If a person dies, then the bank will (once they've been told) freeze
their account and not allow any transactions [other than to pay funeral expenses] until various probate-related activities have taken place.
But if a third party knows the online banking passwords, do they also
freeze access to the historical transaction records?
Let's ignore technical details like, for example, one of my online
banking accounts requires 2FA on a phone to view more than the 'most
recent' transactions, because the enquirer might have possession of
that phone and its passwords too.
On 18 Dec 2024 at 16:19:58 GMT, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
If a person dies, then the bank will (once they've been told) freeze
their account and not allow any transactions [other than to pay funeral
expenses] until various probate-related activities have taken place.
But if a third party knows the online banking passwords, do they also
freeze access to the historical transaction records?
Let's ignore technical details like, for example, one of my online
banking accounts requires 2FA on a phone to view more than the 'most
recent' transactions, because the enquirer might have possession of
that phone and its passwords too.
In my experience they disable logging in immediately. Though this is but one >anecdote and there are many banks.
In message <3972797466.669375d7@uninhabited.net>, at 16:35:28 on Wed, 18
Dec 2024, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
On 18 Dec 2024 at 16:19:58 GMT, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
If a person dies, then the bank will (once they've been told) freeze
their account and not allow any transactions [other than to pay funeral
expenses] until various probate-related activities have taken place.
But if a third party knows the online banking passwords, do they also
freeze access to the historical transaction records?
Let's ignore technical details like, for example, one of my online
banking accounts requires 2FA on a phone to view more than the 'most
recent' transactions, because the enquirer might have possession of
that phone and its passwords too.
In my experience they disable logging in immediately. Though this is but one >> anecdote and there are many banks.
One anecdote is better than none!
An issue with this approach is that executors (and let's assume the
enquirer turns out to be one of the executors, but hasn't been paying
close attention) have no idea what balances there might be, what
standing orders, let alone a concept of what gifts might have been made.
Whereas with classic paper records, all that stuff is [hopefully] in the deceased's sideboard.
In message <3972797466.669375d7@uninhabited.net>, at 16:35:28 on Wed, 18...which is another reason why this old codger still insists on paper statements. The extra bit of interest I might get on-line only is as
Dec 2024, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
On 18 Dec 2024 at 16:19:58 GMT, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
If a person dies, then the bank will (once they've been told) freeze
their account and not allow any transactions [other than to pay funeral
expenses] until various probate-related activities have taken place.
But if a third party knows the online banking passwords, do they also
freeze access to the historical transaction records?
Let's ignore technical details like, for example, one of my online
banking accounts requires 2FA on a phone to view more than the 'most
recent' transactions, because the enquirer might have possession of
that phone and its passwords too.
In my experience they disable logging in immediately. Though this is but one >>anecdote and there are many banks.
One anecdote is better than none!
An issue with this approach is that executors (and let's assume the
enquirer turns out to be one of the executors, but hasn't been paying
close attention) have no idea what balances there might be, what
standing orders, let alone a concept of what gifts might have been made.
Whereas with classic paper records, all that stuff is [hopefully] in the >deceased's sideboard.
The extra bit of interest I might get on-line only is as nothing
compared to the complications I might be leaving my executors. Other
old codgers and codgeresses reading here might like to consider this.
In message <3972797466.669375d7@uninhabited.net>, at 16:35:28 on Wed, 18
Dec 2024, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
On 18 Dec 2024 at 16:19:58 GMT, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
If a person dies, then the bank will (once they've been told) freeze
their account and not allow any transactions [other than to pay funeral
expenses] until various probate-related activities have taken place.
But if a third party knows the online banking passwords, do they also
freeze access to the historical transaction records?
Let's ignore technical details like, for example, one of my online
banking accounts requires 2FA on a phone to view more than the 'most
recent' transactions, because the enquirer might have possession of
that phone and its passwords too.
In my experience they disable logging in immediately. Though this is
but one
anecdote and there are many banks.
One anecdote is better than none!
