Apparently they are planning to do this and move completely digital.
Are there any legal implications in this? I wonder, for example,
whether it is discrimination against older people or disabled people
for whom digital passes wouldn't really be a practical option?
On 17/01/2025 13:20, Martin Harran wrote:
Apparently they are planning to do this and move completely digital.
Are there any legal implications in this? I wonder, for example,
whether it is discrimination against older people or disabled people
for whom digital passes wouldn't really be a practical option?
I'm an "older person".
On 17/01/2025 17:43, Allan wrote:
On 17/01/2025 13:20, Martin Harran wrote:
Apparently they are planning to do this and move completely digital.
Are there any legal implications in this? I wonder, for example,
whether it is discrimination against older people or disabled people
for whom digital passes wouldn't really be a practical option?
I'm an "older person".
I was at a party with a group of ex-pats, none under 70, where much of
the talk was about VPNs and other fairly sophisticated technology.
Apparently they are planning to do this and move completely digital.
Are there any legal implications in this? I wonder, for example,
whether it is discrimination against older people or disabled people
for whom digital passes wouldn't really be a practical option?
On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 17:43:01 +0000, Allan <invalid@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
On 17/01/2025 13:20, Martin Harran wrote:
Apparently they are planning to do this and move completely digital.
Are there any legal implications in this? I wonder, for example,
whether it is discrimination against older people or disabled people
for whom digital passes wouldn't really be a practical option?
I'm an "older person". I really like digital passes, I hate paper. I
loose paper, I can't easily magnify paper. I can back up my electronic
pass on one or two devices, I can enlarge it on screen to make it
whatever size I want to read it with my crap "does go to Specsavers"
eyesight.
I'm sure I'm not representative of the majority, but please stop using
"older people" as a block vote of the apparently technologically
incapable to make your point.
I am in my 70s and highly technologically literate having done an
Applied Computing degree in my late 50s and a Masters in Computing in
my 60s so I am well aware that some older people are very competent in
this stuff. IME, however, older people generally tend to be less
switched on to this sort of thing as you more or less admit when you
state that you're sure you're not representative of the majority.
I find it interesting that you express annoyance with my reference to
older people as a demographic group but don't show any annoyance
about me referring to disabled people as one.
On 17/01/2025 17:43, Allan wrote:
On 17/01/2025 13:20, Martin Harran wrote:
Apparently they are planning to do this and move completely digital.
Are there any legal implications in this? I wonder, for example,
whether it is discrimination against older people or disabled people
for whom digital passes wouldn't really be a practical option?
I'm an "older person".
I was at a party with a group of ex-pats, none under 70, where much of
the talk was about VPNs and other fairly sophisticated technology.
On Sat, 18 Jan 2025 13:04:30 +0000, "Les. Hayward"
<les@nospam.invalid> wrote:
I also understand the stuff at the age of 81. It is not the technology
in my case, just that I find the increasing requirements for people to >>carry a ruddy phone all the time very annoying. The only time I carry
one (and it is a very basic device) is for emergency use e.g. a
breakdown if out for a drive.
My main problem is the size of the keyboard :(
Le 17/01/2025 à 18:05, GB a écrit :
On 17/01/2025 17:43, Allan wrote:
On 17/01/2025 13:20, Martin Harran wrote:
Apparently they are planning to do this and move completely digital.
Are there any legal implications in this? I wonder, for example,
whether it is discrimination against older people or disabled people
for whom digital passes wouldn't really be a practical option?
I'm an "older person".
I was at a party with a group of ex-pats, none under 70, where much of
the talk was about VPNs and other fairly sophisticated technology.
Aren't expats just immigrants who refuse to learn the local language?
Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> wrote:
Apparently they are planning to do this and move completely digital.
Are there any legal implications in this? I wonder, for example,
whether it is discrimination against older people or disabled people
for whom digital passes wouldn't really be a practical option?
What Ryanair say and what they do are different things - they always like >their name in the headlines.
They don't seem to have published details of how this will work in practice. >For example, how will it work for children who don't have a phone?
What if your battery is flat, perhaps because your flight was delayed?
I think we'd need to see the implementation details before we could make any >judgement as to whether there's a case for discrimination.
On 18/01/2025 12:41, Martin Harran wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 17:43:01 +0000, Allan <invalid@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
On 17/01/2025 13:20, Martin Harran wrote:
Apparently they are planning to do this and move completely
digital. Are there any legal implications in this? I wonder, for
example, whether it is discrimination against older people or
disabled people for whom digital passes wouldn't really be a
practical option?
I'm an "older person". I really like digital passes, I hate
paper. I loose paper, I can't easily magnify paper. I can back
up my electronic pass on one or two devices, I can enlarge it on
screen to make it whatever size I want to read it with my crap
"does go to Specsavers" eyesight.
I'm sure I'm not representative of the majority, but please stop
using "older people" as a block vote of the apparently
technologically incapable to make your point.
I am in my 70s and highly technologically literate having done an
Applied Computing degree in my late 50s and a Masters in Computing
in my 60s so I am well aware that some older people are very
competent in this stuff. IME, however, older people generally tend
to be less switched on to this sort of thing as you more or less
admit when you state that you're sure you're not representative of
the majority.
I find it interesting that you express annoyance with my reference
to older people as a demographic group but don't show any annoyance
about me referring to disabled people as one.
I also understand the stuff at the age of 81. It is not the
technology in my case, just that I find the increasing requirements
for people to carry a ruddy phone all the time very annoying. The
only time I carry one (and it is a very basic device) is for
emergency use e.g. a breakdown if out for a drive.
