>>>>>> it's
just a petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission? >>>>>>>>>
Yes, but that's quite a big advantage for city and motorway
driving and
for very hilly areas.
Clive Sinclair understood that, and the C5 had regenerative braking. >>>>>>>
It's unfortunate that there isn't a table listing
the minimum regeneration speed.
At least one car, the motors don't need excitation, to be
turned into generators. That particular car, regenerates
all the way down to 0 MPH (on a flat surface).
But other cars, they need like 5kW for excitation, and when
the regeneration energy becomes 4.9kW, the car computer
switches the regen off (removes the excitation) and
switches to the friction brake. Such cars don't have the
same "mileage efficiency", and you can see this sometimes
in reviewer descriptions of the usage of the car, and
what is recorded on the dash for consumption.
While the "round trip" has a quoted efficiency, the
minimum regen speed also has quite an impact on how
useful the regen is. At lower speeds, there isn't a lot
of energy being returned to the battery, so if everything
below 10MPH was not used, that's not a big deal. But
cars that stop regen at 30MPH, that's not so good.
EBikes hardly ever have regen. It simplifies the design.
If you brake via regen suddenly enough, the output power
is three times the normal acceleration power. This
can be hard on the charge/discharge electronics.
In some cases, they can't actually absorb all the returned
energy. If you reduce speed a bit slower, the regen is a
better match for the charging capability. If you reduce speed
too slowly, it may not counterbalance the excitation power
required.
On a diesel electric locomotive (North American version),
the regen when braking on a hill is fed into a resistive
grid, which has a large fan for cooling. But now that
a "battery car" is being added to some, the regen when
it happens, can be fed to the battery car. The battery
car is used for haulage in the final miles into a city, to
cut down on diesel pollution within city limits.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/
f0e42bccb2ba69adb33eff2924d4ce1b0e7ecb8c/0_173_7952_4774/
master/7952.jpg?width=1140&dpr=2&s=none&crop=none
While that one looks like a yard engine, there is also a
version with engine-battery-engine, for larger loads.
Paul
No car regenerates down to 0mph. Simple physics. The motor in regen
mode simply does not have the flux reversal rate at low rpm to
generate any meaningful power/braking effect so friction brakes are
blended in to take over down to zero. Even T brand cars cannot
break the laws of physics.
A CVT would help by spinning the motor faster and faster as the
speed decreased. And leaving it spinning when the car came to a halt
ready to transfer the energy mack into motion.
or 9:1. It would be an over complication v. known technology simple
friction brakes.
And don't forget that modern electric cars have loads of power
electronics that can make a boost converter so as the car slows it can
still generate enough volts to get charge back into the battery,
unlike old DC stuff which had to fiddle with series/parallel
configuration and varying the field current.
nib
Braking via regen requires POWER to flow from the motor/gen to the
battery. Increasing the VOLTAGE does not increase the POWER, it merely reduces the CURRENT and thereby conserves physical laws.
On 2024-12-06 14:27, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 06/12/2024 14:13, nib wrote:
On 2024-12-06 13:58, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 06/12/2024 13:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/12/2024 13:12, Andy Bennett wrote:It would but BEV's tend to have a fixed reduction gearbox typically
On 06/12/2024 10:39, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 12/4/2024 2:13 PM, Joe wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 16:04:03 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/12/2024 15:14, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 11:10:00 +0000, Theo wrote:But that ultimately is simply recovering energy the fuel engine >>>>>>>>> has
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:A lot of the charging is regenerative. Not all, of course, but >>>>>>>>>> quite a bit.
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car >>>>>>>>>>>> and how
there was no (fuel) cost in running it when below (I can't >>>>>>>>>>>> remember the exact figure) 40mph because the electric motor cut >>>>>>>>>>>> in.
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as >>>>>>>>>>> 'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, >>>>>>>>>>> err,
where is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you mean >>>>>>>>>>> it's
just a petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission? >>>>>>>>>>
put in... Simply avoids wasting all the braking energy as heat. >>>>>>>>>
Yes, but that's quite a big advantage for city and motorway
driving and
for very hilly areas.
Clive Sinclair understood that, and the C5 had regenerative
braking.
It's unfortunate that there isn't a table listing
the minimum regeneration speed.
At least one car, the motors don't need excitation, to be
turned into generators. That particular car, regenerates
all the way down to 0 MPH (on a flat surface).
But other cars, they need like 5kW for excitation, and when
the regeneration energy becomes 4.9kW, the car computer
switches the regen off (removes the excitation) and
switches to the friction brake. Such cars don't have the
same "mileage efficiency", and you can see this sometimes
in reviewer descriptions of the usage of the car, and
what is recorded on the dash for consumption.
While the "round trip" has a quoted efficiency, the
minimum regen speed also has quite an impact on how
useful the regen is. At lower speeds, there isn't a lot
of energy being returned to the battery, so if everything
below 10MPH was not used, that's not a big deal. But
cars that stop regen at 30MPH, that's not so good.
EBikes hardly ever have regen. It simplifies the design.
If you brake via regen suddenly enough, the output power
is three times the normal acceleration power. This
can be hard on the charge/discharge electronics.
In some cases, they can't actually absorb all the returned
energy. If you reduce speed a bit slower, the regen is a
better match for the charging capability. If you reduce speed
too slowly, it may not counterbalance the excitation power
required.
On a diesel electric locomotive (North American version),
the regen when braking on a hill is fed into a resistive
grid, which has a large fan for cooling. But now that
a "battery car" is being added to some, the regen when
it happens, can be fed to the battery car. The battery
car is used for haulage in the final miles into a city, to
cut down on diesel pollution within city limits.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/
f0e42bccb2ba69adb33eff2924d4ce1b0e7ecb8c/0_173_7952_4774/
master/7952.jpg?width=1140&dpr=2&s=none&crop=none
While that one looks like a yard engine, there is also a
version with engine-battery-engine, for larger loads.
Paul
No car regenerates down to 0mph. Simple physics. The motor in
regen mode simply does not have the flux reversal rate at low rpm
to generate any meaningful power/braking effect so friction brakes >>>>>> are blended in to take over down to zero. Even T brand cars cannot >>>>>> break the laws of physics.
A CVT would help by spinning the motor faster and faster as the
speed decreased. And leaving it spinning when the car came to a
halt ready to transfer the energy mack into motion.
8 or 9:1. It would be an over complication v. known technology
simple friction brakes.
And don't forget that modern electric cars have loads of power
electronics that can make a boost converter so as the car slows it
can still generate enough volts to get charge back into the battery,
unlike old DC stuff which had to fiddle with series/parallel
configuration and varying the field current.
nib
Braking via regen requires POWER to flow from the motor/gen to the
battery. Increasing the VOLTAGE does not increase the POWER, it merely
reduces the CURRENT and thereby conserves physical laws.
No. The problem with regen with simple DC motors for example is that as
the speed reduces there is not enough voltage to drive ANY current back
into the battery, even though there is still energy to be recovered.
The boost converter allows the voltage to be increased to achieve enough voltage to actually push current into the battery, at a lower current of course to result in the same power being recovered. No laws are being
broken.
Think about a simple permanent magnet DC motor. To run at speed N from a supply voltage V its back emf at N must be less than V. So it cannot be
used directly for regen into the supply voltage because while slowing
down, speed less than N, its generated voltage cannot exceed V.
nib
On 06/12/2024 15:30, nib wrote:
On 2024-12-06 14:27, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 06/12/2024 14:13, nib wrote:
On 2024-12-06 13:58, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 06/12/2024 13:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/12/2024 13:12, Andy Bennett wrote:It would but BEV's tend to have a fixed reduction gearbox typically
On 06/12/2024 10:39, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 12/4/2024 2:13 PM, Joe wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 16:04:03 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/12/2024 15:14, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 11:10:00 +0000, Theo wrote:But that ultimately is simply recovering energy the fuel
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:A lot of the charging is regenerative. Not all, of course, but >>>>>>>>>>> quite a bit.
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car >>>>>>>>>>>>> and how
there was no (fuel) cost in running it when below (I can't >>>>>>>>>>>>> remember the exact figure) 40mph because the electric motor >>>>>>>>>>>>> cut
in.
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as >>>>>>>>>>>> 'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, >>>>>>>>>>>> err,
where is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you >>>>>>>>>>>> mean it's
just a petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission? >>>>>>>>>>>
engine has
put in... Simply avoids wasting all the braking energy as heat. >>>>>>>>>>
Yes, but that's quite a big advantage for city and motorway
driving and
for very hilly areas.
Clive Sinclair understood that, and the C5 had regenerative
braking.
It's unfortunate that there isn't a table listing
the minimum regeneration speed.
At least one car, the motors don't need excitation, to be
turned into generators. That particular car, regenerates
all the way down to 0 MPH (on a flat surface).
But other cars, they need like 5kW for excitation, and when
the regeneration energy becomes 4.9kW, the car computer
switches the regen off (removes the excitation) and
switches to the friction brake. Such cars don't have the
same "mileage efficiency", and you can see this sometimes
in reviewer descriptions of the usage of the car, and
what is recorded on the dash for consumption.
While the "round trip" has a quoted efficiency, the
minimum regen speed also has quite an impact on how
useful the regen is. At lower speeds, there isn't a lot
of energy being returned to the battery, so if everything
below 10MPH was not used, that's not a big deal. But
cars that stop regen at 30MPH, that's not so good.
EBikes hardly ever have regen. It simplifies the design.
If you brake via regen suddenly enough, the output power
is three times the normal acceleration power. This
can be hard on the charge/discharge electronics.
In some cases, they can't actually absorb all the returned
energy. If you reduce speed a bit slower, the regen is a
better match for the charging capability. If you reduce speed
too slowly, it may not counterbalance the excitation power
required.
On a diesel electric locomotive (North American version),
the regen when braking on a hill is fed into a resistive
grid, which has a large fan for cooling. But now that
a "battery car" is being added to some, the regen when
it happens, can be fed to the battery car. The battery
car is used for haulage in the final miles into a city, to
cut down on diesel pollution within city limits.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/
f0e42bccb2ba69adb33eff2924d4ce1b0e7ecb8c/0_173_7952_4774/
master/7952.jpg?width=1140&dpr=2&s=none&crop=none
While that one looks like a yard engine, there is also a
version with engine-battery-engine, for larger loads.
Paul
No car regenerates down to 0mph. Simple physics. The motor in
regen mode simply does not have the flux reversal rate at low rpm >>>>>>> to generate any meaningful power/braking effect so friction
brakes are blended in to take over down to zero. Even T brand
cars cannot break the laws of physics.
A CVT would help by spinning the motor faster and faster as the
speed decreased. And leaving it spinning when the car came to a
halt ready to transfer the energy mack into motion.
8 or 9:1. It would be an over complication v. known technology
simple friction brakes.
And don't forget that modern electric cars have loads of power
electronics that can make a boost converter so as the car slows it
can still generate enough volts to get charge back into the battery,
unlike old DC stuff which had to fiddle with series/parallel
configuration and varying the field current.
nib
Braking via regen requires POWER to flow from the motor/gen to the
battery. Increasing the VOLTAGE does not increase the POWER, it
merely reduces the CURRENT and thereby conserves physical laws.
No. The problem with regen with simple DC motors for example is that
as the speed reduces there is not enough voltage to drive ANY current
back into the battery, even though there is still energy to be recovered.
