• OT: Bank transfers

    From Davey@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jun 2 10:04:07 2025
    Why does an outgoing charge from my bank get debited instantly, but a
    refund always takes "Three to five working days" before it appears in
    the receiving bank account?
    Surely it's all a process of moving a series of electrons around
    somewhere.

    --
    Davey.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Davey on Mon Jun 2 10:18:33 2025
    On 02/06/2025 10:04, Davey wrote:
    Why does an outgoing charge from my bank get debited instantly, but a
    refund always takes "Three to five working days" before it appears in
    the receiving bank account?
    Surely it's all a process of moving a series of electrons around
    somewhere.

    I think not.

    A transfer from your account initiated by you. is routine and not
    security cheacked much.#
    A refund probably needs human authorisation.

    --
    “It is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
    making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
    who pay no price for being wrong.”

    Thomas Sowell

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  • From David@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Jun 2 10:32:22 2025
    On 02/06/2025 10:18, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 02/06/2025 10:04, Davey wrote:
    Why does an outgoing charge from my bank get debited instantly, but a
    refund always takes "Three to five working days" before it appears in
    the receiving bank account?
    Surely it's all a process of moving a series of electrons around
    somewhere.

    I think not.

    A transfer from your account initiated by you. is routine and not
    security cheacked much.#

    I beg to differ. Since the inception of APP, banks have become paranoid
    in case the payment is for a scam and the bank will be liable for the customer's loss.


    A refund probably needs human authorisation.


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  • From Andy Burns@21:1/5 to Davey on Mon Jun 2 11:01:45 2025
    Davey wrote:

    Why does an outgoing charge from my bank get debited instantly, but a
    refund always takes "Three to five working days"

    I presume it takes the company several days to request the refund, then
    it's paid "instantly" by the banks ...

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  • From Jethro_uk@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jun 2 10:04:22 2025
    How come you can sign up for something instantly, but it takes up to "x
    days" for them to unsubscribe you ?

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  • From Joe@21:1/5 to jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com on Mon Jun 2 12:28:00 2025
    On Mon, 2 Jun 2025 10:04:22 -0000 (UTC)
    Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:

    How come you can sign up for something instantly, but it takes up to
    "x days" for them to unsubscribe you ?

    Don't know. I never unsubscribe from anything, given that I almost
    always never subscribed to whatever is annoying me.

    --
    Joe

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jun 2 14:12:57 2025
    On 02/06/2025 11:04, Jethro_uk wrote:
    How come you can sign up for something instantly, but it takes up to "x
    days" for them to unsubscribe you ?
    I emptied by Barclays trading account 5 years ago.
    They still send me statements
    Emptying it was hard enough. Closing it was simply more of a problem
    than it was worth


    --
    “Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”

    ― Voltaire, Questions sur les Miracles à M. Claparede, Professeur de Théologie à Genève, par un Proposant: Ou Extrait de Diverses Lettres de
    M. de Voltaire

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  • From Peter Johnson@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jun 2 15:08:51 2025
    On Mon, 2 Jun 2025 10:04:07 +0100, Davey <davey@example.invalid>
    wrote:

    Why does an outgoing charge from my bank get debited instantly, but a
    refund always takes "Three to five working days" before it appears in
    the receiving bank account?

    Do they actually take that long though? eBay say their payments (for
    sales) will take several days but they are actually made within
    seconds of being requested. Just arse covering to say it will take
    longer.

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  • From Davey@21:1/5 to Peter Johnson on Mon Jun 2 17:10:55 2025
    On Mon, 02 Jun 2025 15:08:51 +0100
    Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:

    On Mon, 2 Jun 2025 10:04:07 +0100, Davey <davey@example.invalid>
    wrote:

    Why does an outgoing charge from my bank get debited instantly, but a >refund always takes "Three to five working days" before it appears in
    the receiving bank account?

    Do they actually take that long though? eBay say their payments (for
    sales) will take several days but they are actually made within
    seconds of being requested. Just arse covering to say it will take
    longer.

    I don't know if it actually takes that long. What I do know is that it
    is always stated as "Three to five working days", even if it was at a
    shop's checkout. I think the banks just want to hold on to your money
    for a little longer.

    --
    Davey.

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  • From Paul@21:1/5 to Davey on Mon Jun 2 13:03:00 2025
    On Mon, 6/2/2025 5:04 AM, Davey wrote:
    Why does an outgoing charge from my bank get debited instantly, but a
    refund always takes "Three to five working days" before it appears in
    the receiving bank account?
    Surely it's all a process of moving a series of electrons around
    somewhere.