On Sat, 18 Jan 2025 13:04:30 +0000 "Les. Hayward" <les@nospam.invalid>
wrote:
On 18/01/2025 12:41, Martin Harran wrote:I agree one hundred percent with that. I suppose I can take a photo of
On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 17:43:01 +0000, Allan <invalid@invalid.invalid>I also understand the stuff at the age of 81. It is not the technology
wrote:
On 17/01/2025 13:20, Martin Harran wrote:I am in my 70s and highly technologically literate having done an
Apparently they are planning to do this and move completely
digital. Are there any legal implications in this? I wonder, for
example, whether it is discrimination against older people or
disabled people for whom digital passes wouldn't really be a
practical option?
I'm an "older person". I really like digital passes, I hate paper.
I loose paper, I can't easily magnify paper. I can back up my
electronic pass on one or two devices, I can enlarge it on screen to
make it whatever size I want to read it with my crap "does go to
Specsavers" eyesight.
I'm sure I'm not representative of the majority, but please stop
using "older people" as a block vote of the apparently
technologically incapable to make your point.
Applied Computing degree in my late 50s and a Masters in Computing in
my 60s so I am well aware that some older people are very competent
in this stuff. IME, however, older people generally tend to be less
switched on to this sort of thing as you more or less admit when you
state that you're sure you're not representative of the majority.
I find it interesting that you express annoyance with my reference to
older people as a demographic group but don't show any annoyance
about me referring to disabled people as one.
in my case, just that I find the increasing requirements for people to
carry a ruddy phone all the time very annoying. The only time I carry
one (and it is a very basic device) is for emergency use e.g. a
breakdown if out for a drive.
my boarding pass, in fact that is probably what I will do when I fly to Germany in a couple of months. but I am already annoyed with the
airline's assumption that I know precisely what to do with a digital
ticket. I don't, and I will have to ask them. If I can find a way to
contact somebody, that is.
On Sat, 18 Jan 2025 16:29:53 +0000, Ottavio Caruso <ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com> wrote:abroad.html
Le 17/01/2025 à 18:05, GB a écrit :
On 17/01/2025 17:43, Allan wrote:Aren't expats just immigrants who refuse to learn the local language?
On 17/01/2025 13:20, Martin Harran wrote:
Apparently they are planning to do this and move completely digital. >>>>> Are there any legal implications in this? I wonder, for example,I'm an "older person".
whether it is discrimination against older people or disabled people >>>>> for whom digital passes wouldn't really be a practical option?
I was at a party with a group of ex-pats, none under 70, where much of
the talk was about VPNs and other fairly sophisticated technology.
...Then you might enjoy this article by Paul Theroux in the New York
Times.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/05/opinion/america-expat-living-
If you don't have a subscription, try https://archive.ph/pEOwh
FWIW my rough and ready distinction between an immigrant and an expat is
that the latter can go home again any time they want.
On Sun, 19 Jan 2025 16:45:24 +0000, Davey wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jan 2025 13:04:30 +0000 "Les. Hayward"
<les@nospam.invalid> wrote:
On 18/01/2025 12:41, Martin Harran wrote:I agree one hundred percent with that. I suppose I can take a photo
On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 17:43:01 +0000, AllanI also understand the stuff at the age of 81. It is not the
<invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 17/01/2025 13:20, Martin Harran wrote:I am in my 70s and highly technologically literate having done an
Apparently they are planning to do this and move completely
digital. Are there any legal implications in this? I wonder,
for example, whether it is discrimination against older people
or disabled people for whom digital passes wouldn't really be a
practical option?
I'm an "older person". I really like digital passes, I hate
paper. I loose paper, I can't easily magnify paper. I can back
up my electronic pass on one or two devices, I can enlarge it
on screen to make it whatever size I want to read it with my
crap "does go to Specsavers" eyesight.
I'm sure I'm not representative of the majority, but please stop
using "older people" as a block vote of the apparently
technologically incapable to make your point.
Applied Computing degree in my late 50s and a Masters in
Computing in my 60s so I am well aware that some older people
are very competent in this stuff. IME, however, older people
generally tend to be less switched on to this sort of thing as
you more or less admit when you state that you're sure you're
not representative of the majority.
I find it interesting that you express annoyance with my
reference to older people as a demographic group but don't show
any annoyance about me referring to disabled people as one.
technology in my case, just that I find the increasing
requirements for people to carry a ruddy phone all the time very
annoying. The only time I carry one (and it is a very basic
device) is for emergency use e.g. a breakdown if out for a drive.
of my boarding pass, in fact that is probably what I will do when I
fly to Germany in a couple of months. but I am already annoyed with
the airline's assumption that I know precisely what to do with a
digital ticket. I don't, and I will have to ask them. If I can find
a way to contact somebody, that is.
Some QR codes are dynamic and can't be snapshotted
I have no way of using QR codes, so that means nothing to me. I have no
idea why I would be interested in a QR code, so I am not.
See above, re: "I am already annoyed with the airline's assumption that
I know precisely what to do with a digital ticket."
When I last flew, they were just coming in as 'a thing', but good old
paper tickets were still useable.
And I don't believe that I am the only person in this situation.
On 19/01/2025 23:06, Davey wrote:
I have no way of using QR codes, so that means nothing to me. I
have no idea why I would be interested in a QR code, so I am not.
See above, re: "I am already annoyed with the airline's assumption
that I know precisely what to do with a digital ticket."
When I last flew, they were just coming in as 'a thing', but good
old paper tickets were still useable.
And I don't believe that I am the only person in this situation.
I'm sure you are not, and if airlines really insist on e-tickets they
may well lost custom.
I can use e-tickets but always print out a copy if I can. For the
simple reason that the printed ticket doesn't depend on my phone
being sufficiently charged, network-connected, and fully operational.
Apparently they are planning to do this and move completely digital.
