For the last six months or so - it might have been longer - when the
hot water comes out of the tap really hot, it contains a cloud of microbubbles which remain visible in the sink for some time and after
I have added washing-up liquid (always Fairy Liquid Original so unless they've changed their formula that ought to be a constant factor) microbubbles of detergent cling to the glassware and it takes several
rinses in clear water to dislodge them. The detergent microbubbles
cling to sides of the sink too and resist being emptied down the
plughole.
First World Problems, eh? Yes I know. It doesn't really bother me
apart from the way that I'm having to use more water to get things
really clean and that's not a good thing for anybody. I'm more
interested in knowing why it has started happening. Have water
companies (mine is Yorkshire) changed the formula or concentration of
the chemicals they use to process drinking water? Could it be
something else?
First World Problems, eh? Yes I know. It doesn't really bother me
apart from the way that I'm having to use more water to get things
really clean and that's not a good thing for anybody. I'm more
interested in knowing why it has started happening. Have water
companies (mine is Yorkshire) changed the formula or concentration of
the chemicals they use to process drinking water? Could it be
something else?
I can't see how it could possibly be, but I'm willing and eager to be educated otherwise.
I'm in a softwater region - no limescale issues. I like the taste of
my water although a regular visitor with a better palate than mine
thinks it has changed over the years. I have a Baxi condensing combi
which is set to a temperature within the condensing range for the
central heating and it comes out rather hotter than that from the
taps.
For the last six months or so - it might have been longer - when the
hot water comes out of the tap really hot, it contains a cloud of microbubbles which remain visible in the sink for some time and after
I have added washing-up liquid (always Fairy Liquid Original so unless they've changed their formula that ought to be a constant factor) microbubbles of detergent cling to the glassware and it takes several
rinses in clear water to dislodge them. The detergent microbubbles
cling to sides of the sink too and resist being emptied down the
plughole.
First World Problems, eh? Yes I know. It doesn't really bother me
apart from the way that I'm having to use more water to get things
really clean and that's not a good thing for anybody. I'm more
interested in knowing why it has started happening. Have water
companies (mine is Yorkshire) changed the formula or concentration of
the chemicals they use to process drinking water? Could it be
something else?
Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca> wrote:
First World Problems, eh? Yes I know. It doesn't really bother me
apart from the way that I'm having to use more water to get things
really clean and that's not a good thing for anybody. I'm more
interested in knowing why it has started happening. Have water
companies (mine is Yorkshire) changed the formula or concentration of
the chemicals they use to process drinking water? Could it be
something else?
Do you get microbubbles on the cold side too, or just the hot side?
What about at bathroom taps?
Do you have a 'dual flow' tap, where the hot and cold water travel up different parts of the spout (usually concentric pipes) so they only mix in the air, rather than in the body of the tap? I think dual flow used to be a requirement for kitchen mixer taps but I understand that's no longer the case. Have you changed the tap recently?
Theo
On 01/02/2025 12:02, Nick Odell wrote:
I can't see how it could possibly be, but I'm willing and eager to be
educated otherwise.
I'm in a softwater region - no limescale issues. I like the taste of
my water although a regular visitor with a better palate than mine
thinks it has changed over the years. I have a Baxi condensing combi
which is set to a temperature within the condensing range for the
central heating and it comes out rather hotter than that from the
taps.
For the last six months or so - it might have been longer - when the
hot water comes out of the tap really hot, it contains a cloud of
microbubbles which remain visible in the sink for some time and after
I have added washing-up liquid (always Fairy Liquid Original so unless
they've changed their formula that ought to be a constant factor)
microbubbles of detergent cling to the glassware and it takes several
rinses in clear water to dislodge them. The detergent microbubbles
cling to sides of the sink too and resist being emptied down the
plughole.
First World Problems, eh? Yes I know. It doesn't really bother me
apart from the way that I'm having to use more water to get things
really clean and that's not a good thing for anybody. I'm more
interested in knowing why it has started happening. Have water
companies (mine is Yorkshire) changed the formula or concentration of
the chemicals they use to process drinking water? Could it be
something else?
I have known water supply to switch from bore hole to river and visa
versa according to supply availability and treatment costs.