    The keyword there, might be "float".

    Banks are allowed to take a certain time to do a thing.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Float_%28money_supply%29

    I don't really understand it at all, but the visual evidence
    is it always works against your interests :-) The time allocated
    to do a thing, is the time it took to process the item forty years
    ago.

    Paul

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  • From nib@21:1/5 to Paul on Mon Jun 2 18:21:51 2025
    On 2025-06-02 18:03, Paul wrote:
    On Mon, 6/2/2025 5:04 AM, Davey wrote:
    Why does an outgoing charge from my bank get debited instantly, but a
    refund always takes "Three to five working days" before it appears in
    the receiving bank account?
    Surely it's all a process of moving a series of electrons around
    somewhere.


    The keyword there, might be "float".

    Banks are allowed to take a certain time to do a thing.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Float_%28money_supply%29

    I don't really understand it at all, but the visual evidence
    is it always works against your interests :-) The time allocated
    to do a thing, is the time it took to process the item forty years
    ago.

    Paul

    I've always assumed that it's because retailers really don't like giving
    money back to customers!

    When I buy something in a shop the charge appears immediately, typically
    I hear the notification from the bank on the phone while I'm still at
    the till. But that's usually in a "pending" state for a day or two
    before it becomes confirmed.

    In the same shop, if I get a refund, nothing happens for a day or two
    and then the credit appears but with no period of being "pending".

    nib

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  • From brian@21:1/5 to davey@example.invalid on Tue Jun 3 08:10:41 2025
    In message <101jpe8$35fnn$1@dont-email.me>, Davey
    <davey@example.invalid> writes
    Why does an outgoing charge from my bank get debited instantly, but a
    refund always takes "Three to five working days" before it appears in
    the receiving bank account?
    Surely it's all a process of moving a series of electrons around
    somewhere.


    It's because they invest it in the 3.30 at Chelt ^H^H Stock Market
    before paying it out to you.

    Likewise transactions made over the weekend - marked "pending"

    Utility companies do something similar with consumer credit.

    Brian

    --
    Brian Howie

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to brian on Tue Jun 3 11:57:03 2025
    On 03/06/2025 08:10, brian wrote:
    In message <101jpe8$35fnn$1@dont-email.me>, Davey
    <davey@example.invalid> writes
    Why does an outgoing charge from my bank get debited instantly, but a
    refund always takes "Three to five working days" before it appears in
    the receiving bank account?
    Surely it's all a process of moving a series of electrons around
    somewhere.


    It's because they invest it in  the 3.30 at Chelt ^H^H  Stock  Market before paying it out to you.

    Likewise transactions made over the weekend - marked "pending"

    Utility companies do something similar with consumer credit.

    Brian

    Its amazing how much money you can making overnighting it on the Money
    Markets. If the sums involved are large enough.

    That's why banking is now 'free'

    I once lost a large payment from a Belgian bank to my UK one. It
    usually took around 4 days. This one took 4 weeks. It was traced to the
    bank of scotland, from where it never emerged.

    After numerous requests it finally got transferred to my Lloyds account
    with the comment that 'the person who dealt with these transfers had
    been on holiday'.
    4 weeks at APR of say 5% on £4000 is not pennies


    --
    The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
    rule.
    – H. L. Mencken, American journalist, 1880-1956

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  • From Peter Johnson@21:1/5 to tnp@invalid.invalid on Tue Jun 3 14:15:04 2025
    On Tue, 3 Jun 2025 11:57:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:


    Its amazing how much money you can making overnighting it on the Money >Markets. If the sums involved are large enough.

    I knew someone, now deceased, who ran a family business. He heard
    about investing overnight and told his bank manager that's what he
    wanted to do with the company's balances. The BM tried to discourage
    him but he stood his ground and found it a worthwhile exercise.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Peter Johnson on Tue Jun 3 15:58:53 2025
    On 03/06/2025 14:15, Peter Johnson wrote:
    On Tue, 3 Jun 2025 11:57:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:


    Its amazing how much money you can making overnighting it on the Money
    Markets. If the sums involved are large enough.

    I knew someone, now deceased, who ran a family business. He heard
    about investing overnight and told his bank manager that's what he
    wanted to do with the company's balances. The BM tried to discourage
    him but he stood his ground and found it a worthwhile exercise.

    At one time the first company I was FD for had a fair bit of cash
    surplus in the bank. WE had a cracking accountant. He overnighted a
    couple of hundred thousand every night and by the end of the year he
    had as he smilingly reported 'made the company enough to pay his salary'


    --
    Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the
    gospel of envy.

    Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

    Winston Churchill

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  • From Sam Plusnet@21:1/5 to Peter Johnson on Tue Jun 3 19:58:47 2025
    On 03/06/2025 14:15, Peter Johnson wrote:
    On Tue, 3 Jun 2025 11:57:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:


    Its amazing how much money you can making overnighting it on the Money
    Markets. If the sums involved are large enough.

    I knew someone, now deceased, who ran a family business. He heard
    about investing overnight and told his bank manager that's what he
    wanted to do with the company's balances. The BM tried to discourage
    him but he stood his ground and found it a worthwhile exercise.

    Back in (IIRC) the 1960s, the chief officer responsible for collecting
    rents on all the properies owned by the Liverpool Corporation ran an interesting scheme.
    For several years, any rents paid before the due date (a lot of people
    did this) would go into such an account in his name.
    On the due date, the money was tranferred into the Corporation's account.

    He had a very comfortable retirement in a place in the sun.

    --
    Sam Plusnet

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  • From Harry Bloomfield Esq@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Jun 3 21:41:15 2025
    On 02/06/2025 14:12, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    They still send me statements
    Emptying it was hard enough. Closing it was simply more of a problem
    than it was worth

    The same here. I have three TSB accounts, I rang them to ask them to
    close them, and they said I would have to go to a branch to close them.
    Nearest TSB, 10 miles away, a city centre, getting there would cost,
    plus time, so I simply emptied both of the redundant accounts. I still
    get the statements for £0.00.

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  • From Davey@21:1/5 to Harry Bloomfield Esq on Tue Jun 3 23:18:24 2025
    On Tue, 3 Jun 2025 21:41:15 +0100
    Harry Bloomfield Esq <harry.m1byt@outlook.com> wrote:

    On 02/06/2025 14:12, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    They still send me statements
    Emptying it was hard enough. Closing it was simply more of a
    problem than it was worth

    The same here. I have three TSB accounts, I rang them to ask them to
    close them, and they said I would have to go to a branch to close
    them. Nearest TSB, 10 miles away, a city centre, getting there would
    cost, plus time, so I simply emptied both of the redundant accounts.
    I still get the statements for £0.00.

    We lived in the US for many years, then returned here. We kept our bank
    account in the US for paying bills, subscriptions, etc. My wife died,
    and when I asked the US bank to remove her name from the account, as
    they kept sending her statements, reminders, etc, they told me I would
    have to go into a branch of the bank to do that. When I explained that
    there are not many branches of US Banks in the UK, they connected me to
    a 'special operative' who could circumvent the normal rigid rules of the
    bank.
    But it took a very long time before the unwelcome mailings finally
    stopped. The bank often sends me statements confirming that there were
    no transactions since the last statement.
    --
    Davey.

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  • From Sam Plusnet@21:1/5 to Harry Bloomfield Esq on Wed Jun 4 20:32:00 2025
    On 03/06/2025 21:41, Harry Bloomfield Esq wrote:
    On 02/06/2025 14:12, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    They still send me statements
    Emptying it was hard enough. Closing it was simply more of a problem
    than it was worth

    The same here. I have three TSB accounts, I rang them to ask them to
    close them, and they said I would have to go to a branch to close them. Nearest TSB, 10 miles away, a city centre, getting there would cost,
    plus time, so I simply emptied both of the redundant accounts. I still
    get the statements for £0.00.

    With a lousy rate of interest, no doubt.

    --
    Sam Plusnet

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  • From Davey@21:1/5 to Sam Plusnet on Thu Jun 5 01:42:52 2025
    On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 20:32:00 +0100
    Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

    On 03/06/2025 21:41, Harry Bloomfield Esq wrote:
    On 02/06/2025 14:12, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    They still send me statements
    Emptying it was hard enough. Closing it was simply more of a
    problem than it was worth

    The same here. I have three TSB accounts, I rang them to ask them
    to close them, and they said I would have to go to a branch to
    close them. Nearest TSB, 10 miles away, a city centre, getting
    there would cost, plus time, so I simply emptied both of the
    redundant accounts. I still get the statements for £0.00.

    With a lousy rate of interest, no doubt.


    At least they don't charge for the postage for the statements.

    --
    Davey.

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  • From Davey@21:1/5 to Davey on Sat Jun 28 15:53:21 2025
    On Mon, 2 Jun 2025 10:04:07 +0100
    Davey <davey@example.invalid> wrote:

    Why does an outgoing charge from my bank get debited instantly, but a
    refund always takes "Three to five working days" before it appears in
    the receiving bank account?
    Surely it's all a process of moving a series of electrons around
    somewhere.