Are there any legal implications in this? I wonder, for example,
whether it is discrimination against older people or disabled people
for whom digital passes wouldn't really be a practical option?
On 19/01/2025 23:06, Davey wrote:
I have no way of using QR codes, so that means nothing to me. I have noI'm sure you are not, and if airlines really insist on e-tickets they
idea why I would be interested in a QR code, so I am not.
See above, re: "I am already annoyed with the airline's assumption that
I know precisely what to do with a digital ticket."
When I last flew, they were just coming in as 'a thing', but good old
paper tickets were still useable.
And I don't believe that I am the only person in this situation.
may well lost custom.
I can use e-tickets but always print out a copy if I can. For the
simple reason that the printed ticket doesn't depend on my phone being >sufficiently charged, network-connected, and fully operational.
In message <66mkojp508uep4dah2jler07f0rlq83dq4@4ax.com>, at 13:20:05
on Fri, 17 Jan 2025, Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> remarked: >Apparently they are planning to do this and move completely digital.
Are there any legal implications in this? I wonder, for example,
whether it is discrimination against older people or disabled people
for whom digital passes wouldn't really be a practical option?
All terribly fascinating. Last year I flew with Ryanair twice, and
paid extra for check-in at the aiport, because I didn't want to have
to track the other ways to do it (and risk leaving a bit of paper or important email, at home).
In both cases I went to the desk specifically allocated to people
doing this thing, and both times they started by asking me "can I see
your boarding pass please".
No No No FFS NO! I'm here to collect a boarding pass.
In any event, the quickest way through security and at the boarding
gate, is to have a passport with a paper boarding pass tucked in. If
they want people to stop, get out their phone, log in, find the
boarding pass, it'll cripple the throughput at both.
So why do people fly with airlines that treat them this way? Does
perceived price really trump being treated fairly, decently and within
the relevant laws?
FWIW my rough and ready distinction between an immigrant and an expat
is that the latter can go home again any time they want.
Le 19/01/2025 à 13:42, Nick Odell a écrit :
FWIW my rough and ready distinction between an immigrant and an expat
is that the latter can go home again any time they want.
What is "home"? Just your home country? I can go back to Italy whenever
I want. Does it make me an expat or am I still an immigrant?
Le 19/01/2025 à 13:42, Nick Odell a écrit :
FWIW my rough and ready distinction between an immigrant and an expat
is that the latter can go home again any time they want.
What is "home"? Just your home country? I can go back to Italy whenever
I want. Does it make me an expat or am I still an immigrant?
If I am an expat, can I do away with speaking the local language?
gate, is to have a passport with a paper boarding pass tucked in. If
they want people to stop, get out their phone, log in, find the boarding >pass, it'll cripple the throughput at both.
This is all part of the process of "The Enshitification of >Everything"((C)Cory Doctorow) and Ryanair seem to be streets ahead in...
the game.
So why do people fly with airlines that treat them this way? Does
perceived price really trump being treated fairly, decently and within
the relevant laws?
On Mon, 20 Jan 2025 15:32:52 +0000, Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca> wrote:
So why do people fly with airlines that treat them this way? Does
perceived price really trump being treated fairly, decently and within
the relevant laws?
I've managed to get away with only ever using Ryanair once, but that one
time was because they were the only airline doing the route I wanted to take >(Stansted to Montpellier).
Which is also another reason for sometimes preferring budget airlines -
they have a reputation for flying into small, out-of-the-way airports
that are, at best, only in the general vicinity of the city that they
are named after, but that can often be an advantage if you don't
actually need to head into the city centre.
On Mon, 20 Jan 2025 14:32:02 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <66mkojp508uep4dah2jler07f0rlq83dq4@4ax.com>, at 13:20:05
on Fri, 17 Jan 2025, Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> remarked:
Apparently they are planning to do this and move completely digital.
Are there any legal implications in this? I wonder, for example,
whether it is discrimination against older people or disabled people
for whom digital passes wouldn't really be a practical option?
All terribly fascinating. Last year I flew with Ryanair twice, and
paid extra for check-in at the aiport, because I didn't want to have
to track the other ways to do it (and risk leaving a bit of paper or
important email, at home).
In both cases I went to the desk specifically allocated to people
doing this thing, and both times they started by asking me "can I see
your boarding pass please".
No No No FFS NO! I'm here to collect a boarding pass.
In any event, the quickest way through security and at the boarding
gate, is to have a passport with a paper boarding pass tucked in. If
they want people to stop, get out their phone, log in, find the
boarding pass, it'll cripple the throughput at both.
I hope you claimed back the extra you had paid for physical check-in,
when they could not manage it?
In message <0lrsoj1a8ioehelfpp2c3r5jrm0aktajjj@4ax.com>, at 16:07:51 on
Mon, 20 Jan 2025, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
[quoted text muted]
Agreed.
[quoted text muted]
That's an urban myth which only ever applied to handful of major city destinations, but hey - makes good clickbait.
On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 12:10:17 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:
In message <caqsojde21jssv2vab95bresp1toso3mgg@4ax.com>, at 15:32:52 on >>Mon, 20 Jan 2025, Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca> remarked:
This is all part of the process of "The Enshitification of >>>Everything"((C)Cory Doctorow) and Ryanair seem to be streets ahead in...
the game.
So why do people fly with airlines that treat them this way? Does >>>perceived price really trump being treated fairly, decently and within >>>the relevant laws?
Most often because only those airlines fly between the airports the >>passenger wants.
Or the alternative is a flight which is much more expensive (I'm booking >>one today where it's £150ea on EasyJet, £250ea on BA) To some extent I >>can use the £200 saved to mitigate the pain, although BA is almost as
bad as EasyJet nowadays.
