aprilsweetheartrose wrote:

BUT  which wire goes into which  hole?  How do I tell?

How easy is it to check behind the cooker, to see if it's red/black or blue/brown wires in the outlet there?

Obviously make certain the cooker circuit, or the whole of your fuse box
is turned off first.

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aprilsweetheartrose wrote:

Not very, but I could try.  Its all right down at the back on the floor basically and I am not sure the colours are showing.

Presumably as well as L and N markings, there are also "load" and
"supply" markings?

As long as you DON'T put a red or a brown into a neutral hole,
and don't put a blue or black into a live hole, nothing will go bang or anything.

But if you get them wrong, you'll have the odd situation where the
fridge will be off if either of the switches is off.

I'd leave it until it's daylight again ...

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aprilsweetheartrose <aprilsweetheartrose@gmail.com> wrote:

Now, inside there are :

a) two live wires - one is brown and the other red.

b) three earth wires but two are connected together.

c) two neutral wires - one is black and the other blue.

The socket has two neutral holes, two earth holes and two live holes.

BUT which wire goes into which hole? How do I tell?

Likely black and red are the wall (input) side, blue and brown are the
cooker (output) side, as the wall wiring was probably installed pre-2005
(old colours) and the cooker point post-2005 (new colours).

The switch probably has markings for which is in and which is out. On a
normal switch it wouldn't matter, but if you get input and output mixed up
the neon will light even when the switch is off.

Any earth wire will go in any earth hole - the bundle in one, the single in
the other.

If I get them wrong what happens?

If you manage to short black and red or blue and brown then something may go bang and (hopefully) trip the circuit breaker. As long as you keep live to live and neutral to neutral then you should be ok. I think worst case is
you get some strange neon behaviour.

Make sure the screws are done up tight, and give a sharp tug on each wire to check they're not going to come out. A common source of house fires is electrical terminals which aren't properly tightened and so overheat. (The proper way to do this is with a torque screwdriver and tighten the screws to
a rated torque in Nm, if the switch manufacturer have specified one)

I desperately need some help here.

Good luck!

Theo

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On 06/02/2025 16:50, aprilsweetheartrose wrote:

oK, I need help.  My pig headed husband has me in a mess. The old cooker/plug socket  broke ( the socket switch was  on and wouldnt switch off).   He said get a new one. I got an MK  with neon lights - exact
same as one on the wall.

He took the thing apart when I was not there and now cannot remember
what wire went where.

I have looked all over the internet and cant work it out. I have had no cooker for a week and the freezer that was plugged into the socket is
running on an extension lead.  I asked him  to let me get an electrician but he wont.  Pig headed s o b.

Rant over.....

Now, inside there are :

a) two  live wires - one is brown and the other red.

b) three earth wires but two are connected together.

c) two neutral wires - one is black and the other  blue.

You will likely have two cables - one is the feed from the CU, and the
other will be the cable to the cooker itself. Each cable will have an
earth, and there may be a flying earth wire that goes to the back box of
the socket.

The socket has  two neutral holes, two earth holes and two live holes.

One pair of L & N will be the Supply side, and the other the load side
(the connection from supply to socket will be internal to the unit and
won't need another cable)

Look carefully at the back of the new socket and it will be marked which terminals are which. (lower ones are likely to be the load side)

BUT  which wire goes into which  hole?  How do I tell?

At a guess - assuming the house wiring predates the use of Brown/Blue
for fixed wiring, the read black cable will be the supply. The
Brown/Blue is probably the age of the cooker itself - so more recent.

With the circuit off at the CU, you can use a multimeter to measure the resistance between the Earth and Neutral wires. On the wire to the
cooker (i.e. the "load") there should be an open circuit. On the supply
side there would usually be a low resistance since the neutral and earth
will be linked somewhere (either at your house or at the sub station
depending on the type of earthing system your property has)

If I get them wrong what happens?