The boost converter allows the voltage to be increased to achieve
enough voltage to actually push current into the battery, at a lower
current of course to result in the same power being recovered. No laws
are being broken.
Think about a simple permanent magnet DC motor. To run at speed N from
a supply voltage V its back emf at N must be less than V. So it cannot
be used directly for regen into the supply voltage because while
slowing down, speed less than N, its generated voltage cannot exceed V.
nib
Gnattpower regen from the motor/gen gives you gnattpower breaking no
matter which way you cut it.
Btw motors used in EV's tend to be multiphase synchronous motors.
On 2024-12-06 16:00, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 06/12/2024 15:30, nib wrote:
On 2024-12-06 14:27, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 06/12/2024 14:13, nib wrote:
On 2024-12-06 13:58, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 06/12/2024 13:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/12/2024 13:12, Andy Bennett wrote:It would but BEV's tend to have a fixed reduction gearbox
On 06/12/2024 10:39, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 12/4/2024 2:13 PM, Joe wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 16:04:03 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/12/2024 15:14, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 11:10:00 +0000, Theo wrote:But that ultimately is simply recovering energy the fuel >>>>>>>>>>> engine has
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:A lot of the charging is regenerative. Not all, of course, but >>>>>>>>>>>> quite a bit.
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and how
there was no (fuel) cost in running it when below (I can't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> remember the exact figure) 40mph because the electric >>>>>>>>>>>>>> motor cut
in.
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as >>>>>>>>>>>>> 'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. >>>>>>>>>>>>> So, err,
where is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you >>>>>>>>>>>>> mean it's
just a petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission? >>>>>>>>>>>>
put in... Simply avoids wasting all the braking energy as heat. >>>>>>>>>>>
Yes, but that's quite a big advantage for city and motorway >>>>>>>>>> driving and
for very hilly areas.
Clive Sinclair understood that, and the C5 had regenerative >>>>>>>>>> braking.
It's unfortunate that there isn't a table listing
the minimum regeneration speed.
At least one car, the motors don't need excitation, to be
turned into generators. That particular car, regenerates
all the way down to 0 MPH (on a flat surface).
But other cars, they need like 5kW for excitation, and when
the regeneration energy becomes 4.9kW, the car computer
switches the regen off (removes the excitation) and
switches to the friction brake. Such cars don't have the
same "mileage efficiency", and you can see this sometimes
in reviewer descriptions of the usage of the car, and
what is recorded on the dash for consumption.
While the "round trip" has a quoted efficiency, the
minimum regen speed also has quite an impact on how
useful the regen is. At lower speeds, there isn't a lot
of energy being returned to the battery, so if everything
below 10MPH was not used, that's not a big deal. But
cars that stop regen at 30MPH, that's not so good.
EBikes hardly ever have regen. It simplifies the design.
If you brake via regen suddenly enough, the output power
is three times the normal acceleration power. This
can be hard on the charge/discharge electronics.
In some cases, they can't actually absorb all the returned
energy. If you reduce speed a bit slower, the regen is a
better match for the charging capability. If you reduce speed >>>>>>>>> too slowly, it may not counterbalance the excitation power
required.
On a diesel electric locomotive (North American version),
the regen when braking on a hill is fed into a resistive
grid, which has a large fan for cooling. But now that
a "battery car" is being added to some, the regen when
it happens, can be fed to the battery car. The battery
car is used for haulage in the final miles into a city, to
cut down on diesel pollution within city limits.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/
f0e42bccb2ba69adb33eff2924d4ce1b0e7ecb8c/0_173_7952_4774/
master/7952.jpg?width=1140&dpr=2&s=none&crop=none
While that one looks like a yard engine, there is also a
version with engine-battery-engine, for larger loads.
Paul
No car regenerates down to 0mph. Simple physics. The motor in
regen mode simply does not have the flux reversal rate at low
rpm to generate any meaningful power/braking effect so friction >>>>>>>> brakes are blended in to take over down to zero. Even T brand
cars cannot break the laws of physics.
A CVT would help by spinning the motor faster and faster as the
speed decreased. And leaving it spinning when the car came to a
halt ready to transfer the energy mack into motion.
typically 8 or 9:1. It would be an over complication v. known
technology simple friction brakes.
And don't forget that modern electric cars have loads of power
electronics that can make a boost converter so as the car slows it
can still generate enough volts to get charge back into the
battery, unlike old DC stuff which had to fiddle with
series/parallel configuration and varying the field current.
nib
Braking via regen requires POWER to flow from the motor/gen to the
battery. Increasing the VOLTAGE does not increase the POWER, it
merely reduces the CURRENT and thereby conserves physical laws.
No. The problem with regen with simple DC motors for example is that
as the speed reduces there is not enough voltage to drive ANY current
back into the battery, even though there is still energy to be
recovered.
The boost converter allows the voltage to be increased to achieve
enough voltage to actually push current into the battery, at a lower
current of course to result in the same power being recovered. No
laws are being broken.
Think about a simple permanent magnet DC motor. To run at speed N
from a supply voltage V its back emf at N must be less than V. So it
cannot be used directly for regen into the supply voltage because
while slowing down, speed less than N, its generated voltage cannot
exceed V.
nib
Gnattpower regen from the motor/gen gives you gnattpower breaking no
matter which way you cut it.
Btw motors used in EV's tend to be multiphase synchronous motors.
Indeed they are. Or asynchronous in some cases.
I don't quite get what you are talking about. Regen in modern cars is
quite powerful. Not as powerful as friction braking but if you drive carefully you can almost avoid using the friction brake. The motor in
mine is 100kW and it can regen up to about 40kW and come down to walking speed without the friction brake, so you need only to touch the brake
for that last small bit.
nib
nib
On 06/12/2024 15:30, nib wrote:
On 2024-12-06 14:27, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 06/12/2024 14:13, nib wrote:
On 2024-12-06 13:58, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 06/12/2024 13:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/12/2024 13:12, Andy Bennett wrote:It would but BEV's tend to have a fixed reduction gearbox typically
On 06/12/2024 10:39, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 12/4/2024 2:13 PM, Joe wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 16:04:03 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/12/2024 15:14, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 11:10:00 +0000, Theo wrote:But that ultimately is simply recovering energy the fuel
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:A lot of the charging is regenerative. Not all, of course, but >>>>>>>>>>> quite a bit.
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car >>>>>>>>>>>>> and how
there was no (fuel) cost in running it when below (I can't >>>>>>>>>>>>> remember the exact figure) 40mph because the electric motor >>>>>>>>>>>>> cut
in.
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as >>>>>>>>>>>> 'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. So, >>>>>>>>>>>> err,
where is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you >>>>>>>>>>>> mean it's
just a petrol car with a slightly more efficient transmission? >>>>>>>>>>>
engine has
put in... Simply avoids wasting all the braking energy as heat. >>>>>>>>>>
Yes, but that's quite a big advantage for city and motorway
driving and
for very hilly areas.
Clive Sinclair understood that, and the C5 had regenerative
braking.
It's unfortunate that there isn't a table listing
the minimum regeneration speed.
At least one car, the motors don't need excitation, to be
turned into generators. That particular car, regenerates
all the way down to 0 MPH (on a flat surface).
But other cars, they need like 5kW for excitation, and when
the regeneration energy becomes 4.9kW, the car computer
switches the regen off (removes the excitation) and
switches to the friction brake. Such cars don't have the
same "mileage efficiency", and you can see this sometimes
in reviewer descriptions of the usage of the car, and
what is recorded on the dash for consumption.
While the "round trip" has a quoted efficiency, the
minimum regen speed also has quite an impact on how
useful the regen is. At lower speeds, there isn't a lot
of energy being returned to the battery, so if everything
below 10MPH was not used, that's not a big deal. But
cars that stop regen at 30MPH, that's not so good.
EBikes hardly ever have regen. It simplifies the design.
If you brake via regen suddenly enough, the output power
is three times the normal acceleration power. This
can be hard on the charge/discharge electronics.
In some cases, they can't actually absorb all the returned
energy. If you reduce speed a bit slower, the regen is a
better match for the charging capability. If you reduce speed
too slowly, it may not counterbalance the excitation power
required.
On a diesel electric locomotive (North American version),
the regen when braking on a hill is fed into a resistive
grid, which has a large fan for cooling. But now that
a "battery car" is being added to some, the regen when
it happens, can be fed to the battery car. The battery
car is used for haulage in the final miles into a city, to
cut down on diesel pollution within city limits.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/
f0e42bccb2ba69adb33eff2924d4ce1b0e7ecb8c/0_173_7952_4774/
master/7952.jpg?width=1140&dpr=2&s=none&crop=none
While that one looks like a yard engine, there is also a
version with engine-battery-engine, for larger loads.
Paul
No car regenerates down to 0mph. Simple physics. The motor in
regen mode simply does not have the flux reversal rate at low rpm >>>>>>> to generate any meaningful power/braking effect so friction
brakes are blended in to take over down to zero. Even T brand
cars cannot break the laws of physics.
A CVT would help by spinning the motor faster and faster as the
speed decreased. And leaving it spinning when the car came to a
halt ready to transfer the energy mack into motion.
8 or 9:1. It would be an over complication v. known technology
simple friction brakes.
And don't forget that modern electric cars have loads of power
electronics that can make a boost converter so as the car slows it
can still generate enough volts to get charge back into the battery,
unlike old DC stuff which had to fiddle with series/parallel
configuration and varying the field current.
nib
Braking via regen requires POWER to flow from the motor/gen to the
battery. Increasing the VOLTAGE does not increase the POWER, it
merely reduces the CURRENT and thereby conserves physical laws.
No. The problem with regen with simple DC motors for example is that
as the speed reduces there is not enough voltage to drive ANY current
back into the battery, even though there is still energy to be recovered.
The boost converter allows the voltage to be increased to achieve
enough voltage to actually push current into the battery, at a lower
current of course to result in the same power being recovered. No laws
are being broken.
Think about a simple permanent magnet DC motor. To run at speed N from
a supply voltage V its back emf at N must be less than V. So it cannot
be used directly for regen into the supply voltage because while
slowing down, speed less than N, its generated voltage cannot exceed V.
nib
Gnattpower regen from the motor/gen gives you gnattpower breaking no
matter which way you cut it.
Btw motors used in EV's tend to be multiphase synchronous motors.
Apologies for the breaking/braking trap I just unwittingly fell in to!
On 06/12/2024 16:27, nib wrote:
On 2024-12-06 16:00, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 06/12/2024 15:30, nib wrote:
Gnattpower regen from the motor/gen gives you gnattpower breaking no
matter which way you cut it.
Btw motors used in EV's tend to be multiphase synchronous motors.
Indeed they are. Or asynchronous in some cases.
I don't quite get what you are talking about. Regen in modern cars is
quite powerful. Not as powerful as friction braking but if you drive carefully you can almost avoid using the friction brake. The motor in
mine is 100kW and it can regen up to about 40kW and come down to walking speed without the friction brake, so you need only to touch the brake
for that last small bit.
Precisely!!
I am still thinking that when self driving cars finally emerge, they will highlight the lunacy of leaving a car on a drive 90% of the time.
Andy Bennett <aben@ben37j.com> wrote:
On 06/12/2024 16:27, nib wrote:
On 2024-12-06 16:00, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 06/12/2024 15:30, nib wrote:
Gnattpower regen from the motor/gen gives you gnattpower breaking no
matter which way you cut it.
Btw motors used in EV's tend to be multiphase synchronous motors.
