https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/bayer-says-legal-woes-could-103823742.html
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market if it is not
able to contain simmering legal troubles.
"We're nearing a point where the litigation industry could force us to
even stop selling this vital product," CEO Bill Anderson said at Bayer's annual general meeting.
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market
GB wrote:
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market
Better value exists from generic glyphosate
<https://green-care.co.uk/product/gallup-hi-aktiv-490g-glyphosate-5ltr>
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate?
On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 18:33:38 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:
GB wrote:
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it could >>> be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market
Better value exists from generic glyphosate
<https://green-care.co.uk/product/gallup-hi-aktiv-490g-glyphosate-5ltr>
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate? Sodium
chlorate degrades to sodium chloride (salt), which is relatively
harmless. It is also more effective. I assume it is better for the environment but worse for humans but we substituted propane and butane
(which are highly flammable) for CFCs in aerosols in the interests of
the environment.
On 25/04/2025 19:55, Scott wrote:
On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 18:33:38 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:
GB wrote:
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it could >>>> be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market
Better value exists from generic glyphosate
<https://green-care.co.uk/product/gallup-hi-aktiv-490g-glyphosate-5ltr>
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate? Sodium
chlorate degrades to sodium chloride (salt), which is relatively
harmless. It is also more effective. I assume it is better for the
environment but worse for humans but we substituted propane and butane
(which are highly flammable) for CFCs in aerosols in the interests of
the environment.
It was banned by the EU in 2009. I had assumed it was because it was >possible, with a bit of effort, to remove the fire-depressant and
therefore it became a possible source of an explosive. However, it seems
to be that it was banned because it could be toxic, and no safe level
was established. Its supply after being banned is taken as a serious >infringement of the law: ><https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/crime/company-director-jailed-for-sale-of-banned-weedkiller>
On 25/04/2025 19:55, Scott wrote:I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Scott wrote:
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate?
Dunno, Dad told the tale of how he obtained some from "a friend" who
worked on the railway, and used it on an aunt's garden ... supposedly
nothing grew there for years.
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 08:58:08 +0100, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
On 25/04/2025 19:55, Scott wrote:
On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 18:33:38 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:
GB wrote:Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate? Sodium
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it could >>>>> be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market
Better value exists from generic glyphosate
<https://green-care.co.uk/product/gallup-hi-aktiv-490g-glyphosate-5ltr> >>>
chlorate degrades to sodium chloride (salt), which is relatively
harmless. It is also more effective. I assume it is better for the
environment but worse for humans but we substituted propane and butane
(which are highly flammable) for CFCs in aerosols in the interests of
the environment.
It was banned by the EU in 2009. I had assumed it was because it was
possible, with a bit of effort, to remove the fire-depressant and
therefore it became a possible source of an explosive. However, it seems
to be that it was banned because it could be toxic, and no safe level
was established. Its supply after being banned is taken as a serious
infringement of the law:
<https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/crime/company-director-jailed-for-sale-of-banned-weedkiller>
Yes, but of course glyphosate is considered by some to be toxic and
harmful to the environment. My question was: on the scale of balance,
which is the more toxic? I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 09:33:08 +0100
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On 25/04/2025 19:55, Scott wrote:I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Yet...
"They're just plants that aren't in the place you want them to be.
They've got just as much right to live as your dahlias."
There are minor victories, but I don't think we've hit peak insanity
yet.
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 09:33:08 +0100
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On 25/04/2025 19:55, Scott wrote:I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Yet...
"They're just plants that aren't in the place you want them to be.
They've got just as much right to live as your dahlias."
On 26/04/2025 09:33, Scott wrote:
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 08:58:08 +0100, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
On 25/04/2025 19:55, Scott wrote:
On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 18:33:38 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:
GB wrote:Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate? Sodium
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it >>>>>> could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market
Better value exists from generic glyphosate
<https://green-care.co.uk/product/gallup-hi-aktiv-490g-glyphosate-5ltr> >>>>
chlorate degrades to sodium chloride (salt), which is relatively
harmless. It is also more effective. I assume it is better for the
environment but worse for humans but we substituted propane and butane >>>> (which are highly flammable) for CFCs in aerosols in the interests of
the environment.