Nothing serious - it will work, and the switch will turn the cooker on
and off. However, with the cooker "off" the socket may not work either.
Also, the neon indicators would be probably stay lit all the time. (they
will be connected to the load side of the switch - normally only powered
with the switch on)



--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \=================================================================/

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On 06/02/2025 18:23, aprilsweetheartrose wrote:

I cannot see anything that says load and supply. The socket  box has
four holes on top of a square shaped ( pre wired) black  box thing - two
on the top marked  earth and neutral  and two at the bottom marked earth and neutral.  The E earth wires are both on the side next at the back of what is the  plug socket  ( on the front) Both are to the top of the
unit.

Too late now but a mobile phone photo of what you are going to take
apart helps a lot when replacing things like this.

Is this a single switch or is a a cooker switch with a 13A mains socket
in the same assembly.

If it's a MK socket it will have come with an instruction leaflet. That
leaflet will probably have a picture of the back of the socket showing
"supply" and "load".

"Supply" may be named "Mains"
"Load" may be named "Cooker"

The back of many MK sockets is shown in https://www.mylights.co.uk/images/pdf/Cooker%20units.pdf

Supply and load will also be moulded into the plastic on the back of the socket. It may be difficult to read unless under a strong light -
perhaps held to the side to see the raised lettering.

Can you supply a photo of the back-box with the wires and a photo of the replacement socket?

Red and black are the old colours
Red = live
Black = neutral

Brown and Blue are the new colours (introduced in the 1990s ?)
Brown = live
Blue = neutral

One set will come from your consumer unit (fuse box)
The other set will go to your cooker

The problem you have is identifying which is which :(

Each of those sets of wires will have an earth wire (usually sleeved
with a green or green and yellow sleeve) The third earth wire is
probably just connected to a connection on the metal back-box. All three
should be connected any of the terminals marked E on the back of the
socket. All three don't have to go to the same "E" terminal if the
socket has more than one marked this way.
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

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On 06/02/2025 18:23, aprilsweetheartrose wrote:

I cannot see anything that says load and supply. The socket  box has
four holes on top of a square shaped ( pre wired) black  box thing - two
on the top marked  earth and neutral  and two at the bottom marked earth and neutral.  The E earth wires are both on the side next at the back of what is the  plug socket  ( on the front) Both are to the top of the
unit.

There should be 5 or 6 connections: 2 Live (one in, one out), 2 Neutral
(one in, one out) and one or two Earth.

It sounds like your Brown/Blue wire is the supply, dropping down to the
switch and the Red/Black wire is feeding power from the switch to the
cooker.

Live in should be marked L, L1, Lin or something like that and take the
Brown wire. If it is only marked L, there will also be Supply, Mains or Incoming marked somewhere.

Neutral in should be marked N, N1, Nin or something like that and take
the Blue wire. If it is only marked N, there will also be Supply, Mains
or Incoming marked somewhere.

Live out (to the cooker) should be marked L, L2, Lout or something like
that and take the Red wire. If it is only marked L, there will also be
Cooker, Load or Outgoing marked somewhere.

Neutral out should be marked N, N2, Nout or something like that and take
the Black wire. If it is only marked N, there will also be Cooker, Load
or Outgoing marked somewhere.

The green and yellow wires all go to the Earth connections (which are
already connected together if there are more than one.

At the worst, if you get the incoming and outgoing cables swapped over,
the Neon will stay lit and the socket will lose power when the cooker
switch is off, so just swap them over. DO NOT get the Brown and Blue
swapped over or the Red and Black.

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On 06/02/2025 18:20, aprilsweetheartrose wrote:

Thank you for the replies.  I cannot see the cooker wires because
apparently they were joined in a junction box somewhere behind a kitchen cupboard.