Indeed they are. Or asynchronous in some cases.
I don't quite get what you are talking about. Regen in modern cars is
quite powerful. Not as powerful as friction braking but if you drive
carefully you can almost avoid using the friction brake. The motor in
mine is 100kW and it can regen up to about 40kW and come down to walking >>> speed without the friction brake, so you need only to touch the brake
for that last small bit.
Precisely!!
You need to use the friction brakes regularly to prevent the discs from getting rusty. Ideally you want a bit more energy than you have at 3mph,
but it's a reason why there's no point trying to avoid using the friction brakes completely.
Theo
Andy Bennett <aben@ben37j.com> wrote:
On 06/12/2024 16:27, nib wrote:
On 2024-12-06 16:00, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 06/12/2024 15:30, nib wrote:
Gnattpower regen from the motor/gen gives you gnattpower breaking no
matter which way you cut it.
Btw motors used in EV's tend to be multiphase synchronous motors.
Indeed they are. Or asynchronous in some cases.
I don't quite get what you are talking about. Regen in modern cars is
quite powerful. Not as powerful as friction braking but if you drive
carefully you can almost avoid using the friction brake. The motor in
mine is 100kW and it can regen up to about 40kW and come down to walking >>> speed without the friction brake, so you need only to touch the brake
for that last small bit.
Precisely!!
You need to use the friction brakes regularly to prevent the discs from getting rusty. Ideally you want a bit more energy than you have at 3mph,
but it's a reason why there's no point trying to avoid using the friction brakes completely.
Theo
On 2024-12-06 17:11, Theo wrote:
Andy Bennett <aben@ben37j.com> wrote:
On 06/12/2024 16:27, nib wrote:
On 2024-12-06 16:00, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 06/12/2024 15:30, nib wrote:
Gnattpower regen from the motor/gen gives you gnattpower breaking no >>>>> matter which way you cut it.
Btw motors used in EV's tend to be multiphase synchronous motors.
Indeed they are. Or asynchronous in some cases.
I don't quite get what you are talking about. Regen in modern cars is
quite powerful. Not as powerful as friction braking but if you drive
carefully you can almost avoid using the friction brake. The motor in
mine is 100kW and it can regen up to about 40kW and come down to
walking speed without the friction brake, so you need only to touch
the brake for that last small bit.
Precisely!!
You need to use the friction brakes regularly to prevent the discs from
getting rusty. Ideally you want a bit more energy than you have at
3mph,
but it's a reason why there's no point trying to avoid using the
friction brakes completely.
Theo
I don't know about others, but given that regen cannot match what
friction braking can do, in traffic it is sometimes hard to time your deceleration to do it all on regen when others are friction braking, so
I use the brakes quite often enough!
On 06/12/2024 16:27, nib wrote:
On 2024-12-06 16:00, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 06/12/2024 15:30, nib wrote:
On 2024-12-06 14:27, Andy Bennett wrote:Gnattpower regen from the motor/gen gives you gnattpower breaking no
On 06/12/2024 14:13, nib wrote:
On 2024-12-06 13:58, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 06/12/2024 13:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/12/2024 13:12, Andy Bennett wrote:It would but BEV's tend to have a fixed reduction gearbox
On 06/12/2024 10:39, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 12/4/2024 2:13 PM, Joe wrote:No car regenerates down to 0mph. Simple physics. The motor in >>>>>>>>> regen mode simply does not have the flux reversal rate at low >>>>>>>>> rpm to generate any meaningful power/braking effect so friction >>>>>>>>> brakes are blended in to take over down to zero. Even T brand >>>>>>>>> cars cannot break the laws of physics.
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 16:04:03 +0000 The Natural Philosopher >>>>>>>>>>> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:It's unfortunate that there isn't a table listing the minimum >>>>>>>>>> regeneration speed.
On 04/12/2024 15:14, Bob Eager wrote:Yes, but that's quite a big advantage for city and motorway >>>>>>>>>>> driving and for very hilly areas.
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 11:10:00 +0000, Theo wrote:But that ultimately is simply recovering energy the fuel >>>>>>>>>>>> engine has put in... Simply avoids wasting all the braking >>>>>>>>>>>> energy as heat.
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and how there was no (fuel) cost in running it when below >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (I can't remember the exact figure) 40mph because the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electric motor cut in.
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, err,
where is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean it's just a petrol car with a slightly more efficient >>>>>>>>>>>>>> transmission?
A lot of the charging is regenerative. Not all, of course, >>>>>>>>>>>>> but quite a bit.
Clive Sinclair understood that, and the C5 had regenerative >>>>>>>>>>> braking.
At least one car, the motors don't need excitation, to be
turned into generators. That particular car, regenerates all >>>>>>>>>> the way down to 0 MPH (on a flat surface).
But other cars, they need like 5kW for excitation, and when the >>>>>>>>>> regeneration energy becomes 4.9kW, the car computer switches >>>>>>>>>> the regen off (removes the excitation) and switches to the >>>>>>>>>> friction brake. Such cars don't have the same "mileage
efficiency", and you can see this sometimes in reviewer
descriptions of the usage of the car, and what is recorded on >>>>>>>>>> the dash for consumption.
While the "round trip" has a quoted efficiency, the minimum >>>>>>>>>> regen speed also has quite an impact on how useful the regen >>>>>>>>>> is. At lower speeds, there isn't a lot of energy being returned >>>>>>>>>> to the battery, so if everything below 10MPH was not used, >>>>>>>>>> that's not a big deal. But cars that stop regen at 30MPH,
that's not so good.
EBikes hardly ever have regen. It simplifies the design.
If you brake via regen suddenly enough, the output power is >>>>>>>>>> three times the normal acceleration power. This can be hard on >>>>>>>>>> the charge/discharge electronics.
In some cases, they can't actually absorb all the returned >>>>>>>>>> energy. If you reduce speed a bit slower, the regen is a better >>>>>>>>>> match for the charging capability. If you reduce speed too >>>>>>>>>> slowly, it may not counterbalance the excitation power
required.
On a diesel electric locomotive (North American version), the >>>>>>>>>> regen when braking on a hill is fed into a resistive grid, >>>>>>>>>> which has a large fan for cooling. But now that a "battery car" >>>>>>>>>> is being added to some, the regen when it happens, can be fed >>>>>>>>>> to the battery car. The battery car is used for haulage in the >>>>>>>>>> final miles into a city, to cut down on diesel pollution within >>>>>>>>>> city limits.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/
f0e42bccb2ba69adb33eff2924d4ce1b0e7ecb8c/0_173_7952_4774/
master/7952.jpg?width=1140&dpr=2&s=none&crop=none
While that one looks like a yard engine, there is also a
version with engine-battery-engine, for larger loads.
Paul
A CVT would help by spinning the motor faster and faster as the >>>>>>>> speed decreased. And leaving it spinning when the car came to a >>>>>>>> halt ready to transfer the energy mack into motion.
typically 8 or 9:1. It would be an over complication v. known
technology simple friction brakes.
And don't forget that modern electric cars have loads of power
electronics that can make a boost converter so as the car slows it >>>>>> can still generate enough volts to get charge back into the
battery, unlike old DC stuff which had to fiddle with
series/parallel configuration and varying the field current.
nib
Braking via regen requires POWER to flow from the motor/gen to the
battery. Increasing the VOLTAGE does not increase the POWER, it
merely reduces the CURRENT and thereby conserves physical laws.
No. The problem with regen with simple DC motors for example is that
as the speed reduces there is not enough voltage to drive ANY current
back into the battery, even though there is still energy to be
recovered.
The boost converter allows the voltage to be increased to achieve
enough voltage to actually push current into the battery, at a lower
current of course to result in the same power being recovered. No
laws are being broken.
Think about a simple permanent magnet DC motor. To run at speed N
from a supply voltage V its back emf at N must be less than V. So it
cannot be used directly for regen into the supply voltage because
while slowing down, speed less than N, its generated voltage cannot
exceed V.
nib
matter which way you cut it.
Btw motors used in EV's tend to be multiphase synchronous motors.
Indeed they are. Or asynchronous in some cases.
I don't quite get what you are talking about. Regen in modern cars is
quite powerful. Not as powerful as friction braking but if you drive
carefully you can almost avoid using the friction brake. The motor in
mine is 100kW and it can regen up to about 40kW and come down to
walking speed without the friction brake, so you need only to touch the
brake for that last small bit.
nib
nib
Precisely!!
Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
I am still thinking that when self driving cars finally emerge, they will
highlight the lunacy of leaving a car on a drive 90% of the time.
People do that to have guaranteed use of the vehicle. If you use it to
drive to work at 8am, that's when everybody else also wants to use theirs.
So you'd find you can't get one when you want one.
Also, if the same vehicle was used 10x more, you'd find it fell apart 10x quicker. To avoid that you'd have to build it more robustly - more like a train than a car, with similar costs. It would also need a similar maintenance regime to make it last as long as a train - go in for servicing once a week.
(The same is why cheap DIY tools don't last when used professionally - because they're only specced to be used for a few minutes a year, not 40 hours a week. And they aren't made to be serviced)
Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
I am still thinking that when self driving cars finally emerge, they
will highlight the lunacy of leaving a car on a drive 90% of the time.
People do that to have guaranteed use of the vehicle. If you use it to
drive to work at 8am, that's when everybody else also wants to use
theirs. So you'd find you can't get one when you want one.
Also, if the same vehicle was used 10x more, you'd find it fell apart
10x quicker. To avoid that you'd have to build it more robustly - more
like a train than a car, with similar costs. It would also need a
similar maintenance regime to make it last as long as a train - go in
for servicing once a week.
(The same is why cheap DIY tools don't last when used professionally - because they're only specced to be used for a few minutes a year, not 40 hours a week. And they aren't made to be serviced)
Theo
I have recently discovered a small problem. On short journeys the actial brakes are used so little that I am getting corrosion of the discs.
On 07/12/2024 07:37, RJH wrote:
Well, that little lot is pretty much made up. But it does get to what I think is one of the main issues - what people /think/ car sharing is
all about*.
It depends a lot on your circumstances. If you are retired you probably
have a different view about car use to those who may be commuting most
days of the year and if time is more important than costs.
Now retired I have more of a choice when I go to the large supermarket
and I can avoid using the roads at the busy times, especially school run times.
Often wondered how low range decent (Lidl/Aldi say) stack up against pro-grade hand and power tools.
Until you use a tool with some quality you possibly don't realise how
much time it saves or how much easier it is to provide a quality output.
For the one off or infrequent job a cheap tool may be more than adequate
but the more expensive tool may have metal gearbox, rather than plastic,
the base plates or guides may be a thicker material and don't bend when
in use, better manufacturing tolerance may mean the tool doesn't vibrate
or the chuck runs true. A cheap tool may/will also come with a cheap consumable and often just changing a blade can make a significant
difference.
-
However, the history of the average person being able to own their own
means of transport is so short as to hardly warrant a page in "The
History of the World from stone axes". And may well turn out - like
smoking - to be a blip in the line of time.
We are already seeing cars getting more expensive ...
In 2019, the golden rule was "we can't possibly do
remote working". It was an accepted fact of modern life. Come 2020 and
all of a sudden *everybody* (that didn't want to go bust) mysteriously discovered they could offer remote working. All the woes of the workplace
we are now seeing around WFH stem from a workforce that realised they
were being lied to.
Tools in the hands of people using them every day are usually not
handled with kid gloves nor are they cleaned at the end of the day.