It was banned by the EU in 2009. I had assumed it was because it was
possible, with a bit of effort, to remove the fire-depressant and
therefore it became a possible source of an explosive. However, it seems >>> to be that it was banned because it could be toxic, and no safe level
was established. Its supply after being banned is taken as a serious
infringement of the law:
<https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/crime/company-director-jailed-for-sale-of-banned-weedkiller>
Yes, but of course glyphosate is considered by some to be toxic and
harmful to the environment. My question was: on the scale of balance,
which is the more toxic? I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Oh, but there /is/ a suggestion that it should be illegal to kill weeds
- at least in public areas. For example, <https://www.endsreport.com/article/1872380/mps-sign-motion-calling-national-phase-out-pesticides-public-areas>.
As to which is the more toxic, did you mean to humans or any animal (including insects) in the environment? My guess, and it is a guess, is
that sodium chlorate would be generally more toxic.
Sodium chlorate oral LD50 in rats is 1200mg/kg
Glyphosate oral LD50 in rats is >5000mg/kg
On 26 Apr 2025 at 10:19:29 BST, "Joe" <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 09:33:08 +0100
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On 25/04/2025 19:55, Scott wrote:I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Yet...
"They're just plants that aren't in the place you want them to be.
They've got just as much right to live as your dahlias."
Actually, no. Not when it's Japanese knotweed. Never having heard of the plant
before, I caused one to be rotovated in a bed. I then read about it (this was 30 years ago), went "Oops!", dug up the root ball and burnt it, and spent 7 years spraying roundup on the shoots that appeared each spring. It took that look to eradicate.
On 26/04/2025 10:34, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 26/04/2025 09:33, Scott wrote:
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 08:58:08 +0100, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
On 25/04/2025 19:55, Scott wrote:
On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 18:33:38 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> >>>>> wrote:
GB wrote:Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate? Sodium
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it >>>>>>> could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market
Better value exists from generic glyphosate
<https://green-care.co.uk/product/gallup-hi-aktiv-490g-glyphosate-5ltr> >>>>>
chlorate degrades to sodium chloride (salt), which is relatively
harmless. It is also more effective. I assume it is better for the
environment but worse for humans but we substituted propane and butane >>>>> (which are highly flammable) for CFCs in aerosols in the interests of >>>>> the environment.
It was banned by the EU in 2009. I had assumed it was because it was
possible, with a bit of effort, to remove the fire-depressant and
therefore it became a possible source of an explosive. However, it seems >>>> to be that it was banned because it could be toxic, and no safe level
was established. Its supply after being banned is taken as a serious
infringement of the law:
<https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/crime/company-director-jailed-for-sale-of-banned-weedkiller>
Yes, but of course glyphosate is considered by some to be toxic and
harmful to the environment. My question was: on the scale of balance,
which is the more toxic? I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Oh, but there /is/ a suggestion that it should be illegal to kill weeds
- at least in public areas. For example,
<https://www.endsreport.com/article/1872380/mps-sign-motion-calling-national-phase-out-pesticides-public-areas>.
As to which is the more toxic, did you mean to humans or any animal
(including insects) in the environment? My guess, and it is a guess, is
that sodium chlorate would be generally more toxic.
Sodium chlorate oral LD50 in rats is 1200mg/kg
Glyphosate oral LD50 in rats is >5000mg/kg
Guess what this is.
"Serious toxicity occurs when [redacted] is ingested in large amounts (5 mL/kg in children, 150–200 mL in adults) or at concentrations more than
6% . Redness, oedema, and ulceration may occur in the oral cavity, nasopharynx, and oesophagus, and in severe cases gastric perforation may occur. Complications may include coughing, shortness of breath,
aspiration pneumonia, and upper airway oedema. In severe cases,
pulmonary oedema may occur, and tachycardia, hypotension, and
convulsions have also been reported. Systemically, metabolic acidosis, hypernatremia, and hyperchloremia appear."
