RJH and others have a habit of saying "until cheap storage comes along" or similar, as if the coming along such cheap storage is an inevitability. Does anyone here see it as inevitable, and if so what form would such storage take?
On 06/07/2025 16:25, Tim Streater wrote:
RJH and others have a habit of saying "until cheap storage comes along" or >> similar, as if the coming along such cheap storage is an inevitability. Does >> anyone here see it as inevitable, and if so what form would such storage take?
It's here already. Its called uranium, and better still, it comes
already charged up so there is no need for fucking windmills.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 06/07/2025 16:25, Tim Streater wrote:
RJH and others have a habit of saying "until cheap storage comes
along" or similar, as if the coming along such cheap storage is an
inevitability. Does anyone here see it as inevitable, and if so what
form would such storage take?
It's here already. Its called uranium, and better still, it comes
already charged up so there is no need for fucking windmills.
In article <mcvpmuFblgrU1@mid.individual.net>, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 06/07/2025 16:25, Tim Streater wrote:
RJH and others have a habit of saying "until cheap storage comes
along" or similar, as if the coming along such cheap storage is an
inevitability. Does anyone here see it as inevitable, and if so what
form would such storage take?
It's here already. Its called uranium, and better still, it comes
already charged up so there is no need for fucking windmills.
Sounds perfect, but when the nuclear power station at Hunterston, on the Clyde, was built, storage was needed for the energy produced at night when nobody wanted it. So the pumped storage system at Cruachan was built as
part of he project.
RJH and others
have a habit of saying "until cheap storage comes along" or
similar, as if the coming along such cheap storage is an inevitability. Does anyone here see it as inevitable, and if so what form would such storage take?
On 06/07/2025 22:30, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/07/2025 16:25, Tim Streater wrote:
RJH and others
RJH?
have a habit of saying "until cheap storage comes along" or
similar, as if the coming along such cheap storage is an
inevitability. Does
anyone here see it as inevitable, and if so what form would such
storage take?
Storage is trivial on a small scale, but gets significantly more
complex and expensive at the power station kind of level. At grid
scale it currently looks like it is cloud Cuckoo land!
A lot of the storage problem could achieved by every domestic dwelling
in the UK having a 30KWh* battery. It would only be an up front cost of around £600 billion. :) This ignores industry and commercial storage.
*This assumes that 60% of our generation capacity falls off the cliff
for a week when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine. Average household electricity usage for a week = 56kWh, 60% = 33kWh.
Assumption 2: £7.5k per 10kWh battery capacity, including installation.
This also is before any consideration that a household may increase its electricity usage because of switching to ASHPs and EVs.
On 06/07/2025 16:25, Tim Streater wrote:
RJH and others
RJH?
have a habit of saying "until cheap storage comes along" or
similar, as if the coming along such cheap storage is an
inevitability. Does
anyone here see it as inevitable, and if so what form would such
storage take?
Storage is trivial on a small scale, but gets significantly more complex
and expensive at the power station kind of level. At grid scale it
currently looks like it is cloud Cuckoo land!
On 07/07/2025 07:16, alan_m wrote:
On 06/07/2025 22:30, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/07/2025 16:25, Tim Streater wrote:
RJH and others
RJH?
have a habit of saying "until cheap storage comes along" or
similar, as if the coming along such cheap storage is an
inevitability. Does
anyone here see it as inevitable, and if so what form would such
storage take?
Storage is trivial on a small scale, but gets significantly more
complex and expensive at the power station kind of level. At grid
scale it currently looks like it is cloud Cuckoo land!
A lot of the storage problem could achieved by every domestic dwelling
in the UK having a 30KWh* battery. It would only be an up front cost of
around £600 billion. :) This ignores industry and commercial storage. >>
*This assumes that 60% of our generation capacity falls off the cliff
for a week when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine. Average
household electricity usage for a week = 56kWh, 60% = 33kWh.
Assumption 2: £7.5k per 10kWh battery capacity, including installation.
This also is before any consideration that a household may increase its
electricity usage because of switching to ASHPs and EVs.
You had the ideal opportunity to use that marvelous zeigeist word dunkelflaute
On 06/07/2025 22:30, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/07/2025 16:25, Tim Streater wrote:
RJH and others
RJH?
have a habit of saying "until cheap storage comes along" or
similar, as if the coming along such cheap storage is an
inevitability. Does
anyone here see it as inevitable, and if so what form would such
storage take?
Storage is trivial on a small scale, but gets significantly more
complex and expensive at the power station kind of level. At grid
scale it currently looks like it is cloud Cuckoo land!
A lot of the storage problem could achieved by every domestic dwelling
in the UK having a 30KWh* battery. It would only be an up front cost of around £600 billion. :) This ignores industry and commercial storage.
*This assumes that 60% of our generation capacity falls off the cliff
for a week when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine. Average household electricity usage for a week = 56kWh, 60% = 33kWh.
Assumption 2: £7.5k per 10kWh battery capacity, including installation.
This also is before any consideration that a household may increase its electricity usage because of switching to ASHPs and EVs.
A lot of the storage problem could achieved by every domestic dwelling
in the UK having a 30KWh* battery. It would only be an up front cost of around £600 billion. 🙂 This ignores industry and commercial storage.
Knowledge gap issue...
What practical safety problems arise where local stored energy is linked
to the incoming mains supply? Managing cable repairs etc.
On 06/07/2025 20:15, charles wrote:
In article <mcvpmuFblgrU1@mid.individual.net>, Spike
<aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 06/07/2025 16:25, Tim Streater wrote:
RJH and others have a habit of saying "until cheap storage comes
along" or similar, as if the coming along such cheap storage is an
inevitability. Does anyone here see it as inevitable, and if so what >>>> form would such storage take?
It's here already. Its called uranium, and better still, it comes
already charged up so there is no need for fucking windmills.
Sounds perfect, but when the nuclear power station at Hunterston, on
the Clyde, was built, storage was needed for the energy produced at
night when nobody wanted it. So the pumped storage system at Cruachan
was built as part of he project.
Not eactly true. The decision is commercial, What is cheaper - another
power station than runs 2 hrs a day or pumped storage
On 07/07/2025 07:16, alan_m wrote:
On 06/07/2025 22:30, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/07/2025 16:25, Tim Streater wrote:
RJH and others
RJH?
have a habit of saying "until cheap storage comes along" or
similar, as if the coming along such cheap storage is an
inevitability. Does
anyone here see it as inevitable, and if so what form would such
storage take?
Storage is trivial on a small scale, but gets significantly more
complex and expensive at the power station kind of level. At grid
scale it currently looks like it is cloud Cuckoo land!
A lot of the storage problem could achieved by every domestic dwelling
in the UK having a 30KWh* battery. It would only be an up front cost of
around £600 billion. :) This ignores industry and commercial storage. >>
*This assumes that 60% of our generation capacity falls off the cliff
for a week when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine. Average
household electricity usage for a week = 56kWh, 60% = 33kWh.
Assumption 2: £7.5k per 10kWh battery capacity, including installation.
This also is before any consideration that a household may increase its
electricity usage because of switching to ASHPs and EVs.
Knowledge gap issue...
What practical safety problems arise where local stored energy is linked
to the incoming mains supply? Managing cable repairs etc.
