I ordered some sweets from Amazon which were delivered today by a driver
who just dumped them on the doorstep, I didn't realise they had been delivered until I got the email telling me. It's cold so probably no
damage but in summer I had some sweets delivered that had turned into a congealed mess by the time I realised that they had been dumped on the doorstep (I returned those).
What is the legal position if somebody tampers with the package or the
food goes off because the drive didn't bother to knock/ring?
I ordered some sweets from Amazon which were delivered today by a driver
who just dumped them on the doorstep, I didn't realise they had been delivered until I got the email telling me. It's cold so probably no
damage but in summer I had some sweets delivered that had turned into a congealed mess by the time I realised that they had been dumped on the doorstep (I returned those).
What is the legal position if somebody tampers with the package or the
food goes off because the drive didn't bother to knock/ring?
I ordered some sweets from Amazon which were delivered today by a driver
who just dumped them on the doorstep, I didn't realise they had been delivered until I got the email telling me. It's cold so probably no
damage but in summer I had some sweets delivered that had turned into a congealed mess by the time I realised that they had been dumped on the doorstep (I returned those).
What is the legal position if somebody tampers with the package or the
food goes off because the drive didn't bother to knock/ring?
On 14:22 3 Dec 2024, Jeff Gaines said:
I ordered some sweets from Amazon which were delivered today by a driver
who just dumped them on the doorstep, I didn't realise they had been
delivered until I got the email telling me. It's cold so probably no
damage but in summer I had some sweets delivered that had turned into a
congealed mess by the time I realised that they had been dumped on the
doorstep (I returned those).
What is the legal position if somebody tampers with the package or the
food goes off because the drive didn't bother to knock/ring?
Dumping on the doorstep should be a last resort for Amazon. Ideally the package is handed to the householder, and the Amazon courier may tick
his system to claim (sometimes falsely) that this was done. Amazon makes provision for alternative methods of delivery, such as leaving with a neighbour, which you can set up in advance.
In practice, if you contact Amazon customer services and explain the
item was damaged by being left outdoors they will probably just replace
it.
What is the legal position if somebody tampers with the package or the
food goes off because the drive didn't bother to knock/ring?
I have a large steel box, purpose made to accept parcels and to be
tamper proof, in my front porch. It has a pull down flap that is large
enough for the most common size of box I get things delivered in from
Amazon. The flap has a large notice, reading 'All deliveries in here
please' and 'Amazon safe place' More parcels get left in the outer
doorway of the porch, where they get wet i it is raining, than get put
into the box.
On 03/12/2024 in message <xn0ou4i554d4pqv00c@news.individual.net> Jeff
Gaines wrote:
What is the legal position if somebody tampers with the package or the
food goes off because the drive didn't bother to knock/ring?
Many thanks for the replies :-)
Nobody has covered the Russians injecting my sweets with Novichok because they were left in an accessible place with no warning.
We have an enclosed porch with a locked (when the house is empty) inner door but an unlocked outer door. So my delivery instructions - both on my Amazon account and reinforced by a notice on the door - say that all deliveries
must be left inside the porch.
Mostly, that's where they do end up. But, every now and then, something gets left on the doorstep outside the porch rather than in it. When that happens, I always make a point of raising a formal complaint with Amazon. It does get recorded on the driver's record, and if they get too many similar complaints they'll get the boot. So it's worth it, especially if other people also complain about delivery instructions not being followed.
Mark
On 03/12/2024 15:07, Pamela wrote:
On 14:22 3 Dec 2024, Jeff Gaines said:
I ordered some sweets from Amazon which were delivered today by a
driver who just dumped them on the doorstep, I didn't realise they had
been delivered until I got the email telling me. It's cold so probably
no damage but in summer I had some sweets delivered that had turned
into a congealed mess by the time I realised that they had been dumped
on the doorstep (I returned those).
What is the legal position if somebody tampers with the package or the
food goes off because the drive didn't bother to knock/ring?
Dumping on the doorstep should be a last resort for Amazon. Ideally the
package is handed to the householder, and the Amazon courier may tick
his system to claim (sometimes falsely) that this was done. Amazon
makes provision for alternative methods of delivery, such as leaving
with a neighbour, which you can set up in advance.
In practice, if you contact Amazon customer services and explain the
item was damaged by being left outdoors they will probably just replace
it.