Hint: It isn't banned. It's available in every supermarket.
On 26/04/2025 11:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Guess what this is.
"Serious toxicity occurs when [redacted] is ingested in large amounts (5
mL/kg in children, 150–200 mL in adults) or at concentrations more than
6% . Redness, oedema, and ulceration may occur in the oral cavity,
nasopharynx, and oesophagus, and in severe cases gastric perforation may
occur. Complications may include coughing, shortness of breath,
aspiration pneumonia, and upper airway oedema. In severe cases,
pulmonary oedema may occur, and tachycardia, hypotension, and
convulsions have also been reported. Systemically, metabolic acidosis,
hypernatremia, and hyperchloremia appear."
Hint: It isn't banned. It's available in every supermarket.
The hypernatremia and hyperchloremia suggest sodium and chloride, but
with the dosage in mL it suggests a liquid - perhaps bleach.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 26/04/2025 10:34, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 26/04/2025 09:33, Scott wrote:
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 08:58:08 +0100, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> >>>> wrote:
On 25/04/2025 19:55, Scott wrote:
On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 18:33:38 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> >>>>>> wrote:
GB wrote:Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate? Sodium >>>>>> chlorate degrades to sodium chloride (salt), which is relatively
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it >>>>>>>> could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market
Better value exists from generic glyphosate
<https://green-care.co.uk/product/gallup-hi-aktiv-490g-glyphosate-5ltr> >>>>>>
harmless. It is also more effective. I assume it is better for the >>>>>> environment but worse for humans but we substituted propane and butane >>>>>> (which are highly flammable) for CFCs in aerosols in the interests of >>>>>> the environment.
It was banned by the EU in 2009. I had assumed it was because it was >>>>> possible, with a bit of effort, to remove the fire-depressant and
therefore it became a possible source of an explosive. However, it seems >>>>> to be that it was banned because it could be toxic, and no safe level >>>>> was established. Its supply after being banned is taken as a serious >>>>> infringement of the law:
<https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/crime/company-director-jailed-for-sale-of-banned-weedkiller>
Yes, but of course glyphosate is considered by some to be toxic and
harmful to the environment. My question was: on the scale of balance,
which is the more toxic? I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Oh, but there /is/ a suggestion that it should be illegal to kill weeds
- at least in public areas. For example,
<https://www.endsreport.com/article/1872380/mps-sign-motion-calling-national-phase-out-pesticides-public-areas>.
As to which is the more toxic, did you mean to humans or any animal
(including insects) in the environment? My guess, and it is a guess, is
that sodium chlorate would be generally more toxic.
Sodium chlorate oral LD50 in rats is 1200mg/kg
Glyphosate oral LD50 in rats is >5000mg/kg
Guess what this is.
"Serious toxicity occurs when [redacted] is ingested in large amounts (5
mL/kg in children, 150–200 mL in adults) or at concentrations more than
6% . Redness, oedema, and ulceration may occur in the oral cavity,
nasopharynx, and oesophagus, and in severe cases gastric perforation may
occur. Complications may include coughing, shortness of breath,
aspiration pneumonia, and upper airway oedema. In severe cases,
pulmonary oedema may occur, and tachycardia, hypotension, and
convulsions have also been reported. Systemically, metabolic acidosis,
hypernatremia, and hyperchloremia appear."
Hint: It isn't banned. It's available in every supermarket.
Aspirin
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I have one each day (Disprin) to counter *sticky blood*. Has to be takenGuess what this is.
"Serious toxicity occurs when [redacted] is ingested in large amounts (5
mL/kg in children, 150–200 mL in adults) or at concentrations more than
6% . Redness, oedema, and ulceration may occur in the oral cavity,
nasopharynx, and oesophagus, and in severe cases gastric perforation may
occur. Complications may include coughing, shortness of breath,
aspiration pneumonia, and upper airway oedema. In severe cases,
pulmonary oedema may occur, and tachycardia, hypotension, and
convulsions have also been reported. Systemically, metabolic acidosis,
hypernatremia, and hyperchloremia appear."