An issue with this approach is that executors (and let's assume the
enquirer turns out to be one of the executors, but hasn't been paying
close attention) have no idea what balances there might be, what
standing orders, let alone a concept of what gifts might have been made.
Whereas with classic paper records, all that stuff is [hopefully] in the deceased's sideboard.
On 2024-12-18 17:11, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <3972797466.669375d7@uninhabited.net>, at 16:35:28 on Wed,
18 Dec 2024, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
On 18 Dec 2024 at 16:19:58 GMT, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
If a person dies, then the bank will (once they've been told) freeze
their account and not allow any transactions [other than to pay funeral >>>> expenses] until various probate-related activities have taken place.
But if a third party knows the online banking passwords, do they also
freeze access to the historical transaction records?
Let's ignore technical details like, for example, one of my online
banking accounts requires 2FA on a phone to view more than the 'most
recent' transactions, because the enquirer might have possession of
that phone and its passwords too.
In my experience they disable logging in immediately. Though this is
but one anecdote and there are many banks.
One anecdote is better than none!
An issue with this approach is that executors (and let's assume the >>enquirer turns out to be one of the executors, but hasn't been paying
close attention) have no idea what balances there might be, what
standing orders, let alone a concept of what gifts might have been made.
Whereas with classic paper records, all that stuff is [hopefully] in
the deceased's sideboard.
Absolutely, just in that situation now! And they do seem to have
disabled the app after notification of death.
One anecdote is better than none!...which is another reason why this old codger still insists on paper statements. The extra bit of interest I might get on-line only is as
An issue with this approach is that executors (and let's assume the
enquirer turns out to be one of the executors, but hasn't been paying
close attention) have no idea what balances there might be, what
standing orders, let alone a concept of what gifts might have been made.
Whereas with classic paper records, all that stuff is [hopefully] in the
deceased's sideboard.
nothing compared to the complications I might be leaving my executors.
Other old codgers and codgeresses reading here might like to consider
this.
Having recently arrived at one of the first stages of codgerhood, I have
for a number of years (12, it seems) been downloading and storing pdfs
of bank statements to my computer (in suitably documented and organised >yearly folders). Probably not identical to paper in the sideboard, but >similar.
I also print bank statements and store in an old fashioned lever arch
file, but the joy of having pdfs for printing is that I can strip out
the T&C verbiage that always seems to top and tail bank statements these >days, before printing 2 pages to a sheet and double-sided which much
reduces the bulk, and ensures my exors should be able to find my bank >statements. Maybe overkill, but I have found in the past when doing the >exors job that bank statements are one "must have" so I want to try and
make my exors job a little easier.
I also print bank statements and store in an old fashioned lever arch
file, but the joy of having pdfs for printing is that I can strip out
the T&C verbiage that always seems to top and tail bank statements these >>days, before printing 2 pages to a sheet and double-sided which much >>reduces the bulk, and ensures my exors should be able to find my bank >>statements. Maybe overkill, but I have found in the past when doing the >>exors job that bank statements are one "must have" so I want to try and >>make my exors job a little easier.
Excuse my ignorance, but why would executors need years of bank
statements?
And why don't will-making solicitors flag up the desirability of
keeping such records if they are desirable?
I don't keep any paper records these days, and all my bills and
statements are received by email. There is a record of my expenditure
on my PC, and several copies of that exist, but I am ceratinly not
going to spend time, effort, space, and consumables in keeping a
physical record.
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 09:11:49 +0000, Allan <invalid@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
Having recently arrived at one of the first stages of codgerhood, I have >>for a number of years (12, it seems) been downloading and storing pdfs
of bank statements to my computer (in suitably documented and organised >>yearly folders). Probably not identical to paper in the sideboard, but >>similar.
I also print bank statements and store in an old fashioned lever arch
file, but the joy of having pdfs for printing is that I can strip out
the T&C verbiage that always seems to top and tail bank statements these >>days, before printing 2 pages to a sheet and double-sided which much >>reduces the bulk, and ensures my exors should be able to find my bank >>statements. Maybe overkill, but I have found in the past when doing the >>exors job that bank statements are one "must have" so I want to try and >>make my exors job a little easier.