I have a large steel box, purpose made to accept parcels and to be
tamper proof, in my front porch. It has a pull down flap that is large
enough for the most common size of box I get things delivered in from
Amazon. The flap has a large notice, reading 'All deliveries in here
please' and 'Amazon safe place' More parcels get left in the outer
doorway of the porch, where they get wet i it is raining, than get put
into the box.
Dumping a box on a doorstep and running for the hills without having
rung the doorbell / knocked on the door cannot, IMHO, be considered delivering the goods into the physical possession of the consumer.
On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 10:24:36 +0000, Simon Parker wrote:
Dumping a box on a doorstep and running for the hills without having
rung the doorbell / knocked on the door cannot, IMHO, be considered
delivering the goods into the physical possession of the consumer.
Is there a legal ruling on this ?
No disrespect, but a lawyers opinion is a lawyers opinion (as the late
John Mortimer pointed out to Monty Python).
Are there not rulings about "possession" which don't require the
possessor to be clutching the items in question ? For example when
charged with "possession" of a class A substance.
On 04/12/2024 09:27, Mark Goodge wrote:
I find that a bit surprising. No harm done, but the low-paid courier
We have an enclosed porch with a locked (when the house is empty) inner door >> but an unlocked outer door. So my delivery instructions - both on my Amazon >> account and reinforced by a notice on the door - say that all deliveries
must be left inside the porch.
Mostly, that's where they do end up. But, every now and then, something gets >> left on the doorstep outside the porch rather than in it. When that happens, >> I always make a point of raising a formal complaint with Amazon. It does get >> recorded on the driver's record, and if they get too many similar complaints >> they'll get the boot. So it's worth it, especially if other people also
complain about delivery instructions not being followed.
might be out of a job.
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 10:16:58 +0000, Clive Arthur <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:
On 04/12/2024 09:27, Mark Goodge wrote:
Mostly, that's where they do end up. But, every now and then,I find that a bit surprising. No harm done, but the low-paid courier
something gets left on the doorstep outside the porch rather than in
it. When that happens, I always make a point of raising a formal
complaint with Amazon. It does get recorded on the driver's record,
and if they get too many similar complaints they'll get the boot. So
it's worth it, especially if other people also complain about
delivery instructions not being followed.
might be out of a job.
If the courier can't do their job properly then they should be out of it. Being low-paid isn't an excuse for deliberate incompetance.
Amazon couriers aren't particularly low-paid, anyway. It's not a high-paying job, for sure, but it's comfortably above minimum wage even at the lower levels and those who do it full time and do it well can pull in more than
the average UK earnings.
On 03/12/2024 15:07, Pamela wrote:
On 14:22 3 Dec 2024, Jeff Gaines said:
I ordered some sweets from Amazon which were delivered today by a
driver who just dumped them on the doorstep, I didn't realise they
had been delivered until I got the email telling me. It's cold so
probably no damage but in summer I had some sweets delivered that
had turned into a congealed mess by the time I realised that they
had been dumped on the doorstep (I returned those).
What is the legal position if somebody tampers with the package or
the food goes off because the drive didn't bother to knock/ring?
Dumping on the doorstep should be a last resort for Amazon. Ideally
the package is handed to the householder, and the Amazon courier may
tick his system to claim (sometimes falsely) that this was done.
Amazon makes provision for alternative methods of delivery, such as
leaving with a neighbour, which you can set up in advance.
In practice, if you contact Amazon customer services and explain the
item was damaged by being left outdoors they will probably just
replace it.
I have a large steel box, purpose made to accept parcels and to be
tamper proof, in my front porch. It has a pull down flap that is large
enough for the most common size of box I get things delivered in from
Amazon. The flap has a large notice, reading 'All deliveries in here
please' and 'Amazon safe place' More parcels get left in the outer
doorway of the porch, where they get wet i it is raining, than get put
into the box.
On 04/12/2024 09:27, Mark Goodge wrote:
We have an enclosed porch with a locked (when the house is empty)
inner door but an unlocked outer door. So my delivery instructions -
both on my Amazon account and reinforced by a notice on the door -
say that all deliveries must be left inside the porch.
Mostly, that's where they do end up. But, every now and then,
something gets left on the doorstep outside the porch rather than in
it. When that happens, I always make a point of raising a formal
complaint with Amazon. It does get recorded on the driver's record,
and if they get too many similar complaints they'll get the boot. So
it's worth it, especially if other people also complain about
delivery instructions not being followed.