Hint: It isn't banned. It's available in every supermarket.
Aspirin
On 26/04/2025 13:14, Tricky Dicky wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 26/04/2025 10:34, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 26/04/2025 09:33, Scott wrote:
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 08:58:08 +0100, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> >>>>> wrote:
On 25/04/2025 19:55, Scott wrote:
On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 18:33:38 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> >>>>>>> wrote:
GB wrote:
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it >>>>>>>>> could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market
Better value exists from generic glyphosate
<https://green-care.co.uk/product/gallup-hi-aktiv-490g-glyphosate-5ltr>
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate? Sodium >>>>>>> chlorate degrades to sodium chloride (salt), which is relatively >>>>>>> harmless. It is also more effective. I assume it is better for the >>>>>>> environment but worse for humans but we substituted propane and butane >>>>>>> (which are highly flammable) for CFCs in aerosols in the interests of >>>>>>> the environment.
It was banned by the EU in 2009. I had assumed it was because it was >>>>>> possible, with a bit of effort, to remove the fire-depressant and
therefore it became a possible source of an explosive. However, it seems >>>>>> to be that it was banned because it could be toxic, and no safe level >>>>>> was established. Its supply after being banned is taken as a serious >>>>>> infringement of the law:
<https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/crime/company-director-jailed-for-sale-of-banned-weedkiller>
Yes, but of course glyphosate is considered by some to be toxic and
harmful to the environment. My question was: on the scale of balance, >>>>> which is the more toxic? I don't think anyone is suggesting it should >>>>> be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Oh, but there /is/ a suggestion that it should be illegal to kill weeds >>>> - at least in public areas. For example,
<https://www.endsreport.com/article/1872380/mps-sign-motion-calling-national-phase-out-pesticides-public-areas>.
As to which is the more toxic, did you mean to humans or any animal
(including insects) in the environment? My guess, and it is a guess, is >>>> that sodium chlorate would be generally more toxic.
Sodium chlorate oral LD50 in rats is 1200mg/kg
Glyphosate oral LD50 in rats is >5000mg/kg
Guess what this is.
"Serious toxicity occurs when [redacted] is ingested in large amounts (5 >>> mL/kg in children, 150–200 mL in adults) or at concentrations more than >>> 6% . Redness, oedema, and ulceration may occur in the oral cavity,
nasopharynx, and oesophagus, and in severe cases gastric perforation may >>> occur. Complications may include coughing, shortness of breath,
aspiration pneumonia, and upper airway oedema. In severe cases,
pulmonary oedema may occur, and tachycardia, hypotension, and
convulsions have also been reported. Systemically, metabolic acidosis,
hypernatremia, and hyperchloremia appear."
Hint: It isn't banned. It's available in every supermarket.
Aspirin
Nope.
Guess what this is.
"Serious toxicity occurs when [redacted] is ingested in large amounts (5 mL/kg in children, 150–200 mL in adults) or at concentrations more than
6% . Redness, oedema, and ulceration may occur in the oral cavity, nasopharynx, and oesophagus, and in severe cases gastric perforation may occur. Complications may include coughing, shortness of breath,
aspiration pneumonia, and upper airway oedema. In severe cases,
pulmonary oedema may occur, and tachycardia, hypotension, and
convulsions have also been reported. Systemically, metabolic acidosis, hypernatremia, and hyperchloremia appear."
Hint: It isn't banned. It's available in every supermarket.
On 26/04/2025 13:14, Tricky Dicky wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Snip
I have one each day (Disprin) to counter *sticky blood*. Has to be takenGuess what this is.
