I imagine that many of us were told (in no uncertain
terms) that a relationship with our first cousin was
incestuous? It never was and Victoria and Albert's marriage
attests to that.
Why make it illegal now?
On 9 Dec 2024 at 23:11:55 GMT, "LionelEdwards" <LionelEdwards> wrote:
I imagine that many of us were told (in no uncertain
terms) that a relationship with our first cousin was
incestuous? It never was and Victoria and Albert's marriage
attests to that.
Why make it illegal now?
It is illegal in America (perhaps varies with state) and many people in this >country are not apparently aware that we are not part of America.
I imagine that many of us were told (in no uncertain
terms) that a relationship with our first cousin was
incestuous? It never was and Victoria and Albert's marriage
attests to that.
Why make it illegal now?
I imagine that many of us were told (in no uncertain
terms) that a relationship with our first cousin was
incestuous? It never was and Victoria and Albert's marriage
attests to that.
Why make it illegal now?
I imagine that many of us were told (in no uncertain
terms) that a relationship with our first cousin was
incestuous? It never was and Victoria and Albert's marriage
attests to that.
Why make it illegal now?
On 09/12/2024 11:11 pm, LionelEdwards wrote:
I imagine that many of us were told (in no uncertain
terms) that a relationship with our first cousin was
incestuous? It never was and Victoria and Albert's marriage
attests to that.
"Incestuous" as used there is a legal term. What you describe wasn't
illegal because there wasn't (and still isn't) a law against it. Make provision in law for a prohibition on sexual relationshiops between
first cousins and it *will* be incestuous.
Why make it illegal now?
It was explained today that there are heightened concerns about
in-breeding effects. Presumably, this arises out of the results of
research which were not available to our Victorian ancestors.
Not, though, that very much was said about the research or the
conclusions drawn therefrom.
I imagine that many of us were told (in no uncertain
terms) that a relationship with our first cousin was
incestuous? It never was and Victoria and Albert's marriage
attests to that.
Why make it illegal now?
On 9 Dec 2024 at 23:54:44 GMT, "JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
On 09/12/2024 11:11 pm, LionelEdwards wrote:
I imagine that many of us were told (in no uncertain
terms) that a relationship with our first cousin was
incestuous? It never was and Victoria and Albert's marriage
attests to that.
"Incestuous" as used there is a legal term. What you describe wasn't
illegal because there wasn't (and still isn't) a law against it. Make
provision in law for a prohibition on sexual relationshiops between
first cousins and it *will* be incestuous.
Why make it illegal now?
It was explained today that there are heightened concerns about
in-breeding effects. Presumably, this arises out of the results of
research which were not available to our Victorian ancestors.
Not, though, that very much was said about the research or the
conclusions drawn therefrom.
Sadly, it seems that the moral panic is more about non-white people doing it than anything else.
On 10/12/2024 12:13, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 9 Dec 2024 at 23:54:44 GMT, "JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
On 09/12/2024 11:11 pm, LionelEdwards wrote:
I imagine that many of us were told (in no uncertain
terms) that a relationship with our first cousin was
incestuous? It never was and Victoria and Albert's marriage
attests to that.
"Incestuous" as used there is a legal term. What you describe wasn't
illegal because there wasn't (and still isn't) a law against it. Make
provision in law for a prohibition on sexual relationshiops between
first cousins and it *will* be incestuous.
Why make it illegal now?
It was explained today that there are heightened concerns about
in-breeding effects. Presumably, this arises out of the results of
research which were not available to our Victorian ancestors.
Not, though, that very much was said about the research or the
conclusions drawn therefrom.
Sadly, it seems that the moral panic is more about non-white people doing it >> than anything else.
Not really, it's a genetic risk. It just happens that within the Asian community it
happens more often for various reasons. This report is worth a read. It is about a
BBC3 progam shown some years ago called "Should I Marry My Cousin" ) currently
unavailable).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/6af25e7b-0545-42ba-a6fa-82ac1023b4ed
That documentary was probably made after various reports over the years showing birth
defects were higher than average in certain communities. Maybe rather than banning
cousin marriage the addidional risks should be made clear, and maybe genetic testing
prior to marriage suggested?
On 10/12/2024 12:13, Roger Hayter wrote:
[quoted text muted]
Not really, it's a genetic risk. It just happens that within the Asian community it happens more often for various reasons.