While in the hands of a DIYer a Aldi/Lidl tool may last many years I
doubt that on a typical work site they would last more than a week.
On Fri, 06 Dec 2024 17:19:13 +0000, Theo wrote:
Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
I am still thinking that when self driving cars finally emerge, they
will highlight the lunacy of leaving a car on a drive 90% of the time.
People do that to have guaranteed use of the vehicle. If you use it to
drive to work at 8am, that's when everybody else also wants to use
theirs. So you'd find you can't get one when you want one.
Also, if the same vehicle was used 10x more, you'd find it fell apart
10x quicker. To avoid that you'd have to build it more robustly - more
like a train than a car, with similar costs. It would also need a
similar maintenance regime to make it last as long as a train - go in
for servicing once a week.
(The same is why cheap DIY tools don't last when used professionally -
because they're only specced to be used for a few minutes a year, not 40
hours a week. And they aren't made to be serviced)
Theo
Nothing you say is wrong. For 2024.
However, the history of the average person being able to own their own
means of transport is so short as to hardly warrant a page in "The
History of the World from stone axes". And may well turn out - like
smoking - to be a blip in the line of time.
We are already seeing cars getting more expensive
whole Uber model [passim] and it's not impossible that we see syndicates buying the - fucking expensive - autonomous cars and then running them
via an Uber-type app to extract maximum value from them.
The "Everyone wants them at once" problem is easily solved with a
combination of surge pricing and - shock horror - *sharing*. Which for
people old enough to remember was how Uber started.
On 07/12/2024 10:44, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2024 17:19:13 +0000, Theo wrote:
Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
I am still thinking that when self driving cars finally emerge, they
will highlight the lunacy of leaving a car on a drive 90% of the time.
People do that to have guaranteed use of the vehicle. If you use it to
drive to work at 8am, that's when everybody else also wants to use
theirs. So you'd find you can't get one when you want one.
Also, if the same vehicle was used 10x more, you'd find it fell apart
10x quicker. To avoid that you'd have to build it more robustly - more
like a train than a car, with similar costs. It would also need a
similar maintenance regime to make it last as long as a train - go in
for servicing once a week.
(The same is why cheap DIY tools don't last when used professionally -
because they're only specced to be used for a few minutes a year, not 40 >>> hours a week. And they aren't made to be serviced)
Nothing you say is wrong. For 2024.
However, the history of the average person being able to own their own
means of transport is so short as to hardly warrant a page in "The
History of the World from stone axes". And may well turn out - like
smoking - to be a blip in the line of time.
We are already seeing cars getting more expensive
On 7 Dec 2024 at 10:44:08 GMT, "Jethro_uk" <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com>
wrote:
However, the history of the average person being able to own their own means of transport is so short as to hardly warrant a page in "The
History of the World from stone axes". And may well turn out - like
smoking - to be a blip in the line of time.
While I agree that this is quite possibly what will happen, getting the masses to accept it will be interesting.
We are already seeing cars getting more expensive ...
There'll just be more second-hand rattletraps on the road.
In 2019, the golden rule was "we can't possibly do remote working". It
was an accepted fact of modern life. Come 2020 and all of a sudden *everybody* (that didn't want to go bust) mysteriously discovered they could offer remote working. All the woes of the workplace we are now
seeing around WFH stem from a workforce that realised they were being
lied to.
Well, they found they could offer WFH simply because that allowed there
to be at least *some* productivity from all those laid-off bods, but now
they want people back in the office in order to restore pre-pandemic productivity levsls.
Braking via regen requires POWER to flow from the motor/gen to the
battery. Increasing the VOLTAGE does not increase the POWER, it merely reduces the CURRENT and thereby conserves physical laws.
Gnattpower regen from the motor/gen gives you gnattpower breaking no
matter which way you cut it.
Btw motors used in EV's tend to be multiphase synchronous motors.
Tools in the hands of people using them every day are usually not
handled with kid gloves nor are they cleaned at the end of the day.
While in the hands of a DIYer a Aldi/Lidl tool may last many years I
doubt that on a typical work site they would last more than a week.
Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote:You would do better to try and trail the brakes at light pressure for a
I have recently discovered a small problem. On short journeys the actial
brakes are used so little that I am getting corrosion of the discs.
I had to replace discs and pads because the caliper siezed through lack of use...
I now try to do an emergency stop once a week or so, just to keep everything polished.
Theo
On 7 Dec 2024 at 11:16:01 GMT, "SteveW" <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
On 07/12/2024 10:44, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2024 17:19:13 +0000, Theo wrote:
Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
I am still thinking that when self driving cars finally emerge, they >>>> will highlight the lunacy of leaving a car on a drive 90% of the
time.
People do that to have guaranteed use of the vehicle. If you use it
to drive to work at 8am, that's when everybody else also wants to use
theirs. So you'd find you can't get one when you want one.
Also, if the same vehicle was used 10x more, you'd find it fell apart
10x quicker. To avoid that you'd have to build it more robustly -
more like a train than a car, with similar costs. It would also need
a similar maintenance regime to make it last as long as a train - go
in for servicing once a week.
(The same is why cheap DIY tools don't last when used professionally
- because they're only specced to be used for a few minutes a year,
not 40 hours a week. And they aren't made to be serviced)
Nothing you say is wrong. For 2024.
However, the history of the average person being able to own their own
means of transport is so short as to hardly warrant a page in "The
History of the World from stone axes". And may well turn out - like
smoking - to be a blip in the line of time.
We are already seeing cars getting more expensive
Perhspa there'll be a big increase in the usage of electric bikes /
scooters - which will require draconian regulation to overcome the shitty-battery syndrome with accompanying house fires.
the history of the average person being able to own their own
means of transport is so short as to hardly warrant a page in "The
History of the World from stone axes". And may well turn out - like
smoking - to be a blip in the line of time.
Perhspa there'll be a big increase in the usage of electric bikes / scooters -
which will require draconian regulation to overcome the shitty-battery syndrome with accompanying house fires.
On 07/12/2024 09:51, alan_m wrote:
Tools in the hands of people using them every day are usually not
handled with kid gloves nor are they cleaned at the end of the day.
While in the hands of a DIYer a Aldi/Lidl tool may last many years I
doubt that on a typical work site they would last more than a week.
I've seen them not last out the day
In article <lripfjFm31tU1@mid.individual.net>, Tim Streater <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
On 7 Dec 2024 at 11:16:01 GMT, "SteveW" <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
On 07/12/2024 10:44, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2024 17:19:13 +0000, Theo wrote:
Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
I am still thinking that when self driving cars finally emerge, they >>>>>> will highlight the lunacy of leaving a car on a drive 90% of the
time.
People do that to have guaranteed use of the vehicle. If you use it >>>>> to drive to work at 8am, that's when everybody else also wants to use >>>>> theirs. So you'd find you can't get one when you want one.
Also, if the same vehicle was used 10x more, you'd find it fell apart >>>>> 10x quicker. To avoid that you'd have to build it more robustly -
more like a train than a car, with similar costs. It would also need >>>>> a similar maintenance regime to make it last as long as a train - go >>>>> in for servicing once a week.
(The same is why cheap DIY tools don't last when used professionally >>>>> - because they're only specced to be used for a few minutes a year,
not 40 hours a week. And they aren't made to be serviced)
Nothing you say is wrong. For 2024.
However, the history of the average person being able to own their own >>>> means of transport is so short as to hardly warrant a page in "The
History of the World from stone axes". And may well turn out - like
smoking - to be a blip in the line of time.
We are already seeing cars getting more expensive
Perhspa there'll be a big increase in the usage of electric bikes /
scooters - which will require draconian regulation to overcome the
shitty-battery syndrome with accompanying house fires.
I wouldn't want to be riding a bike, electric or otherwise, today.
How much of that expense is in ever increasing requirements for manufacturers to add cameras/radar and associated computers to provide automatic braking, lane departure control, etc.? Plus the (hopefully) temporary blip of the starting
up of EV manufacturing.
On Fri, 06 Dec 2024 16:43:47 +0000, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 06/12/2024 16:27, nib wrote:
On 2024-12-06 16:00, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 06/12/2024 15:30, nib wrote:
On 2024-12-06 14:27, Andy Bennett wrote:Gnattpower regen from the motor/gen gives you gnattpower breaking no
On 06/12/2024 14:13, nib wrote:
On 2024-12-06 13:58, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 06/12/2024 13:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/12/2024 13:12, Andy Bennett wrote:It would but BEV's tend to have a fixed reduction gearbox
On 06/12/2024 10:39, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 12/4/2024 2:13 PM, Joe wrote:No car regenerates down to 0mph. Simple physics. The motor in >>>>>>>>>> regen mode simply does not have the flux reversal rate at low >>>>>>>>>> rpm to generate any meaningful power/braking effect so friction >>>>>>>>>> brakes are blended in to take over down to zero. Even T brand >>>>>>>>>> cars cannot break the laws of physics.
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 16:04:03 +0000 The Natural Philosopher >>>>>>>>>>>> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:It's unfortunate that there isn't a table listing the minimum >>>>>>>>>>> regeneration speed.
On 04/12/2024 15:14, Bob Eager wrote:Yes, but that's quite a big advantage for city and motorway >>>>>>>>>>>> driving and for very hilly areas.
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 11:10:00 +0000, Theo wrote:But that ultimately is simply recovering energy the fuel >>>>>>>>>>>>> engine has put in... Simply avoids wasting all the braking >>>>>>>>>>>>> energy as heat.
AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and how there was no (fuel) cost in running it when below >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (I can't remember the exact figure) 40mph because the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electric motor cut in.
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, err,
where is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean it's just a petrol car with a slightly more efficient >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transmission?
A lot of the charging is regenerative. Not all, of course, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but quite a bit.
Clive Sinclair understood that, and the C5 had regenerative >>>>>>>>>>>> braking.
At least one car, the motors don't need excitation, to be >>>>>>>>>>> turned into generators. That particular car, regenerates all >>>>>>>>>>> the way down to 0 MPH (on a flat surface).
But other cars, they need like 5kW for excitation, and when the >>>>>>>>>>> regeneration energy becomes 4.9kW, the car computer switches >>>>>>>>>>> the regen off (removes the excitation) and switches to the >>>>>>>>>>> friction brake. Such cars don't have the same "mileage
efficiency", and you can see this sometimes in reviewer
descriptions of the usage of the car, and what is recorded on >>>>>>>>>>> the dash for consumption.
While the "round trip" has a quoted efficiency, the minimum >>>>>>>>>>> regen speed also has quite an impact on how useful the regen >>>>>>>>>>> is. At lower speeds, there isn't a lot of energy being returned >>>>>>>>>>> to the battery, so if everything below 10MPH was not used, >>>>>>>>>>> that's not a big deal. But cars that stop regen at 30MPH, >>>>>>>>>>> that's not so good.
EBikes hardly ever have regen. It simplifies the design. >>>>>>>>>>>
If you brake via regen suddenly enough, the output power is >>>>>>>>>>> three times the normal acceleration power. This can be hard on >>>>>>>>>>> the charge/discharge electronics.
In some cases, they can't actually absorb all the returned >>>>>>>>>>> energy. If you reduce speed a bit slower, the regen is a better >>>>>>>>>>> match for the charging capability. If you reduce speed too >>>>>>>>>>> slowly, it may not counterbalance the excitation power
required.