Perhaps it's worth asking the supplier the question about source or
changes in water treatment?
Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca> wrote:
First World Problems, eh? Yes I know. It doesn't really bother me
apart from the way that I'm having to use more water to get things
really clean and that's not a good thing for anybody. I'm more
interested in knowing why it has started happening. Have water
companies (mine is Yorkshire) changed the formula or concentration of
the chemicals they use to process drinking water? Could it be
something else?
Do you get microbubbles on the cold side too, or just the hot side?
What about at bathroom taps?
Do you have a 'dual flow' tap, where the hot and cold water travel up >different parts of the spout (usually concentric pipes) so they only mix in >the air, rather than in the body of the tap? I think dual flow used to be a >requirement for kitchen mixer taps but I understand that's no longer the >case. Have you changed the tap recently?
On Sat, 01 Feb 2025 16:43:36 +0000, Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
On 01 Feb 2025 12:52:11 +0000 (GMT), Theo
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca> wrote:Only in the hot water. It occurs through all the taps but I concentrated
First World Problems, eh? Yes I know. It doesn't really bother me
apart from the way that I'm having to use more water to get things
really clean and that's not a good thing for anybody. I'm more
interested in knowing why it has started happening. Have water
companies (mine is Yorkshire) changed the formula or concentration of
the chemicals they use to process drinking water? Could it be
something else?
Do you get microbubbles on the cold side too, or just the hot side?
What about at bathroom taps?
on the kitchen because all sorts of shampoos and soaps with different
recipes get used in the bath and shower rooms[1] but I consistently use
just one washing-up liquid there which can be considered a sort-of
control.
Do you have a 'dual flow' tap, where the hot and cold water travel up >>>different parts of the spout (usually concentric pipes) so they only mix >>>in the air, rather than in the body of the tap? I think dual flow used >>>to be a requirement for kitchen mixer taps but I understand that's no >>>longer the case. Have you changed the tap recently?Yes, it's a dual flow tap in the kitchen but separate hot and cold taps
in the washbasins and bath.
Nick [1]I think you've prompted me to eliminate the combi from my
enquiries: I can't see microbubbles in the shower water but I guess they
are there because I get the same, stubborn refusal of the used, water to
go down the shower waste. It's an electric shower so I guess the
microbubbles are a function of heating up the mains water and are
independent of the means of heating. So the question must be, what's
happening to the mains water?
Um stupid question, as I don't have a combi, but any chance of a leak from >the heating to the hot water and it is a function of the corrosion
inhibitor leaking across???
As I say I have no (real) idea how a combi differs from a 'boiler' so I
might be talking bolloux
On 01 Feb 2025 12:52:11 +0000 (GMT), Theo
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca> wrote:Only in the hot water. It occurs through all the taps but I concentrated
First World Problems, eh? Yes I know. It doesn't really bother me
apart from the way that I'm having to use more water to get things
really clean and that's not a good thing for anybody. I'm more
interested in knowing why it has started happening. Have water
companies (mine is Yorkshire) changed the formula or concentration of
the chemicals they use to process drinking water? Could it be
something else?
Do you get microbubbles on the cold side too, or just the hot side?
What about at bathroom taps?
on the kitchen because all sorts of shampoos and soaps with different
recipes get used in the bath and shower rooms[1] but I consistently use
just one washing-up liquid there which can be considered a sort-of
control.
Do you have a 'dual flow' tap, where the hot and cold water travel up >>different parts of the spout (usually concentric pipes) so they only mixYes, it's a dual flow tap in the kitchen but separate hot and cold taps
in the air, rather than in the body of the tap? I think dual flow used
to be a requirement for kitchen mixer taps but I understand that's no >>longer the case. Have you changed the tap recently?
in the washbasins and bath.
Nick [1]I think you've prompted me to eliminate the combi from my
enquiries: I can't see microbubbles in the shower water but I guess they
are there because I get the same, stubborn refusal of the used, water to
go down the shower waste. It's an electric shower so I guess the
microbubbles are a function of heating up the mains water and are
independent of the means of heating. So the question must be, what's happening to the mains water?