In message <9288960324.590aca1c@uninhabited.net>, at 01:08:09 on Tue, 10
Dec 2024, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
On 9 Dec 2024 at 23:11:55 GMT, "LionelEdwards" <LionelEdwards> wrote:
I imagine that many of us were told (in no uncertain
terms) that a relationship with our first cousin was
incestuous? It never was and Victoria and Albert's marriage
attests to that.
Why make it illegal now?
It is illegal in America (perhaps varies with state) and many people
in this
country are not apparently aware that we are not part of America.
It is axiomatic that aristocrats and royals must have "sneaked in" some
fresh DNA over the centuries as they would have been well aware of the
risks.
I imagine that many of us were told (in no uncertain terms) that a relationship with our first cousin was incestuous? It never was and
Victoria and Albert's marriage attests to that.
Why make it illegal now?
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 23:11:55 +0000, LionelEdwards wrote:
I imagine that many of us were told (in no uncertain terms) that a
relationship with our first cousin was incestuous? It never was and
Victoria and Albert's marriage attests to that.
Why make it illegal now?
Glad that you said relationship and not marriage.
It would be very old fashioned to legislate against marriage on the assumption that having children didn't happen outside wedlock.
It may be that the target is marriage for dynastic purposes, and also to obtain a dowry.
In that case banning marriage could be effective.
This does seem suspiciously like an attack on certain cultures/religions.
Cheers
Dave R
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 13:12:33 +0000, kat wrote:
On 10/12/2024 12:13, Roger Hayter wrote:
[quoted text muted]
Not really, it's a genetic risk. It just happens that within the Asian
community it happens more often for various reasons.
A one off is minimal risk.
It's the *repeated* couplings that increase risk. Probably exponentially.
If people move around *and* have no barriers to interclass marriages (we
are assuming here that marriages is a shorthand for having babies) that minimal risk is mitigated.
However if populations don't travel *and* actively work to prevent
interclass marriages (the Hindu caste system, for example). Then you will have problems.
It is axiomatic that aristocrats and royals must have "sneaked in" some
fresh DNA over the centuries as they would have been well aware of the
risks. With the obvious reason that pure bloodline was very much a second fiddle to keeping stuff in the family.
Interestingly the Romans circumvented this issue by being very into
(adult) adoption. The most famous example being Octavian (later
Augustus), the adopted heir to Caesar.
On 9 Dec 2024 at 23:11:55 GMT, "LionelEdwards" <LionelEdwards> wrote:
It is illegal in America (perhaps varies with state) and many people in this >country are not apparently aware that we are not part of America.
On 10/12/2024 11:49, Max Demian wrote:
<Quoting MP Richard Holden>
"Building on my previous work to ban hymenoplasty and so-called
virginity testing in the last Parliament"
Were there any virgins in the last Parliament? And what was his
interest in this topic?
On 10 Dec 2024 at 19:53:12 GMT, "Sam Plusnet" <not@home.com> wrote:
On 10/12/2024 11:49, Max Demian wrote:
<Quoting MP Richard Holden>
"Building on my previous work to ban hymenoplasty and so-called
virginity testing in the last Parliament"
Were there any virgins in the last Parliament? And what was his
interest in this topic?
Judging by this GBNews article, pretty straight-forward populist Islamophohia.
https://www.gbnews.com/politics/iqbal-mohamed-gaza-mp-first-cousin-marriages-richard-holden
I particularly like "pro-Gaza MP" (is anyone but few Israeli zealots *opposed*
to Gaza as an entity - its not a country?) as implying his support for an illegal organisation without risking a defamation action
According to Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org>:
On 9 Dec 2024 at 23:11:55 GMT, "LionelEdwards" <LionelEdwards> wrote:
It is illegal in America (perhaps varies with state) and many people in this >>country are not apparently aware that we are not part of America.
Marriage in the US is entirely* a matter of state law, and as a US
resident I can assure you that no two state laws are the same. It's
legal in about half of the states, illegal in others, and some have
rules like it's OK if both are over 65. This Wikipedia article has a
handy chart.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States
I gather that the reasons it's forbidden have less to do with potential genetic issues than with social concerns and has been lumped in with
polygamy and child marriage. Here in New York I am allowed to marry
my cousin but not my aunt or niece or uncle or nephew.
* - except that the "full faith and credit" clause of the US constitution requires all states to recognize marriages in other states which has caused some issues in the past with marriages between people of different races or of the same sex.