For the last 15 years (except during Covid) we have flown twice per
year Dublin to Bristol return [1]. We have a choice of Aer Lingus or
Ryanair, both have several flights daily in each direction at broadly
similar times, morning, afternoon, evening. As a retired couple
visiting family we are very flexible in our times so go with the
cheapest option except early morning to Bristol, late evening to
Dublin. Every time we have flown, I have priced both airlines and
Ryanair has always come out cheapest, usually €50-100 but a couple of
times more than that, even allowing for sitting together and luggage
charges. I see no advantage whatsoever in flying with Aer LIngus and
have never had a problem with Ryanair so we have always gone with
them.
Ryanair are now the biggest airline in Europe flying millions of
passengers every year so there are clearly many people happy with
their service.
On Sun, 19 Jan 2025 13:42:16 +0000, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jan 2025 16:29:53 +0000, Ottavio Caruso
<ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com> wrote:
Le 17/01/2025 à 18:05, GB a écrit :
On 17/01/2025 17:43, Allan wrote:
On 17/01/2025 13:20, Martin Harran wrote:
I'm an "older person".
Apparently they are planning to do this and move completely
digital. Are there any legal implications in this? I wonder, for
example, whether it is discrimination against older people or
disabled people for whom digital passes wouldn't really be a
practical option?
I was at a party with a group of ex-pats, none under 70, where much
of the talk was about VPNs and other fairly sophisticated
technology.
Aren't expats just immigrants who refuse to learn the local
language?
...Then you might enjoy this article by Paul Theroux in the New York
Times.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/05/opinion/america-expat-living-
abroad.html
If you don't have a subscription, try https://archive.ph/pEOwh
FWIW my rough and ready distinction between an immigrant and an expat
is that the latter can go home again any time they want.
Well lets see how Richard Tice MP gets defined now he is splitting his
time between the UK and Dubai.
On 16:19 19 Jan 2025, Jethro_uk said:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2025 13:42:16 +0000, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jan 2025 16:29:53 +0000, Ottavio Caruso
<ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com> wrote:
Le 17/01/2025 à 18:05, GB a écrit :
On 17/01/2025 17:43, Allan wrote:Aren't expats just immigrants who refuse to learn the local language?
On 17/01/2025 13:20, Martin Harran wrote:
I'm an "older person".
Apparently they are planning to do this and move completely
digital. Are there any legal implications in this? I wonder, for >>>>>>> example, whether it is discrimination against older people or
disabled people for whom digital passes wouldn't really be a
practical option?
I was at a party with a group of ex-pats, none under 70, where much
of the talk was about VPNs and other fairly sophisticated
technology.
...Then you might enjoy this article by Paul Theroux in the New York
Times.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/05/opinion/america-expat-living-
abroad.html
If you don't have a subscription, try https://archive.ph/pEOwh
FWIW my rough and ready distinction between an immigrant and an expat
is that the latter can go home again any time they want.
Well lets see how Richard Tice MP gets defined now he is splitting his
time between the UK and Dubai.
No amount of video conferencing is going to overcome his lack of
presence in his constituency.
Nor will his journalist wife hear many one-on-one Westminster whispers.
This arrangement won't last long.
On 2025-01-22, Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 12:10:17 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:
In message <caqsojde21jssv2vab95bresp1toso3mgg@4ax.com>, at 15:32:52 on
Mon, 20 Jan 2025, Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca> remarked:
This is all part of the process of "The Enshitification of...
Everything"((C)Cory Doctorow) and Ryanair seem to be streets ahead in
the game.
So why do people fly with airlines that treat them this way? Does
perceived price really trump being treated fairly, decently and within >>>> the relevant laws?
Most often because only those airlines fly between the airports the
passenger wants.
Or the alternative is a flight which is much more expensive (I'm booking >>> one today where it's £150ea on EasyJet, £250ea on BA) To some extent I >>> can use the £200 saved to mitigate the pain, although BA is almost as
bad as EasyJet nowadays.
For the last 15 years (except during Covid) we have flown twice per
year Dublin to Bristol return [1]. We have a choice of Aer Lingus or
Ryanair, both have several flights daily in each direction at broadly
similar times, morning, afternoon, evening. As a retired couple
visiting family we are very flexible in our times so go with the
cheapest option except early morning to Bristol, late evening to
Dublin. Every time we have flown, I have priced both airlines and
Ryanair has always come out cheapest, usually €50-100 but a couple of
times more than that, even allowing for sitting together and luggage
charges. I see no advantage whatsoever in flying with Aer LIngus and
have never had a problem with Ryanair so we have always gone with
them.
Ryanair are now the biggest airline in Europe flying millions of
passengers every year so there are clearly many people happy with
their service.
That is an unsafe assumption. I'd suggest that perhaps instead the explanation is that that for flights, most people prioritise price
over almost everything else.
Well lets see how Richard Tice MP gets defined now he is splitting his
time between the UK and Dubai.
No amount of video conferencing is going to overcome his lack of
presence in his constituency.
Nigel Farage seems to be doing OK
On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 12:11:45 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <0lrsoj1a8ioehelfpp2c3r5jrm0aktajjj@4ax.com>, at 16:07:51 on
Mon, 20 Jan 2025, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
[quoted text muted]
Agreed.
[quoted text muted]
That's an urban myth which only ever applied to handful of major city
destinations, but hey - makes good clickbait.
Have you flown from London Oxford ?
On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 18:04:35 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens
<jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2025-01-22, Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 12:10:17 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:
In message <caqsojde21jssv2vab95bresp1toso3mgg@4ax.com>, at 15:32:52 on >>>>Mon, 20 Jan 2025, Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca> remarked:
This is all part of the process of "The Enshitification of >>>>>Everything"((C)Cory Doctorow) and Ryanair seem to be streets ahead in >>>>>the game....