In article <104ekgs$2dfdb$2@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 06/07/2025 20:15, charles wrote:
In article <mcvpmuFblgrU1@mid.individual.net>, SpikeNot eactly true. The decision is commercial, What is cheaper - another
<aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 06/07/2025 16:25, Tim Streater wrote:
RJH and others have a habit of saying "until cheap storage comes
along" or similar, as if the coming along such cheap storage is an >>>>>> inevitability. Does anyone here see it as inevitable, and if so what >>>>>> form would such storage take?
It's here already. Its called uranium, and better still, it comes
already charged up so there is no need for fucking windmills.
Sounds perfect, but when the nuclear power station at Hunterston, on
the Clyde, was built, storage was needed for the energy produced at
night when nobody wanted it. So the pumped storage system at Cruachan
was built as part of he project.
power station than runs 2 hrs a day or pumped storage
The Cruachan scheme was done by a nationalised electricity business, I suspect it was an engineering decision, Now, Cruachan is owned by Drax who are doubling its capacity.
On 07/07/2025 07:16, alan_m wrote:
A lot of the storage problem could achieved by every domestic dwelling
in the UK having a 30KWh* battery. It would only be an up front cost
of around £600 billion. 🙂 This ignores industry and commercial
storage.
I agree we are at the stage when every household should be incentivised
to have a battery over having solar PV panels but this only for peak
lopping and virtual load shifting.
Also 10kWh battery takes up space and 3 of them more.
Batteries are good for a few day's power at most.You cannot get around
the fact that PV generates so little in the three winter months Mid
November to mid Februar and wind is variable too.
I think it would need countries with more reliable and constant
renewable power to synthesis a transportable fuel, in the same way Noway
and Canada made fixed nitrogen fertiliser using hydro electric.
On 07/07/2025 09:19, ajh wrote:
On 07/07/2025 07:16, alan_m wrote:
A lot of the storage problem could achieved by every domestic dwelling
in the UK having a 30KWh* battery. It would only be an up front cost
of around £600 billion. 🙂 This ignores industry and commercial
storage.
I agree we are at the stage when every household should be incentivised
to have a battery over having solar PV panels but this only for peak
lopping and virtual load shifting.
Also 10kWh battery takes up space and 3 of them more.
Batteries are good for a few day's power at most.You cannot get around
the fact that PV generates so little in the three winter months Mid
November to mid Februar and wind is variable too.
I think it would need countries with more reliable and constant
renewable power to synthesis a transportable fuel, in the same way Noway
and Canada made fixed nitrogen fertiliser using hydro electric.
No such super-high energy density battery for me thank you, how many
people would willingly have an unexploded incendiary bomb sitting at the heart of their house?
On 07/07/2025 11:30, charles wrote:
In article <104ekgs$2dfdb$2@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 06/07/2025 20:15, charles wrote:
In article <mcvpmuFblgrU1@mid.individual.net>, SpikeNot eactly true. The decision is commercial, What is cheaper - another
<aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 06/07/2025 16:25, Tim Streater wrote:
RJH and others have a habit of saying "until cheap storage comes >>>>>>> along" or similar, as if the coming along such cheap storage is an >>>>>>> inevitability. Does anyone here see it as inevitable, and if so what >>>>>>> form would such storage take?
It's here already. Its called uranium, and better still, it comes
already charged up so there is no need for fucking windmills.
Sounds perfect, but when the nuclear power station at Hunterston, on
the Clyde, was built, storage was needed for the energy produced at
night when nobody wanted it. So the pumped storage system at Cruachan
was built as part of he project.
power station than runs 2 hrs a day or pumped storage
The Cruachan scheme was done by a nationalised electricity business, I
suspect it was an engineering decision, Now, Cruachan is owned by Drax
who
are doubling its capacity.
Engineering includes cost.
When I went round Ffestiniog they said the decision was simple - pumped storage or another power station. Pumped storage was cheaper.
There are many quite suitable pumped storage sites in Scotland, that
haven't been exploited yet. The decision is always cost wise.
On 06/07/2025 16:25, Tim Streater wrote:
RJH and others
RJH?
have a habit of saying "until cheap storage comes along" or
similar, as if the coming along such cheap storage is an inevitability.
Does
anyone here see it as inevitable, and if so what form would such storage take?
Storage is trivial on a small scale,
but gets significantly more complex
and expensive at the power station kind of level. At grid scale it
currently looks like it is cloud Cuckoo land!
On 06/07/2025 22:30, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/07/2025 16:25, Tim Streater wrote:
RJH and others
RJH?
have a habit of saying "until cheap storage comes along" or
similar, as if the coming along such cheap storage is an
inevitability. Does
anyone here see it as inevitable, and if so what form would such
storage take?
Storage is trivial on a small scale, but gets significantly more
complex and expensive at the power station kind of level. At grid
scale it currently looks like it is cloud Cuckoo land!
A lot of the storage problem could achieved by every domestic dwelling
in the UK having a 30KWh* battery.
It would only be an up front cost of
around £600 billion. :) This ignores industry and commercial storage.
*This assumes that 60% of our generation capacity falls off the cliff
for a week when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine. Average household electricity usage for a week = 56kWh, 60% = 33kWh.
Assumption 2: £7.5k per 10kWh battery capacity, including installation.
This also is before any consideration that a household may increase its electricity usage because of switching to ASHPs and EVs.
No such super-high energy density battery for me thank you, how many
people would willingly have an unexploded incendiary bomb sitting at the >heart of their house?
On 07/07/2025 07:16, alan_m wrote:
*This assumes that 60% of our generation capacity falls off the cliff
for a week when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine.
Average household electricity usage for a week = 56kWh, 60% = 33kWh.
Assumption 2: £7.5k per 10kWh battery capacity, including installation.
This also is before any consideration that a household may increase
its electricity usage because of switching to ASHPs and EVs.
Indeed, transport and space heating would probably add another 30 - 40% demand on the grid.
I have 19 kWhrs of battery and I sleep okay. liFePo batteries have a negligible risk of immolation.
I would add that all of these discussions never mention cutting back consumption. Always maintaining or 'growing'. That's a whole other set of possibilities.
On 07/07/2025 12:03, Tim+ wrote:
I have 19 kWhrs of battery and I sleep okay. liFePo batteries have a negligible risk of immolation.
The risk of liFePo battery causing the fire may be lower but its not too
safe if it is in a house fire.
On 07/07/2025 12:03, Tim+ wrote:
I have 19 kWhrs of battery and I sleep okay. liFePo batteries have a
negligible risk of immolation.
The risk of liFePo battery causing the fire may be lower but its not too
safe if it is in a house fire.
Timatmarford <tim@marford.uk.com> wrote:
On 07/07/2025 07:16, alan_m wrote:
On 06/07/2025 22:30, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/07/2025 16:25, Tim Streater wrote:
RJH and others
Knowledge gap issue...
What practical safety problems arise where local stored energy is linked
to the incoming mains supply? Managing cable repairs etc.
All domestic battery installations that can provide home power in the event of loss of grid supply already have to be either on a separate circuit
(cheap option) or have a “break before make” changeover switch. This switch can be manual or automatic. This ensures no “back-feeding” into the
grid.
