We are told by the Climate Justice Society that there is a meat and...
dairy climate crisis. https://www.londonmetsu.org.uk/welcome-week/join/group/10433/
Apparently the approprite form of direct action is to visit department stores, pour milk on the floor, waste a lot of milk and thereby break
the law. I can't see how that achieves anything useful.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/Bone-Pontes-Sentencing.pdf
quote
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue
of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may
well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in
the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that
you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect
on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the
fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
We are told by the Climate Justice Society that there is a meat and
dairy climate crisis. https://www.londonmetsu.org.uk/welcome-week/join/group/10433/
Apparently the approprite form of direct action is to visit department stores, pour milk on the floor, waste a lot of milk and thereby break
the law. I can't see how that achieves anything useful.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/Bone-Pontes-Sentencing.pdf
quote
I have to sentence each of you for offences of theft and criminal damage committed on 7/10/22.
On that day, as part of a protest, you went to the Fortnum & Mason store
in Piccadilly. There you took 19 bottles of milk, at a value of £38,
which you emptied on to the carpet on the ground floor.
Later that day, you went to the Selfridges store on Oxford Street and
there took 18 bottles of milk, at a value of £34.52, which you emptied
on to the cheese display in the food hall.
On 2024-12-13, The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:
We are told by the Climate Justice Society that there is a meat and...
dairy climate crisis.
https://www.londonmetsu.org.uk/welcome-week/join/group/10433/
Apparently the approprite form of direct action is to visit department
stores, pour milk on the floor, waste a lot of milk and thereby break
the law. I can't see how that achieves anything useful.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/Bone-Pontes-Sentencing.pdf
quote
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue
of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may
well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in
the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that
you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect
on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the
fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain
for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the
system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some reflecting.
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue
of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may
well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in
the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that >>you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect
on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the >>fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain
for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the
system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some >reflecting.
On 13/12/2024 10:53, The Todal wrote:
We are told by the Climate Justice Society that there is a meat and
dairy climate crisis.
https://www.londonmetsu.org.uk/welcome-week/join/group/10433/
Apparently the approprite form of direct action is to visit department
stores, pour milk on the floor, waste a lot of milk and thereby break
the law. I can't see how that achieves anything useful.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/Bone-Pontes-Sentencing.pdf
quote
I have to sentence each of you for offences of theft and criminal damage
committed on 7/10/22.
On that day, as part of a protest, you went to the Fortnum & Mason store
in Piccadilly. There you took 19 bottles of milk, at a value of £38,
which you emptied on to the carpet on the ground floor.
Later that day, you went to the Selfridges store on Oxford Street and
there took 18 bottles of milk, at a value of £34.52, which you emptied
on to the cheese display in the food hall.
Out of curiousity - if they had first purchased the milk from the store
and paid for it then they cannot be charged with theft.
Is criminal damage a less serious offence?
On 13/12/2024 in message
<slrnvlo5j8.52e8.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu> Jon Ribbens wrote:
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue
of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may
well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in
the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that >>> you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect
on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the
fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain
for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the
system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some
reflecting.
That is for Parliament, not the judge.
On 13/12/2024 12:01, Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 13/12/2024 in message
<slrnvlo5j8.52e8.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu> Jon Ribbens wrote:
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue
of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may
well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in >>>> the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that >>>> you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect >>>> on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the >>>> fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain >>> for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the
system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some
reflecting.
That is for Parliament, not the judge.
Speaking for myself, I now buy extra items at Tesco and place them in
the collecting point for the local food bank, and I shall probably do
that until after Christmas.
When people have to resort to food banks to feed themselves and their families it seems utterly irresponsible to pour milk away in a wholly pointless gesture of solidarity with dairy cows.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain
for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the
system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some reflecting.
quote...
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue
of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may
well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in
the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that >>> you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect
on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the
fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain
for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the
system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some
reflecting.
I think the judge is entitled to think that if we accept aggression and violence in a middle class 'good' cause we are going to have difficulty in getting public support for exemplary punishment of fascist rioters.
We are told by the Climate Justice Society that there is a meat and
dairy climate crisis. https://www.londonmetsu.org.uk/welcome-week/join/group/10433/
Apparently the approprite form of direct action is to visit department stores, pour milk on the floor, waste a lot of milk and thereby break
the law. I can't see how that achieves anything useful.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/Bone-Pontes-Sentencing.pdf
quote
I have to sentence each of you for offences of theft and criminal damage committed on 7/10/22.
On that day, as part of a protest, you went to the Fortnum & Mason store
in Piccadilly. There you took 19 bottles of milk, at a value of £38,
which you emptied on to the carpet on the ground floor.
Later that day, you went to the Selfridges store on Oxford Street and
there took 18 bottles of milk, at a value of £34.52, which you emptied
on to the cheese display in the food hall.
Stephen Bone you are now 42 years old.
What aggravates this case is the fact that you have behaved in a similar
way before and indeed not that long ago.
In addition, these offences were committed whilst on bail for those
similar matters.
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue
of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may
well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in
the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that
you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect
on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the
fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
On 13/12/2024 in message
<slrnvlo5j8.52e8.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu> Jon Ribbens wrote:
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue
of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may
well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in
the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that >>> you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect
on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the
fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain
for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the
system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some
reflecting.