"Serious toxicity occurs when [redacted] is ingested in large amounts (5 >>> mL/kg in children, 150–200 mL in adults) or at concentrations more than >>> 6% . Redness, oedema, and ulceration may occur in the oral cavity,
nasopharynx, and oesophagus, and in severe cases gastric perforation may >>> occur. Complications may include coughing, shortness of breath,
aspiration pneumonia, and upper airway oedema. In severe cases,
pulmonary oedema may occur, and tachycardia, hypotension, and
convulsions have also been reported. Systemically, metabolic acidosis,
hypernatremia, and hyperchloremia appear."
Hint: It isn't banned. It's available in every supermarket.
Aspirin
with Omeprazole to protect the stomach.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/bayer-says-legal-woes-could-103823742.html
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market if it is not
able to contain simmering legal troubles.
"We're nearing a point where the litigation industry could force us to
even stop selling this vital product," CEO Bill Anderson said at Bayer's annual general meeting.
On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 18:22:30 +0100, GB wrote:
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/bayer-says-legal-woes-could-103823742.html >>
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market if it is not
able to contain simmering legal troubles.
"We're nearing a point where the litigation industry could force us to
even stop selling this vital product," CEO Bill Anderson said at Bayer's
annual general meeting.
I still have about 4½ li - should be enough for a while.
Scott wrote:
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate?
Dunno, Dad told the tale of how he obtained some from "a friend" who
worked on the railway, and used it on an aunt's garden ... supposedly
nothing grew there for years.
On 26/04/2025 18:21, PeterC wrote:
On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 18:22:30 +0100, GB wrote:
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/bayer-says-legal-woes-could-103823742.html
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it could >>> be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market if it is not
able to contain simmering legal troubles.
"We're nearing a point where the litigation industry could force us to
even stop selling this vital product," CEO Bill Anderson said at Bayer's >>> annual general meeting.
I still have about 4½ li - should be enough for a while.
Monsanto still make the stuff.
I don't want to provoke the farm chemical store police so I won't brag:-)
On 25/04/2025 20:07, Andy Burns wrote:I always understood in the grand old days of British Rail that it was
Scott wrote:
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate?
Dunno, Dad told the tale of how he obtained some from "a friend" who
worked on the railway, and used it on an aunt's garden ... supposedly
nothing grew there for years.
Are you sure it wasn't 'agent orange' ?. I believe BR was able to
use something related to it on ballast and lineside foliage for
years.
On 26/04/2025 18:53, Andrew wrote:
On 25/04/2025 20:07, Andy Burns wrote:I always understood in the grand old days of British Rail that it was
Scott wrote:
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate?
Dunno, Dad told the tale of how he obtained some from "a friend" who
worked on the railway, and used it on an aunt's garden ... supposedly
nothing grew there for years.
Are you sure it wasn't 'agent orange' ?. I believe BR was able to
use something related to it on ballast and lineside foliage for
years.
sodium chlorate
It was banned by the EU in 2009. I had assumed it was because it was >possible, with a bit of effort, to remove the fire-depressant and
therefore it became a possible source of an explosive. However, it seems
to be that it was banned because it could be toxic, and no safe level
was established. Its supply after being banned is taken as a serious >infringement of the law: ><https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/crime/company-director-jailed-for-sale-of-banned-weedkiller>
Oh, but there /is/ a suggestion that it should be illegal to kill weeds
- at least in public areas. For example, <https://www.endsreport.com/article/1872380/mps-sign-motion-calling-national-phase-out-pesticides-public-areas>.
Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Oh, but there /is/ a suggestion that it should be illegal to kill weeds
- at least in public areas. For example,
<https://www.endsreport.com/article/1872380/mps-sign-motion-calling-national-phase-out-pesticides-public-areas>.
ITYM it should be illegal to use chemical weedkillers. Killing weeds is still allowed :-)
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 09:33:08 +0100
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On 25/04/2025 19:55, Scott wrote:I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Yet...
"They're just plants that aren't in the place you want them to be.
They've got just as much right to live as your dahlias."
There are minor victories, but I don't think we've hit peak insanity
yet.