On 07/07/2025 11:39, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/07/2025 11:30, charles wrote:
In article <104ekgs$2dfdb$2@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 06/07/2025 20:15, charles wrote:
In article <mcvpmuFblgrU1@mid.individual.net>, SpikeNot eactly true. The decision is commercial, What is cheaper - another >>>> power station than runs 2 hrs a day or pumped storage
<aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 06/07/2025 16:25, Tim Streater wrote:
RJH and others have a habit of saying "until cheap storage comes >>>>>>>> along" or similar, as if the coming along such cheap storage is an >>>>>>>> inevitability. Does anyone here see it as inevitable, and if so >>>>>>>> what
form would such storage take?
It's here already. Its called uranium, and better still, it comes >>>>>>> already charged up so there is no need for fucking windmills.
Sounds perfect, but when the nuclear power station at Hunterston, on >>>>> the Clyde, was built, storage was needed for the energy produced at
night when nobody wanted it. So the pumped storage system at Cruachan >>>>> was built as part of he project.
The Cruachan scheme was done by a nationalised electricity business, I
suspect it was an engineering decision, Now, Cruachan is owned by
Drax who
are doubling its capacity.
Engineering includes cost.
When I went round Ffestiniog they said the decision was simple -
pumped storage or another power station. Pumped storage was cheaper.
There are many quite suitable pumped storage sites in Scotland, that
haven't been exploited yet. The decision is always cost wise.
But are "they" not suggesting limiting regional distribution grids
rather than an all encompassing National Grid. The power generated in Scotland may stay in Scotland
On 07/07/2025 13:31, alan_m wrote:
On 07/07/2025 12:03, Tim+ wrote:
I have 19 kWhrs of battery and I sleep okay. liFePo batteries have a
negligible risk of immolation.
The risk of liFePo battery causing the fire may be lower but its not too
safe if it is in a house fire.
If someone stored the energy equivalent of 8 jerry can gallons of petrol
of an ICE car under their house stairs, I imagine an insurance assessor,
after a fire, would more than comment about it.
No question of domestic storage supporting the grid other than drawing
less than hitherto.
On 07/07/2025 12:03, Tim+ wrote:
I have 19 kWhrs of battery and I sleep okay. liFePo batteries have a
negligible risk of immolation.
The risk of liFePo battery causing the fire may be lower but its not too
safe if it is in a house fire.
In article <md1t1kFm9c6U2@mid.individual.net>,
alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On 07/07/2025 12:03, Tim+ wrote:
I have 19 kWhrs of battery and I sleep okay. liFePo batteries have a
negligible risk of immolation.
The risk of liFePo battery causing the fire may be lower but its not too
safe if it is in a house fire.
the battery, involved with my solar panels, is mountef on the ouside of the house. It was a "two man lift" - I have no ideal how it would become a loft fitment.
On 07/07/2025 13:31, alan_m wrote:
On 07/07/2025 12:03, Tim+ wrote:
I have 19 kWhrs of battery and I sleep okay. liFePo batteries have a
negligible risk of immolation.
The risk of liFePo battery causing the fire may be lower but its not too
safe if it is in a house fire.
If someone stored the energy equivalent of 8 jerry can gallons of petrol
of an ICE car under their house stairs, I imagine an insurance assessor,
after a fire, would more than comment about it.
charles wrote:be installed in voids, roof spaces, or lofts ...
the battery, involved with my solar panels, is mountef on the ouside of the >> house. It was a "two man lift" - I have no ideal how it would become a loft >> fitment.>Two men + muscles.BSI PAS 63100:2024 states that home battery storage systems should not
Tim+ wrote:
charles wrote:be installed in voids, roof spaces, or lofts ...
the battery, involved with my solar panels, is mountef on the ouside of the >>> house. It was a "two man lift" - I have no ideal how it would become a loft >>> fitment.>Two men + muscles.BSI PAS 63100:2024 states that home battery storage systems should not
N_Cook <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
On 07/07/2025 13:31, alan_m wrote:
On 07/07/2025 12:03, Tim+ wrote:
I have 19 kWhrs of battery and I sleep okay. liFePo batteries have a
negligible risk of immolation.
The risk of liFePo battery causing the fire may be lower but its not too >>> safe if it is in a house fire.
If someone stored the energy equivalent of 8 jerry can gallons of petrol
of an ICE car under their house stairs, I imagine an insurance assessor,
after a fire, would more than comment about it.
My home insurers were entirely unconcerned by my house battery in my loft.
Tim
Tim+ wrote:
charles wrote:be installed in voids, roof spaces, or lofts ...
the battery, involved with my solar panels, is mountef on the ousideTwo men + muscles.BSI PAS 63100:2024 states that home battery storage
of the
house. It was a "two man lift" - I have no ideal how it would become
a loft
fitment.>
systems should not
On 07/07/2025 07:16, alan_m wrote:
On 06/07/2025 22:30, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/07/2025 16:25, Tim Streater wrote:
RJH and others
RJH?
have a habit of saying "until cheap storage comes along" or
similar, as if the coming along such cheap storage is an
inevitability. Does
anyone here see it as inevitable, and if so what form would such
storage take?
Storage is trivial on a small scale, but gets significantly more
complex and expensive at the power station kind of level. At grid
scale it currently looks like it is cloud Cuckoo land!
A lot of the storage problem could achieved by every domestic dwelling
in the UK having a 30KWh* battery.
Plus many of the home storage solutions are not setup for off grid
operation and are "grid tied" - which means without a mains supply you
can't make use of your stored energy.
Also grid tied storage does nothing to aid grid stability as there is no spinning mass to resist unexpected load changes.
On 07/07/2025 19:17, Tim+ wrote:
N_Cook <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
On 07/07/2025 13:31, alan_m wrote:
On 07/07/2025 12:03, Tim+ wrote:
I have 19 kWhrs of battery and I sleep okay. liFePo batteries have a >>>>> negligible risk of immolation.
The risk of liFePo battery causing the fire may be lower but its not too >>>> safe if it is in a house fire.
If someone stored the energy equivalent of 8 jerry can gallons of petrol >>> of an ICE car under their house stairs, I imagine an insurance assessor, >>> after a fire, would more than comment about it.
My home insurers were entirely unconcerned by my house battery in my loft. >>
Tim
They may be now.....
Andy Burns wrote:I think it's more strongly worded than that ...
BSI PAS 63100:2024
As I understand it, a recommendation, not a rule. You can still have one installed in your loft if you want.
On 07/07/2025 19:23, Andy Burns wrote:
Tim+ wrote:
charles wrote:be installed in voids, roof spaces, or lofts ...
the battery, involved with my solar panels, is mountef on the ousideTwo men + muscles.BSI PAS 63100:2024 states that home battery storage
of the
house. It was a "two man lift" - I have no ideal how it would become
a loft
fitment.>
systems should not
or within 1 meter of a window or a exterior door.
In article <md2i0pFpme7U1@mid.individual.net>,
alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On 07/07/2025 19:23, Andy Burns wrote:
Tim+ wrote:
charles wrote:be installed in voids, roof spaces, or lofts ...
the battery, involved with my solar panels, is mountef on the ouside >>>>> of theTwo men + muscles.BSI PAS 63100:2024 states that home battery storage
house. It was a "two man lift" - I have no ideal how it would become >>>>> a loft
fitment.>
systems should not
Muscles are no use if the two men can't be togther due to restricted access.