Excuse my ignorance, but why would executors need years of bank
statements?
And why don't will-making solicitors flag up the desirability of
keeping such records if they are desirable?
I don't keep any paper records these days, and all my bills and
statements are received by email. There is a record of my expenditure
on my PC, and several copies of that exist, but I am ceratinly not
going to spend time, effort, space, and consumables in keeping a
physical record.
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 09:11:49 +0000, Allan <invalid@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
Having recently arrived at one of the first stages of codgerhood, I have
for a number of years (12, it seems) been downloading and storing pdfs
of bank statements to my computer (in suitably documented and organised
yearly folders). Probably not identical to paper in the sideboard, but
similar.
I also print bank statements and store in an old fashioned lever arch
file, but the joy of having pdfs for printing is that I can strip out
the T&C verbiage that always seems to top and tail bank statements these
days, before printing 2 pages to a sheet and double-sided which much
reduces the bulk, and ensures my exors should be able to find my bank
statements. Maybe overkill, but I have found in the past when doing the
exors job that bank statements are one "must have" so I want to try and
make my exors job a little easier.
Excuse my ignorance, but why would executors need years of bank
statements?
And why don't will-making solicitors flag up the desirability of
keeping such records if they are desirable?
I don't keep any paper records these days, and all my bills and
statements are received by email. There is a record of my expenditure
on my PC, and several copies of that exist, but I am ceratinly not
going to spend time, effort, space, and consumables in keeping a
physical record.
Excuse my ignorance, but why would executors need years of bank
statements?
And why don't will-making solicitors flag up the desirability of keeping
such records if they are desirable?
I don't keep any paper records these days, and all my bills and
statements are received by email. There is a record of my expenditure on
my PC, and several copies of that exist, but I am certainly not going to spend time, effort, space, and consumables in keeping a physical record.
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 14:52:53 +0000, Peter Johnson wrote:
Excuse my ignorance, but why would executors need years of bank
statements?
One reason is to check whether the deceased made any substantial lifetime gifts that could count as part of her taxable estate.
Depending on the complexity of the deceased's affairs, there could be
several others.
And why don't will-making solicitors flag up the desirability of keeping
such records if they are desirable?
They do.
I don't keep any paper records these days, and all my bills and
statements are received by email. There is a record of my expenditure on
my PC, and several copies of that exist, but I am certainly not going to
spend time, effort, space, and consumables in keeping a physical record.
I expect PDFs will do (assuming your executor will have access to your machine). But they're not as easy to riffle through and mark up as paper copies.
I don't keep any paper records these days, and all my bills and
statements are received by email. There is a record of my expenditure on
my PC, and several copies of that exist, but I am certainly not going to
spend time, effort, space, and consumables in keeping a physical record.
I expect PDFs will do (assuming your executor will have access to your >machine). But they're not as easy to riffle through and mark up as paper >copies.
In message <vk1h0f$2u3i6$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:18:23 on Thu, 19 Dec
2024, Handsome Jack <jack@handsome.com> remarked:
I don't keep any paper records these days, and all my bills and
statements are received by email. There is a record of my expenditure
on my PC, and several copies of that exist, but I am certainly not
going to spend time, effort, space, and consumables in keeping a
physical record.
I expect PDFs will do (assuming your executor will have access to your >>machine). But they're not as easy to riffle through and mark up as paper >>copies.
The problem is that many online 'bills' and 'bank accounts' are not easy
to capture as pdf's.
One of my banks has recently downgraded its online offering to csv files (from pdfs) for example. But they had always made the pdfs difficult to generate, so all you really had was doing a "printscreen".
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 09:11:49 +0000, Allan <invalid@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
Having recently arrived at one of the first stages of codgerhood, I have
for a number of years (12, it seems) been downloading and storing pdfs
of bank statements to my computer (in suitably documented and organised
yearly folders). Probably not identical to paper in the sideboard, but
similar.