On 10 Dec 2024 at 20:09:35 GMT, "Roger Hayter" <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
On 10 Dec 2024 at 19:53:12 GMT, "Sam Plusnet" <not@home.com> wrote:
On 10/12/2024 11:49, Max Demian wrote:
<Quoting MP Richard Holden>
"Building on my previous work to ban hymenoplasty and so-called
virginity testing in the last Parliament"
Were there any virgins in the last Parliament? And what was his
interest in this topic?
Judging by this GBNews article, pretty straight-forward populist Islamophohia.
https://www.gbnews.com/politics/iqbal-mohamed-gaza-mp-first-cousin-marriages-richard-holden
I particularly like "pro-Gaza MP" (is anyone but few Israeli zealots *opposed*
to Gaza as an entity - its not a country?) as implying his support for an
illegal organisation without risking a defamation action
The other thing of note is whether he actually wants to make sex between first
cousins illegal, like the existing incest laws. If not, the only effect of his
marriage law will be to make first cousin marriages in minority communities into clandestine religious marriages, vastly reducing the security of the women involved.
I imagine that many of us were told (in no uncertain
terms) that a relationship with our first cousin was
incestuous? It never was and Victoria and Albert's marriage
attests to that.
Why make it illegal now?
On 10/12/2024 07:22, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <9288960324.590aca1c@uninhabited.net>, at 01:08:09 on Tue,
10 Dec 2024, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
On 9 Dec 2024 at 23:11:55 GMT, "LionelEdwards" <LionelEdwards> wrote:
I imagine that many of us were told (in no uncertain
terms) that a relationship with our first cousin was
incestuous? It never was and Victoria and Albert's marriage
attests to that.
Why make it illegal now?
It is illegal in America (perhaps varies with state) and many people
in this
country are not apparently aware that we are not part of America.
See
https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-commons-backs-proposal-to-ban >-first-cousin-marriage-but-mp-speaks-out-against-it-12593360
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <vj9jlh$10e3j$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:36:33 on Tue, 10 Dec
2024, David <david@nospam.com> remarked:
On 10/12/2024 07:22, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <9288960324.590aca1c@uninhabited.net>, at 01:08:09 on Tue,
10 Dec 2024, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
On 9 Dec 2024 at 23:11:55 GMT, "LionelEdwards" <LionelEdwards> wrote: >>>>>
I imagine that many of us were told (in no uncertain
terms) that a relationship with our first cousin was
incestuous? It never was and Victoria and Albert's marriage
attests to that.
Why make it illegal now?
It is illegal in America (perhaps varies with state) and many people >>>>> in this
country are not apparently aware that we are not part of America.
See
https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-commons-backs-proposal-to-ban >>> -first-cousin-marriage-but-mp-speaks-out-against-it-12593360
It's a Private Members Bill (and First Reading), so just someone flying
a kite that has 1% chance of going anywhere.
May be but, equally, it could be asked why the issue isn’t being addressed by the Government.
In message <vj9jlh$10e3j$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:36:33 on Tue, 10 Dec
2024, David <david@nospam.com> remarked:
On 10/12/2024 07:22, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <9288960324.590aca1c@uninhabited.net>, at 01:08:09 on Tue,
10 Dec 2024, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
On 9 Dec 2024 at 23:11:55 GMT, "LionelEdwards" <LionelEdwards> wrote:
I imagine that many of us were told (in no uncertain
terms) that a relationship with our first cousin was
incestuous? It never was and Victoria and Albert's marriage
attests to that.
Why make it illegal now?
It is illegal in America (perhaps varies with state) and many people
in this
country are not apparently aware that we are not part of America.
See
https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-commons-backs-proposal-to-ban
-first-cousin-marriage-but-mp-speaks-out-against-it-12593360
It's a Private Members Bill (and First Reading), so just someone flying
a kite that has 1% chance of going anywhere.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <vj9jlh$10e3j$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:36:33 on Tue, 10 Dec
2024, David <david@nospam.com> remarked:
On 10/12/2024 07:22, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <9288960324.590aca1c@uninhabited.net>, at 01:08:09 on Tue,
10 Dec 2024, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
On 9 Dec 2024 at 23:11:55 GMT, "LionelEdwards" <LionelEdwards> wrote: >>>>>
I imagine that many of us were told (in no uncertain
terms) that a relationship with our first cousin was
incestuous? It never was and Victoria and Albert's marriage
attests to that.
Why make it illegal now?
It is illegal in America (perhaps varies with state) and many people >>>>> in this
country are not apparently aware that we are not part of America.