Surely that depends upon if the home to grid feed is intelligent.
AIUI, home batteries could provide grid stability. Not saying they do,
just that they could.
N_Cook wrote:
No such super-high energy density battery for me thank you, how many
people would willingly have an unexploded incendiary bomb sitting at the
heart of their house?
Didn't I hear that the rules may change to prohibit batteries
over a certain size within premises? Someone pointed out that
would make it difficult to put your EV in the garage
Chris
On 07/07/2025 14:49, Timatmarford wrote:
No question of domestic storage supporting the grid other than drawing
less than hitherto.
Statement or question Tim?
During energy saving events it is possible, and done, to discharge the
home battery for an hour at peak time and earn money for the export at
an enhanced rate.
Tim+ wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:I think it's more strongly worded than that ...
BSI PAS 63100:2024
As I understand it, a recommendation, not a rule. You can still have one
installed in your loft if you want.
6.5.5 Batteries shall not be installed in any of the following locations
A-F blah, blah
G voids, roof spaces or lofts
In MoSCoW grading where does "shall not" fit between "should not" and
"must not"?
Tim+ wrote:
charles wrote:be installed in voids, roof spaces, or lofts ...
the battery, involved with my solar panels, is mountef on the ouside of the >>> house. It was a "two man lift" - I have no ideal how it would become a loft >>> fitment.>Two men + muscles.BSI PAS 63100:2024 states that home battery storage systems
should not
On 07/07/2025 07:16, alan_m wrote:
On 06/07/2025 22:30, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/07/2025 16:25, Tim Streater wrote:
RJH and others
RJH?
have a habit of saying "until cheap storage comes along" or
similar, as if the coming along such cheap storage is an
inevitability. Does
anyone here see it as inevitable, and if so what form would such
storage take?
Storage is trivial on a small scale, but gets significantly more
complex and expensive at the power station kind of level. At grid
scale it currently looks like it is cloud Cuckoo land!
A lot of the storage problem could achieved by every domestic dwelling
in the UK having a 30KWh* battery. It would only be an up front cost of
around £600 billion. :) This ignores industry and commercial storage. >>
*This assumes that 60% of our generation capacity falls off the cliff
for a week when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine. Average
household electricity usage for a week = 56kWh, 60% = 33kWh.
Assumption 2: £7.5k per 10kWh battery capacity, including installation.
This also is before any consideration that a household may increase its
electricity usage because of switching to ASHPs and EVs.
You had the ideal opportunity to use that marvelous zeigeist word dunkelflaute
I was curious how local power disconnections are managed safely.
On 7 Jul 2025 at 20:17:43 BST, Andy Burns wrote:
Tim+ wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:I think it's more strongly worded than that ...
BSI PAS 63100:2024
As I understand it, a recommendation, not a rule. You can still have one >>> installed in your loft if you want.
6.5.5 Batteries shall not be installed in any of the following locations
A-F blah, blah
G voids, roof spaces or lofts
In MoSCoW grading where does "shall not" fit between "should not" and
"must not"?
I don't think it can be interpretted as anything other than 'must not'. Not the cleverest of wording though . . .
On Mon, 7/7/2025 8:08 AM, Chris J Dixon wrote:
N_Cook wrote:
No such super-high energy density battery for me thank you, how many
people would willingly have an unexploded incendiary bomb sitting at the >>> heart of their house?
Didn't I hear that the rules may change to prohibit batteries
over a certain size within premises? Someone pointed out that
would make it difficult to put your EV in the garage
Chris
We will fix the batteries, eventually.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_battery
"Toyota was granted 8274 solid-battery patents between 2020 and 2023"
That's to give some idea what kind of money is behind batteries.
Paul
Timatmarford wrote:
I was curious how local power disconnections are managed safely.
Whether it's solar, or a battery, to export it has to go via an
inverter. If the inverter senses the grid has gone away, it shuts off
to avoid killing the repair workers!
Some hybrid inverters can maintain supply from the battery to an
isolated "internal" circuit, while shut off from the mains.
On 07/07/2025 12:51, John Rumm wrote:
On 07/07/2025 07:16, alan_m wrote:
*This assumes that 60% of our generation capacity falls off the cliff
for a week when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine.
Average household electricity usage for a week = 56kWh, 60% = 33kWh.
Assumption 2: £7.5k per 10kWh battery capacity, including installation. >>> This also is before any consideration that a household may increase
its electricity usage because of switching to ASHPs and EVs.
Indeed, transport and space heating would probably add another 30 -
40% demand on the grid.
Based on the notional averages. The average domestic electric usage is 2,700kWh/year the average domestic usage of gas is 11,700kWh. A house switching from gas central heating to a ASHP running at a high COP would
be using an additional 3,000kWh/year. Add an EV at 5 miles per kWh and
5k miles/year and that's another 1000 kWh/year
The average household may go from around 2700kWh/year to 6,700kWh/year,
so a bit more than 40%.
It may be higher than x2+ as ASHP may not have a COP of 4 for some
periods and many households have more than one car.
With central heating usually only fully operational for the colder
months a yearly average may be misleading.
Winter months current average electric usage = 225kWh/month, in future
approx 1000kWh/month. This a 4x the current demand.
"The word "shall" originates from the Old English word "sceal," which
meant "I owe," "I must," or "I am obligated." It evolved from the Proto- Germanic *skul- and is related to other Germanic words expressing
obligation or debt. Over time, its meaning *shifted to include the
expression of simple futurity*"
I.e. no conditional, debt long since paid, it SHALL BE! No question.
They may be now.....
Prohibited Locations:
Recommended, batteries should not be installed in:
Rooms intended for sleeping.
Protected escape routes (including landings, staircases, and corridors). Firefighting lobbies, shafts, or staircases.
Storage cupboards, enclosures, or spaces opening into sleeping rooms. Outdoors within 1 meter of escape routes, windows, doors, or ventilation ports (unless in a suitable enclosure).
Voids, roof spaces, or lofts.
Cellars or basements without outside access.
Source PAS 63100:2024
Free from BSI although it seems to want user/password
<https://knowledge.bsigroup.com/products/electrical-installations- protection-against-fire-of-battery-energy-storage-systems-for-use-in- dwellings-specification>
or
https://tinyurl.com/3xp3uuv4
Timatmarford wrote:
I was curious how local power disconnections are managed safely.
Whether it's solar, or a battery, to export it has to go via an
inverter. If the inverter senses the grid has gone away, it shuts off
to avoid killing the repair workers!
Some hybrid inverters can maintain supply from the battery to an
isolated "internal" circuit, while shut off from the mains.
On 08/07/2025 09:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
"The word "shall" originates from the Old English word "sceal," which
meant "I owe," "I must," or "I am obligated." It evolved from the
Proto- Germanic *skul- and is related to other Germanic words
expressing obligation or debt. Over time, its meaning *shifted to
include the expression of simple futurity*"
I.e. no conditional, debt long since paid, it SHALL BE! No question.
In contracts the words shall, should etc. are often explicitly defined
as to their meaning within the contract.