I also print bank statements and store in an old fashioned lever arch
file, but the joy of having pdfs for printing is that I can strip out
the T&C verbiage that always seems to top and tail bank statements these
days, before printing 2 pages to a sheet and double-sided which much
reduces the bulk, and ensures my exors should be able to find my bank
statements. Maybe overkill, but I have found in the past when doing the
exors job that bank statements are one "must have" so I want to try and
make my exors job a little easier.
Excuse my ignorance, but why would executors need years of bank
statements?
And why don't will-making solicitors flag up the desirability of
keeping such records if they are desirable?
I don't keep any paper records these days, and all my bills and
statements are received by email. There is a record of my expenditure
on my PC, and several copies of that exist, but I am ceratinly not
going to spend time, effort, space, and consumables in keeping a
physical record.
In message <vk1h0f$2u3i6$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:18:23 on Thu, 19 Dec
2024, Handsome Jack <jack@handsome.com> remarked:
I don't keep any paper records these days, and all my bills and
statements are received by email. There is a record of my
expenditure on my PC, and several copies of that exist, but I am
certainly not going to spend time, effort, space, and consumables in
keeping a physical record.
I expect PDFs will do (assuming your executor will have access to your >>machine). But they're not as easy to riffle through and mark up as
paper copies.
The problem is that many online 'bills' and 'bank accounts' are not
easy to capture as pdf's.
One of my banks has recently downgraded its online offering to csv
files (from pdfs) for example. But they had always made the pdfs
difficult to generate, so all you really had was doing a
"printscreen".
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 07:09:35 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <vk1h0f$2u3i6$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:18:23 on Thu, 19 Dec
2024, Handsome Jack <jack@handsome.com> remarked:
I don't keep any paper records these days, and all my bills and
statements are received by email. There is a record of my expenditure
on my PC, and several copies of that exist, but I am certainly not
going to spend time, effort, space, and consumables in keeping a
physical record.
I expect PDFs will do (assuming your executor will have access to your >>>machine). But they're not as easy to riffle through and mark up as paper >>>copies.
The problem is that many online 'bills' and 'bank accounts' are not easy
to capture as pdf's.
One of my banks has recently downgraded its online offering to csv files
(from pdfs) for example. But they had always made the pdfs difficult to
generate, so all you really had was doing a "printscreen".
Isn't there a chatty "AI" solution to that ? If "AI" can't transliterate
a screen a PDF, then who the **** is going to trust it driving a car ?
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote in news:CaYryvDvgRZnFAPg@perry.uk:
In message <vk1h0f$2u3i6$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:18:23 on Thu, 19 Dec
2024, Handsome Jack <jack@handsome.com> remarked:
I don't keep any paper records these days, and all my bills and
statements are received by email. There is a record of my
expenditure on my PC, and several copies of that exist, but I am
certainly not going to spend time, effort, space, and consumables in
keeping a physical record.
I expect PDFs will do (assuming your executor will have access to your >>>machine). But they're not as easy to riffle through and mark up as
paper copies.
The problem is that many online 'bills' and 'bank accounts' are not
easy to capture as pdf's.
One of my banks has recently downgraded its online offering to csv
files (from pdfs) for example. But they had always made the pdfs
difficult to generate, so all you really had was doing a
"printscreen".
CSVs work for me, easy to load into a spreadsheet and format to my liking.
Was going to respond to the thread that I had been able to retain read-only >access to the accounts of a family member that I had executor
responsibility for but it's quite possible that I had viewed the risk
factors and downloaded the data before the bank realised the person had
died.
I was already a trusted person with the bank access details albeit on
an informal basis.
I don't keep any paper records these days, and all my bills and
statements are received by email. There is a record of my expenditure
on my PC, and several copies of that exist, but I am ceratinly not
going to spend time, effort, space, and consumables in keeping a
physical record.
I don't print them all out, just the bank statements, and they're very >condensed (4 pages on one sheet of A4). Better safe than sorry?