On a diesel electric locomotive (North American version), the >>>>>>>>>>> regen when braking on a hill is fed into a resistive grid, >>>>>>>>>>> which has a large fan for cooling. But now that a "battery car" >>>>>>>>>>> is being added to some, the regen when it happens, can be fed >>>>>>>>>>> to the battery car. The battery car is used for haulage in the >>>>>>>>>>> final miles into a city, to cut down on diesel pollution within >>>>>>>>>>> city limits.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/
f0e42bccb2ba69adb33eff2924d4ce1b0e7ecb8c/0_173_7952_4774/ >>>>>>>>>>> master/7952.jpg?width=1140&dpr=2&s=none&crop=none
While that one looks like a yard engine, there is also a >>>>>>>>>>> version with engine-battery-engine, for larger loads.
Paul
A CVT would help by spinning the motor faster and faster as the >>>>>>>>> speed decreased. And leaving it spinning when the car came to a >>>>>>>>> halt ready to transfer the energy mack into motion.
typically 8 or 9:1. It would be an over complication v. known
technology simple friction brakes.
And don't forget that modern electric cars have loads of power
electronics that can make a boost converter so as the car slows it >>>>>>> can still generate enough volts to get charge back into the
battery, unlike old DC stuff which had to fiddle with
series/parallel configuration and varying the field current.
nib
Braking via regen requires POWER to flow from the motor/gen to the >>>>>> battery. Increasing the VOLTAGE does not increase the POWER, it
merely reduces the CURRENT and thereby conserves physical laws.
No. The problem with regen with simple DC motors for example is that >>>>> as the speed reduces there is not enough voltage to drive ANY current >>>>> back into the battery, even though there is still energy to be
recovered.
The boost converter allows the voltage to be increased to achieve
enough voltage to actually push current into the battery, at a lower >>>>> current of course to result in the same power being recovered. No
laws are being broken.
Think about a simple permanent magnet DC motor. To run at speed N
from a supply voltage V its back emf at N must be less than V. So it >>>>> cannot be used directly for regen into the supply voltage because
while slowing down, speed less than N, its generated voltage cannot
exceed V.
nib
matter which way you cut it.
Btw motors used in EV's tend to be multiphase synchronous motors.
Indeed they are. Or asynchronous in some cases.
I don't quite get what you are talking about. Regen in modern cars is
quite powerful. Not as powerful as friction braking but if you drive
carefully you can almost avoid using the friction brake. The motor in
mine is 100kW and it can regen up to about 40kW and come down to
walking speed without the friction brake, so you need only to touch the
brake for that last small bit.
nib
nib
Precisely!!
I have recently discovered a small problem. On short journeys the actial brakes are used so little that I am getting corrosion of the discs.
How much of that expense is in ever increasing requirements for
manufacturers to add cameras/radar and associated computers to provide automatic braking, lane departure control, etc.? Plus the (hopefully) temporary blip of the starting up of EV manufacturing.
On 07/12/2024 10:22, Theo wrote:
Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote:
I have recently discovered a small problem. On short journeys the actial >> brakes are used so little that I am getting corrosion of the discs.
I had to replace discs and pads because the caliper siezed through lack of use...
I now try to do an emergency stop once a week or so, just to keep everything
polished.
You would do better to try and trail the brakes at light pressure for a longer time, if the vehicle allows it
I am always sceptical of prognostications of the future that are
based on how things are today. In 2019, the golden rule was "we can't possibly do remote working". It was an accepted fact of modern life.
Come 2020 and all of a sudden *everybody* (that didn't want to go
bust) mysteriously discovered they could offer remote working.
My BiL wanted to line the cellar of his house, so needed to fix battens to the wall. At lunchtime he took hte barnd new B&D drill back to the shop "It doesn't work", so they gave him a new one, He took that one back in the
late sfternoon.
On 07/12/2024 12:30, charles wrote:
My BiL wanted to line the cellar of his house, so needed to fix battens to the wall. At lunchtime he took hte barnd new B&D drill back to the shop "It doesn't work", so they gave him a new one, He took that one back in the late sfternoon.
And yet I had a B& D drill that my father got with cigarette coupons in
about 1958.
My boss borrowed it in 1980 and burned it out sanding floorboards.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 07/12/2024 10:22, Theo wrote:
Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote:You would do better to try and trail the brakes at light pressure for a
I have recently discovered a small problem. On short journeys the actial >>>> brakes are used so little that I am getting corrosion of the discs.
I had to replace discs and pads because the caliper siezed through lack of >>> use...
I now try to do an emergency stop once a week or so, just to keep everything
polished.
longer time, if the vehicle allows it
That's what triggers regen. You need a firmer stop to use the friction brakes.
Theo
On 7 Dec 2024 at 11:45:03 GMT, "charles" <charles@candehope.me.uk>
wrote:
In article <lripfjFm31tU1@mid.individual.net>, Tim Streater
<tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
On 7 Dec 2024 at 11:16:01 GMT, "SteveW" <steve@walker-family.me.uk>
wrote:
On 07/12/2024 10:44, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2024 17:19:13 +0000, Theo wrote:
Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
I am still thinking that when self driving cars finally emerge,
they will highlight the lunacy of leaving a car on a drive 90% of >>>>>>> the time.
People do that to have guaranteed use of the vehicle. If you use
it to drive to work at 8am, that's when everybody else also wants
to use theirs. So you'd find you can't get one when you want one.
Also, if the same vehicle was used 10x more, you'd find it fell
apart 10x quicker. To avoid that you'd have to build it more
robustly - more like a train than a car, with similar costs. It
would also need a similar maintenance regime to make it last as
long as a train - go in for servicing once a week.
(The same is why cheap DIY tools don't last when used
professionally - because they're only specced to be used for a few >>>>>> minutes a year, not 40 hours a week. And they aren't made to be
serviced)
Nothing you say is wrong. For 2024.
However, the history of the average person being able to own their
own means of transport is so short as to hardly warrant a page in
"The History of the World from stone axes". And may well turn out -
like smoking - to be a blip in the line of time.
We are already seeing cars getting more expensive
Perhspa there'll be a big increase in the usage of electric bikes /
scooters - which will require draconian regulation to overcome the
shitty-battery syndrome with accompanying house fires.
I wouldn't want to be riding a bike, electric or otherwise, today.
Agreed, but in Jethro-uk's future, there'll be fewer cars anyway.
On 07/12/2024 10:44, Jethro_uk wrote:
[quoted text muted]
I think humans have always owned their own means of transport. Apart
from a very brief period of industrialisation, from shoes, to ponies and horses, carts and carriages, and motor cars and bicycles mankind has
always owned his own means of transport because its massively
inconvenient to rely on someone else's.
On 7 Dec 2024 at 10:44:08 GMT, "Jethro_uk" <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com>
wrote:
[quoted text muted]
While I agree that this is quite possibly what will happen, getting the masses to accept it will be interesting.
On 07/12/2024 10:22, Theo wrote:
Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote:You would do better to try and trail the brakes at light pressure for a longer time, if the vehicle allows it
I have recently discovered a small problem. On short journeys the actial >>> brakes are used so little that I am getting corrosion of the discs.
I had to replace discs and pads because the caliper siezed through lack of >> use...
I now try to do an emergency stop once a week or so, just to keep everything >> polished.
Theo
On Sat, 07 Dec 2024 11:08:51 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:
On 7 Dec 2024 at 10:44:08 GMT, "Jethro_uk" <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com>
wrote:
[quoted text muted]
While I agree that this is quite possibly what will happen, getting the
masses to accept it will be interesting.
As said elsewhere in this thread: "Old people die."
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 07/12/2024 12:30, charles wrote:
My BiL wanted to line the cellar of his house, so needed to fix battens to >>> the wall. At lunchtime he took hte barnd new B&D drill back to the shop "It >>> doesn't work", so they gave him a new one, He took that one back in the
late sfternoon.
And yet I had a B& D drill that my father got with cigarette coupons in
about 1958.
My boss borrowed it in 1980 and burned it out sanding floorboards.
In 2010 B&D merged to become Stanley Black & Decker, which also includes DeWalt, Irwin, Craftsman and other brands. Black+Decker is now their ultra-budget line - the tools are very cheap and the quality is not there.
I'm not sure when they changed colour scheme, but I'd run a mile from anything in their current orange.
Theo
On 2024-12-07 13:36, Theo wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 07/12/2024 10:22, Theo wrote:
Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote:You would do better to try and trail the brakes at light pressure for a
I have recently discovered a small problem. On short journeys the
actial
brakes are used so little that I am getting corrosion of the discs.
I had to replace discs and pads because the caliper siezed through
lack of
use...
I now try to do an emergency stop once a week or so, just to keep
everything
polished.
longer time, if the vehicle allows it
That's what triggers regen. You need a firmer stop to use the friction
brakes.
Theo
Depends on the car of course. Mine in "1-pedal" mode, regen is engaged progressively by coming off the accelerator. The friction brake is only
on the brake pedal.
I gather some Teslas are quite different.
nib
On 07/12/2024 16:30, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Sat, 07 Dec 2024 11:08:51 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:
On 7 Dec 2024 at 10:44:08 GMT, "Jethro_uk" <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com>
wrote:
[quoted text muted]
While I agree that this is quite possibly what will happen, getting the
masses to accept it will be interesting.
As said elsewhere in this thread: "Old people die."
Do you think that's its only old people that resist change.
It will be the young with aspirations to have their own independence
that will want their own transport.
I have recently discovered a small problem. On short journeys theIs there a ceramic brake kit for the car ? Aftermarket ?
actial brakes are used so little that I am getting corrosion of the
discs.
The reason brakes are made they way they are, is they are considered a
"tidy earner".
A kind of rent seeking behavior.
Remember, that brakes weren't always like that. Tidy earners for
somebody.
But they have devolved to that point today.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 07/12/2024 12:30, charles wrote:
My BiL wanted to line the cellar of his house, so needed to fix
battens to the wall. At lunchtime he took hte barnd new B&D drill
back to the shop "It doesn't work", so they gave him a new one,
He took that one back in the late sfternoon.
And yet I had a B& D drill that my father got with cigarette
coupons in about 1958.
My boss borrowed it in 1980 and burned it out sanding floorboards.
In 2010 B&D merged to become Stanley Black & Decker, which also
includes DeWalt, Irwin, Craftsman and other brands. Black+Decker is
now their ultra-budget line - the tools are very cheap and the
quality is not there.
I'm not sure when they changed colour scheme, but I'd run a mile from anything in their current orange.
On 07/12/2024 17:04, alan_m wrote:
On 07/12/2024 16:30, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Sat, 07 Dec 2024 11:08:51 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:
On 7 Dec 2024 at 10:44:08 GMT, "Jethro_uk" <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com>
wrote:
[quoted text muted]
While I agree that this is quite possibly what will happen, getting the >>> masses to accept it will be interesting.
As said elsewhere in this thread: "Old people die."
Do you think that's its only old people that resist change.
It will be the young with aspirations to have their own independence
that will want their own transport.
Anyone like me who grew up not in a city, and with very infrequent and unreliable public transport will know that having a car was a life
changing experience.
The journey time from our house to my grandmothers house reduced from 8
hours to around 4 hours, with no need for any expensive taxis (3 kids
and all their luggage is not something you want to carry on the Tube, or
even walk 15 minutes to the train station )
But pile it in the boot of the old Morris, and of you go. Sure we only averaged 30mph, but it was still way faster than public transport.
The bus to the local town averaged 8mph...