On 27 Apr 2025 at 10:39:59 BST, "Theo" <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Oh, but there /is/ a suggestion that it should be illegal to kill weeds
- at least in public areas. For example,
<https://www.endsreport.com/article/1872380/mps-sign-motion-calling-national-phase-out-pesticides-public-areas>.
ITYM it should be illegal to use chemical weedkillers. Killing weeds is still allowed :-)
I would have thought that all weedkillers are chemical.
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 08:58:08 +0100, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
It was banned by the EU in 2009. I had assumed it was because it was
possible, with a bit of effort, to remove the fire-depressant and
therefore it became a possible source of an explosive. However, it seems
to be that it was banned because it could be toxic, and no safe level
was established. Its supply after being banned is taken as a serious
infringement of the law:
<https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/crime/company-director-jailed-for-sale-of-banned-weedkiller>
It was banned as a weedkiller, i.e. as something that kills plants in lawns, plots, grass...
It is still available (at least as I search for it now, from within the EU: Amazon, ebay, online ag supply shops, ...) as a cleaner for patios, and stone slabs, with plenty of warnings as to what runoff will do to flowers beds and lawns nearby. ISTR the stuff easily available is about 30% active ingredient, possibly too little to make it pop, but still enough to set your pants on fire.
The other 70% are salt and crud, I think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploding_trousers
Thomas Prufer
On 26/04/2025 19:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/04/2025 18:53, Andrew wrote:
On 25/04/2025 20:07, Andy Burns wrote:I always understood in the grand old days of British Rail that it was
Scott wrote:
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate?
Dunno, Dad told the tale of how he obtained some from "a friend" who
worked on the railway, and used it on an aunt's garden ...
supposedly nothing grew there for years.
Are you sure it wasn't 'agent orange' ?. I believe BR was able to
use something related to it on ballast and lineside foliage for
years.
sodium chlorate
Not for brambles ...
https://www.ch.ic.ac.uk/rzepa/mim/environmental/html/245t.htm
In message <20250426101929.23a10a5b@jrenewsid.jretrading.com>, at
10:19:29 on Sat, 26 Apr 2025, Joe <joe@jretrading.com> remarked:
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 09:33:08 +0100
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On 25/04/2025 19:55, Scott wrote:I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Yet...
"They're just plants that aren't in the place you want them to be.
They've got just as much right to live as your dahlias."
There are minor victories, but I don't think we've hit peak insanity
yet.
Hemlock reported today growing wild at a bus stop just up the road from me.
Unless we want to get philosophical and say that the arm holding the spadeNot philosophical, just accurate
is powered by chemical action...
Tim Streater <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
On 27 Apr 2025 at 10:39:59 BST, "Theo" <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> >> wrote:
Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Oh, but there /is/ a suggestion that it should be illegal to kill weeds >> >> - at least in public areas. For example,
<https://www.endsreport.com/article/1872380/mps-sign-motion-calling-national-phase-out-pesticides-public-areas>.
ITYM it should be illegal to use chemical weedkillers. Killing weeds is >> > still allowed :-)
I would have thought that all weedkillers are chemical.
'Weedkillers' != 'killing weeds'. Digging them up, hoeing them or mulching >doesn't need chemicals. I suppose it's arguable whether a BFO flamethrower
is a chemical method :-)
Unless we want to get philosophical and say that the arm holding the spade
is powered by chemical action...
Theo
On 26/04/2025 19:40, Andrew wrote:
On 26/04/2025 19:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/04/2025 18:53, Andrew wrote:Not for brambles ...
On 25/04/2025 20:07, Andy Burns wrote:I always understood in the grand old days of British Rail that it
Scott wrote:
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate?
Dunno, Dad told the tale of how he obtained some from "a friend"
who worked on the railway, and used it on an aunt's garden ... >>>>>supposedly nothing grew there for years.
Are you sure it wasn't 'agent orange' ?. I believe BR was able to
use something related to it on ballast and lineside foliage for
years.
was sodium chlorate
https://www.ch.ic.ac.uk/rzepa/mim/environmental/html/245t.htm
Yes, for brambles
Very much for brambles.