Mark
I find that a bit surprising. No harm done, but the low-paid courier
might be out of a job.
We had a delivery of frozen vegan pasties[1] last week ready for our christmas visitors. I received an email telling me they'd been
delivered along with a photo of the box on someone else's doorstep.
So I walked up the road and found them a couple of doors up.
I contemplated complaining, but I found them in plenty of time and
mistakes happen.
[1] https://theveganpastycompany.com/ (They're very good)
If the courier can't do their job properly then they should be out of it. Being low-paid isn't an excuse for deliberate incompetance.
On 4 Dec 2024 at 09:53:05 GMT, ""Jeff Gaines"" <jgnewsid@outlook.com>
wrote:
On 03/12/2024 in message <xn0ou4i554d4pqv00c@news.individual.net> Jeff >>Gaines wrote:
What is the legal position if somebody tampers with the package or the >>>food goes off because the drive didn't bother to knock/ring?
Many thanks for the replies :-)
Nobody has covered the Russians injecting my sweets with Novichok because >>they were left in an accessible place with no warning.
We suspect the Russians are already hiding inside your house, so that is
the
least of your worries.
On 08:22 4 Dec 2024, Colin Bignell said:
[quoted text muted]
I have this parcel box mounted on a wall next to the front door. It's
quite good and has a metal sheet on the floor of the flap to prevent
light- fingered people putting their hand in the opening to retrieve any packages.
On 04/12/2024 in message <0644542963.6065adc1@uninhabited.net> Roger
Hayter wrote:
On 4 Dec 2024 at 09:53:05 GMT, ""Jeff Gaines"" <jgnewsid@outlook.com>
wrote:
On 03/12/2024 in message <xn0ou4i554d4pqv00c@news.individual.net> Jeff
Gaines wrote:
What is the legal position if somebody tampers with the package or the >>>> food goes off because the drive didn't bother to knock/ring?
Many thanks for the replies :-)
Nobody has covered the Russians injecting my sweets with Novichok
because
they were left in an accessible place with no warning.
We suspect the Russians are already hiding inside your house, so that
is the
least of your worries.
I thought I heard footprints upstairs :-)
On 03/12/2024 14:53, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 3 Dec 2024 at 14:22:51 GMT, ""Jeff Gaines"" <jgnewsid@outlook.com>
wrote:
I ordered some sweets from Amazon which were delivered today by a driver >>> who just dumped them on the doorstep, I didn't realise they had been
delivered until I got the email telling me. It's cold so probably no
damage but in summer I had some sweets delivered that had turned into a
congealed mess by the time I realised that they had been dumped on the
doorstep (I returned those).
What is the legal position if somebody tampers with the package or the
food goes off because the drive didn't bother to knock/ring?
Firstly, it is the seller's responsibility to deliver goods to a
consumer in
merchantable condition whether the courier is separate or part of the
same
firm
Secondly, whether the courier did ring the bell would be a matter of
fact to
be decided by the court in light of your evidence and any contrary
testimony
the driver might put forward.
It would then be up to the court to decide whether dumping them on the
doorstep or porch was adequately fulfilling the contract if they
didn't ring
or knock. Maybe someone knows of any case law on this, because I don't. I
think if the goods deteriorate in the sun then this is just as bad as if
someone actually comes and steals them, either risk is foreseeable.
What needs
to be decided is whether not knocking makes the seller liable.
An elaborate "don't know" for you.
I will expand upon your elaborate "don't know", if I may?
Regulation 43 in Part 5 of The Consumer Contracts (Information,
Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 [^1] covered the "Passing of risk" for goods in transit.
It said:
<quote>
(1) A sales contract is to be treated as including the following
provisions as terms.
(2) The goods remain at the trader's risk until they come into the
physical possession of—
(a) the consumer, or
(b) a person identified by the consumer to take possession of the goods.
(3) Paragraph (2) does not apply if the goods are delivered to a carrier who—
(a) is commissioned by the consumer to deliver the goods, and
(b) is not a carrier the trader named as an option for the consumer.
(4) In that case the goods are at the consumer’s risk on and after
delivery to the carrier.
(5) Paragraph (4) does not affect any liability of the carrier to the consumer in respect of the goods.