But what I can see :

There are two  conduits coming out of the wall  - one coming down  the wall into the top of the metal casing and the other going down the wall
to  where ever from the bottom of the casing

On the going down side is the black wire, the red wire and one of the
green and yellow wires that is joined to the other green and yellow wire
  The green and yellow wire  it is joined to is coming down through a tube/conduit(?) from the ceiling   The other green and yellow wire,
seems to be going nowhere except into the edge of the metal case .... presumably its fitted in the back (  The casing is fixed in the wall.
Its only the socket front I am  changing.

The blue wire and the brown wires are coming down in the conduit from
the ceiling.

If its any use - the consumer box and electricity boxes are all on the
wall below the ceiling . The wiring to the house comes in on overhead
wires ( old fashioned I know)  into the roof

Hope that makes some sense.

The brown (live) and blue (neutral) are the probably the supply (or mains)

The red (live) and black (neutral) are probably your cooker (or load)

The back of the socket will be marked with
L supply (or L mains) = Brown wire
N supply (or N mains) = Blue wire

L load (or L cooker) = Red wire
N load (or N cooker) = Black wire

All three earth wires should be connected to Earth terminal on the
switch. You are correct that the 3rd earth wire is just connected to a
metal back-box (for safety).

As posted elsewhere in this thread see the diagrams of the back of
various MK cooker switches in

https://www.mylights.co.uk/images/pdf/Cooker%20units.pdf



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

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On 06/02/2025 17:51, Theo wrote:

Likely black and red are the wall (input) side, blue and brown are the
cooker (output) side, as the wall wiring was probably installed pre-2005
(old colours) and the cooker point post-2005 (new colours).

I think the new colors go back further than that. i installed new colors
in 2001 and had been doing so for some years

It was all EU harmonisations. It finally became absolutely mandatory in
2005, but it had been around for years before that
--
Renewable energy: Expensive solutions that don't work to a problem that
doesn't exist instituted by self legalising protection rackets that
don't protect, masquerading as public servants who don't serve the public.

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On 07/02/2025 09:24, aprilsweetheartrose wrote:

Now , whether I have it right or not is another question.   I had to
fight to get the wires into the terminals.  I had to fight to push it
all back to the casing and put the screws in .

That's normal as the wire to your cooker is thicker than used for the
ring main to your other household sockets. The wire is a lot harder to
bend etc. to get it back into the back-box in the free space available.



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

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On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 01:03:26 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 06/02/2025 17:51, Theo wrote:

Likely black and red are the wall (input) side, blue and brown are
the cooker (output) side, as the wall wiring was probably installed pre-2005 (old colours) and the cooker point post-2005 (new colours).

I think the new colors go back further than that. i installed new
colors in 2001 and had been doing so for some years

It was all EU harmonisations. It finally became absolutely mandatory
in 2005, but it had been around for years before that

I bought a reel of 2.5 T&E in 1970 and asked why it was still red and
black when domestic flexes had changed colours. I think the change was
quite recent then. I believe any portable wiring since 1976 must be in
the new colours.

So it's very likely that the cooker wiring was brown/blue and the house
wiring red/black.

--
Joe

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On 07/02/2025 01:03, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 06/02/2025 17:51, Theo wrote:

Likely black and red are the wall (input) side, blue and brown are the
cooker (output) side, as the wall wiring was probably installed pre-2005
(old colours) and the cooker point post-2005 (new colours).

I think the new colors go back further than that. i installed new colors
in 2001 and had been doing so for some years

It was all EU harmonisations. It finally became absolutely mandatory in
2005, but it had been around for years before that

Well in Spain white and black still in use. I don't usually support
conspiracy theories but I thought it was for Part-P so any new wiring
was obvious...

Dave

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On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 11:51:50 +0000
David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:

On 07/02/2025 01:03, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 06/02/2025 17:51, Theo wrote:

Likely black and red are the wall (input) side, blue and brown are
the cooker (output) side, as the wall wiring was probably
installed pre-2005 (old colours) and the cooker point post-2005
(new colours).