That is for Parliament, not the judge.
On 13 Dec 2024 at 12:20:56 GMT, "The Todal" <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:
On 13/12/2024 12:01, Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 13/12/2024 in message
<slrnvlo5j8.52e8.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu> Jon Ribbens wrote:
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue >>>>> of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may
well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in >>>>> the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that >>>>> you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect >>>>> on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the >>>>> fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain >>>> for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the
system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some >>>> reflecting.
That is for Parliament, not the judge.
Speaking for myself, I now buy extra items at Tesco and place them in
the collecting point for the local food bank, and I shall probably do
that until after Christmas.
When people have to resort to food banks to feed themselves and their
families it seems utterly irresponsible to pour milk away in a wholly
pointless gesture of solidarity with dairy cows.
I think it is more solidarity with turnips. I don't think they approve of dairy cows. Who are these demonstrations aimed at? I doubt if governments in a
democracy can significantly change people's diets in the direction of less animal exploitation. Don't the demonstrators see the risk of alienating more people than they convince?
On 2024-12-13, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 13/12/2024 10:53, The Todal wrote:
We are told by the Climate Justice Society that there is a meat and
dairy climate crisis.
https://www.londonmetsu.org.uk/welcome-week/join/group/10433/
Apparently the approprite form of direct action is to visit
department stores, pour milk on the floor, waste a lot of milk and
thereby break the law. I can't see how that achieves anything
useful.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/Bone-
Pontes-Sentencing.pdf
quote
I have to sentence each of you for offences of theft and criminal
damage committed on 7/10/22.
On that day, as part of a protest, you went to the Fortnum & Mason
store in Piccadilly. There you took 19 bottles of milk, at a value
of £38, which you emptied on to the carpet on the ground floor.
Later that day, you went to the Selfridges store on Oxford Street
and there took 18 bottles of milk, at a value of £34.52, which you
emptied on to the cheese display in the food hall.
Out of curiousity - if they had first purchased the milk from the
store and paid for it then they cannot be charged with theft.
Is criminal damage a less serious offence?
No. Theft is punishable with up to 7 years, criminal damage up to 10.
I guess paying for the milk wouldn't have made any difference to the sentence.
On 13/12/2024 11:11, Jon Ribbens wrote:
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain
for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the
system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some
reflecting.
We must do something about climate change. Spilling milk is something,
so let's do it.
Is this the thought process?
On 13 Dec 2024 at 12:20:56 GMT, "The Todal" wrote:
On 13/12/2024 12:01, Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 13/12/2024 in message
<slrnvlo5j8.52e8.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu> Jon Ribbens wrote:
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by
virtue of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such,
you may well have irretrievably damaged your prospects and
ambition to work in the law. What is particularly unattractive in
your case is the fact that you are entirely unremorseful. You
appear to lack any insight whatsoever. I trust that over the
length of your order you will reflect on what you did and the
negative effect that it has had for you and the fact that there
are other legitimate ways of making your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to
entertain for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be
oneself and the system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and
should be doing some reflecting.
That is for Parliament, not the judge.
Speaking for myself, I now buy extra items at Tesco and place them in
the collecting point for the local food bank, and I shall probably do
that until after Christmas.
When people have to resort to food banks to feed themselves and their
families it seems utterly irresponsible to pour milk away in a wholly
pointless gesture of solidarity with dairy cows.
I think it is more solidarity with turnips. I don't think they approve
of dairy cows. Who are these demonstrations aimed at? I doubt if
governments in a democracy can significantly change people's diets in
the direction of less animal exploitation. Don't the demonstrators see
the risk of alienating more people than they convince?
On 13/12/2024 01:32 pm, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 13 Dec 2024 at 12:20:56 GMT, "The Todal" <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:
On 13/12/2024 12:01, Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 13/12/2024 in message
<slrnvlo5j8.52e8.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu> Jon Ribbens wrote:
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue >>>>>> of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may >>>>>> well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in >>>>>> the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that >>>>>> you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect >>>>>> on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the >>>>>> fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain >>>>> for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the >>>>> system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some >>>>> reflecting.
That is for Parliament, not the judge.
Speaking for myself, I now buy extra items at Tesco and place them in
the collecting point for the local food bank, and I shall probably do
that until after Christmas.
When people have to resort to food banks to feed themselves and their
families it seems utterly irresponsible to pour milk away in a wholly
pointless gesture of solidarity with dairy cows.
I think it is more solidarity with turnips. I don't think they approve of
dairy cows. Who are these demonstrations aimed at? I doubt if governments in a
democracy can significantly change people's diets in the direction of less >> animal exploitation. Don't the demonstrators see the risk of alienating more >> people than they convince?
They don't "think" the opionions and preferences of the majority are in
any way relevant.
Certain Labour activists in Liverpool (AIRI), used to take the same
line. They called it "the democracy of the committed". The votes of the uncommitted were to be ignored.
On 13/12/2024 11:11, Jon Ribbens wrote:
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain
for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the
system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some
reflecting.
We must do something about climate change. Spilling milk is something,
so let's do it.
Is this the thought process?
On 13 Dec 2024 at 13:33:01 GMT, GB wrote:
On 13/12/2024 11:11, Jon Ribbens wrote:
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain >>> for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the
system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some
reflecting.