<end quote>
Notice the phrase in section (2): "The goods remain at the trader's risk until they come into the *physical possession* of the consumer or a
person identified by the consumer to take possession of the goods."
(Emphasis mine.)
Dumping a box on a doorstep and running for the hills without having
rung the doorbell / knocked on the door cannot, IMHO, be considered delivering the goods into the physical possession of the consumer.
However, there is a big problem with relying upon this legislation.
Notice that throughout the above I have used the past tense.
That's because Regulation 8 of The Consumer Contracts (Amendment)
Regulations 2015 [^2] omitted Part 5 of the preceding Regulation.
Meaning that from 13th June 2014 [^3] to 1st October 2015 risk remained
with the trader until the goods were in the physical possession of the consumer.
However, since then, the situation is "less clear". :-)
On 04/12/2024 10:24, Simon Parker wrote:
On 03/12/2024 14:53, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 3 Dec 2024 at 14:22:51 GMT, ""Jeff Gaines"" <jgnewsid@outlook.com>
wrote:
I ordered some sweets from Amazon which were delivered today by a driver >>>> who just dumped them on the doorstep, I didn't realise they had been
delivered until I got the email telling me. It's cold so probably no
damage but in summer I had some sweets delivered that had turned into a >>>> congealed mess by the time I realised that they had been dumped on the >>>> doorstep (I returned those).
What is the legal position if somebody tampers with the package or the >>>> food goes off because the drive didn't bother to knock/ring?
Firstly, it is the seller's responsibility to deliver goods to a
consumer in
merchantable condition whether the courier is separate or part of the
same
firm
Secondly, whether the courier did ring the bell would be a matter of
fact to
be decided by the court in light of your evidence and any contrary
testimony
the driver might put forward.
It would then be up to the court to decide whether dumping them on the
doorstep or porch was adequately fulfilling the contract if they
didn't ring
or knock. Maybe someone knows of any case law on this, because I don't. I >>> think if the goods deteriorate in the sun then this is just as bad as if >>> someone actually comes and steals them, either risk is foreseeable.
What needs
to be decided is whether not knocking makes the seller liable.
An elaborate "don't know" for you.
I will expand upon your elaborate "don't know", if I may?
Regulation 43 in Part 5 of The Consumer Contracts (Information,
Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 [^1] covered the
"Passing of risk" for goods in transit.
It said:
<quote>
(1) A sales contract is to be treated as including the following
provisions as terms.
(2) The goods remain at the trader's risk until they come into the
physical possession of—
(a) the consumer, or
(b) a person identified by the consumer to take possession of the
goods.
(3) Paragraph (2) does not apply if the goods are delivered to a carrier
who—
(a) is commissioned by the consumer to deliver the goods, and
(b) is not a carrier the trader named as an option for the consumer.
(4) In that case the goods are at the consumer’s risk on and after
delivery to the carrier.
(5) Paragraph (4) does not affect any liability of the carrier to the
consumer in respect of the goods.
<end quote>
Notice the phrase in section (2): "The goods remain at the trader's risk
until they come into the *physical possession* of the consumer or a
person identified by the consumer to take possession of the goods."
(Emphasis mine.)
Dumping a box on a doorstep and running for the hills without having
rung the doorbell / knocked on the door cannot, IMHO, be considered
delivering the goods into the physical possession of the consumer.
However, there is a big problem with relying upon this legislation.
Notice that throughout the above I have used the past tense.
That's because Regulation 8 of The Consumer Contracts (Amendment)
Regulations 2015 [^2] omitted Part 5 of the preceding Regulation.
Meaning that from 13th June 2014 [^3] to 1st October 2015 risk remained
with the trader until the goods were in the physical possession of the
consumer.
However, since then, the situation is "less clear". :-)
Pretty much since the Covid lockdown the protocol for most of the cheap delivery companies seems to be plonk parcel on doorstep, photograph,
then ring doorbell and run away as quickly as possible.
I have sometimes felt very sorry for a trader when a batch of really
nicely made photographic calenders were destroyed by a combination of
very rough handling by the courier and ingress of water due the that
damage. Calendars with smashed up corners and all stuck together because
they got wet in transit were completely unsaleable. Vendor redid them as
a rush job in time for Xmas so I was happy but they were out of pocket.
I've only had a couple of parcels go missing over decades buying online.
