Nearly 3 years after the main Russo-Ukraine war began, and after 1m casualties, it looks like the Ukrainians will be pressured into
accepting an unsatisfactory peace.
Back in 2022, the question was raised on this NG whether the Ukrainians should simply capitulate? Any thoughts on that now?
You'd have thought that Europe would have spent the last 3 years arming
up like mad, but even that hasn't happened.
Le 02/01/2025 à 12:47, GB a écrit :
Nearly 3 years after the main Russo-Ukraine war began, and after 1m
casualties, it looks like the Ukrainians will be pressured into
accepting an unsatisfactory peace.
Back in 2022, the question was raised on this NG whether the Ukrainians
should simply capitulate? Any thoughts on that now?
You'd have thought that Europe would have spent the last 3 years arming
up like mad, but even that hasn't happened.
In any case, it's not for us to tell Ukrainians what to do.
Nearly 3 years after the main Russo-Ukraine war began, and after 1m casualties, it looks like the Ukrainians will be pressured into
accepting an unsatisfactory peace.
Back in 2022, the question was raised on this NG whether the Ukrainians should simply capitulate? Any thoughts on that now?
You'd have thought that Europe would have spent the last 3 years arming
up like mad, but even that hasn't happened.
Le 02/01/2025 à 12:47, GB a écrit :
Nearly 3 years after the main Russo-Ukraine war began, and after 1m
casualties, it looks like the Ukrainians will be pressured into
accepting an unsatisfactory peace.
Back in 2022, the question was raised on this NG whether the
Ukrainians should simply capitulate? Any thoughts on that now?
You'd have thought that Europe would have spent the last 3 years
arming up like mad, but even that hasn't happened.
In any case, it's not for us to tell Ukrainians what to do.
Nearly 3 years after the main Russo-Ukraine war began, and after 1m casualties, it looks like the Ukrainians will be pressured into
accepting an unsatisfactory peace.
Back in 2022, the question was raised on this NG whether the Ukrainians should simply capitulate? Any thoughts on that now?
You'd have thought that Europe would have spent the last 3 years arming
up like mad, but even that hasn't happened.
On 02/01/2025 12:47, GB wrote:
Nearly 3 years after the main Russo-Ukraine war began, and after 1m
casualties, it looks like the Ukrainians will be pressured into
accepting an unsatisfactory peace.
Back in 2022, the question was raised on this NG whether the Ukrainians
should simply capitulate? Any thoughts on that now?
You'd have thought that Europe would have spent the last 3 years arming
up like mad, but even that hasn't happened.
Arming which European countries? The only European countries that are
scared of Russia are former members of the Soviet Union, and I doubt the
more peripheral ones really need to worry. I can't see Putin annexing
Poland any time soon, and Byelorussia and Ukraine are historically and geographically part of Russia anyway.
Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
On 02/01/2025 12:47, GB wrote:
Nearly 3 years after the main Russo-Ukraine war began, and after 1m
casualties, it looks like the Ukrainians will be pressured into
accepting an unsatisfactory peace.
Back in 2022, the question was raised on this NG whether the Ukrainians
should simply capitulate? Any thoughts on that now?
You'd have thought that Europe would have spent the last 3 years arming
up like mad, but even that hasn't happened.
Arming which European countries? The only European countries that are
scared of Russia are former members of the Soviet Union, and I doubt the
more peripheral ones really need to worry. I can't see Putin annexing
Poland any time soon, and Byelorussia and Ukraine are historically and
geographically part of Russia anyway.
Kievan Rus was the largest kingdom on the planet, at a time when Moscow was >an insignificant village.
Nearly 3 years after the main Russo-Ukraine war began, and after 1m casualties, it looks like the Ukrainians will be pressured into
accepting an unsatisfactory peace.
Back in 2022, the question was raised on this NG whether the Ukrainians should simply capitulate? Any thoughts on that now?
You'd have thought that Europe would have spent the last 3 years arming
up like mad, but even that hasn't happened.
You'd have thought that Europe would have spent the last 3 years
arming up like mad, but even that hasn't happened.
Why? It is clear Russia has more than enough on their hands with
Ukraine, and other ex soviet republics. They are so weak they have just
lost Syria.
Nearly 3 years after the main Russo-Ukraine war began, and after 1m >casualties, it looks like the Ukrainians will be pressured into accepting
an unsatisfactory peace.
Back in 2022, the question was raised on this NG whether the Ukrainians >should simply capitulate? Any thoughts on that now?
You'd have thought that Europe would have spent the last 3 years arming up >like mad, but even that hasn't happened.
Nearly 3 years after the main Russo-Ukraine war began, and after 1m casualties, it looks like the Ukrainians will be pressured into
accepting an unsatisfactory peace.