We must do something about climate change. Spilling milk is something,
so let's do it.
Is this the thought process?
Yes - direct action, as I think it's known.
On 12/13/24 11:59, Roger Hayter wrote:
quote...
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue
of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may
well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in >>>> the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that >>>> you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect >>>> on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the >>>> fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain >>> for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the
system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some
reflecting.
I think the judge is entitled to think that if we accept aggression and
violence in a middle class 'good' cause we are going to have difficulty in >> getting public support for exemplary punishment of fascist rioters.
There is a difference between accepting criminality and understanding political activism. Basically, he could have punished them without also spouting pompous drivel. Nonsense that would have minimal influence on anyone, especially on the entirely remorseless.
On 13/12/2024 in message <slrnvlo5j8.52e8.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu> Jon Ribbens wrote:...
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue
of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may
well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in >>>the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that >>>you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect >>>on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the >>>fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain >>for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the >>system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some >>reflecting.
That is for Parliament, not the judge.
On 12/13/24 11:59, Roger Hayter wrote:
quote...
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue
of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may
well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in >>>> the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that >>>> you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect >>>> on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the >>>> fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain >>> for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the
system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some
reflecting.
I think the judge is entitled to think that if we accept aggression and
violence in a middle class 'good' cause we are going to have difficulty in >> getting public support for exemplary punishment of fascist rioters.
There is a difference between accepting criminality and understanding political activism. Basically, he could have punished them without also spouting pompous drivel. Nonsense that would have minimal influence on anyone, especially on the entirely remorseless.
On 13 Dec 2024 at 12:35:16 GMT, "Pancho" <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:
On 12/13/24 11:59, Roger Hayter wrote:
quote...
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue >>>>> of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may
well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in >>>>> the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that >>>>> you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect >>>>> on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the >>>>> fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain >>>> for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the
system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some >>>> reflecting.
I think the judge is entitled to think that if we accept aggression and
violence in a middle class 'good' cause we are going to have difficulty in >>> getting public support for exemplary punishment of fascist rioters.
There is a difference between accepting criminality and understanding
political activism. Basically, he could have punished them without also
spouting pompous drivel. Nonsense that would have minimal influence on
anyone, especially on the entirely remorseless.
I expect his "pompous drivel" was more intended for discussion by
people such as ourselves and as a warning to people who might emulate
the defendants rather than to help in the defendants' rehabilitation.
On 2024-12-13, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
On 13 Dec 2024 at 12:35:16 GMT, "Pancho" <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:
On 12/13/24 11:59, Roger Hayter wrote:
quote...
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue >>>>>> of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may >>>>>> well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in >>>>>> the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that >>>>>> you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect >>>>>> on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the >>>>>> fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain >>>>> for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the >>>>> system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some >>>>> reflecting.
I think the judge is entitled to think that if we accept aggression and >>>> violence in a middle class 'good' cause we are going to have difficulty in >>>> getting public support for exemplary punishment of fascist rioters.
There is a difference between accepting criminality and understanding
political activism. Basically, he could have punished them without also
spouting pompous drivel. Nonsense that would have minimal influence on
anyone, especially on the entirely remorseless.
I expect his "pompous drivel" was more intended for discussion by
people such as ourselves and as a warning to people who might emulate
the defendants rather than to help in the defendants' rehabilitation.
Well that's part of my point. If anything his stupid remarks are likely
to piss people off and make them *more likely* to emulate the defendant.
Thus increasing disorder and decreasing the rule of law, the opposite of
the job of a judge.
On 13 Dec 2024 at 23:34:54 GMT, "Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2024-12-13, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
On 13 Dec 2024 at 12:35:16 GMT, "Pancho" <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote: >>>> On 12/13/24 11:59, Roger Hayter wrote:
quote...
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue >>>>>>> of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may >>>>>>> well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in >>>>>>> the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that
you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect >>>>>>> on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the >>>>>>> fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain >>>>>> for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the >>>>>> system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some >>>>>> reflecting.
I think the judge is entitled to think that if we accept aggression and >>>>> violence in a middle class 'good' cause we are going to have difficulty in
getting public support for exemplary punishment of fascist rioters.
There is a difference between accepting criminality and understanding
political activism. Basically, he could have punished them without also >>>> spouting pompous drivel. Nonsense that would have minimal influence on >>>> anyone, especially on the entirely remorseless.
I expect his "pompous drivel" was more intended for discussion by
people such as ourselves and as a warning to people who might emulate
the defendants rather than to help in the defendants' rehabilitation.
Well that's part of my point. If anything his stupid remarks are likely
to piss people off and make them *more likely* to emulate the defendant.
Thus increasing disorder and decreasing the rule of law, the opposite of
the job of a judge.
Surely not if they're older than 15?
On 2024-12-13, Jeff Gaines <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
On 13/12/2024 in message <slrnvlo5j8.52e8.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu> >> Jon Ribbens wrote:...
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue
of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may
well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in >>>> the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that >>>> you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect >>>> on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the >>>> fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain >>> for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the
system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some
reflecting.
That is for Parliament, not the judge.
I'm not saying the judge should have said "regretfully I have to convict
you due to this unjust law". I'm saying the judge *shouldn't* go off on stupid rants about how people should feel bad for having moral courage.