Fredxx wrote:That's odd, I'd have thought they were required to?
Perhaps it's worth asking the supplier the question about source or
changes in water treatment?
I think I might have to try that. I did ask someone who does water
analysis if they knew if anything had changed but they say they are
not taking any drinking water samples .
[1]I think you've prompted me to eliminate the combi from my
enquiries: I can't see microbubbles in the shower water but I guess
they are there because I get the same, stubborn refusal of the used,
water to go down the shower waste. It's an electric shower so I guess
the microbubbles are a function of heating up the mains water and are independent of the means of heating. So the question must be, what's happening to the mains water?
On Sat, 01 Feb 2025 16:43:36 +0000, Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
On 01 Feb 2025 12:52:11 +0000 (GMT), Theo
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca> wrote:Only in the hot water. It occurs through all the taps but I concentrated
First World Problems, eh? Yes I know. It doesn't really bother me
apart from the way that I'm having to use more water to get things
really clean and that's not a good thing for anybody. I'm more
interested in knowing why it has started happening. Have water
companies (mine is Yorkshire) changed the formula or concentration of
the chemicals they use to process drinking water? Could it be
something else?
Do you get microbubbles on the cold side too, or just the hot side?
What about at bathroom taps?
on the kitchen because all sorts of shampoos and soaps with different
recipes get used in the bath and shower rooms[1] but I consistently use
just one washing-up liquid there which can be considered a sort-of
control.
Do you have a 'dual flow' tap, where the hot and cold water travel upYes, it's a dual flow tap in the kitchen but separate hot and cold taps
different parts of the spout (usually concentric pipes) so they only mix >>> in the air, rather than in the body of the tap? I think dual flow used
to be a requirement for kitchen mixer taps but I understand that's no
longer the case. Have you changed the tap recently?
in the washbasins and bath.
Nick [1]I think you've prompted me to eliminate the combi from my
enquiries: I can't see microbubbles in the shower water but I guess they
are there because I get the same, stubborn refusal of the used, water to
go down the shower waste. It's an electric shower so I guess the
microbubbles are a function of heating up the mains water and are
independent of the means of heating. So the question must be, what's
happening to the mains water?
Um stupid question, as I don't have a combi, but any chance of a leak from the heating to the hot water and it is a function of the corrosion
inhibitor leaking across???
As I say I have no (real) idea how a combi differs from a 'boiler' so I
might be talking bolloux
Um stupid question, as I don't have a combi, but any chance of a leak from the heating to the hot water and it is a function of the corrosion
inhibitor leaking across???
As I say I have no (real) idea how a combi differs from a 'boiler' so I
might be talking bolloux
but I
consistently use just one washing-up liquid there which can be
considered a sort-of control.
I can't see how it could possibly be, but I'm willing and eager to be educated otherwise.late filing of tax returns or parking offences, universal vehicle tracking and severe penalties for everything, then we would have an orderly society, then people would have to stay at home and watch Ant and Dec instead of causing trouble outside, that
I'm in a softwater region - no limescale issues. I like the taste of
my water although a regular visitor with a better palate than mine
thinks it has changed over the years. I have a Baxi condensing combi
which is set to a temperature within the condensing range for the
central heating and it comes out rather hotter than that from theTony Leslie Francis And cameras everywhere using facial recognition and government access to your bank transactions, and everybody's DNA on a police database showing any past record of
taps.
For the last six months or so - it might have been longer - when the
hot water comes out of the tap really hot, it contains a cloud of microbubbles which remain visible in the sink for some time and after
I have added washing-up liquid (always Fairy Liquid Original so unless they've changed their formula that ought to be a constant factor) microbubbles of detergent cling to the glassware and it takes several
rinses in clear water to dislodge them. The detergent microbubbles
cling to sides of the sink too and resist being emptied down the
plughole.
First World Problems, eh? Yes I know. It doesn't really bother me
apart from the way that I'm having to use more water to get things
really clean and that's not a good thing for anybody. I'm more
interested in knowing why it has started happening. Have water
companies (mine is Yorkshire) changed the formula or concentration of
the chemicals they use to process drinking water? Could it be
something else?
Any ideas?