    In contrast to just about every other post in this thread, I recently
    returned an item to Amazon for refund. I downloaded and printed the
    return form, then took it to our local service station in the early
    afternoon. My refund was in my bank account that same evening. I
    doubt if they had even received the package by then.

    --
    Davey.

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  • From Jeff Gaines@21:1/5 to Davey on Sat Jun 28 15:02:43 2025
    On 28/06/2025 in message <103ovl1$tjoc$1@dont-email.me> Davey wrote:

    On Mon, 2 Jun 2025 10:04:07 +0100
    Davey <davey@example.invalid> wrote:

    Why does an outgoing charge from my bank get debited instantly, but a >>refund always takes "Three to five working days" before it appears in
    the receiving bank account?
    Surely it's all a process of moving a series of electrons around
    somewhere.


    In contrast to just about every other post in this thread, I recently >returned an item to Amazon for refund. I downloaded and printed the
    return form, then took it to our local service station in the early >afternoon. My refund was in my bank account that same evening. I
    doubt if they had even received the package by then.

    They refund you as soon as their system shows it's on its way back.
    Presumably if it turns out to be half a house brick when it arrives they
    charge you.

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    There are 10 types of people in the world, those who do binary and those
    who don't.

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  • From charles@21:1/5 to Davey on Sat Jun 28 16:30:02 2025
    In article <103ovl1$tjoc$1@dont-email.me>,
    Davey <davey@example.invalid> wrote:
    On Mon, 2 Jun 2025 10:04:07 +0100
    Davey <davey@example.invalid> wrote:

    Why does an outgoing charge from my bank get debited instantly, but a refund always takes "Three to five working days" before it appears in
    the receiving bank account?
    Surely it's all a process of moving a series of electrons around
    somewhere.


    In contrast to just about every other post in this thread, I recently returned an item to Amazon for refund. I downloaded and printed the
    return form, then took it to our local service station in the early afternoon. My refund was in my bank account that same evening. I
    doubt if they had even received the package by then.

    A few years ago, I also had a very fast refund. About a week later, I
    received my return back as "un-deliverable, no such address exists".

    --
    from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4t
    "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

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  • From Davey@21:1/5 to charles on Sat Jun 28 18:08:19 2025
    On Sat, 28 Jun 25 16:30:02 UTC
    charles <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:

    In article <103ovl1$tjoc$1@dont-email.me>,
    Davey <davey@example.invalid> wrote:
    On Mon, 2 Jun 2025 10:04:07 +0100
    Davey <davey@example.invalid> wrote:

    Why does an outgoing charge from my bank get debited instantly,
    but a refund always takes "Three to five working days" before it
    appears in the receiving bank account?
    Surely it's all a process of moving a series of electrons around somewhere.


    In contrast to just about every other post in this thread, I
    recently returned an item to Amazon for refund. I downloaded and
    printed the return form, then took it to our local service station
    in the early afternoon. My refund was in my bank account that same
    evening. I doubt if they had even received the package by then.

    A few years ago, I also had a very fast refund. About a week later, I received my return back as "un-deliverable, no such address exists".


    Was that with their own label?

    --
    Davay.

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  • From Davey@21:1/5 to me@privacy.net on Sat Jun 28 18:19:51 2025
    On Sat, 28 Jun 2025 18:16:18 +0100
    NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:

    In article <103ovl1$tjoc$1@dont-email.me>,
    Davey <davey@example.invalid> wrote:
    On Mon, 2 Jun 2025 10:04:07 +0100
    Davey <davey@example.invalid> wrote:

    Why does an outgoing charge from my bank get debited instantly,
    but a refund always takes "Three to five working days" before it
    appears in the receiving bank account?
    Surely it's all a process of moving a series of electrons around
    somewhere.


    In contrast to just about every other post in this thread, I
    recently returned an item to Amazon for refund. I downloaded and
    printed the return form, then took it to our local service station
    in the early afternoon. My refund was in my bank account that same
    evening. I doubt if they had even received the package by then.
    My experience with returning items either to a post office to handing
    to our postman (having booked him to collect the item) is that as
    soon as it is in Royal Mail's hands, Amazon deemed to be "returned"
    and they do a refund.

    What really amazed me was the speed at which it appeared in my account.
    If Amazon can do it, why can't everybody else?

    --
    Davey.

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  • From NY@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 28 18:16:18 2025
    In article <103ovl1$tjoc$1@dont-email.me>,
    Davey <davey@example.invalid> wrote:
    On Mon, 2 Jun 2025 10:04:07 +0100
    Davey <davey@example.invalid> wrote:

    Why does an outgoing charge from my bank get debited instantly, but a
    refund always takes "Three to five working days" before it appears in
    the receiving bank account?
    Surely it's all a process of moving a series of electrons around
    somewhere.