It's ideologically quite handy that veganism is good for preventing climate change.
One could almost make a religion out of it. I suppose it could be
true though.
Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
It's ideologically quite handy that veganism is good for preventing climate >> change.
Is veganism ‘good for climate change’?
And is that in the context of increasing it, decreasing it, or holding it steady?
One could almost make a religion out of it. I suppose it could be
true though.
On 2024-12-13, The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:
We are told by the Climate Justice Society that there is a meat and...
dairy climate crisis.
https://www.londonmetsu.org.uk/welcome-week/join/group/10433/
Apparently the approprite form of direct action is to visit department
stores, pour milk on the floor, waste a lot of milk and thereby break
the law. I can't see how that achieves anything useful.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/Bone-Pontes- Sentencing.pdf
quote
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue of
these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may well
have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in the
law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that
you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect
on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the
fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain
for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the
system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some reflecting.
Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
It's ideologically quite handy that veganism is good for preventing
climate change.
Is veganism ‘good for climate change’?
And is that in the context of increasing it, decreasing it, or holding
it steady?
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:11:36 +0000, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2024-12-13, The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:Sentencing.pdf
We are told by the Climate Justice Society that there is a meat and
dairy climate crisis.
https://www.londonmetsu.org.uk/welcome-week/join/group/10433/
Apparently the approprite form of direct action is to visit department
stores, pour milk on the floor, waste a lot of milk and thereby break
the law. I can't see how that achieves anything useful.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/Bone-Pontes-
...
quote
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue of
these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may well
have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in the
law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that
you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect
on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the
fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain
for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the
system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some
reflecting.
I have a memory that pre 1967 judges were quite gleeful for sentencing
men for homosexual acts and made no secret of their disgust in sentencing.
Which makes you wonder how impartial they were. Especially in 1968.
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 22:34:17 +0000, Spike wrote:
Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
It's ideologically quite handy that veganism is good for preventing
climate change.
Is veganism ‘good for climate change’?
Vegans say it is (MRD applies)
And is that in the context of increasing it, decreasing it, or holding
it steady?
Quite aside from the millions of years of evolution it took Homo Sapiens
to evolve as *omnivores* (which probably explains why we are here today)
I believe there simply isn't enough fertile land to sustain a 100% vegan
diet for the entire human population. Or to achieve that we need to
remove a few other species first.
That said, I would admit that I - like most westerners - probably do eat
too much meat.
On 14 Dec 2024 at 10:47:55 GMT, "Jethro_uk" <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com>
wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:11:36 +0000, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2024-12-13, The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:Sentencing.pdf
We are told by the Climate Justice Society that there is a meat and
dairy climate crisis.
https://www.londonmetsu.org.uk/welcome-week/join/group/10433/
Apparently the approprite form of direct action is to visit
department stores, pour milk on the floor, waste a lot of milk and
thereby break the law. I can't see how that achieves anything useful.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/Bone-Pontes-
...
quote
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue
of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may
well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work
in the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the
fact that you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any
insight whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you
will reflect on what you did and the negative effect that it has had
for you and the fact that there are other legitimate ways of making
your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to
entertain for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be
oneself and the system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and
should be doing some reflecting.
I have a memory that pre 1967 judges were quite gleeful for sentencing
men for homosexual acts and made no secret of their disgust in
sentencing.
Which makes you wonder how impartial they were. Especially in 1968.
Indeed, a judge unable to self-righteously support the law as it stands
is probably in the wrong job. Not a career for the nonconformist.
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 11:32:01 +0000, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 14 Dec 2024 at 10:47:55 GMT, "Jethro_uk" <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com>
wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:11:36 +0000, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2024-12-13, The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:Sentencing.pdf
We are told by the Climate Justice Society that there is a meat and
dairy climate crisis.
https://www.londonmetsu.org.uk/welcome-week/join/group/10433/
Apparently the approprite form of direct action is to visit
department stores, pour milk on the floor, waste a lot of milk and
thereby break the law. I can't see how that achieves anything useful. >>>>>
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/Bone-Pontes-
...
quote
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue >>>>> of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may
well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work >>>>> in the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the
fact that you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any
insight whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you
will reflect on what you did and the negative effect that it has had >>>>> for you and the fact that there are other legitimate ways of making
your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to
entertain for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be
oneself and the system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and
should be doing some reflecting.
I have a memory that pre 1967 judges were quite gleeful for sentencing
men for homosexual acts and made no secret of their disgust in
sentencing.
Which makes you wonder how impartial they were. Especially in 1968.
Indeed, a judge unable to self-righteously support the law as it stands
is probably in the wrong job. Not a career for the nonconformist.
I personally think they just need to judge and keep anything else to themselves. The sentence speaks for itself - it doesn't need any extra garnish.
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 22:34:17 +0000, Spike wrote:
Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
It's ideologically quite handy that veganism is good for preventing
climate change.
Is veganism ‘good for climate change’?
Vegans say it is (MRD applies)
And is that in the context of increasing it, decreasing it, or holding
it steady?
Quite aside from the millions of years of evolution it took Homo Sapiens
to evolve as *omnivores* (which probably explains why we are here today)
I believe there simply isn't enough fertile land to sustain a 100% vegan
diet for the entire human population. Or to achieve that we need to
remove a few other species first.