Sodium chlorate kills EVERYTHING.
Look it up. And it persists a long time in the soil, too.
In message <vulkeu$13k6s$3@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes
On 26/04/2025 19:40, Andrew wrote:
On 26/04/2025 19:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/04/2025 18:53, Andrew wrote:Not for brambles ...
On 25/04/2025 20:07, Andy Burns wrote:I always understood in the grand old days of British Rail that it
Scott wrote:
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate?
Dunno, Dad told the tale of how he obtained some from "a friend"
who worked on the railway, and used it on an aunt's garden ...
supposedly nothing grew there for years.
Are you sure it wasn't 'agent orange' ?. I believe BR was able to
use something related to it on ballast and lineside foliage for
years.
was sodium chlorate
https://www.ch.ic.ac.uk/rzepa/mim/environmental/html/245t.htm
Yes, for brambles
Very much for brambles.
Sodium chlorate kills EVERYTHING.
Look it up. And it persists a long time in the soil, too.
I want some of that . On the other hand..
Https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploding_trousers
Brian
On 26 Apr 2025 at 10:19:29 BST, "Joe" <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 09:33:08 +0100
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On 25/04/2025 19:55, Scott wrote:I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Yet...
"They're just plants that aren't in the place you want them to be.
They've got just as much right to live as your dahlias."
Actually, no. Not when it's Japanese knotweed. Never having heard of the plant
before, I caused one to be rotovated in a bed. I then read about it (this was 30 years ago), went "Oops!", dug up the root ball and burnt it, and spent 7 years spraying roundup on the shoots that appeared each spring. It took that look to eradicate.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 26/04/2025 13:14, Tricky Dicky wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 26/04/2025 10:34, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 26/04/2025 09:33, Scott wrote:
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 08:58:08 +0100, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> >>>>>> wrote:
On 25/04/2025 19:55, Scott wrote:
On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 18:33:38 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> >>>>>>>> wrote:
GB wrote:
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it >>>>>>>>>> could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market
Better value exists from generic glyphosate
<https://green-care.co.uk/product/gallup-hi-aktiv-490g-glyphosate-5ltr>
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate? Sodium >>>>>>>> chlorate degrades to sodium chloride (salt), which is relatively >>>>>>>> harmless. It is also more effective. I assume it is better for the >>>>>>>> environment but worse for humans but we substituted propane and butane >>>>>>>> (which are highly flammable) for CFCs in aerosols in the interests of >>>>>>>> the environment.
It was banned by the EU in 2009. I had assumed it was because it was >>>>>>> possible, with a bit of effort, to remove the fire-depressant and >>>>>>> therefore it became a possible source of an explosive. However, it seems
to be that it was banned because it could be toxic, and no safe level >>>>>>> was established. Its supply after being banned is taken as a serious >>>>>>> infringement of the law:
<https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/crime/company-director-jailed-for-sale-of-banned-weedkiller>
Yes, but of course glyphosate is considered by some to be toxic and >>>>>> harmful to the environment. My question was: on the scale of balance, >>>>>> which is the more toxic? I don't think anyone is suggesting it should >>>>>> be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Oh, but there /is/ a suggestion that it should be illegal to kill weeds >>>>> - at least in public areas. For example,
<https://www.endsreport.com/article/1872380/mps-sign-motion-calling-national-phase-out-pesticides-public-areas>.
As to which is the more toxic, did you mean to humans or any animal
(including insects) in the environment? My guess, and it is a guess, is >>>>> that sodium chlorate would be generally more toxic.
Sodium chlorate oral LD50 in rats is 1200mg/kg
Glyphosate oral LD50 in rats is >5000mg/kg
Guess what this is.
"Serious toxicity occurs when [redacted] is ingested in large amounts (5 >>>> mL/kg in children, 150–200 mL in adults) or at concentrations more than >>>> 6% . Redness, oedema, and ulceration may occur in the oral cavity,
nasopharynx, and oesophagus, and in severe cases gastric perforation may >>>> occur. Complications may include coughing, shortness of breath,
aspiration pneumonia, and upper airway oedema. In severe cases,
pulmonary oedema may occur, and tachycardia, hypotension, and
convulsions have also been reported. Systemically, metabolic acidosis, >>>> hypernatremia, and hyperchloremia appear."