Andy Burns wrote:Can't remember who mentioned that, they may have been referring to a
Some hybrid inverters can maintain supply from the battery to an
isolated "internal" circuit, while shut off from the mains.
OK Andy. I was a bit puzzled by the *break before make* isolator
mentioned up-thread.
On 08/07/2025 09:12, Andy Burns wrote:
Timatmarford wrote:
I was curious how local power disconnections are managed safely.
Whether it's solar, or a battery, to export it has to go via an
inverter. If the inverter senses the grid has gone away, it shuts off
to avoid killing the repair workers!
Some hybrid inverters can maintain supply from the battery to an
isolated "internal" circuit, while shut off from the mains.
OK Andy. I was a bit puzzled by the *break before make* isolator
mentioned up-thread.
It's not enough by a factor of ten.
Toyota might, in time get to a 450 mile 5 minute recharge battery, but
that wont make windmills effective.
Timatmarford <tim@marford.uk.com> wrote:
On 08/07/2025 09:12, Andy Burns wrote:
Timatmarford wrote:
I was curious how local power disconnections are managed safely.
Whether it's solar, or a battery, to export it has to go via an
inverter. If the inverter senses the grid has gone away, it shuts off
to avoid killing the repair workers!
Some hybrid inverters can maintain supply from the battery to an
isolated "internal" circuit, while shut off from the mains.
OK Andy. I was a bit puzzled by the *break before make* isolator
mentioned up-thread.
Only required if you want your batteries to power your whole house in the event of a power cut. My hybrid inverter just supplies an isolated circuit not connected to the grid.
Just as with a generator, your system mustn’t be capable of feeding back into a dead grid supply.
Timatmarford wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Some hybrid inverters can maintain supply from the battery to an
isolated "internal" circuit, while shut off from the mains.
OK Andy. I was a bit puzzled by the *break before make* isolatorCan't remember who mentioned that, they may have been referring to a
mentioned up-thread.
manual changeover switch, where the connection to mains is broken before
the connection to battery is made, probably with mechanical and
electrical interlock using a contactor ... would be less convenient to
have to go out and physically switch from mains to battery.
For example my space heating energy requirement in terms of raw kWh is 2
to 3 times my electrical consumption, Even an with ideal COP from a
heatpump it would be a significant increase in electrical demand. (and
that is before you worry about transport!)
Andy Burns wrote:Whole house, or selected circuits?
they may have been referring to a manual changeover switch
In my case, the change over happens automaticaly. and will return to 'grid' once the supply is restored.
On 08/07/2025 09:25, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
It's not enough by a factor of ten.
Toyota might, in time get to a 450 mile 5 minute recharge battery, but
that wont make windmills effective.
And still the average Euopean family car will have a range of 4 to 5
miles per kWh so how much energy would a charging station have to
provide in 5 minutes. Add a bank of such charging stations in the same place....
On 08/07/2025 09:25, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
It's not enough by a factor of ten.
Toyota might, in time get to a 450 mile 5 minute recharge battery, but that wont make windmills effective.
And still the average Euopean family car will have a range of 4 to 5 miles per kWh so how much energy would a charging station have to provide in 5 minutes. Add a bank of such charging stations in the same place....
charles wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
they may have been referring to a manual changeover switch
In my case, the change over happens automaticaly. and will return toWhole house, or selected circuits?
'grid' once the supply is restored.
On Tue, 7/8/2025 7:08 AM, alan_m wrote:
On 08/07/2025 09:25, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
It's not enough by a factor of ten.
Toyota might, in time get to a 450 mile 5 minute recharge battery, but that wont make windmills effective.
And still the average Euopean family car will have a range of 4 to 5 miles per kWh so how much energy would a charging station have to provide in 5 minutes. Add a bank of such charging stations in the same place....
One idea they are considering, is the usage of a battery at the station
as a "smoothing reservoir". With the intention of providing a higher
peak current, then after the auto is gone from the pad, the battery
will recharge at a slower rate to refill itself.
And one of the reasons this is going to work, is that battery
will be a different type than the one in the auto. It will also
be a different kind of battery from the one in the picture below.
One idea they are considering, is the usage of a battery at the station
as a "smoothing reservoir". With the intention of providing a higher
peak current, then after the auto is gone from the pad, the battery
will recharge at a slower rate to refill itself.
That is not going to work well at a UK motorway services where they may
need a couple of dozen such chargers with little time between each car requiring charging.
When heavy goods vehicles (HGV) become electric the requirement for
large amounts of energy will increase. Where as car may be 1kWh for 5
miles a HGV is more like 1kWh for 1 mile.
Everywhere you look the infrastructure to support net zero is becoming a
lot more complex and expensive, and possibly far from net zero for the lifetime of all this extra equipment/infrastructure.
And one of the reasons this is going to work, is that battery
will be a different type than the one in the auto. It will also
be a different kind of battery from the one in the picture below.
The equipment at the charging station may not be the overall problem.
The National Grid needs a major upgrade to support all the future solar
and wind farms.
Domestic usage of electricity is set to increase by at least 2x if
around 20 million homes are going to switch from Natural Gas or oil
central heating to "clean" electric heating, and we all switch from ICE vehicles to EVs.
On 8 Jul 2025 at 19:25:38 BST, alan_m wrote:
It's not going to be a sudden break, though. 'Net zero' sounds, and is presented as, some sort of countdown, when suddenly everything kicks in. Two things:
Firstly, As heat pumps and EVs increase, so will electricity supply. If it doesn't, and demand outstrips supply, then yes, the use of electricity (buying
EVs, electric furnaces, etc.) might have to be scaled back until things stabilise.
I think that's a possibility, if only because patterns of use and supply from renewables are hard (but not impossible) to predict. But it's not inevitable, and planning is needed. Now.
Secondly, people aren't (that) stupid, and plan their buying and use decisions
around what's available. EV demand for example will hit the buffers when charging for various uses (commercial and residential) reaches capacity.
That'll be when it becomes inconvenient (on site not possible, huge queues at public charging points), or too expensive. We're a way from that at the moment, but is I think the present defining variable of mass EV adoption.
I would have thought that's a very conservative estimate on current patterns of consumption. In any event, production has to increase, and/or consumption has to decrease. On the latter, retrofit. And as I say, plan.
In the run up to the General election Labour promised up to £1,400 off
the annual household (energy) bill by 2030 because "wind and solar were cheaper than gas". This promise has now been watered down to a target
figure of £300, I wonder why?
Back in the real world, is electricity consumption going fall - not
likely. What are we going to retrofit to decrease electric consumption?
On 8 Jul 2025 at 19:25:38 BST, alan_m wrote:
One idea they are considering, is the usage of a battery at the station
as a "smoothing reservoir". With the intention of providing a higher
peak current, then after the auto is gone from the pad, the battery
will recharge at a slower rate to refill itself.
That is not going to work well at a UK motorway services where they may
need a couple of dozen such chargers with little time between each car
requiring charging.
When heavy goods vehicles (HGV) become electric the requirement for
large amounts of energy will increase. Where as car may be 1kWh for 5
miles a HGV is more like 1kWh for 1 mile.
Everywhere you look the infrastructure to support net zero is becoming a
lot more complex and expensive, and possibly far from net zero for the
lifetime of all this extra equipment/infrastructure.