It took me 15 minutes to walk to the train station, which did the same
trip in 15 minutes, with a ten minute walk the other end. So 40
minutes overall.
I discovered I could cycle it in a little over half an hour, later on.
Public transport that is slower than a teenager on a bicycle is utter
crap.
When I lived in London, it was quicker to walk into Camden town from
Belsize Park than take the tube...
No. I learnt my lesson
Public transport unless your end points are really close to an express
train stop is simply slower than a car.
Flying beats a car mostly, but again airport delays are immense.
Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
I am still thinking that when self driving cars finally emerge, they will
highlight the lunacy of leaving a car on a drive 90% of the time.
People do that to have guaranteed use of the vehicle. If you use it to
drive to work at 8am, that's when everybody else also wants to use theirs.
So you'd find you can't get one when you want one.
Well, that little lot is pretty much made up. But it does get to what I think is one of the main issues - what people /think/ car sharing is all about*.
Often wondered how low range decent (Lidl/Aldi say) stack up against pro-grade
hand and power tools.
On power tools I'm not certain there's a huge difference having just bought some mid-range Makita kit. The few decent hand tools I've got, especially those that cut or have moving parts, are a relative joy to use compared to cheap tat.
In article <vj220p$36k5b$14@dont-email.me>,
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 07/12/2024 17:04, alan_m wrote:
On 07/12/2024 16:30, Jethro_uk wrote:Anyone like me who grew up not in a city, and with very infrequent and
On Sat, 07 Dec 2024 11:08:51 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:
On 7 Dec 2024 at 10:44:08 GMT, "Jethro_uk" <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> >>>>> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
While I agree that this is quite possibly what will happen, getting the >>>>> masses to accept it will be interesting.
As said elsewhere in this thread: "Old people die."
Do you think that's its only old people that resist change.
It will be the young with aspirations to have their own independence
that will want their own transport.
unreliable public transport will know that having a car was a life
changing experience.
The journey time from our house to my grandmothers house reduced from 8
hours to around 4 hours, with no need for any expensive taxis (3 kids
and all their luggage is not something you want to carry on the Tube, or
even walk 15 minutes to the train station )
But pile it in the boot of the old Morris, and of you go. Sure we only
averaged 30mph, but it was still way faster than public transport.
The bus to the local town averaged 8mph...
It took me 15 minutes to walk to the train station, which did the same
trip in 15 minutes, with a ten minute walk the other end. So 40
minutes overall.
I discovered I could cycle it in a little over half an hour, later on.
Public transport that is slower than a teenager on a bicycle is utter
crap.
But more comfortable if it's raining
When I lived in London, it was quicker to walk into Camden town from
Belsize Park than take the tube...
No. I learnt my lesson
Public transport unless your end points are really close to an express
train stop is simply slower than a car.
But you don't need to find a parking space for a car if you go by public transport.
On 2024-12-07 13:36, Theo wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 07/12/2024 10:22, Theo wrote:
Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote:You would do better to try and trail the brakes at light pressure for a
I have recently discovered a small problem. On short journeys the actial >>>> brakes are used so little that I am getting corrosion of the discs.
I had to replace discs and pads because the caliper siezed through lack of
use...
I now try to do an emergency stop once a week or so, just to keep everything
polished.
longer time, if the vehicle allows it
That's what triggers regen. You need a firmer stop to use the friction brakes.
Theo
Depends on the car of course. Mine in "1-pedal" mode, regen is engaged progressively by coming off the accelerator. The friction brake is only
on the brake pedal.
I gather some Teslas are quite different.
On 7 Dec 2024 at 11:45:03 GMT, "charles" <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:This isn't Jethro's "plan", many governments have let
I wouldn't want to be riding a bike, electric or otherwise, today.
Agreed, but in Jethro-uk's future, there'll be fewer cars anyway.
nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote:
On 2024-12-07 13:36, Theo wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 07/12/2024 10:22, Theo wrote:
Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote:You would do better to try and trail the brakes at light pressure for a >>>> longer time, if the vehicle allows it
I have recently discovered a small problem. On short journeys the actial >>>>>> brakes are used so little that I am getting corrosion of the discs. >>>>>I had to replace discs and pads because the caliper siezed through lack of
use...
I now try to do an emergency stop once a week or so, just to keep everything
polished.
That's what triggers regen. You need a firmer stop to use the friction
brakes.
Theo
Depends on the car of course. Mine in "1-pedal" mode, regen is engaged
progressively by coming off the accelerator. The friction brake is only
on the brake pedal.
Do you get regen if you use the brake pedal? Or is that 100% friction?
So if you adjust the one pedal driving to be light deceleration it's less efficient because you're braking more via friction than regen? Or does it
do some regen on the brake pedal whatever the 1PD setting?
I gather some Teslas are quite different.
The 1PD experience seems to vary quite a bit between cars.
Theo
Somehow, they have arbitrarily arrived at 50% as the number,
and they are also doing things to make it happen. Such as making every
rental skyscraper or condo tower, to have *NO* parking lot. They put up
a sign out front, "public transit living",
as if having no wheels at all is an asset :-/
And who wants to visit a city these days anyway? No shops, massive
charges for anything and all the museums and theatres are now paying
homage to woke.
But you don't need to find a parking space for a car if you go by public transport.
On Sat, 07 Dec 2024 20:13:06 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
And who wants to visit a city these days anyway? No shops, massive
charges for anything and all the museums and theatres are now paying
homage to woke.
All true, but I stand with the Romans that city living (or suburban city living :) ) is the epitome of civilisation. Even now, Sunday midday, I
can get an Uber in less than 5 minutes.
On Sat, 07 Dec 2024 19:08:04 +0000, charles wrote:
But you don't need to find a parking space for a car if you go by public
transport.
You can't carry much shopping either.
On 08/12/2024 12:06, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Sat, 07 Dec 2024 20:13:06 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
And who wants to visit a city these days anyway? No shops, massive
charges for anything and all the museums and theatres are now paying
homage to woke.
All true, but I stand with the Romans that city living (or suburban
city living :) ) is the epitome of civilisation. Even now, Sunday
midday, I can get an Uber in less than 5 minutes.
Why would you want an uber?
It's so nice and peaceful here, I don't want to leave!
On 2024-12-08 12:07, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Sat, 07 Dec 2024 19:08:04 +0000, charles wrote:
But you don't need to find a parking space for a car if you go by
public transport.
You can't carry much shopping either.
But the idea of going out and buying a week's worth of groceries, from a
shop in the middle of nowhere with a huge car park, is just another adaptation that has come about from the ubiquity of private cars. It
also discriminates against a minority.
If we used cars less the way we shop would adapt to suit.
On 2024-12-08 12:07, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Sat, 07 Dec 2024 19:08:04 +0000, charles wrote:
But you don't need to find a parking space for a car if you go by public >>> transport.
You can't carry much shopping either.
But the idea of going out and buying a week's worth of groceries, from a
shop in the middle of nowhere with a huge car park, is just another adaptation that has come about from the ubiquity of private cars. It
also discriminates against a minority.
If we used cars less the way we shop would adapt to suit.
nib
Well my own Mum used to do the shopping daily - we had no freezer. There
was a choice of 2 parades of shops within a (brisk) 15 minute walk. One
of which was the location of the local underground and thus a portal to anywhere in London. When I worked in Marble Arch, I could leave the house
at 8am and be at my desk by 9. And that included 2 miles of walking !
On Sat, 07 Dec 2024 20:13:06 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
And who wants to visit a city these days anyway? No shops, massive
charges for anything and all the museums and theatres are now paying
homage to woke.
All true, but I stand with the Romans that city living (or suburban city living :) ) is the epitome of civilisation.
On 08/12/2024 13:40, Jethro_uk wrote:
Well my own Mum used to do the shopping daily - we had no freezer.
There was a choice of 2 parades of shops within a (brisk) 15 minute
walk. One of which was the location of the local underground and thus a
portal to anywhere in London. When I worked in Marble Arch, I could
leave the house at 8am and be at my desk by 9. And that included 2
miles of walking !
I assume your mother didn't have a full time job and all those shops
were open when she had time during the day to shop.
On 2024-12-08 12:07, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Sat, 07 Dec 2024 19:08:04 +0000, charles wrote:
But you don't need to find a parking space for a car if you go by public >>> transport.
You can't carry much shopping either.
But the idea of going out and buying a week's worth of groceries, from a
shop in the middle of nowhere with a huge car park, is just another adaptation that has come about from the ubiquity of private cars. It
also discriminates against a minority.
If we used cars less the way we shop would adapt to suit.
nib
On Sat, 07 Dec 2024 07:52:25 -0500, Paul wrote:
I have recently discovered a small problem. On short journeys theIs there a ceramic brake kit for the car ? Aftermarket ?
actial brakes are used so little that I am getting corrosion of the
discs.
The reason brakes are made they way they are, is they are considered a
"tidy earner".
A kind of rent seeking behavior.
Remember, that brakes weren't always like that. Tidy earners for
somebody.
But they have devolved to that point today.
The point I was making is that tyhe situation arose because the vehicle is
a hybrid.
You have obviously no idea what it is like to live in a village if you
don't have a car.
My mother would cycle into town, some 4.5 miles, with me in a child seat
to go to the cinema (pictures).
She also cycled into town every week to shop come rain, shine, snow or
ice. If she didn't, we didn't have anything to eat.
The route was hilly & she carried the shopping home in 4 carrier bags on
the handlebars & the tins & heavy items in the child seat.
On Sat, 12/7/2024 1:43 PM, Bob Eager wrote:
On Sat, 07 Dec 2024 07:52:25 -0500, Paul wrote:
I have recently discovered a small problem. On short journeys theIs there a ceramic brake kit for the car ? Aftermarket ?
actial brakes are used so little that I am getting corrosion of the
discs.
The reason brakes are made they way they are, is they are considered a
"tidy earner".
A kind of rent seeking behavior.
Remember, that brakes weren't always like that. Tidy earners for
somebody.
But they have devolved to that point today.
The point I was making is that tyhe situation arose because the vehicle is >> a hybrid.
Mine was an ICE, and the brakes were constantly rusting.
Paul
Jethro_uk wrote:
As said elsewhere in this thread: "Old people die."
Along those lines, while at primary school, I thoroughly expected
religion to die-off as churches ran out of old people ...
On 09/12/2024 09:42, Paul wrote:
[quoted text muted]
All discs rust if not used.
As do clutch plates.
Jethro_uk wrote:
As said elsewhere in this thread: "Old people die."
Along those lines, while at primary school, I thoroughly expected
religion to die-off as churches ran out of old people ...
As said elsewhere in this thread: "Old people die."
In article <vj220p$36k5b$14@dont-email.me>,
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Public transport that is slower than a teenager on a bicycle is utter
crap.
But more comfortable if it's raining
On 08/12/2024 13:12, nib wrote:
On 2024-12-08 12:07, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Sat, 07 Dec 2024 19:08:04 +0000, charles wrote:
But you don't need to find a parking space for a car if you go by
public
transport.
You can't carry much shopping either.
But the idea of going out and buying a week's worth of groceries, from
a shop in the middle of nowhere with a huge car park, is just another
adaptation that has come about from the ubiquity of private cars. It
also discriminates against a minority.
If we used cars less the way we shop would adapt to suit.
You have obviously no idea what it is like to live in a village if you
don't have a car.
My mother would cycle into town, some 4.5 miles, with me in a child seat
to go to the cinema (pictures).