So why do people fly with airlines that treat them this way? Does >>>>>perceived price really trump being treated fairly, decently and within >>>>>the relevant laws?
Most often because only those airlines fly between the airports the >>>>passenger wants.
Or the alternative is a flight which is much more expensive (I'm booking >>>>one today where it's £150ea on EasyJet, £250ea on BA) To some extent I >>>>can use the £200 saved to mitigate the pain, although BA is almost as >>>>bad as EasyJet nowadays.
For the last 15 years (except during Covid) we have flown twice per
year Dublin to Bristol return [1]. We have a choice of Aer Lingus or
Ryanair, both have several flights daily in each direction at broadly
similar times, morning, afternoon, evening. As a retired couple
visiting family we are very flexible in our times so go with the
cheapest option except early morning to Bristol, late evening to
Dublin. Every time we have flown, I have priced both airlines and
Ryanair has always come out cheapest, usually €50-100 but a couple of
times more than that, even allowing for sitting together and luggage
charges. I see no advantage whatsoever in flying with Aer LIngus and
have never had a problem with Ryanair so we have always gone with
them.
Ryanair are now the biggest airline in Europe flying millions of
passengers every year so there are clearly many people happy with
their service.
That is an unsafe assumption.
How many people do you know who have flown Ryanair and how many have complained about them? In my case, the first answer is quite a few and
the second answer is none.
On Thu, 23 Jan 2025 14:47:56 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens
<jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2025-01-23, Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 18:04:35 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens >>><jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2025-01-22, Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 12:10:17 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:
In message <caqsojde21jssv2vab95bresp1toso3mgg@4ax.com>, at 15:32:52 on >>>>>>Mon, 20 Jan 2025, Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca> remarked:
This is all part of the process of "The Enshitification of >>>>>>>Everything"((C)Cory Doctorow) and Ryanair seem to be streets ahead in >>>>>>>the game....
So why do people fly with airlines that treat them this way? Does >>>>>>>perceived price really trump being treated fairly, decently and within >>>>>>>the relevant laws?
Most often because only those airlines fly between the airports the >>>>>>passenger wants.
Or the alternative is a flight which is much more expensive (I'm booking >>>>>>one today where it's £150ea on EasyJet, £250ea on BA) To some extent I >>>>>>can use the £200 saved to mitigate the pain, although BA is almost as >>>>>>bad as EasyJet nowadays.
For the last 15 years (except during Covid) we have flown twice per
year Dublin to Bristol return [1]. We have a choice of Aer Lingus or >>>>> Ryanair, both have several flights daily in each direction at broadly >>>>> similar times, morning, afternoon, evening. As a retired couple
visiting family we are very flexible in our times so go with the
cheapest option except early morning to Bristol, late evening to
Dublin. Every time we have flown, I have priced both airlines and
Ryanair has always come out cheapest, usually €50-100 but a couple of >>>>> times more than that, even allowing for sitting together and luggage >>>>> charges. I see no advantage whatsoever in flying with Aer LIngus and >>>>> have never had a problem with Ryanair so we have always gone with
them.
Ryanair are now the biggest airline in Europe flying millions of
passengers every year so there are clearly many people happy with
their service.
That is an unsafe assumption.
How many people do you know who have flown Ryanair and how many have
complained about them? In my case, the first answer is quite a few and
the second answer is none.
A fair few, and almost all of them. Including me.
Perhaps I and other travellersI know are just lucky travellers then
Out of curiosity, what were typical reasons for the complaints?
On 2025-01-23, Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jan 2025 14:47:56 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens >><jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2025-01-23, Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> wrote:
How many people do you know who have flown Ryanair and how many have
complained about them? In my case, the first answer is quite a few and >>>> the second answer is none.
A fair few, and almost all of them. Including me.
Perhaps I and other travellersI know are just lucky travellers then
Very lucky. Ryanair is consistently rated very badly by travellers,
e.g. in Which? surveys it is almost always last or second from last,
and they rank very highly in number of complaints received.
On Thu, 23 Jan 2025 15:41:40 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens
<jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
Very lucky. Ryanair is consistently rated very badly by travellers,
e.g. in Which? surveys it is almost always last or second from last,
and they rank very highly in number of complaints received.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49433807https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/ryanair-and-the-worst-uk-airlines-a6GPA3E276me
Out of curiosity, what were typical reasons for the complaints?
The usual.
Hand waving noted.
In message <vmt23h$12g65$11@dont-email.me>, at 09:28:17 on Thu, 23 Jan
2025, Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> remarked:
Well lets see how Richard Tice MP gets defined now he is splitting
his time between the UK and Dubai.
No amount of video conferencing is going to overcome his lack of
presence in his constituency.
Nigel Farage seems to be doing OK
Mad Nad seemed to get away without appearing in her constituency for
about two years (allegedly).
The usual. You don't expect top tier customer service from a budget
airline, but it would be nice if the staff didn't act like they
actively hate you.
Frequently-changing rules on baggage and pedantic
implementation of them. Forcing passengers to re-pack their lugagge
in the check-in queue to humiliate them.
"Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote in message news:slrnvp4opk.lvpa.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu...
The usual. You don't expect top tier customer service from a budget
airline, but it would be nice if the staff didn't act like they
actively hate you.
Ryanair can't buy aeroplanes cheaper than anyone else;they cant buy
aviation fuel any cheaper than anyone else. The only way they can
compete is by paying lower airport charges, and lower wages.
And because people like you (the ones they appear to hate) insist
on paying the lowest possible prices to fly anywhere, in order to
remain competitive, Ryanair will pay the lowest possible wages
as well. And you expect them to smile in addition?
And if they treat the passengers like that, what sort of rules and regulations do you think they impose, on their happy go-lucky staff ?