It's not going to be a sudden break, though. 'Net zero' sounds, and is presented as, some sort of countdown, when suddenly everything kicks in. Two things:
Firstly, As heat pumps and EVs increase, so will electricity supply. If it doesn't, and demand outstrips supply, then yes, the use of electricity (buying
EVs, electric furnaces, etc.) might have to be scaled back until things stabilise.
I think that's a possibility, if only because patterns of use and supply from renewables are hard (but not impossible) to predict. But it's not inevitable, and planning is needed. Now.
Secondly, people aren't (that) stupid, and plan their buying and use decisions
around what's available. EV demand for example will hit the buffers when charging for various uses (commercial and residential) reaches capacity. That'll be when it becomes inconvenient (on site not possible, huge queues at public charging points), or too expensive. We're a way from that at the moment, but is I think the present defining variable of mass EV adoption.
And one of the reasons this is going to work, is that battery
will be a different type than the one in the auto. It will also
be a different kind of battery from the one in the picture below.
The equipment at the charging station may not be the overall problem.
The National Grid needs a major upgrade to support all the future solar
and wind farms.
Domestic usage of electricity is set to increase by at least 2x if
around 20 million homes are going to switch from Natural Gas or oil
central heating to "clean" electric heating, and we all switch from ICE
vehicles to EVs.
I would have thought that's a very conservative estimate on current patterns of consumption. In any event, production has to increase, and/or consumption has to decrease. On the latter, retrofit. And as I say, plan.
On 9 Jul 2025 at 09:43:55 BST, alan_m wrote:
Back in the real world, is electricity consumption going fall - not
likely. What are we going to retrofit to decrease electric
consumption?
Just on that point, retrofit homes and businesses with insulation and
(if needed) ventilation to offset the increase in ASHP electricity consumption.
Yes, electricity consumption will increase, but not by
as much.
On Wed, 9 Jul 2025 13:55:29 -0000 (UTC)
RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
On 9 Jul 2025 at 09:43:55 BST, alan_m wrote:
Back in the real world, is electricity consumption going fall - not
likely. What are we going to retrofit to decrease electric
consumption?
Just on that point, retrofit homes and businesses with insulation and
(if needed) ventilation to offset the increase in ASHP electricity
consumption.
So much for 'free' renewables.
Yes, electricity consumption will increase, but not by
as much.
Are we assuming that the AI data centres, which will be vital for
proper government, will have their own private nuclear power stations
built?
On 9 Jul 2025 at 09:43:55 BST, alan_m wrote:Do you REALLY think any commercial building and as many homes as can
Back in the real world, is electricity consumption going fall - not
likely. What are we going to retrofit to decrease electric consumption?
Just on that point, retrofit homes and businesses with insulation and (if needed) ventilation to offset the increase in ASHP electricity consumption. Yes, electricity consumption will increase, but not by as much.
For some, it's the sheer scale of the problem. The populous countries can never
really address the transition. It would cost too much.
On 09/07/2025 14:55, RJH wrote:
On 9 Jul 2025 at 09:43:55 BST, alan_m wrote:Do you REALLY think any commercial building and as many homes as can
Back in the real world, is electricity consumption going fall - not
likely. What are we going to retrofit to decrease electric consumption?
Just on that point, retrofit homes and businesses with insulation and (if
needed) ventilation to offset the increase in ASHP electricity consumption. >> Yes, electricity consumption will increase, but not by as much.
take it are NOT insulated up yo the hilt?
That boat sailed in 2000
RJH and others have a habit of saying "until cheap storage comes along" or similar, as if the coming along such cheap storage is an inevitability. Does anyone here see it as inevitable, and if so what form would such storage take?
On 06/07/2025 16:25, Tim Streater wrote:
RJH and others have a habit of saying "until cheap storage comes
along" or
similar, as if the coming along such cheap storage is an
inevitability. Does
anyone here see it as inevitable, and if so what form would such
storage take?
I thought Hydrogen was to be the great energy storage medium while
replacing petrol into the bargain. Still seems a bit theoretical.
TW
On 7/10/25 15:47, TimW wrote:
On 06/07/2025 16:25, Tim Streater wrote:
RJH and others have a habit of saying "until cheap storage comes
along" or
similar, as if the coming along such cheap storage is an
inevitability. Does
anyone here see it as inevitable, and if so what form would such
storage take?
I thought Hydrogen was to be the great energy storage medium while replacing petrol into the bargain. Still seems a bit theoretical.
TW
Last year's solution, and maybe next year's, but not this year's.
(Apparently there are natural underground reserves of hydrogen.)
On Thu, 10 Jul 2025 18:13:05 +0100
Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> wrote:
On 7/10/25 15:47, TimW wrote:
On 06/07/2025 16:25, Tim Streater wrote:
RJH and others have a habit of saying "until cheap storage comes
along" or
similar, as if the coming along such cheap storage is an
inevitability. Does
anyone here see it as inevitable, and if so what form would such
storage take?
I thought Hydrogen was to be the great energy storage medium while
replacing petrol into the bargain. Still seems a bit theoretical.
Last year's solution, and maybe next year's, but not this year's.
(Apparently there are natural underground reserves of hydrogen.)
Not too surprising, if true. We used to cook on gas boiled out of coal,
about half of which was hydrogen. Hydrogen being what it is, it is
reasonable to believe there was once more hydrogen in the coal, and some leaked away. There might well be natural rock dome formations which
might capture it, as it tried to travel ever upward.
+1
Not too surprising, if true. We used to cook on gas boiled out of coal,
about half of which was hydrogen. Hydrogen being what it is, it is
reasonable to believe there was once more hydrogen in the coal, and some
leaked away. There might well be natural rock dome formations which
might capture it, as it tried to travel ever upward.
That's not the way town/coal gas is made.
The only flammable gas *in* the coal is methane. The hydrogen is
produced by passing steam through red hot coke, resulting in hydrogen
and carbon monoxide.
That's not the way town/coal gas is made.
The only flammable gas *in* the coal is methane. The hydrogen is
produced by passing steam through red hot coke, resulting in hydrogen
and carbon monoxide.
Yes we are still a long way off being able to provide all our
electricity needs but we have come a long way in the 12 years I have had solar PV.
The car charging is a bit different as most domestic charging take
place during off peak periods when AIUI wind turbines are often
curtailed from lack of demand. My daughter has only used charging
stations a handful of times in the last 10,000 miles and then only while
on holiday.
My space heating is renewable all the time I can put the effort in.
On 09/07/2025 14:27, Paul wrote:
For some, it's the sheer scale of the problem. The populous countries can >never
really address the transition. It would cost too much.
I see too many people who are not aware of the potential problems and if
the existing energy policies are continued how much backup is required
to make it work reliably.
Wind is unreliable so build more and more wind turbines as the wind must
blow somewhere. Unless you have near 100% of the number of wind
turbines to supply the country's needs at that particular location on
the day the wind does blow it's not a solution.
You have the people who think by generation more solar than they use in
a year is part of the solution. Unfortunately they are not storing the
excess they generate in the summer months for use in the winter months.
On 08/07/2025 12:36, ajh wrote:
Yes we are still a long way off being able to provide all our
electricity needs but we have come a long way in the 12 years I have
had solar PV.