Nick
Nick Odell wrote:
Fredxx wrote:That's odd, I'd have thought they were required to?
Perhaps it's worth asking the supplier the question about source or
changes in water treatment?
I think I might have to try that. I did ask someone who does water
analysis if they knew if anything had changed but they say they are
not taking any drinking water samples .
While descaling my coffee machine the other day, I looked at what my
supplier Severn Trent has to say about hardness, and found they publish >monthly/quarterly/annual data for *many* chemicals and other properties
(pH, odour, colour, turbidity etc) for my supply zone
chuck a Leicester postcode into this ...
<https://www.stwater.co.uk/my-supply/water-quality/check-my-water-quality/>
They do say they might temporarily change the source of supply for >operational reasons.
Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca> wrote:
[1]I think you've prompted me to eliminate the combi from my
enquiries: I can't see microbubbles in the shower water but I guess
they are there because I get the same, stubborn refusal of the used,
water to go down the shower waste. It's an electric shower so I guess
the microbubbles are a function of heating up the mains water and are
independent of the means of heating. So the question must be, what's
happening to the mains water?
Dissolved gases coming out of solution when heated?
You could try it with a pan on the stove. Fill with cold water, gradually >heat it up. Does it foam at some point before it reaches boiling point?
Maybe try the same experiment with bottled water, or water that's been >pre-boiled in the kettle and then cooled, to see if there's a difference?
Bonus points if you measure the temperature it foams at with a thermometer.
Andy Burns wrote:
That's odd, I'd have thought they were required to?
Sorry, I wasn't very clear. Yes, the water companies have a legal
requirement but this chap works for an environmental monitoring
company
On 01 Feb 2025 22:24:58 +0000 (GMT), Theo
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca> wrote:Please sir! Sir! Sir! May I have those bonus points, sir?
[1]I think you've prompted me to eliminate the combi from my
enquiries: I can't see microbubbles in the shower water but I guess
they are there because I get the same, stubborn refusal of the used,
water to go down the shower waste. It's an electric shower so I guess
the microbubbles are a function of heating up the mains water and are
independent of the means of heating. So the question must be, what's
happening to the mains water?
Dissolved gases coming out of solution when heated?
You could try it with a pan on the stove. Fill with cold water, gradually >> heat it up. Does it foam at some point before it reaches boiling point?
Maybe try the same experiment with bottled water, or water that's been
pre-boiled in the kettle and then cooled, to see if there's a difference?
Bonus points if you measure the temperature it foams at with a thermometer. >>
So today I have been mostly boiling water and measuring the
temperatures at which certain events take place. I knew my temperature measuring probe had to be good for something[1]
I can show my workings if anybody is interested but I'm pretty sure
the gas is carbon dioxide but I'm still not sure why it behaves the
way that it does. I think it's CO2 because when I wave a flame over
the bubbles the flame goes out but the flame stays alight over water
without the bubbles.
I used three samples:[2]
A- Drawn off from the tap and boiled right away
B- Previously boiled and left in an open container to reach room temp
C- Drawn off from the tap and left in an open container as B
A and B started to foam up at around 70deg though B was weaker in its reaction. Both cleared as the temperature went through 90deg.
What I found interesting was the reaction of C. It had been drawn off
at the same time as the water which had been boiled out for sample B
and both samples had been left in open containers for several hours to
reach room temperature. I presume that B had absorbed more carbon
dioxide from the atmosphere while it had been sitting there: that's
why it foamed up again but less forcefully than when it was fresh
I presume C must have absorbed even more CO2 while it was sitting
there because it started foaming just after 50deg and looked much more
like a scum on the surface than the other two examples. But it wasn't
a real scum, just a concentration of agitated microbubbles which
disappeared when the temperature passed 90 and left no traces behind.
As suggested elsewhere in this thread, I think delving into the
Yorkshire Water website is the next thing to do.
Nick
[1]Other than measuring distillate fractions in a sti$%%$^&%^"... (no carrier)
[2]I used others but that was more about finding out how long it would
take to come to the boil
Nothing to do with your combi, just deregulation of the water industry
and slackening of environmental regulations. It's a Brexit Benefit.
TW
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