Back in 2022, the question was raised on this NG whether the Ukrainians should simply capitulate? Any thoughts on that now?
You'd have thought that Europe would have spent the last 3 years arming
up like mad, but even that hasn't happened.
On 02/01/2025 14:28, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
Le 02/01/2025 à 12:47, GB a écrit :
Nearly 3 years after the main Russo-Ukraine war began, and after 1m
casualties, it looks like the Ukrainians will be pressured into
accepting an unsatisfactory peace.
Back in 2022, the question was raised on this NG whether the
Ukrainians should simply capitulate? Any thoughts on that now?
You'd have thought that Europe would have spent the last 3 years
arming up like mad, but even that hasn't happened.
In any case, it's not for us to tell Ukrainians what to do.
We are by arming them, at least telling them what they *can* do.
On 02/01/2025 23:40, Pancho wrote:
You'd have thought that Europe would have spent the last 3 years
arming up like mad, but even that hasn't happened.
Why? It is clear Russia has more than enough on their hands with
Ukraine, and other ex soviet republics. They are so weak they have
just lost Syria.
They now have battle-hardened troops. Why stop at Ukraine? Why not
annexe Germany, then France?
On 02/01/2025 12:47, GB wrote:
[quoted text muted]
Russia was acting in a similar same way to how the US blockaded Cuba to ensure Russian missiles wouldn't be stationed within a short striking distance of the USA. At the time that was seen as reasonable for US's security.
On 02/01/2025 23:40, Pancho wrote:
You'd have thought that Europe would have spent the last 3 years
arming up like mad, but even that hasn't happened.
Why? It is clear Russia has more than enough on their hands with
Ukraine, and other ex soviet republics. They are so weak they have just
lost Syria.
They now have battle-hardened troops. Why stop at Ukraine? Why not
annexe Germany, then France?
Le 02/01/2025 à 17:35, Max Demian a écrit :
On 02/01/2025 14:28, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
Le 02/01/2025 à 12:47, GB a écrit :
Nearly 3 years after the main Russo-Ukraine war began, and after 1m
casualties, it looks like the Ukrainians will be pressured into
accepting an unsatisfactory peace.
Back in 2022, the question was raised on this NG whether the
Ukrainians should simply capitulate? Any thoughts on that now?
You'd have thought that Europe would have spent the last 3 years
arming up like mad, but even that hasn't happened.
In any case, it's not for us to tell Ukrainians what to do.
We are by arming them, at least telling them what they *can* do.
"We" are also arming the bad guys (e.g. Saudi Arabia, Israel and many dictators). Are "we" telling them what to do with the arms "we" are
selling them? Genuine question, because I don't have any insider in this matter but some of the Hon. members of this NG may have.
On 02/01/2025 23:40, Pancho wrote:
You'd have thought that Europe would have spent the last 3 years
arming up like mad, but even that hasn't happened.
Why? It is clear Russia has more than enough on their hands with
Ukraine, and other ex soviet republics. They are so weak they have
just lost Syria.
They now have battle-hardened troops. Why stop at Ukraine? Why not
annexe Germany, then France?
Russia was acting in a similar same way to how the US blockaded Cuba to ensure Russian missiles wouldn't be stationed within a short striking distance of the USA. At the time that was seen as reasonable for US's security.
I believe this war would never have started if Ukraine hadn't applied to become a member of NATO. It already had annexed the Crimean Peninsula.
Russia views NATO as an offensive organisation, with some justification:
https://www.reuters.com/article/markets/commodities/air-strike-hit-11-vehicles-in-gaddafi-convoy-nato-idUSL5E7LL2L8/
Perhaps more so than the West viewed the Warsaw Pact in the days of the
cold war.
I'm of the opinion Ukraine *could* have capitulated over the disputed
land of the Donbas region, perhaps in return for NATO membership.
Russia was never going to lose this war. It is several times the size of Ukraine and I'm surprised Ukraine has done so well.
On 03/01/2025 14:59, GB wrote:
On 02/01/2025 23:40, Pancho wrote:
You'd have thought that Europe would have spent the last 3 years
arming up like mad, but even that hasn't happened.
Why? It is clear Russia has more than enough on their hands with
Ukraine, and other ex soviet republics. They are so weak they have
just lost Syria.
They now have battle-hardened troops. Why stop at Ukraine? Why not
annexe Germany, then France?
Because they don't want to, any more than they did during the Cold War.
(In the Cold War, they wanted Marxism–Leninism to be established by persuasion/revolution, not military action.)
GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> wrote:
Nearly 3 years after the main Russo-Ukraine war began, and after 1m
casualties, it looks like the Ukrainians will be pressured into
accepting an unsatisfactory peace.