In message <vk3k1c$25s5n$54@dont-email.me>, at 11:22:20 on Fri, 20 Dec
2024, Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> remarked:
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 07:09:35 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <vk1h0f$2u3i6$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:18:23 on Thu, 19 Dec
2024, Handsome Jack <jack@handsome.com> remarked:
I don't keep any paper records these days, and all my bills and
statements are received by email. There is a record of my
expenditure on my PC, and several copies of that exist, but I am
certainly not going to spend time, effort, space, and consumables in >>>>> keeping a physical record.
I expect PDFs will do (assuming your executor will have access to your >>>>machine). But they're not as easy to riffle through and mark up as >>>>paper copies.
The problem is that many online 'bills' and 'bank accounts' are not
easy to capture as pdf's.
One of my banks has recently downgraded its online offering to csv
files (from pdfs) for example. But they had always made the pdfs
difficult to generate, so all you really had was doing a
"printscreen".
Isn't there a chatty "AI" solution to that ? If "AI" can't transliterate
a screen a PDF, then who the **** is going to trust it driving a car ?
I don't think the version of Windows I'm using has any AI facilities.
And the laptop's AV settings are very fragile - currently it will do a
zoom call wth an external webcam, but has stubbornly "forgotten" how to support an external USB speaker, so all I have is the weedy built-in
one. I disabled the laptop's camera years ago, when there were scares
about people spying (which were probably unfounded). Now we just have
Alexa listening to everything we say.
If a person dies, then the bank will (once they've been told) freeze
their account and not allow any transactions [other than to pay funeral expenses] until various probate-related activities have taken place.
But if a third party knows the online banking passwords, do they also
freeze access to the historical transaction records?
Let's ignore technical details like, for example, one of my online
banking accounts requires 2FA on a phone to view more than the 'most
recent' transactions, because the enquirer might have possession of
that phone and its passwords too.
If a person dies, then the bank will (once they've been told) freeze
their account and not allow any transactions [other than to pay funeral expenses] until various probate-related activities have taken place.
But if a third party knows the online banking passwords, do they also
freeze access to the historical transaction records?
Let's ignore technical details like, for example, one of my online
banking accounts requires 2FA on a phone to view more than the 'most
recent' transactions, because the enquirer might have possession of
that phone and its passwords too.
On 18/12/2024 16:19, Roland Perry wrote:
If a person dies, then the bank will (once they've been told) freeze
their account and not allow any transactions [other than to pay
funeral expenses] until various probate-related activities have taken >>place.
But if a third party knows the online banking passwords, do they
also freeze access to the historical transaction records?
Login typically is disabled almost immediately that you notify them.
This can be a nuisance in the modern era of paperless banking if you
find yourself as executor of a frozen account that has no printed paper
bank statements. Probably not what you are supposed to do but print
them out first if you have access through eg a LPoA.
I guess you are supposed to write to the bank in your capacity as
executor and ask for a valuation for probate at specified date.
I would have missed some of my mother's assets completely if I had not >already known of their existence through using my LPoA while she was
still alive. The bank flatly denied that any such account existed until
I showed them the printed online statement.
The problem was that due to many takeovers and incompetent IT various
very old legacy accounts of long dead banks are invisible on the normal >teller screens and have to be "found" by an IT wizard behind the
scenes. The output looked like ticker tape on a chain printer.
The only time it doesn't apply is if there is a spouse and it is an
account in joint names with the deceased. Then in the UK the survivor
usually continues to have full access and the account is renamed (or
closed and reopened as a new account with new account number & name).
Let's ignore technical details like, for example, one of my online
banking accounts requires 2FA on a phone to view more than the 'most >>recent' transactions, because the enquirer might have possession of
that phone and its passwords too.
Banks have very different interpretations of frozen too. Some freeze >everything completely, but others continue to permit payments into the >account like last fractional month of pension and water rates refund.
Strange things happen when bonds and things with a date mature during
probate with money spontaneously shuffling itself about at the whims of
the very small print in the T&C of the various financial institutions >involved.
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