See
https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-commons-backs-proposal-to-ban >>> -first-cousin-marriage-but-mp-speaks-out-against-it-12593360
It's a Private Members Bill (and First Reading), so just someone flying
a kite that has 1% chance of going anywhere.
May be but, equally, it could be asked why the issue isn’t being addressed >by the Government.
In message <vjfe4j$2tgio$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:38:59 on Thu, 12 Dec
2024, Brian <noinv@lid.org> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <vj9jlh$10e3j$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:36:33 on Tue, 10 Dec
2024, David <david@nospam.com> remarked:
On 10/12/2024 07:22, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <9288960324.590aca1c@uninhabited.net>, at 01:08:09 on Tue, >>>>> 10 Dec 2024, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
On 9 Dec 2024 at 23:11:55 GMT, "LionelEdwards" <LionelEdwards> wrote: >>>>>>
I imagine that many of us were told (in no uncertain
terms) that a relationship with our first cousin was
incestuous? It never was and Victoria and Albert's marriage
attests to that.
Why make it illegal now?
It is illegal in America (perhaps varies with state) and many people >>>>>> in this
country are not apparently aware that we are not part of America.
See
https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-commons-backs-proposal-to-ban >>>> -first-cousin-marriage-but-mp-speaks-out-against-it-12593360
It's a Private Members Bill (and First Reading), so just someone flying
a kite that has 1% chance of going anywhere.
May be but, equally, it could be asked why the issue isn’t being addressed >> by the Government.
Because they already have a hundred more important things on their
plate.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <vjfe4j$2tgio$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:38:59 on Thu, 12 Dec
2024, Brian <noinv@lid.org> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <vj9jlh$10e3j$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:36:33 on Tue, 10 Dec
2024, David <david@nospam.com> remarked:
On 10/12/2024 07:22, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <9288960324.590aca1c@uninhabited.net>, at 01:08:09 on Tue, >>>>>> 10 Dec 2024, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
On 9 Dec 2024 at 23:11:55 GMT, "LionelEdwards" <LionelEdwards> wrote: >>>>>>>
I imagine that many of us were told (in no uncertain
terms) that a relationship with our first cousin was
incestuous? It never was and Victoria and Albert's marriage
attests to that.
Why make it illegal now?
It is illegal in America (perhaps varies with state) and many
in this country are not apparently aware that we are not part >>>>>>>of America.
See
https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-commons-backs-proposal-to-ban >>>>> -first-cousin-marriage-but-mp-speaks-out-against-it-12593360
It's a Private Members Bill (and First Reading), so just someone flying >>>> a kite that has 1% chance of going anywhere.
May be but, equally, it could be asked why the issue isn’t being addressed
by the Government.
Because they already have a hundred more important things on their
plate.
Such as rapidly-falling popularity, increased unemployment due to rises in >National Insurance, bursting prisons, growth slowed due to their budget… >Change, eh? Bites both ways.
In message <ls7vfdF4ed8U1@mid.individual.net>, at 12:13:33 on Sun, 15
Dec 2024, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <vjfe4j$2tgio$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:38:59 on Thu, 12 Dec
2024, Brian <noinv@lid.org> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <vj9jlh$10e3j$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:36:33 on Tue, 10 Dec >>>>> 2024, David <david@nospam.com> remarked:
On 10/12/2024 07:22, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <9288960324.590aca1c@uninhabited.net>, at 01:08:09 on Tue, >>>>>>> 10 Dec 2024, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
On 9 Dec 2024 at 23:11:55 GMT, "LionelEdwards" <LionelEdwards> wrote: >>>>>>>>
I imagine that many of us were told (in no uncertain
terms) that a relationship with our first cousin was
incestuous? It never was and Victoria and Albert's marriage
attests to that.
Why make it illegal now?
It is illegal in America (perhaps varies with state) and many
in this country are not apparently aware that we are not part >>>>>>>> of America.
See
https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-commons-backs-proposal-to-ban >>>>>> -first-cousin-marriage-but-mp-speaks-out-against-it-12593360
It's a Private Members Bill (and First Reading), so just someone flying >>>>> a kite that has 1% chance of going anywhere.
May be but, equally, it could be asked why the issue isn’t being addressed
by the Government.
Because they already have a hundred more important things on their
plate.
Such as rapidly-falling popularity, increased unemployment due to rises in >> National Insurance, bursting prisons, growth slowed due to their budget… >> Change, eh? Bites both ways.
I was thinking more about those policy issues which require
Parliamentary time. You can start with all the measures in the
King's Speech.
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