One of them was brazenly stolen from inside the delivery van itself.
On 5 Dec 2024 at 12:01:43 GMT, "Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 04/12/2024 10:24, Simon Parker wrote:
However, since then, the situation is "less clear". :-)
Pretty much since the Covid lockdown the protocol for most of the cheap
delivery companies seems to be plonk parcel on doorstep, photograph,
then ring doorbell and run away as quickly as possible.
I'm generally ok with that. If I'm expecting anything easily damaged or especially valuable I'll stay in, and casual theft is vanishingly rare around here. It is when they *don't* ring the doorbell it is annoying.
On 5 Dec 2024 at 12:01:43 GMT, "Martin Brown"
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 04/12/2024 10:24, Simon Parker wrote:
On 03/12/2024 14:53, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 3 Dec 2024 at 14:22:51 GMT, ""Jeff Gaines"" <jgnewsid@outlook.com>
wrote:
I ordered some sweets from Amazon which were delivered today by a
driver who just dumped them on the doorstep, I didn't realise they
had been delivered until I got the email telling me. It's cold so
probably no damage but in summer I had some sweets delivered that
had turned into a congealed mess by the time I realised that they
had been dumped on the doorstep (I returned those).
What is the legal position if somebody tampers with the package or
the food goes off because the drive didn't bother to knock/ring?
Firstly, it is the seller's responsibility to deliver goods to a
consumer in merchantable condition whether the courier is separate or
part of the same firm
Secondly, whether the courier did ring the bell would be a matter of
fact to be decided by the court in light of your evidence and any
contrary testimony the driver might put forward.
It would then be up to the court to decide whether dumping them on
the doorstep or porch was adequately fulfilling the contract if they
didn't ring or knock. Maybe someone knows of any case law on this,
because I don't. I think if the goods deteriorate in the sun then
this is just as bad as if someone actually comes and steals them,
either risk is foreseeable.
What needs to be decided is whether not knocking makes the seller
liable.
An elaborate "don't know" for you.
I will expand upon your elaborate "don't know", if I may?
Regulation 43 in Part 5 of The Consumer Contracts (Information,
Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 [^1] covered the
"Passing of risk" for goods in transit.
It said:
<quote>
(1) A sales contract is to be treated as including the following
provisions as terms.
(2) The goods remain at the trader's risk until they come into the
physical possession of—
(a) the consumer, or
(b) a person identified by the consumer to take possession of the
goods.
(3) Paragraph (2) does not apply if the goods are delivered to a
carrier who—
(a) is commissioned by the consumer to deliver the goods, and
(b) is not a carrier the trader named as an option for the
consumer.
(4) In that case the goods are at the consumer’s risk on and after
delivery to the carrier.
(5) Paragraph (4) does not affect any liability of the carrier to the
consumer in respect of the goods.
<end quote>
Notice the phrase in section (2): "The goods remain at the trader's
risk until they come into the *physical possession* of the consumer or
a person identified by the consumer to take possession of the goods."
(Emphasis mine.)
Dumping a box on a doorstep and running for the hills without having
rung the doorbell / knocked on the door cannot, IMHO, be considered
delivering the goods into the physical possession of the consumer.
However, there is a big problem with relying upon this legislation.
Notice that throughout the above I have used the past tense.
That's because Regulation 8 of The Consumer Contracts (Amendment)
Regulations 2015 [^2] omitted Part 5 of the preceding Regulation.
Meaning that from 13th June 2014 [^3] to 1st October 2015 risk
remained with the trader until the goods were in the physical
possession of the consumer.
However, since then, the situation is "less clear". :-)
Pretty much since the Covid lockdown the protocol for most of the cheap
delivery companies seems to be plonk parcel on doorstep, photograph,
then ring doorbell and run away as quickly as possible.
I'm generally ok with that. If I'm expecting anything easily damaged or especially valuable I'll stay in, and casual theft is vanishingly rare
around here. It is when they *don't* ring the doorbell it is annoying.
I rarely bother to give feedback but Amazon dumping on the door step has >become so common that I now give a glowing review to any Amazon courier
who delivers a package properly.
On 04/12/2024 13:21, Mark Goodge wrote:
<snip>
If the courier can't do their job properly then they should be out of it.
Being low-paid isn't an excuse for deliberate incompetance.
And what of Tiny Tim Cratchit?
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