That said, I would admit that I - like most westerners - probably do eat
too much meat.
On 13 Dec 2024 at 22:34:17 GMT, "Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
It's ideologically quite handy that veganism is good for preventing climate >>> change.
Is veganism ‘good for climate change’?
And is that in the context of increasing it, decreasing it, or holding it
steady?
Reducing warming gases by reducing the number of (especially bovine) farm animals. Reducing consumption generally as it takes much more land and fertiliser to produce beef than a similar food value of vegetables.
One could almost make a religion out of it. I suppose it could be
true though.
On 2024-12-13, Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:
On 12/13/24 11:59, Roger Hayter wrote:
quote...
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue >>>>> of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may
well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in >>>>> the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that >>>>> you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect >>>>> on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the >>>>> fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain >>>> for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the
system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some >>>> reflecting.
I think the judge is entitled to think that if we accept aggression and
violence in a middle class 'good' cause we are going to have difficulty in >>> getting public support for exemplary punishment of fascist rioters.
There is a difference between accepting criminality and understanding
political activism. Basically, he could have punished them without also
spouting pompous drivel. Nonsense that would have minimal influence on
anyone, especially on the entirely remorseless.
Exactly.
On 2024-12-13, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
On 13 Dec 2024 at 23:34:54 GMT, "Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu>
wrote:
On 2024-12-13, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
On 13 Dec 2024 at 12:35:16 GMT, "Pancho" <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote: >>>>> On 12/13/24 11:59, Roger Hayter wrote:
There is a difference between accepting criminality and understanding >>>>> political activism. Basically, he could have punished them without also >>>>> spouting pompous drivel. Nonsense that would have minimal influence on >>>>> anyone, especially on the entirely remorseless.quote...
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue >>>>>>>> of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may >>>>>>>> well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work inOh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain
the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that
you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect
on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the
fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point. >>>>>>>
for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the >>>>>>> system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some >>>>>>> reflecting.
I think the judge is entitled to think that if we accept aggression and >>>>>> violence in a middle class 'good' cause we are going to have difficulty in
getting public support for exemplary punishment of fascist rioters. >>>>>
I expect his "pompous drivel" was more intended for discussion by
people such as ourselves and as a warning to people who might emulate
the defendants rather than to help in the defendants' rehabilitation.
Well that's part of my point. If anything his stupid remarks are likely
to piss people off and make them *more likely* to emulate the defendant. >>> Thus increasing disorder and decreasing the rule of law, the opposite of >>> the job of a judge.
Surely not if they're older than 15?
I've looked into it and it turns out that people over 15 can also get
pissed off.
On 13 Dec 2024 at 22:34:17 GMT, "Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
It's ideologically quite handy that veganism is good for preventing climate >>> change.
Is veganism ‘good for climate change’?
And is that in the context of increasing it, decreasing it, or holding it
steady?
Reducing warming gases by reducing the number of (especially bovine) farm animals. Reducing consumption generally as it takes much more land and fertiliser to produce beef than a similar food value of vegetables.
On 12/13/24 11:59, Roger Hayter wrote:
quote...
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue
of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may
well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in >>>> the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact
that
you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect >>>> on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the >>>> fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain >>> for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the
system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some
reflecting.
I think the judge is entitled to think that if we accept aggression and
violence in a middle class 'good' cause we are going to have
difficulty in
getting public support for exemplary punishment of fascist rioters.
There is a difference between accepting criminality and understanding political activism.
Basically, he could have punished them without also
spouting pompous drivel. Nonsense that would have minimal influence on anyone, especially on the entirely remorseless.
On 2024-12-13, Jeff Gaines <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
On 13/12/2024 in message <slrnvlo5j8.52e8.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu> >> Jon Ribbens wrote:...
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue
of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may
well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in >>>> the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that >>>> you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect >>>> on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the >>>> fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain >>> for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the
system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some
reflecting.
That is for Parliament, not the judge.
I'm not saying the judge should have said "regretfully I have to convict
you due to this unjust law". I'm saying the judge *shouldn't* go off on stupid rants about how people should feel bad for having moral courage.
On 13 Dec 2024 at 13:49:01 GMT, "JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
On 13/12/2024 01:32 pm, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 13 Dec 2024 at 12:20:56 GMT, "The Todal" <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote: >>>
On 13/12/2024 12:01, Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 13/12/2024 in message
<slrnvlo5j8.52e8.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu> Jon Ribbens wrote: >>>>>
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue >>>>>>> of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may >>>>>>> well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in >>>>>>> the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that
you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect >>>>>>> on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the >>>>>>> fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain >>>>>> for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the >>>>>> system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some >>>>>> reflecting.
That is for Parliament, not the judge.
Speaking for myself, I now buy extra items at Tesco and place them in
the collecting point for the local food bank, and I shall probably do
that until after Christmas.
When people have to resort to food banks to feed themselves and their
families it seems utterly irresponsible to pour milk away in a wholly
pointless gesture of solidarity with dairy cows.
I think it is more solidarity with turnips. I don't think they approve of >>> dairy cows. Who are these demonstrations aimed at? I doubt if governments in a
democracy can significantly change people's diets in the direction of less >>> animal exploitation. Don't the demonstrators see the risk of alienating more
people than they convince?