Week in and week out. Whereas for the lucky passengers, its only a
couple of hours at most.
On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 17:58:32 +0000, Pamela wrote:
On 16:19 19 Jan 2025, Jethro_uk said:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2025 13:42:16 +0000, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jan 2025 16:29:53 +0000, Ottavio Caruso
<ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com> wrote:
Le 17/01/2025 à 18:05, GB a écrit :
On 17/01/2025 17:43, Allan wrote:Aren't expats just immigrants who refuse to learn the local
On 17/01/2025 13:20, Martin Harran wrote:
I'm an "older person".
Apparently they are planning to do this and move completely
digital. Are there any legal implications in this? I wonder,
for example, whether it is discrimination against older people >>>>>>>> or disabled people for whom digital passes wouldn't really be a >>>>>>>> practical option?
I was at a party with a group of ex-pats, none under 70, where
much of the talk was about VPNs and other fairly sophisticated
technology.
language?
...Then you might enjoy this article by Paul Theroux in the New
York Times.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/05/opinion/america-expat-living-
abroad.html
If you don't have a subscription, try https://archive.ph/pEOwh
FWIW my rough and ready distinction between an immigrant and an
expat is that the latter can go home again any time they want.
Well lets see how Richard Tice MP gets defined now he is splitting
his time between the UK and Dubai.
No amount of video conferencing is going to overcome his lack of
presence in his constituency.
Nigel Farage seems to be doing OK
Nor will his journalist wife hear many one-on-one Westminster
whispers.
Who needs facts for newspaper stories ? Especially the sort she
writes.
On Thu, 23 Jan 2025 17:50:34 -0000, "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com>
wrote:
"Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote in message >>news:slrnvp4opk.lvpa.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu...
The usual. You don't expect top tier customer service from a budget
airline, but it would be nice if the staff didn't act like they
actively hate you.
Ryanair can't buy aeroplanes cheaper than anyone else;they cant buy >>aviation fuel any cheaper than anyone else. The only way they can
compete is by paying lower airport charges, and lower wages.
You seem to have missed a few other things like using steps instead of skybridges, cutting out in-flight amenities, generating on-board
income, using gates that are cheaper because they are farthest from
the terminal, only using one type of aircraft and, possibly most
significant of all, running an efficient operation to minimise
turnaround times and have their planes less time on the ground.
And because people like you (the ones they appear to hate) insist
on paying the lowest possible prices to fly anywhere, in order to
remain competitive, Ryanair will pay the lowest possible wages
as well.
Have you any evidence to back up that claim that Ryanair pay lower
wages than any other airilens?
On 2025-01-23, billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:
"Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote in message
news:slrnvp4opk.lvpa.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu...
The usual. You don't expect top tier customer service from a budget
airline, but it would be nice if the staff didn't act like they
actively hate you.
Ryanair can't buy aeroplanes cheaper than anyone else;they cant buy
aviation fuel any cheaper than anyone else. The only way they can
compete is by paying lower airport charges, and lower wages.
And because people like you (the ones they appear to hate) insist
on paying the lowest possible prices to fly anywhere, in order to
remain competitive, Ryanair will pay the lowest possible wages
as well. And you expect them to smile in addition?
Are those things that you just claimed about me true?
Or did you just make them up?
I'll give you a clue: it's the latter.
And if they treat the passengers like that, what sort of rules and
regulations do you think they impose, on their happy go-lucky staff ?
Week in and week out. Whereas for the lucky passengers, its only a
couple of hours at most.
So... you agree with me that RyanAir is bad?
On 09:28 23 Jan 2025, Jethro_uk said:
[quoted text muted]
I wonder if Tice and Oakshott intend to be tax exiles, spending less
than so many days in the UK.
"Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote in message news:slrnvp58np.lvpa.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu...
On 2025-01-23, billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:
"Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote in message
news:slrnvp4opk.lvpa.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu...
The usual. You don't expect top tier customer service from a budget
airline, but it would be nice if the staff didn't act like they
actively hate you.
Ryanair can't buy aeroplanes cheaper than anyone else;they cant buy
aviation fuel any cheaper than anyone else. The only way they can
compete is by paying lower airport charges, and lower wages.
And because people like you (the ones they appear to hate) insist
on paying the lowest possible prices to fly anywhere, in order to
remain competitive, Ryanair will pay the lowest possible wages
as well. And you expect them to smile in addition?
Are those things that you just claimed about me true?
Or did you just make them up?
Did you not just claim above that Ryanair staff act as if they actively
hated you ?
On 2025-01-24, billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:
"Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote in message
news:slrnvp58np.lvpa.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu...
On 2025-01-23, billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:
"Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote in message
news:slrnvp4opk.lvpa.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu...
The usual. You don't expect top tier customer service from a budget
airline, but it would be nice if the staff didn't act like they
actively hate you.
Ryanair can't buy aeroplanes cheaper than anyone else;they cant buy
aviation fuel any cheaper than anyone else. The only way they can
compete is by paying lower airport charges, and lower wages.
And because people like you (the ones they appear to hate) insist
on paying the lowest possible prices to fly anywhere, in order to
remain competitive, Ryanair will pay the lowest possible wages
as well. And you expect them to smile in addition?
Are those things that you just claimed about me true?
Or did you just make them up?
Did you not just claim above that Ryanair staff act as if they actively
hated you ?
Yes. What's your point? The false claims above that you made about me
do not follow from that statement.
"Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote in message news:slrnvp74au.lvpa.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu...
On 2025-01-24, billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:
"Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote in message
news:slrnvp58np.lvpa.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu...
On 2025-01-23, billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:
"Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote in message
news:slrnvp4opk.lvpa.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu...