The car charging is a bit different as most domestic charging take
place during off peak periods when AIUI wind turbines are often
curtailed from lack of demand. My daughter has only used charging
stations a handful of times in the last 10,000 miles and then only
while on holiday.
My space heating is renewable all the time I can put the effort in.
Go and look at the figures for January.
There's ***** all sunlight anyway at that time of year, and a couple of
times we had windless days too.
Earlier today I read that the Govt have decided to put a whole load of plutonium in deep storage. Why aren't they using it for reactors?
Andy
On 11/07/2025 16:27, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 08/07/2025 12:36, ajh wrote:We dont have any geared to use it
Yes we are still a long way off being able to provide all our
electricity needs but we have come a long way in the 12 years I have
had solar PV.
The car charging is a bit different as most domestic charging take
place during off peak periods when AIUI wind turbines are often
curtailed from lack of demand. My daughter has only used charging
stations a handful of times in the last 10,000 miles and then only
while on holiday.
My space heating is renewable all the time I can put the effort in.
Go and look at the figures for January.
There's ***** all sunlight anyway at that time of year, and a couple of
times we had windless days too.
Earlier today I read that the Govt have decided to put a whole load of
plutonium in deep storage. Why aren't they using it for reactors?
Andy
In article <md7eh3Fl8k4U1@mid.individual.net>, alan_m ><junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> scribeth thus
On 09/07/2025 14:27, Paul wrote:
For some, it's the sheer scale of the problem. The populous countries can >>never
really address the transition. It would cost too much.
I see too many people who are not aware of the potential problems and if >>the existing energy policies are continued how much backup is required
to make it work reliably.
Wind is unreliable so build more and more wind turbines as the wind must >>blow somewhere. Unless you have near 100% of the number of wind
turbines to supply the country's needs at that particular location on
the day the wind does blow it's not a solution.
Jesus Christ we've got one of these idiot greenies down the road from us
shes quite adamant that the bloody wind will always be blowing from
somewhere even if its just a couple of turbines!
Shes the sort of silly bugger that has the ear of some local councillors
who think green is great nothing else matters!..
And Nuclear is the most dangerous power there is ever and is the most >polluting!
You have the people who think by generation more solar than they use in
a year is part of the solution. Unfortunately they are not storing the >>excess they generate in the summer months for use in the winter months.
How can you do that in reality you can't!..
On Fri, 11 Jul 2025 19:02:33 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 11/07/2025 16:27, Vir Campestris wrote:
We dont have any geared to use it
Earlier today I read that the Govt have decided to put a whole load of
plutonium in deep storage. Why aren't they using it for reactors?
Plutonium is only used in weapons, Modern reactors avoid it like the
plague because of the extreme toxicity of any leakage.
On 08/07/2025 12:36, ajh wrote:
Yes we are still a long way off being able to provide all our
electricity needs but we have come a long way in the 12 years I have had
solar PV.
The car charging is a bit different as most domestic charging take
place during off peak periods when AIUI wind turbines are often
curtailed from lack of demand. My daughter has only used charging
stations a handful of times in the last 10,000 miles and then only while
on holiday.
My space heating is renewable all the time I can put the effort in.
Go and look at the figures for January.
There's ***** all sunlight anyway at that time of year, and a couple of
times we had windless days too.
On 11 Jul 2025 at 16:27:53 BST, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 08/07/2025 12:36, ajh wrote:
Yes we are still a long way off being able to provide all our
electricity needs but we have come a long way in the 12 years I have had >>> solar PV.
The car charging is a bit different as most domestic charging take
place during off peak periods when AIUI wind turbines are often
curtailed from lack of demand. My daughter has only used charging
stations a handful of times in the last 10,000 miles and then only while >>> on holiday.
My space heating is renewable all the time I can put the effort in.
Go and look at the figures for January.
There's ***** all sunlight anyway at that time of year, and a couple of
times we had windless days too.
December the lowest generating month on my home solar - 10% of the highest month, 20% of the average, met 25% of my consumption. So there's still something . . .
On 12/07/2025 06:36, RJH wrote:
On 11 Jul 2025 at 16:27:53 BST, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 08/07/2025 12:36, ajh wrote:
Yes we are still a long way off being able to provide all our
electricity needs but we have come a long way in the 12 years I have
had
solar PV.
The car charging is a bit different as most domestic charging take
place during off peak periods when AIUI wind turbines are often
curtailed from lack of demand. My daughter has only used charging
stations a handful of times in the last 10,000 miles and then only
while
on holiday.
My space heating is renewable all the time I can put the effort in.
Go and look at the figures for January.
There's ***** all sunlight anyway at that time of year, and a couple of
times we had windless days too.
December the lowest generating month on my home solar - 10% of the
highest
month, 20% of the average, met 25% of my consumption. So there's still
something . . .
That is still a massive reduction with the amount of solar planned to be
on the grid. In some respects the only saving grace is that it is
roughly predictable and the reduction will happen at the same time of year.
On 11 Jul 2025 at 16:27:53 BST, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 08/07/2025 12:36, ajh wrote:
Yes we are still a long way off being able to provide all our
electricity needs but we have come a long way in the 12 years I have had >>> solar PV.
The car charging is a bit different as most domestic charging take
place during off peak periods when AIUI wind turbines are often
curtailed from lack of demand. My daughter has only used charging
stations a handful of times in the last 10,000 miles and then only while >>> on holiday.
My space heating is renewable all the time I can put the effort in.
Go and look at the figures for January.
There's ***** all sunlight anyway at that time of year, and a couple of
times we had windless days too.
December the lowest generating month on my home solar - 10% of the highest month, 20% of the average, met 25% of my consumption. So there's still something . . .
On 7/12/25 08:45, alan_m wrote:
On 12/07/2025 06:36, RJH wrote:How does seasonal predictability help?
On 11 Jul 2025 at 16:27:53 BST, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 08/07/2025 12:36, ajh wrote:
Yes we are still a long way off being able to provide all our
electricity needs but we have come a long way in the 12 years I
have had
solar PV.
The car charging is a bit different as most domestic charging take >>>>> place during off peak periods when AIUI wind turbines are often
curtailed from lack of demand. My daughter has only used charging
stations a handful of times in the last 10,000 miles and then only
while
on holiday.
My space heating is renewable all the time I can put the effort in.
Go and look at the figures for January.
There's ***** all sunlight anyway at that time of year, and a couple of >>>> times we had windless days too.
December the lowest generating month on my home solar - 10% of the
highest
month, 20% of the average, met 25% of my consumption. So there's still
something . . .
That is still a massive reduction with the amount of solar planned to
be on the grid. In some respects the only saving grace is that it is
roughly predictable and the reduction will happen at the same time of
year.
On 12/07/2025 09:28, Pancho wrote:
On 7/12/25 08:45, alan_m wrote:
On 12/07/2025 06:36, RJH wrote:How does seasonal predictability help?
On 11 Jul 2025 at 16:27:53 BST, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 08/07/2025 12:36, ajh wrote:
Yes we are still a long way off being able to provide all ourGo and look at the figures for January.
electricity needs but we have come a long way in the 12 years I
have had
solar PV.