They don't "think" the opionions and preferences of the majority are in
any way relevant.
Certain Labour activists in Liverpool (AIRI), used to take the same
line. They called it "the democracy of the committed". The votes of the
uncommitted were to be ignored.
But weren't they Trotskyists, and therefore objectively on the side of bosses?
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:11:36 +0000, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2024-12-13, The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:
We are told by the Climate Justice Society that there is a meat and
dairy climate crisis.
https://www.londonmetsu.org.uk/welcome-week/join/group/10433/
Apparently the approprite form of direct action is to visit department
stores, pour milk on the floor, waste a lot of milk and thereby break
the law. I can't see how that achieves anything useful.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/Bone-Pontes-
Sentencing.pdf
quote...
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue of
these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may well
have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in the
law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that
you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect
on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the
fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain
for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the
system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some
reflecting.
I have a memory that pre 1967 judges were quite gleeful for sentencing
men for homosexual acts and made no secret of their disgust in sentencing.
Which makes you wonder how impartial they were. Especially in 1968.
Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
On 13 Dec 2024 at 22:34:17 GMT, "Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
It's ideologically quite handy that veganism is good for preventing climate
change.
Is veganism ‘good for climate change’?
And is that in the context of increasing it, decreasing it, or holding it >>> steady?
Reducing warming gases by reducing the number of (especially bovine) farm
animals. Reducing consumption generally as it takes much more land and
fertiliser to produce beef than a similar food value of vegetables.
That appears to be a very mechanistic approach.
Do vegetables supply a totality of necessary nutrients?
On 14/12/2024 09:52, Spike wrote:
Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
On 13 Dec 2024 at 22:34:17 GMT, "Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
It's ideologically quite handy that veganism is good for preventing climate
change.
Is veganism ‘good for climate change’?
And is that in the context of increasing it, decreasing it, or holding it >>>> steady?
Reducing warming gases by reducing the number of (especially bovine) farm >>> animals. Reducing consumption generally as it takes much more land and
fertiliser to produce beef than a similar food value of vegetables.
That appears to be a very mechanistic approach.
Do vegetables supply a totality of necessary nutrients?
Yes. Any supplements required are minimal, and not that different than
for meat eaters. Vitamin D, B12, etc. Everyone needs a bit of NaCl.
On 14 Dec 2024 at 11:34:47 GMT, "Jethro_uk" <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 11:32:01 +0000, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 14 Dec 2024 at 10:47:55 GMT, "Jethro_uk" <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com>
wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:11:36 +0000, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2024-12-13, The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:Sentencing.pdf
We are told by the Climate Justice Society that there is a meat and >>>>>> dairy climate crisis.
https://www.londonmetsu.org.uk/welcome-week/join/group/10433/
Apparently the approprite form of direct action is to visit
department stores, pour milk on the floor, waste a lot of milk and >>>>>> thereby break the law. I can't see how that achieves anything
useful.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/Bone-Pontes-
...
quote
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by
virtue of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such,
you may well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and
ambition to work in the law. What is particularly unattractive in
your case is the fact that you are entirely unremorseful. You
appear to lack any insight whatsoever. I trust that over the length >>>>>> of your order you will reflect on what you did and the negative
effect that it has had for you and the fact that there are other
legitimate ways of making your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to
entertain for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be
oneself and the system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and
should be doing some reflecting.
I have a memory that pre 1967 judges were quite gleeful for
sentencing men for homosexual acts and made no secret of their
disgust in sentencing.
Which makes you wonder how impartial they were. Especially in 1968.
Indeed, a judge unable to self-righteously support the law as it
stands is probably in the wrong job. Not a career for the
nonconformist.
I personally think they just need to judge and keep anything else to
themselves. The sentence speaks for itself - it doesn't need any extra
garnish.
They do need to record the rationale for the sentence, and the
application of the sentencing guidelines, somewhere. If only for the
parties and the appeal court to decide whether an appeal is justified.
Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
It's ideologically quite handy that veganism is good for preventing climate >> change.
Is veganism ‘good for climate change’?
On 13 Dec 2024 22:34:17 GMT, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
Yes, provided you switch to a diet of mainly unprocessed fruit and
vegetables (eg, adopt the diet of a Jain).
On 13 Dec 2024 at 11:11:36 GMT, "Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2024-12-13, The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:
We are told by the Climate Justice Society that there is a meat and...
dairy climate crisis.
https://www.londonmetsu.org.uk/welcome-week/join/group/10433/
Apparently the approprite form of direct action is to visit department
stores, pour milk on the floor, waste a lot of milk and thereby break
the law. I can't see how that achieves anything useful.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/Bone-Pontes-Sentencing.pdf
quote
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue
of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may
well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in
the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that >>> you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect
on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the
fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain
for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the
system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some
reflecting.
I think the judge is entitled to think that if we accept aggression and violence in a middle class 'good' cause we are going to have difficulty in getting public support for exemplary punishment of fascist rioters.
What is to stop them buying milk, destroying it in a public place, and cleaning up after themselves - if they think that makes sense.
On 14 Dec 2024 at 13:50:52 GMT, "GB" <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> wrote:
On 14/12/2024 09:52, Spike wrote:
Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
On 13 Dec 2024 at 22:34:17 GMT, "Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
It's ideologically quite handy that veganism is good for preventing climate
change.