She also cycled into town every week to shop come rain, shine, snow or
ice. If she didn't, we didn't have anything to eat.
The route was hilly & she carried the shopping home in 4 carrier bags on
the handlebars & the tins & heavy items in the child seat.
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 10:48:27 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/2024 09:42, Paul wrote:
[quoted text muted]
All discs rust if not used.
As do clutch plates.
Try driving a car with the clutch stuck ...
That's fun.
That's how England was able to go from Catholic to Protestant with no
real resistance from the population. Most of whom probably didn't notice.
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 10:23:07 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:
Jethro_uk wrote:
As said elsewhere in this thread: "Old people die."
Along those lines, while at primary school, I thoroughly expected
religion to die-off as churches ran out of old people ...
Depends how you view it. In England, certainly, "religion" has only every
had a passing relationship to any sky fairies. It's always been much more about the fact that the church (as a building) was simply a sensible
centre to village life. Since the church (as a landowner) was integral to everyones daily lives.
That's how England was able to go from Catholic to Protestant with no
real resistance from the population. Most of whom probably didn't notice.
AFAIAC the C of E is really a rather eccentric social club. And has been
for centuries.
We should be exporting that pragmatic view, rather than importing fanaticism.
On Sat, 12/7/2024 7:08 PM, charles wrote:
In article <vj220p$36k5b$14@dont-email.me>,
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Public transport that is slower than a teenager on a bicycle is utter
crap.
But more comfortable if it's raining
Driving a bicycle takes planning.
You learn these things, as you go.
A reasonably expectation, is you could drive 200-250
days per year, and find a two hour driving window
to pick up some groceries. I have driven 24/365 on
a bicycle for four years in a row, at university.
You are going to get wet doing that.
On 09/12/2024 09:39, wasbit wrote:
You have obviously no idea what it is like to live in a village if you
don't have a car.
My mother would cycle into town, some 4.5 miles, with me in a child
seat to go to the cinema (pictures).
She also cycled into town every week to shop come rain, shine, snow or
ice. If she didn't, we didn't have anything to eat.
The route was hilly & she carried the shopping home in 4 carrier bags
on the handlebars & the tins & heavy items in the child seat.
So she didn't need a car.
On 09/12/2024 11:03, Jethro_uk wrote:
That's how England was able to go from Catholic to Protestant with no
real resistance from the population. Most of whom probably didn't notice.
Fuck me that's ignorant.
The transition away from Catholicism was massive and violent.
Look up the 'dissolution of the monasteries' The king did a Rachel
Reeves and grabbed all the money from the catholic churches, sold the
land off and funded his little wars.
Then we had the civil war, as much protestant versus catholic as it was
king against parliament.
On 09/12/2024 09:39, wasbit wrote:
On 08/12/2024 13:12, nib wrote:
On 2024-12-08 12:07, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Sat, 07 Dec 2024 19:08:04 +0000, charles wrote:
But you don't need to find a parking space for a car if you go by
public
transport.
You can't carry much shopping either.
But the idea of going out and buying a week's worth of groceries, from
a shop in the middle of nowhere with a huge car park, is just another
adaptation that has come about from the ubiquity of private cars. It
also discriminates against a minority.
If we used cars less the way we shop would adapt to suit.
You have obviously no idea what it is like to live in a village if you
don't have a car.
My mother would cycle into town, some 4.5 miles, with me in a child seat
to go to the cinema (pictures).
She also cycled into town every week to shop come rain, shine, snow or
ice. If she didn't, we didn't have anything to eat.
The route was hilly & she carried the shopping home in 4 carrier bags on
the handlebars & the tins & heavy items in the child seat.
So she didn't need a car.
On 9 Dec 2024 at 13:19:40 GMT, "The Natural Philosopher" <tnp@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
On 09/12/2024 11:03, Jethro_uk wrote:
That's how England was able to go from Catholic to Protestant with noFuck me that's ignorant.
real resistance from the population. Most of whom probably didn't notice. >>
The transition away from Catholicism was massive and violent.
Look up the 'dissolution of the monasteries' The king did a Rachel
Reeves and grabbed all the money from the catholic churches, sold the
land off and funded his little wars.
Nonetheless it was a good thing that it happened. Why should we have been paying money to fund a foreign bureaucracy?
Then we had the civil war, as much protestant versus catholic as it was
king against parliament.
That was 100 years later and led to further steps towards our being a modern democratic state (Bill of Rights and so on). It also settled the religious question once and for all.
That's how England was able to go from Catholic to Protestant with no
real resistance from the population. Most of whom probably didn't
notice.
You were still expected to attend, however, and for quite a long time afterwards.
If we have to go backwards it will be with home delivery replacing the supermarket.
On 09/12/2024 11:03, Jethro_uk wrote:
That's how England was able to go from Catholic to Protestant with no
real resistance from the population. Most of whom probably didn't
notice.
Fuck me that's ignorant.
The transition away from Catholicism was massive and violent.
Look up the 'dissolution of the monasteries' The king did a Rachel
Reeves and grabbed all the money from the catholic churches, sold the
land off and funded his little wars.
Then we had the civil war, as much protestant versus catholic as it was
king against parliament.
Try reading some history.
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 13:25:24 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
If we have to go backwards it will be with home delivery replacing the
supermarket.
For a non negligible number of people, that is the reality.
Including us. Currently I am hoping my eye op and sight test will allow
me to carry on driving. But in the interim, it's home delivery for 95%
and a pop to the locals for anything out of stock or that needs
eyeballing (meat, veg).
On 09/12/2024 16:31, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 13:25:24 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
If we have to go backwards it will be with home delivery replacing the
supermarket.
For a non negligible number of people, that is the reality.
Including us. Currently I am hoping my eye op and sight test will allow
me to carry on driving. But in the interim, it's home delivery for 95%
and a pop to the locals for anything out of stock or that needs
eyeballing (meat, veg).
Sadly I am not too far off that as well
ARMD is currently at bay, but cataract ops are looming...
90% of non supermarket stuff I now buy online.
The process of finding reliable suppliers of basic clothing online is no different from pissing round the high streets of old...
But I still need to get to the doctors and the hospitals, bookshops and museums..and visit friends
But I still need to get to the doctors and the hospitals, bookshops and museums..and visit friends
In article <vj76fd$f8rj$8@dont-email.me>,
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 09/12/2024 16:31, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 13:25:24 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
If we have to go backwards it will be with home delivery replacing the >>>> supermarket.
For a non negligible number of people, that is the reality.
Including us. Currently I am hoping my eye op and sight test will allow
me to carry on driving. But in the interim, it's home delivery for 95%
and a pop to the locals for anything out of stock or that needs
eyeballing (meat, veg).
Sadly I am not too far off that as well
ARMD is currently at bay, but cataract ops are looming...
90% of non supermarket stuff I now buy online.
The process of finding reliable suppliers of basic clothing online is no
different from pissing round the high streets of old...
But I still need to get to the doctors and the hospitals, bookshops and
museums..and visit friends
and - you can't get your hair cut on-line
In article <vj76fd$f8rj$8@dont-email.me>,
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 09/12/2024 16:31, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 13:25:24 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
If we have to go backwards it will be with home delivery replacing
the supermarket.
For a non negligible number of people, that is the reality.
Including us. Currently I am hoping my eye op and sight test will
allow me to carry on driving. But in the interim, it's home delivery
for 95% and a pop to the locals for anything out of stock or that
needs eyeballing (meat, veg).
Sadly I am not too far off that as well ARMD is currently at bay, but
cataract ops are looming...
90% of non supermarket stuff I now buy online.
The process of finding reliable suppliers of basic clothing online is
no different from pissing round the high streets of old...
But I still need to get to the doctors and the hospitals, bookshops and
museums..and visit friends
and - you can't get your hair cut on-line
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 16:39:09 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
But I still need to get to the doctors and the hospitals, bookshops and
museums..and visit friends
You have friends ? :)
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 13:20:53 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:
That's how England was able to go from Catholic to Protestant with no
real resistance from the population. Most of whom probably didn't
notice.
You were still expected to attend, however, and for quite a long time
afterwards.
Or pay a token fine. It was hardly thumbscrews at dawn. Unless you were spectacularly indiscreet or (much more likely) in someones way ...
On 09/12/2024 16:31, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 13:25:24 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
If we have to go backwards it will be with home delivery replacing the
supermarket.
For a non negligible number of people, that is the reality.
Including us. Currently I am hoping my eye op and sight test will allow
me to carry on driving. But in the interim, it's home delivery for 95%
and a pop to the locals for anything out of stock or that needs
eyeballing (meat, veg).
Sadly I am not too far off that as well
ARMD is currently at bay, but cataract ops are looming...
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 13:25:24 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
If we have to go backwards it will be with home delivery replacing the
supermarket.
For a non negligible number of people, that is the reality.
On 9 Dec 2024 at 11:32:44 GMT, "Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
On Sat, 12/7/2024 7:08 PM, charles wrote:
In article <vj220p$36k5b$14@dont-email.me>,
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Public transport that is slower than a teenager on a bicycle is utter
crap.
But more comfortable if it's raining
Driving a bicycle takes planning.
You learn these things, as you go.
A reasonably expectation, is you could drive 200-250
days per year, and find a two hour driving window
to pick up some groceries. I have driven 24/365 on
a bicycle for four years in a row, at university.
You are going to get wet doing that.
As a kid on a bike, the concept of getting wet was a minor inconvenience. Rolled up and strapped behind the saddle, one had a plastic poncho thingy, which covered most of the bod and didn't interfere with pedalling. Of course it helped back then that bike-nicking was quite uncommon and all bikes had to be roadworthy (bell, mudguards, lights, etc) - none of this "sports bike" bollocks we see today.
So, if we needed to go somewhere on a bike we went there and generally ignored
the weather.
On 9 Dec 2024 at 16:31:36 GMT, "Jethro_uk" <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 13:25:24 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
If we have to go backwards it will be with home delivery replacing the
supermarket.
For a non negligible number of people, that is the reality.
There's nothing new about home delivery. Grocer's in Three Bridges
delivered to us in his cratey old Bedford Van in the 1950s. Occasionally
I'd be told off to return to his shop with him to pick up one or two more items which has been forgotten in the order. And then walk home, about a mile.
On 9 Dec 2024 at 16:39:09 GMT, "The Natural Philosopher" <tnp@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
On 09/12/2024 16:31, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 13:25:24 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
If we have to go backwards it will be with home delivery replacing the >>>> supermarket.
For a non negligible number of people, that is the reality.
Including us. Currently I am hoping my eye op and sight test will allow
me to carry on driving. But in the interim, it's home delivery for 95%
and a pop to the locals for anything out of stock or that needs
eyeballing (meat, veg).
Sadly I am not too far off that as well
ARMD is currently at bay, but cataract ops are looming...
Once there's any hint of cataracts, no point in delaying having them done. They only get worse.
Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote:
I have recently discovered a small problem. On short journeys the actial
brakes are used so little that I am getting corrosion of the discs.
I had to replace discs and pads because the caliper siezed through lack of use...
I now try to do an emergency stop once a week or so, just to keep everything polished.
Theo
On Fri, 12/6/2024 7:33 PM, Bob Eager wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2024 16:43:47 +0000, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 06/12/2024 16:27, nib wrote:
On 2024-12-06 16:00, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 06/12/2024 15:30, nib wrote:
On 2024-12-06 14:27, Andy Bennett wrote:Gnattpower regen from the motor/gen gives you gnattpower breaking no >>>>> matter which way you cut it.