I think the new colors go back further than that. i installed new
colors in 2001 and had been doing so for some years

It was all EU harmonisations. It finally became absolutely
mandatory in 2005, but it had been around for years before that

Well in Spain white and black still in use. I don't usually support conspiracy theories but I thought it was for Part-P so any new wiring
was obvious...

That was probably convenient, though I'm sure I'm not the only one to
have a few bits of red and black left...

The portable wiring colours changed in the late Sixties, for some
reason it took fixed wiring about forty years to catch up. The European
Cenelec is associated with the change, which took place before Britain
joined the EU.

--
Joe

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On 07/02/2025 11:51, David Wade wrote:

On 07/02/2025 01:03, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 06/02/2025 17:51, Theo wrote:

Likely black and red are the wall (input) side, blue and brown are the
cooker (output) side, as the wall wiring was probably installed pre-2005 >>> (old colours) and the cooker point post-2005 (new colours).

I think the new colors go back further than that. i installed new
colors in 2001 and had been doing so for some years

It was all EU harmonisations. It finally became absolutely mandatory
in 2005, but it had been around for years before that

Well in Spain white and black still in use. I don't usually support conspiracy theories but I thought it was for Part-P so any new wiring
was obvious...

You could use new colours before part p, and old colour after it (the
crossover period straddled the introduction).

So as conspiracy theories go, it is debunked before it even starts!

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \=================================================================/

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On 07/02/2025 11:51, David Wade wrote:

On 07/02/2025 01:03, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 06/02/2025 17:51, Theo wrote:

Likely black and red are the wall (input) side, blue and brown are the
cooker (output) side, as the wall wiring was probably installed pre-2005 >>> (old colours) and the cooker point post-2005 (new colours).

I think the new colors go back further than that. i installed new
colors in 2001 and had been doing so for some years

It was all EU harmonisations. It finally became absolutely mandatory
in 2005, but it had been around for years before that

Well in Spain white and black still in use. I don't usually support conspiracy theories but I thought it was for Part-P so any new wiring
was obvious...

Although the colour change came in shortly before (March 2004) Part-P
(Jan 2005), so isn't an immediate identifier of when work was done.

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On 06/02/2025 04:50 PM, aprilsweetheartrose wrote:

oK, I need help. My pig headed husband has me in a mess. The old
cooker/plug socket broke ( the socket switch was on and wouldnt switch off). He said get a new one. I got an MK with neon lights - exact
same as one on the wall.

He took the thing apart when I was not there and now cannot remember
what wire went where.

I have looked all over the internet and cant work it out. I have had no cooker for a week and the freezer that was plugged into the socket is
running on an extension lead. I asked him to let me get an electrician
but he wont. Pig headed s o b.

Rant over.....

Now, inside there are :

a) two live wires - one is brown and the other red.

b) three earth wires but two are connected together.

c) two neutral wires - one is black and the other blue.

The socket has two neutral holes, two earth holes and two live holes.

BUT which wire goes into which hole? How do I tell?

If I get them wrong what happens?

I desperately need some help here.

Thanks in advance.

You (or your husband) need to get someone qualified to look at it, on
the spot. That's as helpful as I care to be in such circumstances.

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On 09/02/2025 15:29, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 16:50:00 +0000, aprilsweetheartrose@gmail.com (aprilsweetheartrose) wrote:

oK, I need help. My pig headed husband has me in a mess. The old
cooker/plug socket broke ( the socket switch was on and wouldnt switch
off). He said get a new one. I got an MK with neon lights - exact
same as one on the wall.

He took the thing apart when I was not there and now cannot remember
what wire went where.

I have looked all over the internet and cant work it out. I have had no
cooker for a week and the freezer that was plugged into the socket is
running on an extension lead. I asked him to let me get an electrician
but he wont. Pig headed s o b.

Rant over.....

Now, inside there are :

a) two live wires - one is brown and the other red.

b) three earth wires but two are connected together.

c) two neutral wires - one is black and the other blue.