The car charging is a bit different as most domestic charging take >>>>>> place during off peak periods when AIUI wind turbines are often
curtailed from lack of demand. My daughter has only used charging
stations a handful of times in the last 10,000 miles and then only >>>>>> while
on holiday.
My space heating is renewable all the time I can put the effort in. >>>>>
There's ***** all sunlight anyway at that time of year, and a
couple of
times we had windless days too.
December the lowest generating month on my home solar - 10% of the
highest
month, 20% of the average, met 25% of my consumption. So there's still >>>> something . . .
That is still a massive reduction with the amount of solar planned to
be on the grid. In some respects the only saving grace is that it is
roughly predictable and the reduction will happen at the same time of
year.
By identifying that solar is somewhat useless in winter so it might as
well be ignored for a couple of months and all the generation for that
period has to come from other sources.
It doesn't help with the problems of a intermittent supply for the grid.
Plutonium is only used in weapons, Modern reactors avoid it like theBullshit.
plague because of the extreme toxicity of any leakage.
Early powerEveryone knew they wer making weapons grade material.
reactors were designed to create weapons plutonium with electricity generation as a side product to convince the public that they were
civil generators.
Inhale the tiniest amount of plutonium = slow death.
On 7/12/25 08:45, alan_m wrote:It slightly reduces wear and tear on the gas power stations that are
On 12/07/2025 06:36, RJH wrote:How does seasonal predictability help?
On 11 Jul 2025 at 16:27:53 BST, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 08/07/2025 12:36, ajh wrote:
Yes we are still a long way off being able to provide all our
electricity needs but we have come a long way in the 12 years I
have had
solar PV.
The car charging is a bit different as most domestic charging take >>>>> place during off peak periods when AIUI wind turbines are often
curtailed from lack of demand. My daughter has only used charging
stations a handful of times in the last 10,000 miles and then only
while
on holiday.
My space heating is renewable all the time I can put the effort in.
Go and look at the figures for January.
There's ***** all sunlight anyway at that time of year, and a couple of >>>> times we had windless days too.
December the lowest generating month on my home solar - 10% of the
highest
month, 20% of the average, met 25% of my consumption. So there's still
something . . .
That is still a massive reduction with the amount of solar planned to
be on the grid. In some respects the only saving grace is that it is
roughly predictable and the reduction will happen at the same time of
year.
On 7/12/25 09:38, alan_m wrote:
On 12/07/2025 09:28, Pancho wrote:
On 7/12/25 08:45, alan_m wrote:
On 12/07/2025 06:36, RJH wrote:How does seasonal predictability help?
On 11 Jul 2025 at 16:27:53 BST, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 08/07/2025 12:36, ajh wrote:
Yes we are still a long way off being able to provide all ourGo and look at the figures for January.
electricity needs but we have come a long way in the 12 years I
have had
solar PV.
The car charging is a bit different as most domestic charging take >>>>>>> place during off peak periods when AIUI wind turbines are often
curtailed from lack of demand. My daughter has only used charging >>>>>>> stations a handful of times in the last 10,000 miles and then
only while
on holiday.
My space heating is renewable all the time I can put the effort in. >>>>>>
There's ***** all sunlight anyway at that time of year, and a
couple of
times we had windless days too.
December the lowest generating month on my home solar - 10% of the
highest
month, 20% of the average, met 25% of my consumption. So there's still >>>>> something . . .
That is still a massive reduction with the amount of solar planned
to be on the grid. In some respects the only saving grace is that
it is roughly predictable and the reduction will happen at the same
time of year.
By identifying that solar is somewhat useless in winter so it might as
well be ignored for a couple of months and all the generation for that
period has to come from other sources.
It doesn't help with the problems of a intermittent supply for the grid.
But what other sources? We don't have a (CO2 neutral) source that
benefits from having a few months notice that it will be needed. Even
CO2 generators take less than a day to start.
Short term intermittency is easier to handle than a seasonal power deficit.In the end they are the same, because all we have to full the gap is gas.
On 12/07/2025 09:28, Pancho wrote:
On 7/12/25 08:45, alan_m wrote:
On 12/07/2025 06:36, RJH wrote:How does seasonal predictability help?
On 11 Jul 2025 at 16:27:53 BST, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 08/07/2025 12:36, ajh wrote:
Yes we are still a long way off being able to provide all ourGo and look at the figures for January.
electricity needs but we have come a long way in the 12 years I
have had
solar PV.
The car charging is a bit different as most domestic charging take >>>>>> place during off peak periods when AIUI wind turbines are often
curtailed from lack of demand. My daughter has only used charging
stations a handful of times in the last 10,000 miles and then only >>>>>> while
on holiday.
My space heating is renewable all the time I can put the effort in. >>>>>
There's ***** all sunlight anyway at that time of year, and a couple of >>>>> times we had windless days too.
December the lowest generating month on my home solar - 10% of the
highest
month, 20% of the average, met 25% of my consumption. So there's still >>>> something . . .
That is still a massive reduction with the amount of solar planned to
be on the grid. In some respects the only saving grace is that it is
roughly predictable and the reduction will happen at the same time of
year.
By identifying that solar is somewhat useless
in winter so it might as
well be ignored for a couple of months and all the generation for that
period has to come from other sources.
It doesn't help with the problems of a intermittent supply for the grid.
On 12/07/2025 09:28, Pancho wrote:
On 7/12/25 08:45, alan_m wrote:
On 12/07/2025 06:36, RJH wrote:How does seasonal predictability help?
On 11 Jul 2025 at 16:27:53 BST, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 08/07/2025 12:36, ajh wrote:
Yes we are still a long way off being able to provide all ourGo and look at the figures for January.
electricity needs but we have come a long way in the 12 years I
have had
solar PV.
The car charging is a bit different as most domestic charging take >>>>>> place during off peak periods when AIUI wind turbines are often
curtailed from lack of demand. My daughter has only used charging
stations a handful of times in the last 10,000 miles and then only >>>>>> while
on holiday.
My space heating is renewable all the time I can put the effort in. >>>>>
There's ***** all sunlight anyway at that time of year, and a
couple of
times we had windless days too.
December the lowest generating month on my home solar - 10% of the
highest
month, 20% of the average, met 25% of my consumption. So there's still >>>> something . . .
That is still a massive reduction with the amount of solar planned to
be on the grid. In some respects the only saving grace is that it is
roughly predictable and the reduction will happen at the same time of
year.
By identifying that solar is somewhat useless in winter so it might as
well be ignored for a couple of months and all the generation for that
period has to come from other sources.
It doesn't help with the problems of a intermittent supply for the grid.
On 11 Jul 2025 at 16:27:53 BST, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 08/07/2025 12:36, ajh wrote:
Yes we are still a long way off being able to provide all our
electricity needs but we have come a long way in the 12 years I have had >>> solar PV.
The car charging is a bit different as most domestic charging take
place during off peak periods when AIUI wind turbines are often
curtailed from lack of demand. My daughter has only used charging
stations a handful of times in the last 10,000 miles and then only while >>> on holiday.
My space heating is renewable all the time I can put the effort in.
Go and look at the figures for January.
There's ***** all sunlight anyway at that time of year, and a couple of
times we had windless days too.
December the lowest generating month on my home solar - 10% of the highest month, 20% of the average, met 25% of my consumption. So there's still something . . .
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