After the Soviet Union collapsed (which caused unhappiness in certain quarters as Marxism-Leninism had clearly failed as a system) the
Ukrainians gave up their Soviet-era nuclear weapons in return for
borders recognised by Russia.
That went well, didn’t it.
The suggestion is now that Ukraine cedes territory in return for peace
and a guaranteed border.
I think we can all see where that might lead.
Back in 2022, the question was raised on this NG whether the
Ukrainians should simply capitulate? Any thoughts on that now?
Never…Never…Never… No surrender!
Nearly 3 years after the main Russo-Ukraine war began, and after 1m casualties, it looks like the Ukrainians will be pressured into
accepting an unsatisfactory peace.
Back in 2022, the question was raised on this NG whether the
Ukrainians should simply capitulate? Any thoughts on that now?
You'd have thought that Europe would have spent the last 3 years
arming up like mad, but even that hasn't happened.
On 12:47 2 Jan 2025, GB said:
Nearly 3 years after the main Russo-Ukraine war began, and after 1m
casualties, it looks like the Ukrainians will be pressured into
accepting an unsatisfactory peace.
Back in 2022, the question was raised on this NG whether the
Ukrainians should simply capitulate? Any thoughts on that now?
You'd have thought that Europe would have spent the last 3 years
arming up like mad, but even that hasn't happened.
The fact Ukraine and Western countries had the stomach for a fight was
an important message to tell Putin. Europe learnt greater military realism and has shown resolve. Europe also learnt it had overestimated Russia's military.
If Ukraine had capitulated and Europe stood by, then Russia would have been emboldened to seize territory from other countries.
However the cost of all this in human lives has been appalling.
I'm surprised how supportive Britain has been, especially Boris. Yet geographically Britain is one of the last countries in Europe at risk of Russian invasion.
On 04/01/2025 14:39, Pamela wrote:
On 12:47 2 Jan 2025, GB said:
Nearly 3 years after the main Russo-Ukraine war began, and after 1m
casualties, it looks like the Ukrainians will be pressured into
accepting an unsatisfactory peace.
Back in 2022, the question was raised on this NG whether the
Ukrainians should simply capitulate? Any thoughts on that now?
You'd have thought that Europe would have spent the last 3 years
arming up like mad, but even that hasn't happened.
The fact Ukraine and Western countries had the stomach for a fight
was an important message to tell Putin. Europe learnt greater
military realism and has shown resolve. Europe also learnt it had
overestimated Russia's military.
If Ukraine had capitulated and Europe stood by, then Russia would
have been emboldened to seize territory from other countries.
Which countries? Not Poland, Czech Republic or Germany.
However the cost of all this in human lives has been appalling.
I'm surprised how supportive Britain has been, especially Boris. Yet
geographically Britain is one of the last countries in Europe at risk
of Russian invasion.
It's military support from Britain (and others) that has lead to the
loss of life on both sides.
War is seldom a good way to settle disputes; in fact I'm not sure what
it is good for (as the song goes).
On 16:50 2 Jan 2025, Spike said:
GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> wrote:
Nearly 3 years after the main Russo-Ukraine war began, and after 1m
casualties, it looks like the Ukrainians will be pressured into
accepting an unsatisfactory peace.
After the Soviet Union collapsed (which caused unhappiness in certain
quarters as Marxism-Leninism had clearly failed as a system) the
Ukrainians gave up their Soviet-era nuclear weapons in return for
borders recognised by Russia.
That went well, didnÂ’t it.
The suggestion is now that Ukraine cedes territory in return for peace
and a guaranteed border.
I think we can all see where that might lead.
Back in 2022, the question was raised on this NG whether the
Ukrainians should simply capitulate? Any thoughts on that now?
NeverÂ…NeverÂ…NeverÂ… No surrender!
[snip]
The general assumption seems to be the war ends with Ukraine and Russia coming to some agreement and each going back to lick their wounds.
However Ukraine has shown it can strike targets deep in Russia. If
Russia wins, I wonder if the Ukrainians will make their unhappiness
known by waging a guerrilla war, albeit without military victory as an objective. Russia might find Ukraine harder to quell than Chechnya.
On 16:50 2 Jan 2025, Spike said:
GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> wrote:
Nearly 3 years after the main Russo-Ukraine war began, and after 1m
casualties, it looks like the Ukrainians will be pressured into
accepting an unsatisfactory peace.
After the Soviet Union collapsed (which caused unhappiness in certain
quarters as Marxism-Leninism had clearly failed as a system) the
Ukrainians gave up their Soviet-era nuclear weapons in return for
borders recognised by Russia.
That went well, didn’t it.
The suggestion is now that Ukraine cedes territory in return for peace
and a guaranteed border.
I think we can all see where that might lead.