On 06/12/2024 14:13, nib wrote:
On 2024-12-06 13:58, Andy Bennett wrote:
On 06/12/2024 13:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/12/2024 13:12, Andy Bennett wrote:It would but BEV's tend to have a fixed reduction gearbox
On 06/12/2024 10:39, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 12/4/2024 2:13 PM, Joe wrote:No car regenerates down to 0mph. Simple physics. The motor in >>>>>>>>>>> regen mode simply does not have the flux reversal rate at low >>>>>>>>>>> rpm to generate any meaningful power/braking effect so friction >>>>>>>>>>> brakes are blended in to take over down to zero. Even T brand >>>>>>>>>>> cars cannot break the laws of physics.
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 16:04:03 +0000 The Natural Philosopher >>>>>>>>>>>>> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:It's unfortunate that there isn't a table listing the minimum >>>>>>>>>>>> regeneration speed.
On 04/12/2024 15:14, Bob Eager wrote:Yes, but that's quite a big advantage for city and motorway >>>>>>>>>>>>> driving and for very hilly areas.
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 11:10:00 +0000, Theo wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:But that ultimately is simply recovering energy the fuel >>>>>>>>>>>>>> engine has put in... Simply avoids wasting all the braking >>>>>>>>>>>>>> energy as heat.
Someone I know was crowing on about their full hybrid car >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and how there was no (fuel) cost in running it when below >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (I can't remember the exact figure) 40mph because the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electric motor cut in.
Not helped by Toyota advertising their non-plugin models as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'self-charging hybrids that you don't need to plug in'. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, err,
where is the energy coming from to 'charge' it? Oh, you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean it's just a petrol car with a slightly more efficient >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transmission?
A lot of the charging is regenerative. Not all, of course, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but quite a bit.
Clive Sinclair understood that, and the C5 had regenerative >>>>>>>>>>>>> braking.
At least one car, the motors don't need excitation, to be >>>>>>>>>>>> turned into generators. That particular car, regenerates all >>>>>>>>>>>> the way down to 0 MPH (on a flat surface).
But other cars, they need like 5kW for excitation, and when the >>>>>>>>>>>> regeneration energy becomes 4.9kW, the car computer switches >>>>>>>>>>>> the regen off (removes the excitation) and switches to the >>>>>>>>>>>> friction brake. Such cars don't have the same "mileage >>>>>>>>>>>> efficiency", and you can see this sometimes in reviewer >>>>>>>>>>>> descriptions of the usage of the car, and what is recorded on >>>>>>>>>>>> the dash for consumption.
While the "round trip" has a quoted efficiency, the minimum >>>>>>>>>>>> regen speed also has quite an impact on how useful the regen >>>>>>>>>>>> is. At lower speeds, there isn't a lot of energy being returned >>>>>>>>>>>> to the battery, so if everything below 10MPH was not used, >>>>>>>>>>>> that's not a big deal. But cars that stop regen at 30MPH, >>>>>>>>>>>> that's not so good.
EBikes hardly ever have regen. It simplifies the design. >>>>>>>>>>>>
If you brake via regen suddenly enough, the output power is >>>>>>>>>>>> three times the normal acceleration power. This can be hard on >>>>>>>>>>>> the charge/discharge electronics.
In some cases, they can't actually absorb all the returned >>>>>>>>>>>> energy. If you reduce speed a bit slower, the regen is a better >>>>>>>>>>>> match for the charging capability. If you reduce speed too >>>>>>>>>>>> slowly, it may not counterbalance the excitation power >>>>>>>>>>>> required.
On a diesel electric locomotive (North American version), the >>>>>>>>>>>> regen when braking on a hill is fed into a resistive grid, >>>>>>>>>>>> which has a large fan for cooling. But now that a "battery car" >>>>>>>>>>>> is being added to some, the regen when it happens, can be fed >>>>>>>>>>>> to the battery car. The battery car is used for haulage in the >>>>>>>>>>>> final miles into a city, to cut down on diesel pollution within >>>>>>>>>>>> city limits.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/
f0e42bccb2ba69adb33eff2924d4ce1b0e7ecb8c/0_173_7952_4774/ >>>>>>>>>>>> master/7952.jpg?width=1140&dpr=2&s=none&crop=none
While that one looks like a yard engine, there is also a >>>>>>>>>>>> version with engine-battery-engine, for larger loads.
Paul
A CVT would help by spinning the motor faster and faster as the >>>>>>>>>> speed decreased. And leaving it spinning when the car came to a >>>>>>>>>> halt ready to transfer the energy mack into motion.
typically 8 or 9:1. It would be an over complication v. known >>>>>>>>> technology simple friction brakes.
And don't forget that modern electric cars have loads of power >>>>>>>> electronics that can make a boost converter so as the car slows it >>>>>>>> can still generate enough volts to get charge back into the
battery, unlike old DC stuff which had to fiddle with
series/parallel configuration and varying the field current.
nib
Braking via regen requires POWER to flow from the motor/gen to the >>>>>>> battery. Increasing the VOLTAGE does not increase the POWER, it
merely reduces the CURRENT and thereby conserves physical laws.
No. The problem with regen with simple DC motors for example is that >>>>>> as the speed reduces there is not enough voltage to drive ANY current >>>>>> back into the battery, even though there is still energy to be
recovered.
The boost converter allows the voltage to be increased to achieve
enough voltage to actually push current into the battery, at a lower >>>>>> current of course to result in the same power being recovered. No
laws are being broken.
Think about a simple permanent magnet DC motor. To run at speed N
from a supply voltage V its back emf at N must be less than V. So it >>>>>> cannot be used directly for regen into the supply voltage because
while slowing down, speed less than N, its generated voltage cannot >>>>>> exceed V.
nib
Btw motors used in EV's tend to be multiphase synchronous motors.
Indeed they are. Or asynchronous in some cases.
I don't quite get what you are talking about. Regen in modern cars is
quite powerful. Not as powerful as friction braking but if you drive
carefully you can almost avoid using the friction brake. The motor in
mine is 100kW and it can regen up to about 40kW and come down to
walking speed without the friction brake, so you need only to touch the >>>> brake for that last small bit.
nib
nib
Precisely!!
I have recently discovered a small problem. On short journeys the actial
brakes are used so little that I am getting corrosion of the discs.
Is there a ceramic brake kit for the car ? Aftermarket ?
The reason brakes are made they way they are, is they are considered a "tidy earner".
A kind of rent seeking behavior.
Remember, that brakes weren't always like that. Tidy earners for somebody. But they have devolved to that point today. "Oh, I can only turn these down one time, before I have to replace them." "Well, sir, you should have
been bringing the car in every five months, for our brake shampoo service."
A tidy earner. Of course, you have to lube the sliders. Repeatedly.
And with vigor.
The pisser is, when you get an idiot doing your brake service, and
they manage to damage the transmission. Good help is hard to find.
I think most people in their seventies have a "hint" of cataracts, if
the ophthalmologist or optometrist is good enough. I don't see the point
in having operations until they are really troublesome, for example when dazzled by bright lights. You may never need the operation.
It still has the original disks because it was made in
the era when pads had asbestos in them and were the wearable item.
Now pads are harder and disks are softer, so the latter also need
changing after every Nth change of pads.
On 09/12/2024 22:49, Tim Streater wrote:
On 9 Dec 2024 at 16:39:09 GMT, "The Natural Philosopher"
<tnp@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
On 09/12/2024 16:31, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 13:25:24 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
If we have to go backwards it will be with home delivery replacing the >>>>> supermarket.
For a non negligible number of people, that is the reality.
Including us. Currently I am hoping my eye op and sight test will allow >>>> me to carry on driving. But in the interim, it's home delivery for 95% >>>> and a pop to the locals for anything out of stock or that needs
eyeballing (meat, veg).
Sadly I am not too far off that as well
ARMD is currently at bay, but cataract ops are looming...
Once there's any hint of cataracts, no point in delaying having them
done.
They only get worse.
I think most people in their seventies have a "hint" of cataracts, if
the ophthalmologist or optometrist is good enough. I don't see the point
in having operations until they are really troublesome, for example when dazzled by bright lights. You may never need the operation.
On 09/12/2024 11:03, Jethro_uk wrote:
That's how England was able to go from Catholic to Protestant with no
real resistance from the population. Most of whom probably didn't notice.
Fuck me that's ignorant.
The transition away from Catholicism was massive and violent.
Look up the 'dissolution of the monasteries' The king did a Rachel
Reeves and grabbed all the money from the catholic churches, sold the
land off and funded his little wars.
Then we had the civil war, as much protestant versus catholic as it was
king against parliament.
Try reading some history.
Andrew wrote:
It still has the original disks because it was made in
the era when pads had asbestos in them and were the wearable item.
Now pads are harder and disks are softer, so the latter also need
changing after every Nth change of pads.
"N" can be 1, or if you're lucky 2 ...
On 09/12/2024 10:57, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 10:48:27 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/2024 09:42, Paul wrote:Try driving a car with the clutch stuck ...
[quoted text muted]
All discs rust if not used.
As do clutch plates.
That's fun.
Ive dine that - had to start a van in first gear because the clutch
was stuck, got it up to speed and stamped hard on the brakes and the
clutch. That fixed it.
I learnt to double de clutch in my youth so a clutch that has a broken >hydraulic line is no big deal for me.
I got that one to a service station and bough shitloads of clutch fluid
and that got it into first gear...
In message <vj6qpc$ctrb$16@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes
On 09/12/2024 11:03, Jethro_uk wrote:AIUI, it was specifically 'the dissolution of the monasteries'. They represented the upper end of the Catholic hierarchy, and owned lots of
That's how England was able to go from Catholic to Protestant with no
real resistance from the population. Most of whom probably didn't
notice.
Fuck me that's ignorant.
The transition away from Catholicism was massive and violent.
Look up the 'dissolution of the monasteries' The king did a Rachel
Reeves and grabbed all the money from the catholic churches, sold the
land off and funded his little wars.
Then we had the civil war, as much protestant versus catholic as it was >>king against parliament.
Try reading some history.
land. The ordinary churches were essentially untouched, and carried on
as usual. The incumbent priests simply modified their allegiance as
required by the new order. Google "Vicar of Bray".
On 09/12/2024 22:49, Tim Streater wrote:
On 9 Dec 2024 at 16:39:09 GMT, "The Natural Philosopher" <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 09/12/2024 16:31, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 13:25:24 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
If we have to go backwards it will be with home delivery replacing
the supermarket.
For a non negligible number of people, that is the reality.
Including us. Currently I am hoping my eye op and sight test will
allow me to carry on driving. But in the interim, it's home delivery
for 95% and a pop to the locals for anything out of stock or that
needs eyeballing (meat, veg).
Sadly I am not too far off that as well ARMD is currently at bay, but
cataract ops are looming...
Once there's any hint of cataracts, no point in delaying having them
done. They only get worse.
I think most people in their seventies have a "hint" of cataracts, if
the ophthalmologist or optometrist is good enough. I don't see the point
in having operations until they are really troublesome, for example when dazzled by bright lights. You may never need the operation.
My clock radio came on very early this morning and there was a short
article about woman and technology.
Paraphrasing: "I recently spoke to a professor at a university who has
just patented a new indoor solar panel. This means we no longer have to rely on solar panels on the roof but we can get useful power indoors
from our LED bulbs"
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