Hint: It isn't banned. It's available in every supermarket.
Aspirin
Nope.
I know what it is!
I drank some when I was very young, I can still remember the taste and the amount of honking up.
On 26/04/2025 13:52, Spike wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 26/04/2025 13:14, Tricky Dicky wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 26/04/2025 10:34, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 26/04/2025 09:33, Scott wrote:
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 08:58:08 +0100, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> >>>>>>> wrote:
On 25/04/2025 19:55, Scott wrote:
On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 18:33:38 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
GB wrote:
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it >>>>>>>>>>> could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market
Better value exists from generic glyphosate
<https://green-care.co.uk/product/gallup-hi-aktiv-490g-glyphosate-5ltr>
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate? Sodium >>>>>>>>> chlorate degrades to sodium chloride (salt), which is relatively >>>>>>>>> harmless. It is also more effective. I assume it is better for the >>>>>>>>> environment but worse for humans but we substituted propane and butane
(which are highly flammable) for CFCs in aerosols in the interests of >>>>>>>>> the environment.
It was banned by the EU in 2009. I had assumed it was because it was >>>>>>>> possible, with a bit of effort, to remove the fire-depressant and >>>>>>>> therefore it became a possible source of an explosive. However, it seems
to be that it was banned because it could be toxic, and no safe level >>>>>>>> was established. Its supply after being banned is taken as a serious >>>>>>>> infringement of the law:
<https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/crime/company-director-jailed-for-sale-of-banned-weedkiller>
Yes, but of course glyphosate is considered by some to be toxic and >>>>>>> harmful to the environment. My question was: on the scale of balance, >>>>>>> which is the more toxic? I don't think anyone is suggesting it should >>>>>>> be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Oh, but there /is/ a suggestion that it should be illegal to kill weeds >>>>>> - at least in public areas. For example,
<https://www.endsreport.com/article/1872380/mps-sign-motion-calling-national-phase-out-pesticides-public-areas>.
As to which is the more toxic, did you mean to humans or any animal >>>>>> (including insects) in the environment? My guess, and it is a guess, is >>>>>> that sodium chlorate would be generally more toxic.
Sodium chlorate oral LD50 in rats is 1200mg/kg
Glyphosate oral LD50 in rats is >5000mg/kg
Guess what this is.
"Serious toxicity occurs when [redacted] is ingested in large amounts (5 >>>>> mL/kg in children, 150–200 mL in adults) or at concentrations more than >>>>> 6% . Redness, oedema, and ulceration may occur in the oral cavity,
nasopharynx, and oesophagus, and in severe cases gastric perforation may >>>>> occur. Complications may include coughing, shortness of breath,
aspiration pneumonia, and upper airway oedema. In severe cases,
pulmonary oedema may occur, and tachycardia, hypotension, and
convulsions have also been reported. Systemically, metabolic acidosis, >>>>> hypernatremia, and hyperchloremia appear."
Hint: It isn't banned. It's available in every supermarket.
Aspirin
Nope.
I know what it is!
I drank some when I was very young, I can still remember the taste and the >> amount of honking up.
School milk?
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 09:33:08 +0100
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On 25/04/2025 19:55, Scott wrote:I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Yet...
"They're just plants that aren't in the place you want them to be.
They've got just as much right to live as your dahlias."
There are minor victories, but I don't think we've hit peak insanity
yet.
Actually, no. Not when it's Japanese knotweed. Never having heard ofYou just think you have eradicated it. It's just biding its time.
the plant
before, I caused one to be rotovated in a bed. I then read about it
(this was
30 years ago), went "Oops!", dug up the root ball and burnt it, and
spent 7
years spraying roundup on the shoots that appeared each spring. It
took that
look to eradicate.
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