The socket has two neutral holes, two earth holes and two live holes.

BUT which wire goes into which hole? How do I tell?

If I get them wrong what happens?

I desperately need some help here.

Thanks in advance.

Under no circumstances should you go fiddling about in a socket of
that sort if you don't know what you're doing!!

Give him cold soups and uncooked meals until he is prepared to get an electrician in, and/or take the Lysistrata approach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysistrata

:-)

I concur, assuming its switched off at the breaker in the fuse box you
can't tell with certainty which goes where just from the colours. If its
not switched off at the breaker then its dangerous. You need an electrician.

Dave

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On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 16:50:00 +0000, aprilsweetheartrose@gmail.com (aprilsweetheartrose) wrote:

oK, I need help. My pig headed husband has me in a mess. The old
cooker/plug socket broke ( the socket switch was on and wouldnt switch >off). He said get a new one. I got an MK with neon lights - exact
same as one on the wall.

He took the thing apart when I was not there and now cannot remember
what wire went where.

I have looked all over the internet and cant work it out. I have had no >cooker for a week and the freezer that was plugged into the socket is
running on an extension lead. I asked him to let me get an electrician
but he wont. Pig headed s o b.

Rant over.....

Now, inside there are :

a) two live wires - one is brown and the other red.

b) three earth wires but two are connected together.

c) two neutral wires - one is black and the other blue.

The socket has two neutral holes, two earth holes and two live holes.

BUT which wire goes into which hole? How do I tell?

If I get them wrong what happens?

I desperately need some help here.

Thanks in advance.

Under no circumstances should you go fiddling about in a socket of
that sort if you don't know what you're doing!!

Give him cold soups and uncooked meals until he is prepared to get an electrician in, and/or take the Lysistrata approach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysistrata

:-)

--

Chris

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On 09/02/2025 16:11, David Wade wrote:

On 09/02/2025 15:29, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 16:50:00 +0000, aprilsweetheartrose@gmail.com
(aprilsweetheartrose) wrote:

oK, I need help.  My pig headed husband has me in a mess. The old
cooker/plug socket  broke ( the socket switch was  on and wouldnt switch >>> off).   He said get a new one. I got an MK  with neon lights - exact
same as one on the wall.

He took the thing apart when I was not there and now cannot remember
what wire went where.

I have looked all over the internet and cant work it out. I have had no
cooker for a week and the freezer that was plugged into the socket is
running on an extension lead.  I asked him  to let me get an electrician >>> but he wont.  Pig headed s o b.

Rant over.....

Now, inside there are :

a) two  live wires - one is brown and the other red.

b) three earth wires but two are connected together.

c) two neutral wires - one is black and the other  blue.

The socket has  two neutral holes, two earth holes and two live holes.

BUT  which wire goes into which  hole?  How do I tell?

If I get them wrong what happens?

I desperately need some help here.

Thanks in advance.

Under no circumstances should you go fiddling about in a socket of
that sort if you don't know what you're doing!!

Give him cold soups and uncooked meals until he is prepared to get an
electrician in, and/or take the Lysistrata approach
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysistrata

:-)

I concur, assuming its switched off at the breaker in the fuse box you
can't tell with certainty which goes where just from the colours. If its
not switched off at the breaker then its dangerous. You need an
electrician.

Really? Why is everyone so keen to be helpless? These are basic jobs,
and it is useful to learn how to do them, and you learn by doing.

From the description of the behaviour after fixing it, there is not
much that could be wrong at this point. The neons work as expected - so
the load and supply side connection are the right way round (and in
reality would not effect safety of reversed).

It is double pole switched, so a reversal of L & N would have no
particular effect.

So all that remains is that the terminals were not torqued up well
enough to prevent overheating. The diverse load of a cooker is typically
not that high, so again not likely to be a problem unless the wires were
left slopping about in the terminals.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \=================================================================/

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