The usual. You don't expect top tier customer service from a budget >>>>>> airline, but it would be nice if the staff didn't act like they
actively hate you.
Ryanair can't buy aeroplanes cheaper than anyone else;they cant buy
aviation fuel any cheaper than anyone else. The only way they can
compete is by paying lower airport charges, and lower wages.
And because people like you (the ones they appear to hate) insist
on paying the lowest possible prices to fly anywhere, in order to
remain competitive, Ryanair will pay the lowest possible wages
as well. And you expect them to smile in addition?
Are those things that you just claimed about me true?
Or did you just make them up?
Did you not just claim above that Ryanair staff act as if they actively
hated you ?
Yes. What's your point? The false claims above that you made about me
do not follow from that statement.
So do you expect them to smile or not ?
Yes or no ?
Because otherwise I can't see what you're complaining about.
On 2025-01-24, billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:
"Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote in message
news:slrnvp74au.lvpa.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu...
On 2025-01-24, billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:
"Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote in message
news:slrnvp58np.lvpa.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu...
On 2025-01-23, billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:
"Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote in message
news:slrnvp4opk.lvpa.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu...
The usual. You don't expect top tier customer service from a budget >>>>>>> airline, but it would be nice if the staff didn't act like they
actively hate you.
Ryanair can't buy aeroplanes cheaper than anyone else;they cant buy >>>>>> aviation fuel any cheaper than anyone else. The only way they can >>>>>> compete is by paying lower airport charges, and lower wages.
And because people like you (the ones they appear to hate) insist
on paying the lowest possible prices to fly anywhere, in order to
remain competitive, Ryanair will pay the lowest possible wages
as well. And you expect them to smile in addition?
Are those things that you just claimed about me true?
Or did you just make them up?
Did you not just claim above that Ryanair staff act as if they actively >>>> hated you ?
Yes. What's your point? The false claims above that you made about me
do not follow from that statement.
So do you expect them to smile or not ?
Yes or no ?
Because otherwise I can't see what you're complaining about.
You claimed "people like you insist on paying the lowest possible prices
to fly anywhere", and "you expect them to smile". Both of these claims
are false, and neither of them follow from anything I said. I must admit
I worry for you slightly if you think that anyone who isn't smiling at
you hates you.
On Fri, 24 Jan 2025 09:43:23 -0000, "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com>
wrote:
"Martin Harran" <martinharran@gmail.com> wrote in message >>news:f0f5pjplsfas6rvta00f7jd520ia7ujhs3@4ax.com...
On Thu, 23 Jan 2025 17:50:34 -0000, "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com>
wrote:
"Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote in message >>>>news:slrnvp4opk.lvpa.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu...
The usual. You don't expect top tier customer service from a budget
airline, but it would be nice if the staff didn't act like they
actively hate you.
Ryanair can't buy aeroplanes cheaper than anyone else;they cant buy >>>>aviation fuel any cheaper than anyone else. The only way they can >>>>compete is by paying lower airport charges, and lower wages.
You seem to have missed a few other things like using steps instead of
skybridges, cutting out in-flight amenities, generating on-board
income, using gates that are cheaper because they are farthest from
the terminal, only using one type of aircraft and, possibly most
significant of all, running an efficient operation to minimise
turnaround times and have their planes less time on the ground.
I also missed out possibly the most important one of all, Ryanair's
load factor of sometimes up to 97%. Meaning that their planes are typically >>packed like sardines - as are the overhead lockers; which also make
the job of the flight attendants even more stressful
And because people like you (the ones they appear to hate) insist
on paying the lowest possible prices to fly anywhere, in order to >>>>remain competitive, Ryanair will pay the lowest possible wages
as well.
Have you any evidence to back up that claim that Ryanair pay lower
wages than any other airilens?
They don't pay the lowest, that is true. That honour goes to EasyJet
but only because they fly into some "proper" airports near big cities
and so pay higher airport charges.
Ryanair recruit staff from over the whole of Europe, train them up in
Spain and employ them under all different sorts of contracts
to take advantage of the most advantageous local laws. And have
always discouraged unions. As a result they've had a number of strikes
and disputes down the years, over pay and working conditions
But quite possibly, as far as O'Leary is concerned, if they weren't
going on strike that would mean Ryanair must be paying them too much.
And he probably takes pride in the fact that Ryanair never pay
any of their employees *a single penny* more than they need to.
Its a business not a charity. Unlike in the early days perhaps,
As with passenger complaints this isn't "bad publicity" dreamed up
by the tabloid press. This is all part and parcel of the business
model. If the passengers and staff aren't always complaining
about something or other, it must mean you're treating them
too well; or simply paying them too much.
That's as accurate a measure of efficiency as any.
Nobody forces anyone to work for Ryanair; and by the same token they're
all perfectly free to stay back in Rumania, Bulgaria Poland or wherever >>twiddling their fingers on the dole. Those that can't do plumbing
at least.
In other words, you don't have any evidence, you're simply repeating
shit you have heard elsewhere.
On Sun, 26 Jan 2025 18:12:45 -0000, "michael adams" <mjadams25@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
OMG ... Michael Adams, talk about a voice from the past!
In other words, you don't have any evidence, you're simply repeating
shit you have heard elsewhere.
" you're simply repeating shit you have heard elsewhere."
So where eactly do you suggest I might "have heard this shit" ?
In the pub, waiting at a bus stop, in the queue in the
supermarket, where exactly ?
Which would be a bad idea for starters obviously; as nobody need >>necessarily believe me.
So lets just say I "read it" somewhere, instead.
Your reluctance to tell us where you heard it speaks volumes.