Is veganism ‘good for climate change’?
And is that in the context of increasing it, decreasing it, or holding it >>>>> steady?
Reducing warming gases by reducing the number of (especially bovine) farm >>>> animals. Reducing consumption generally as it takes much more land and >>>> fertiliser to produce beef than a similar food value of vegetables.
That appears to be a very mechanistic approach.
Do vegetables supply a totality of necessary nutrients?
Yes. Any supplements required are minimal, and not that different than
for meat eaters. Vitamin D, B12, etc. Everyone needs a bit of NaCl.
Everyone needs NaCl, but I think it would be impossible to eat an otherwise adequate diet without getting enough of it. I don't think anyone needs added salt.
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 16:47:57 +0000, Mark Goodge wrote:
On 13 Dec 2024 22:34:17 GMT, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
Yes, provided you switch to a diet of mainly unprocessed fruit and
vegetables (eg, adopt the diet of a Jain).
Is that the one where you spend 20 hours eating and the other 4 on the
toilet ?
Le 14/12/2024 à 14:36, Roger Hayter a écrit :
On 14 Dec 2024 at 13:50:52 GMT, "GB" <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> wrote: >>
On 14/12/2024 09:52, Spike wrote:
Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
On 13 Dec 2024 at 22:34:17 GMT, "Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote: >>>>>
Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
It's ideologically quite handy that veganism is good for preventing climate
change.
Is veganism ‘good for climate change’?
And is that in the context of increasing it, decreasing it, or holding it
steady?
Reducing warming gases by reducing the number of (especially bovine) farm >>>>> animals. Reducing consumption generally as it takes much more land and >>>>> fertiliser to produce beef than a similar food value of vegetables.
That appears to be a very mechanistic approach.
Do vegetables supply a totality of necessary nutrients?
Yes. Any supplements required are minimal, and not that different than
for meat eaters. Vitamin D, B12, etc. Everyone needs a bit of NaCl.
Everyone needs NaCl, but I think it would be impossible to eat an otherwise >> adequate diet without getting enough of it. I don't think anyone needs added >> salt.
I follow a ketogenic diet and I need extra salt.
Le 13/12/2024 à 11:59, Roger Hayter a écrit :
On 13 Dec 2024 at 11:11:36 GMT, "Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu>
wrote:
On 2024-12-13, The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:
We are told by the Climate Justice Society that there is a meat and...
dairy climate crisis.
https://www.londonmetsu.org.uk/welcome-week/join/group/10433/
Apparently the approprite form of direct action is to visit department >>>> stores, pour milk on the floor, waste a lot of milk and thereby break
the law. I can't see how that achieves anything useful.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/Bone-Pontes-Sentencing.pdf
quote
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue
of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may
well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in >>>> the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that >>>> you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect >>>> on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the >>>> fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
Oh to have the moral certainty of a judge and never to have to entertain >>> for a moment the possibility that in fact it might be oneself and the
system that is in the wrong, lacking insight, and should be doing some
reflecting.
I think the judge is entitled to think that if we accept aggression and
violence in a middle class 'good' cause we are going to have difficulty in >> getting public support for exemplary punishment of fascist rioters.
What is to stop them buying milk, destroying it in a public place, and
cleaning up after themselves - if they think that makes sense.
Because they'd have to pay for it and nobody like to pay upfront.
Protest comes better with somebody else's money.
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 17:02:43 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 16:47:57 +0000, Mark Goodge wrote:
On 13 Dec 2024 22:34:17 GMT, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
Yes, provided you switch to a diet of mainly unprocessed fruit and
vegetables (eg, adopt the diet of a Jain).
Is that the one where you spend 20 hours eating and the other 4 on the
toilet ?
That's a bit of an exaggeration. But it does require a lifestyle change, not just a change in the ingredients of your food.
I have an acquaintance who is vegetarian, and always has been, having been brought up in a household which was vegetarian for religious reasons and who continues to follow that religion himself. He's quite scathing about people who convert to vegetarianism on animal welfare grounds but continue to eat mainly processed food, including artificial meat substitutes. His point, which he makes well, is that such a diet isn't any healthier than the meat-based diet they've switched away from, and isn't necessarily any better for the planet either. His position is that people need to learn to cook,
and cook properly, rather than buying everything off the shelf, and that if you can do that, then you can make healthy, delicious meals out of fruit and vegetables that will not only meet any moral reasons for vegetarianism but also be be healthier and more environmentally friendly as well.
I don't particularly disagree with him, to be honest. I could quite happily eat the type of food he eats, and ejoy it - I've been a beneficiary of his hospitality and the food was, actually, delicious. I entirely agree with him that we should try to reduce the amount of processed food in our diet. It's just that I don't feel any moral imperative to ditch meat, so I continue to eat it.
Mark
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 17:02:43 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 16:47:57 +0000, Mark Goodge wrote:
On 13 Dec 2024 22:34:17 GMT, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
Yes, provided you switch to a diet of mainly unprocessed fruit and
vegetables (eg, adopt the diet of a Jain).
Is that the one where you spend 20 hours eating and the other 4 on the
toilet ?
That's a bit of an exaggeration. But it does require a lifestyle change, not just a change in the ingredients of your food.