Back in 2022, the question was raised on this NG whether the
Ukrainians should simply capitulate? Any thoughts on that now?
Never…Never…Never… No surrender!
[snip]
The general assumption seems to be the war ends with Ukraine and
Russia coming to some agreement and each going back to lick their
wounds.
However Ukraine has shown it can strike targets deep in Russia. If
Russia wins, I wonder if the Ukrainians will make their unhappiness
known by waging a guerrilla war, albeit without military victory as an objective. Russia might find Ukraine harder to quell than Chechnya.
On 1/3/25 14:59, GB wrote:
On 02/01/2025 23:40, Pancho wrote:
You'd have thought that Europe would have spent the last 3 years
arming up like mad, but even that hasn't happened.
Why? It is clear Russia has more than enough on their hands with
Ukraine, and other ex soviet republics. They are so weak they have
just lost Syria.
They now have battle-hardened troops. Why stop at Ukraine? Why not
annexe Germany, then France?
If they had managed to annexe Kharkiv, I would be more convinced.
Kharkiv is 30km from the Russian border, just another 970km and they
would get to Poland. Then the same again and they would reach France.
Also, I think it is becoming clearer that drones/robots are the future,
not battle harden soldiers.
On 16:50 2 Jan 2025, Spike said:
GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> wrote:
Nearly 3 years after the main Russo-Ukraine war began, and after 1m
casualties, it looks like the Ukrainians will be pressured into
accepting an unsatisfactory peace.
After the Soviet Union collapsed (which caused unhappiness in certain
quarters as Marxism-Leninism had clearly failed as a system) the
Ukrainians gave up their Soviet-era nuclear weapons in return for
borders recognised by Russia.
That went well, didn’t it.
The suggestion is now that Ukraine cedes territory in return for peace
and a guaranteed border.
I think we can all see where that might lead.
Back in 2022, the question was raised on this NG whether the
Ukrainians should simply capitulate? Any thoughts on that now?
Never…Never…Never… No surrender!
[snip]
The general assumption seems to be the war ends with Ukraine and
Russia coming to some agreement and each going back to lick their
wounds.
GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> wrote:
Nearly 3 years after the main Russo-Ukraine war began, and after 1m
casualties, it looks like the Ukrainians will be pressured into
accepting an unsatisfactory peace.
After the Soviet Union collapsed (which caused unhappiness in certain quarters as Marxism-Leninism had clearly failed as a system) the Ukrainians gave up their Soviet-era nuclear weapons in return for borders recognised
by Russia.
That went well, didn’t it.
On 03/01/2025 15:58, Pancho wrote:
On 1/3/25 14:59, GB wrote:
On 02/01/2025 23:40, Pancho wrote:
You'd have thought that Europe would have spent the last 3 years
arming up like mad, but even that hasn't happened.
Why? It is clear Russia has more than enough on their hands with
Ukraine, and other ex soviet republics. They are so weak they have
just lost Syria.
They now have battle-hardened troops. Why stop at Ukraine? Why not
annexe Germany, then France?
If they had managed to annexe Kharkiv, I would be more convinced.
Kharkiv is 30km from the Russian border, just another 970km and they
would get to Poland. Then the same again and they would reach France.
Also, I think it is becoming clearer that drones/robots are the
future, not battle harden soldiers.
Indeed. Ukraine has produced 1.1m FPV drones, and the Russians 1.3m. How
many do our army have?
It's not just that the Russian soldiers that are battle-hardened. They
now know how to fight.
On 02/01/2025 12:47, GB wrote:
Nearly 3 years after the main Russo-Ukraine war began, and after 1m
casualties, it looks like the Ukrainians will be pressured into
accepting an unsatisfactory peace.
Back in 2022, the question was raised on this NG whether the
Ukrainians should simply capitulate? Any thoughts on that now?
You'd have thought that Europe would have spent the last 3 years
arming up like mad, but even that hasn't happened.
Arming which European countries? The only European countries that are
scared of Russia are former members of the Soviet Union, and I doubt
the more peripheral ones really need to worry.
On Thu, Jan 02 2025, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
On 02/01/2025 12:47, GB wrote:
Nearly 3 years after the main Russo-Ukraine war began, and after 1m
casualties, it looks like the Ukrainians will be pressured into
accepting an unsatisfactory peace.
Back in 2022, the question was raised on this NG whether the
Ukrainians should simply capitulate? Any thoughts on that now?
You'd have thought that Europe would have spent the last 3 years
arming up like mad, but even that hasn't happened.
Arming which European countries? The only European countries that are
scared of Russia are former members of the Soviet Union, and I doubt
the more peripheral ones really need to worry.
I think Finland are rather worried hence their rush to NATO but I
suppose there were part of Russia but rather longer ago.
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