Which is handy where evidence is concerned, especially since copy
and paste was invented. As it now means a person can show the evidence
even to people who've apparently never even heard of the Internet, or >>Google
quote:
On Friday 24 June 2022, Ryanair cabin crew unions in Belgium, Portugal
and Spain announced a three-day strike over pay and working conditions.
Crews in France and Italy were expected to walk out over the weekend
while staff in Spain are set to strike on June 30 and July 1-2.
From the day before:
"Hundreds of British Airways workers at Heathrow Airport have voted to
go on strike over pay." https://www.britishaviationgroup.co.uk/knowledge/british-airways-heathrow-staff-back-summer-strikes-over-pay/
As they took the lead, does that mean BA are even worse than Ryanair?
And Aer Lingus pilots went on strike last summer, I guess they are
treated pretty badly too.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cql8nn1xv8yo
Presumably it wasn't simply as the result of "shit they'd heard
elsewhere" that the Irish Government no less, blocked Ryanair's
take-over bid for Aer Lingus the Semi- State Airline in 2009.
It was the The European Union's competition authority , not the Irish Government - do try to keep up, old chap.
https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0227/369828-eu-blocks-ryanair-takeover-deal-for-aer-lingus/
And it was about preventing a monopoly, SFA to do with how Ryanair
treat their employees.
But you haven't lost your ability to make assumptions and treat them
as fact.
It was the The European Union's competition authority , not the Irish
Government - do try to keep up, old chap.
https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0227/369828-eu-blocks-ryanair-takeover-deal-for-aer-lingus/
Well let's see what this "chap" has to say on the matter, shall we ?
This being Irish Transport Minister Leo Varadkar, who later went
on to become Taoiseach. But then the Irish Transport Minister,
what would he know ?
quote
"The Ryanair offer and at least the remedies that are being
reported are not sufficient in our view, so we won't support
their bid and, in addition, won't co-operate with their remedies
package," Transport Minister Leo Varadkar told journalists.
"The Commission will make its own decision, but we have given
our views and they are around connectivity, competition and
employment. We don't see any advantages for Ireland in what's
being proposed and we see very significant potential risks."
unquote
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/9754301/Irish-government-to-block-Ryanair-bid-for-Aer-Lingus.html?onwardjourney=584162_v1
And it was about preventing a monopoly, SFA to do with how Ryanair
treat their employees.
"we have given our views are around connectivity, competition and >>employment. We don't see any advantages for Ireland in what's
being proposed and we see very significant potential risks."
Transport Minister Leo Varadkar
Yes a monopoly to "screw" all Irish cabin crews and pilots.
Not at all what Varadkar said; as I recall it,
the only worry
concerning employment was the jobs that would be shed from the
seriously overstaffed Aer Lingus. BTW, monopoly prevention is meant
for *consumer protection*, nothing to do with improving the lot of
employees.
One of the great economies you and
others cite for Ryanair's profitability is faster turnaround times
at airports. So that rather than have them sitting on the tarmac
the planes are in the sky. So that say they make four trips a day
instead of three.
But this totally overlooks the fact that all planes have a finite
lifespan in terms of actual flying hours. With Ryanair coming from
a leasing background, we can be sure that just about the only
people on proper wages will be the maintenance staff; whether
contractors or not. There'll be no skimping there. But the fact remains >>that whether making three trips a day or four those planes can only
make the same number of trips between maintenance stops and over their >>entire lifetime
Perhaps you should try to have a word with Michael O'Leary to tell him
that his financial strategy for running a successful airline isn't
that great.
However, the same doesn't go for the cabin crew and the pilots
who are basically being worked to the bone. So that while crews
on other airlines are off down the walkways and into rest
rooms to take a break between flights with cleaning crews
doing all the work, Ryanair crews and pilots possibly don't leave
the planes at all. It's get one lot of passengers off, then out
with the buckets and sponges, wipe up all the sick and
clean the lavatories then on with the next lot. This is simply
because unlike with planes which need to be looked after, *staff
can be worked to the bone*, until they finally decide to leave
of their own accord. As there's always plenty more where
they come from. It would be interesting to know the average
age of Ryanair staff and the burnout rate compared with more
conventional airlines.
Yes, it would be useful to have some *facts* rather than your rants,
that's why I asked you originally for evidence to back up your claims
which you have been unable to produce.
However just like people who go on buying ò T shirts and ñ0
pairs of jeans despite the strong suspicion that for that price
they must be being made by 12 year olds working 60 hours a week
( whereas ø0 jeans are made by 14 year olds only working a
40 hour week) * for obvious reasons people who fly Ryanair
can't admit to themselves that their low fares are at the
cost of human exploitation and people being worked to the
bone for a couple of years.
WOW, that's some jump, even for you.
Its just easier to look the other way, isn't it ?
And indeed maybe people who are in a state of constant exhaustion
with nothing else to look forward to, really do give the impression
that they hate just about everything, and everybody.
I don't know exactly how many flights I have made with Ryanair over
the year, probably hundreds
and I don't recall ever, not even once,
getting the impression of staff hating hate just about everything, and everybody. FWIW, I have found as a general rule that people react to
how you treat them; I always treat service people with friendly
courtesy and generally get the same in return. I don't find Ryanair
employees different from any other group but maybe that's just me
On Mon, 27 Jan 2025 15:56:25 -0000, "billy bookcase" <billy@onon.com>
wrote:
"Martin Harran" <martinharran@gmail.com> wrote in message >>news:ka1fpjp30p1urvs4cqbc1b6ft3h5eim97m@4ax.com...
snip
But you haven't lost your ability to make assumptions and treat them
as fact.
[...]
So you are to be further congratulated, along with your benefactor Ryanair >>for your major contribution to global warming.
Neither have you lost your propensity for making daft accusations
about people who disagree with you. Thanks for reminding me why I long
ago gave up trying to have a rational discussion with you.
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