    In contrast to just about every other post in this thread, I recently
    returned an item to Amazon for refund. I downloaded and printed the
    return form, then took it to our local service station in the early
    afternoon. My refund was in my bank account that same evening. I
    doubt if they had even received the package by then.
    My experience with returning items either to a post office to handing to
    our postman (having booked him to collect the item) is that as soon as
    it is in Royal Mail's hands, Amazon deemed to be "returned" and they do
    a refund.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From alan_m@21:1/5 to Davey on Sat Jun 28 19:03:45 2025
    On 28/06/2025 18:19, Davey wrote:
    On Sat, 28 Jun 2025 18:16:18 +0100
    NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:

    In article <103ovl1$tjoc$1@dont-email.me>,
    Davey <davey@example.invalid> wrote:
    On Mon, 2 Jun 2025 10:04:07 +0100
    Davey <davey@example.invalid> wrote:

    Why does an outgoing charge from my bank get debited instantly,
    but a refund always takes "Three to five working days" before it
    appears in the receiving bank account?
    Surely it's all a process of moving a series of electrons around
    somewhere.


    In contrast to just about every other post in this thread, I
    recently returned an item to Amazon for refund. I downloaded and
    printed the return form, then took it to our local service station
    in the early afternoon. My refund was in my bank account that same
    evening. I doubt if they had even received the package by then.
    My experience with returning items either to a post office to handing
    to our postman (having booked him to collect the item) is that as
    soon as it is in Royal Mail's hands, Amazon deemed to be "returned"
    and they do a refund.

    What really amazed me was the speed at which it appeared in my account.
    If Amazon can do it, why can't everybody else?


    If RM can contact Amazon instantly why can't they deliver a tracked item
    on the day when their tracking email says they will?

    --
    mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From charles@21:1/5 to Davey on Sat Jun 28 18:15:01 2025
    In article <103p7i3$vkod$1@dont-email.me>,
    Davey <davey@example.invalid> wrote:
    On Sat, 28 Jun 25 16:30:02 UTC
    charles <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:

    In article <103ovl1$tjoc$1@dont-email.me>,
    Davey <davey@example.invalid> wrote:
    On Mon, 2 Jun 2025 10:04:07 +0100
    Davey <davey@example.invalid> wrote:

    Why does an outgoing charge from my bank get debited instantly,
    but a refund always takes "Three to five working days" before it appears in the receiving bank account?
    Surely it's all a process of moving a series of electrons around somewhere.


    In contrast to just about every other post in this thread, I
    recently returned an item to Amazon for refund. I downloaded and
    printed the return form, then took it to our local service station
    in the early afternoon. My refund was in my bank account that same evening. I doubt if they had even received the package by then.

    A few years ago, I also had a very fast refund. About a week later, I received my return back as "un-deliverable, no such address exists".


    Was that with their own label?

    yes, it was sent with their downloaded address label.

    --
    from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4t
    "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

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  • From NY@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 28 19:19:04 2025
    On 28/06/2025 19:03, alan_m wrote:
    If RM can contact Amazon instantly why can't they deliver a tracked item
    on the day when their tracking email says they will?

    To be fair, Amazon's own couriers are notorious where I live for
    sometimes failing to deliver and then delivering the following day. My
    wife has sometimes watched on the Track Your Package site. With a few
    stops remaining before us, the number of stops and the position on the
    map both freeze and the status changes to "Sorry, we could not deliver
    your package". It's as if the courier gets to a certain point on his
    round and then says "that's enough parcels for today; I'll take the
    remaining ones back to base and someone else can deliver them tomorrow".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Harry Bloomfield Esq@21:1/5 to Sam Plusnet on Sat Jun 28 22:15:22 2025
    On 04/06/2025 20:32, Sam Plusnet wrote:
    With a lousy rate of interest, no doubt.

    I'm ashamed to say, one of the accounts had a substantial sum in it for
    years, the annual interest paid - 1p. Since posting, I have opened an
    account with another bank, which at least pays respectable interest, and transferred it to that new account.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jun 29 09:46:54 2025
    On 28/06/2025 19:03, alan_m wrote:
    If RM can contact Amazon instantly why can't they deliver a tracked item
    on the day when their tracking email says they will?

    Ah. Once they have robot delivery men they probably will.

    --
    "The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
    look exactly the same afterwards."

    Billy Connolly

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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