I have an acquaintance who is vegetarian, and always has been, having been brought up in a household which was vegetarian for religious reasons and who continues to follow that religion himself. He's quite scathing about people who convert to vegetarianism on animal welfare grounds but continue to eat mainly processed food, including artificial meat substitutes. His point, which he makes well, is that such a diet isn't any healthier than the meat-based diet they've switched away from, and isn't necessarily any better for the planet either. His position is that people need to learn to cook,
and cook properly, rather than buying everything off the shelf, and that if you can do that, then you can make healthy, delicious meals out of fruit and vegetables that will not only meet any moral reasons for vegetarianism but also be be healthier and more environmentally friendly as well.
On 14 Dec 2024 at 14:59:41 GMT, "Ottavio Caruso" <ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com> wrote:
Le 14/12/2024 à 14:36, Roger Hayter a écrit :
On 14 Dec 2024 at 13:50:52 GMT, "GB" <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> wrote: >>>
On 14/12/2024 09:52, Spike wrote:
Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
On 13 Dec 2024 at 22:34:17 GMT, "Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote: >>>>>>That appears to be a very mechanistic approach.
Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
It's ideologically quite handy that veganism is good for preventing climate
change.
Is veganism ‘good for climate change’?
And is that in the context of increasing it, decreasing it, or holding it
steady?
Reducing warming gases by reducing the number of (especially bovine) farm
animals. Reducing consumption generally as it takes much more land and >>>>>> fertiliser to produce beef than a similar food value of vegetables. >>>>>
Do vegetables supply a totality of necessary nutrients?
Yes. Any supplements required are minimal, and not that different than >>>> for meat eaters. Vitamin D, B12, etc. Everyone needs a bit of NaCl.
Everyone needs NaCl, but I think it would be impossible to eat an otherwise >>> adequate diet without getting enough of it. I don't think anyone needs added
salt.
I follow a ketogenic diet and I need extra salt.
Ketosis is is an abnormal state; I said an *adequate* diet.
Le 14/12/2024 à 18:42, Roger Hayter a écrit :
On 14 Dec 2024 at 14:59:41 GMT, "Ottavio Caruso"
<ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com> wrote:
Le 14/12/2024 à 14:36, Roger Hayter a écrit :
Everyone needs NaCl, but I think it would be impossible to eat an
otherwise adequate diet without getting enough of it. I don't think
anyone needs added salt.
I follow a ketogenic diet and I need extra salt.
Ketosis is is an abnormal state; I said an *adequate* diet.
Ketosis is the normal state for newborns and our ancestors were in
ketosis most of the time.
On 2024-12-16, Ottavio Caruso <ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com> wrote:
Le 14/12/2024 à 18:42, Roger Hayter a écrit :
On 14 Dec 2024 at 14:59:41 GMT, "Ottavio Caruso"
<ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com> wrote:
Le 14/12/2024 à 14:36, Roger Hayter a écrit :
Everyone needs NaCl, but I think it would be impossible to eat an
otherwise adequate diet without getting enough of it. I don't think
anyone needs added salt.
I follow a ketogenic diet and I need extra salt.
Ketosis is is an abnormal state; I said an *adequate* diet.
Ketosis is the normal state for newborns and our ancestors were in
ketosis most of the time.
Our ancestors had inadequate diets. Are you saying you are a newborn?
On 13/12/2024 10:53 am, The Todal wrote:
We are told by the Climate Justice Society that there is a meat and
dairy climate crisis.
https://www.londonmetsu.org.uk/welcome-week/join/group/10433/
Apparently the approprite form of direct action is to visit department
stores, pour milk on the floor, waste a lot of milk and thereby break
the law. I can't see how that achieves anything useful.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/Bone-Pontes-Sentencing.pdf
quote
I have to sentence each of you for offences of theft and criminal damage
committed on 7/10/22.
On that day, as part of a protest, you went to the Fortnum & Mason store
in Piccadilly. There you took 19 bottles of milk, at a value of £38,
which you emptied on to the carpet on the ground floor.
Later that day, you went to the Selfridges store on Oxford Street and
there took 18 bottles of milk, at a value of £34.52, which you emptied
on to the cheese display in the food hall.
Stephen Bone you are now 42 years old.
What aggravates this case is the fact that you have behaved in a similar
way before and indeed not that long ago.
In addition, these offences were committed whilst on bail for those
similar matters.
Sofia Fernandes Pontes, you are now 28 years old and have, by virtue
of these convictions, thrown away your good name. As such, you may
well have irretrievably damaged your prosepects and ambition to work in
the law. What is particularly unattractive in your case is the fact that
you are entirely unremorseful. You appear to lack any insight
whatsoever. I trust that over the length of your order you will reflect
on what you did and the negative effect that it has had for you and the
fact that there are other legitimate ways of making your point.
Further extracts:
QUOTE:
Stephen Bone...
Your offence is serious enough to require a community order for the next
2 years – and you will be subject to these requirements:
You will complete 100 hours of Unpaid work, working when and where
you are directed to by your supervising officer.
ENDQUOTE
[There's a similar though not identical provision for Pontes.]
The unpaid work should be the sweeping and swabbing of the decks in a
nearby abattoir, rubbing their noses in the fact that they do not
represent the population at large.
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